Starting QB 2019???

[skinsmania123]

10 hours ago, rumplestilskin said:

If that's dumb I don't know what smart is. Getting a top ten player in last year's draft that will play for free this year. All for pick 15. That's not dumb. We would have the position filled and go into the draft with a tighter list. Rosen is no slouch.

 Again I don't see it.  Rosen's passing statistics were near the bottom of NFL starters. He completed 55-56 percent of his passes I think at best.  He was very inconsistent. And I know, their OL had a lot of injuries last year.  And he was a rookie. But I don't want him.   He is on par with a lot of QB's the Skins have gone through over how many years? I have lost count.

 

  We could go through draft after draft of top 10 picks that were not successful in the NFL.   So we give up our 15th pick for a rookie contract?  I don't think you do that.  We have massive need in the secondary.  We need OL players ourselves.  We have ****, oft injured receivers.  No not this year. We have a lot of picks and I think we load up on a draft that has decent D players, O line players.  And of course we need a decent receiver.  The ones we have my gosh they are also always injured. 

 

You roll with McCoy and even Johnson and get your QB next year.  We are not even close and I don't care what Bruce Allen has to say about that.

[Skinsinparadise]

Watching a bit more of Rosen, I'd say what I like about him the best is his courage in the pocket (different point versus pocket presence where I think he's hit or miss), he rarely flinches.  He climbs the pocket well and has even a little Romo in him sometimes dodging pressure with nifty footwork.  He has an effortless delivery and throwing style which is fun to watch.  I get why draft geeks kept saying last year he's one of the most natural throwers they've seen in awhile.  I am sticking with his weakness is making too many bad decisions -- Eli like in that regard.   If they take him IMO you probably want a tall receiver who is a feisty type who can high point a ball and fight corners for contested balls in the air like Hakeem Butler.   Arm strength good but not great. 

 

He's is willing to let it fly and if you have the wrong receivers on the count IMO you can get burned some by his style.

 

I don't know if I trade a first rounder for him but if they did I'd get the logic.  2nd rounder to me is no brainer if they are convinced they aren't in love with a guy in the first or don't think they'd get said guy/guys.  IMO he's distinctly better and more talented than Colt.  But both worry me as to turnovers. 

 

[Bang]

If we make any sort of offer for Rosen, it better not be high. 
IF the cardinals are so colossally stupid as to be in this position, offer them squat. A fifth.

Or they can keep him on the roster while their wonderboy college coach drafts Murray.

 

This is mind boggling to me. 
how the hell does this Steve Keim idiot have a JOB if this is true?

Using a first round pick in a QB ..  a top TEN pick no less, represents an extremely high investment.

in the NFL,there is no more valuable commodity than a first round pick, and a top ten pick at that. Agreed? (Other than a bona-fide proven franchse QB)

to take a QB at #10 presumably it represents not only the value of the pick..  but more than a year's work scouting, interviewing, debating.. everything that goes in to making that pick is to ascertain to the closest degree that you've got the RIGHT guy.

Well, apparently drunken chipmunk Steve Keim decided that a season was all he needed to see to throw every single bit of it away.. AND fire the head coach he hired less than a year ago.

 

Now, I am going to also go out on a bit of a limb here and suggest that since drafting Rosen, they probably didn't expend as much energy scouting college Qbs last year... and so they are basically doing this on the say-so of a rookie head coach.

 

Please... next time you think OUR front office is a collection of fools, remember that it could be worse.

 

~Bang

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Bang said:

 

Please... next time you think OUR front office is a collection of fools, remember that it could be worse.

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Bang said:

If we make any sort of offer for Rosen, it better not be high. 
IF the cardinals are so colossally stupid as to be in this position, offer them squat. A fifth.

Or they can keep him on the roster while their wonderboy college coach drafts Murray.

 

 

As I am digesting the Rosen drill.  I am neutral on it for the moment, don't hate it don't love it.    My preference is to take someone in this draft.  But Rosen strikes me at the very least better than the prospects in the 2nd round or late in this draft.  Most draft geeks are screaming that Rosen is better than every QB in this draft sans Murray.  Not sure I agree with that. But the point is Rosen does have some hype.  Cards also already swallowed the signing bonus so you got him dirt cheap.  So doubting if they put him on the trade market we'd be the only bidder so its unlikely we can dictate the price.  Personally I wouldn't give up a first for him but it wouldn't shock me that it ends up being the price for him. 

 

 

On another note, this is what I was saying yesterday no way the Dolphins I think are getting trade value for him.  He will be on the open market.  I am not a Tannehill guy personally but I wouldn't be surprised if they consider chasing him. 

 

 

 

[Bang]

I never do care what 'longtime executives" and 'former" anythings have to say without a name attached.

after all, Bruce Allen is a "long time executive" and nobody here respects his opinion on anything.;

vinny ceratto is a 'long time exec" and 'former GM'.

 

 

Put my name on this.

If you hire a head coach and fire him after less than a year in the same year you draft a Qb at #10 and are ready to throw him out after 10 months on the say so of a college wonderboy head coach.. you are a TERRIBLE GM by definition. In context of what Keim has done here, he completely failed at his head coach and quarterback in the same season and wasted a top ten draft choice only to make another pick at the same position a year later, but thi time with the first overall pick.

Based on that, Steve Keim absolutely does not know what he is doing, and it doesn't matter to me if a 'former' whatever can't see it. The ONLY ting to save this is if Kingsbury and Murray win the Super Bowl within the next 2 or 3 years... or if it takes longer, multiple super bowls.

 

~Bang

[Skinsinparadise]

36 minutes ago, Bang said:

I never do care what 'longtime executives" and 'former" anythings have to say without a name attached.

after all, Bruce Allen is a "long time executive" and nobody here respects his opinion on anything.;

vinny ceratto is a 'long time exec" and 'former GM'.

 

 

I get the point but people rarely put their name publicly to slamming someone in Bruce's position.  Specific to Bruce, Mike Lombardi is willing to do it publicly -- and its amusing but still rare for someone to be that bold.  The fact that agents ranked him the least trustworthy and one of the least prepared GMs in the league -- those agents still weren't putting their names out there, I'd figure it would be suicidal for them to do so in terms of working with the Redskins.  Ditto whomever told the WP that Bruce and Dan are considered to be a bit of a laughingstock within ownership-personnel type.  I'd think no one would specifically put their name on that one and I get why. 

 

36 minutes ago, Bang said:

 

If you hire a head coach and fire him after less than a year in the same year you draft a Qb at #10 and are ready to throw him out after 10 months on the say so of a college wonderboy head coach.. you are a TERRIBLE GM by definition. In context of what Keim has done here, he completely failed at his head coach and quarterback in the same season and wasted a top ten draft choice only to make another pick at the same position a year later, but thi time with the first overall pick.

Based on that, Steve Keim absolutely does not know what he is doing, and it doesn't matter to me if a 'former' whatever can't see it. The ONLY ting to save this is if Kingsbury and Murray win the Super Bowl within the next 2 or 3 years... or if it takes longer, multiple super bowls.

 

~Bang

 

The sad thing with all of that the Cardinals sans last season has had a lot better run than the Redskins.  Breaking barriers multiple times as for W-L that Dan hasn't achieved even once.  But yeah agree firing a coach within one year looks dysfunctional.  I don't agree with your point on Rosen unless I am misreading you on it but get where you are coming from on it. I don't think the narrative is Rosen is a failure -- we got to get a new one now.   The vibe is Murray is a one of a kind special QB.  The best player in the draft.  Rosen who was the 4th QB taken in the last draft isn't that kind of special. 

[Nerm]

14 hours ago, sportjunkie07 said:

Rosen is damaged goods at this point. If the cardinals are trading him to draft murray there is no need to pay a premium for a 1 year qb whose team has already given up on him. 

 

Stay pat and see what falls to us. 

 

 

I would be wary of Rosen.  I wonder if there are personality issues with him.  On the other hand... Weren't Favre and Brees 1 year QBs that their teams had already given up on?

 

Edit: I was way off on Brees.  He played several years before being traded.

[rumplestilskin]

10 hours ago, Peregrine said:

Except his 1 year in the NFL was very poor, while granted that was on a poor team, thats now dinged his worth and put major doubts into whether hes a dud or not.  Anytime a team trades a player 1 year after drafting him because they want to upgrade the position, that screams to every other team that "We think hes terrible and made a huge mistake!", so any team then willing to give up about the same pick he was drafted with is really stupid.

I haven't seen any reviews of his first season being very poor and not even close to dud status. He went through rookie mistakes but so do many first year starters.  He also had many great moments and both Fitzgerald and Kirk had way better production when he replaced Bradford. Goff and Manning are two obvious examples of players that started rough and had a good second season. Furthermore the reason Arizona would be more inclined to replace Rosen with Murray is the new coach is installing a shotgun offense that is tailored to Murray's strengths. Not because they think Josh is terrible and made a huge mistake drafting him. I think he would be a steal at 15 simply because he would be basicly free for three years allowing us some cap relief from Smiths injury will loom for at least two more seasons. Giving up that pick is not easy but in our situation that's just the cost of the QB market if rumours are true that other teams are in on him. 

[The Consigliere]

5 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

Ya lost me at tanking the season..

Lol, you think this pile of manure is contending for anything other than the 1.01 in the 2020 draft? The 2020 draft is stacked, and at a lot of positions of need for us to boot. Stinking in 2019 is not only going to happen, it's crucial that it does happen to the nth degree.

 

As for Rosen, as usual, I just get the sense that a lot of you on the East Coast are totally unfamiliar with prospects that come out of the West Coast. When he came out of High School, he was getting Andrew Luck caliber love, basically the best high school QB to come around in more than 5 years. He didn't live up to the billing, in part because Mora Jr basically totally failed to turn UCLA into the powerhouse his recruiting classes suggested he might. Rosen was good, but never quite great at UCLA, and he got dinged up a lot, and he got into trouble immediately w/the hot tub incident etc. 

 

But, and it's a big but, there's a reason why the non-analytics first guys (and I am an analytics guy) had Rosen as the #1 QB to come out since Luck. He's ideal in a ton of ways, has all the tools you want and is a legit franchise QB in that 1.01 style. Nobody in the horrible '19 class is that, even though Kyler is an elite enigma. Rosen was and is the classic 1.01 Matt Ryan/Matthew Stafford type selection. My guy was Baker, everything about him screamed franchise QB except for HS pedigree, and the #'s said he was truly elite, but after Baker, I thought Rosen was probably the best QB to come out since Luck. Mahomes has blown that out of the water since, but I still view Rosen as a classic Matt Ryan type 4500 28-10 guy. If you can get that for a mid 1st, it's an easy yes. You NEVER get that for a mid first, that costs a pile of picks. Everyone seems to be forgetting that because he had an awful '18 (he did), not noting what he was in HS, College, what his skill set and tools are, and why the Cardinals were a total dumpster fire in '18. Think of this way, David Johnson sucked in '18 and Johnson is a top 3 RB in the league, Fitz had a middling year, and he's an old but smart as hell HOF, they basically had a totally incompetent OC, and HC, a bottom 3 OL in the league, and a rookie talent and a near 40 year old in Fitz as his WR, and a TE security blanket who had a crater year in Seals Jones. How is he having a good year w/that  garbage?

 

He will suck for us in '19 if we get him because we suck, but if we play our cards right, we could get real tangible value out of him by '20-'21-'22 on a very cheap contract, which is invaluable considering the situation our totally incompetent F.O. has left us in. 

[The Consigliere]

5 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I was at the Philly game and watched them get shutout in person.  I cant support a tank and risk seeing multiple games like that.  This "young talent" is same question I have, we keep hoping for best case scenario and get worst case scenario instead. 

 

Either way, we cant 4th preseason our way through the regular season and expect anything good to come of it, the picks wont be worth the further erosion of the fan base. Make or break offseason, I'm not in last chance mode but I know plenty that are.

 

Maybe it comes down to that. You attend games. I do not. I couldn't give less of a blank about the entertainment value of a game last fall or this coming fall, what I care about is that I'm 44 years old and the Redskins have been totally irrelevant since I was a high school senior in '92-'93. What is another year of manure to really actually turn this Titanic, or more accurately, Bismarck around? It's been freaking 25 years of horse bleep. You can't watch another year? It's already TWENTY FIVE. 

 

Admittedly, while my passion may have only declined by about 10-15% during the awful Petitbone/Norv years, the ensuing 20 years of total incompetence, and literally evil work of our F.O. since have killed off an additional 60-70% of my passion, so year to year does not impact me anymore. I saw Jets 3 Redskins 0 25 years ago, well some of it, you could only watch so much of that game before your eyes started bleeding. All I want is hope, and I haven't had any to speak of since RGIII was drafted, and the honeymoon period with McCloughan when the F.O. dangled competence in front of us, before ripping it quickly away (kind of like hiring, then totally ignoring Richard Thaler 15 years ago). 

[The Consigliere]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I

 

So they have to at least win to keep people in the fold and be a little interesting as to being spoken about nationally.   Right now this team is mega yawn nationally. 

No offense, but it's not "right now," we haven't been relevant to ANYONE since 1992 other than as a joke regarding whatever latest incompetent, or cynically evil thing Snyder might have done during the previous week, otherwise we are totally and completely ignored. We have been as irrelevant since 1993, as we viewed the Detroit Lions and St. Louis Cardinals as irrelevant in the 1980's. It's that bad. Another year is irrelevant, it's 25 years of bad road at this point. Quoting whomever sang or said that. Can't remember. 

4 hours ago, skinsmania123 said:

 Again I don't see it.  Rosen's passing statistics were near the bottom of NFL starters. He completed 55-56 percent of his passes I think at best.  He was very inconsistent. And I know, their OL had a lot of injuries last year.  And he was a rookie. But I don't want him.   He is on par with a lot of QB's the Skins have gone through over how many years? I have lost count.

 

  We could go through draft after draft of top 10 picks that were not successful in the NFL.   So we give up our 15th pick for a rookie contract?  I don't think you do that.  We have massive need in the secondary.  We need OL players ourselves.  We have ****, oft injured receivers.  No not this year. We have a lot of picks and I think we load up on a draft that has decent D players, O line players.  And of course we need a decent receiver.  The ones we have my gosh they are also always injured. 

 

You roll with McCoy and even Johnson and get your QB next year.  We are not even close and I don't care what Bruce Allen has to say about that.

 

I don't agree w/you about Rosen (granted I agree he sucked last year (you can't argue facts), but that doesn't change his status as a prospect to me), the way in which I do agree is that I think if we actually sucked bad enough for the 1.01 next year, that would be preferable to a Rosen Trade, 2 extra years of a QB on a rookie deal, is more valuable than only 3 more, and I'm all in w/regards to tanking in '19. But, if the choice is a 4 or 5 win season and out of range for the stud QB's next year, and especially the stubbliest of the studs, then I'd prefer the Rosen trade, as Rosen remains an elite QB prospect. There's a difference between playing for the Chiefs, and playing for a dumpster fire so bad, they fired the coach Richie Petitbone style, and fired the OC midseason in his FIRST YEAR AS OC. 

 

 

[RVAskins]

I'd have no problem if the Skins picked up Rosen. Financially it won't be  a big investment. The Redskins can then invest what cap money they do have in other areas. I think Jay could work with Rosen and help him improve.  Having Guice, Petterson and Thompson will take a lot of pressure of him too.

 

Having said that, I don't think it's going to happen. I really find it hard to believe the Cardinals give up on him after one season.

[bakedtater1]

You say tomato I say tomato...my family and I don't gather to watch the Redskins tank..we watch in hopes of success regardless of who's coming out in the draft the following year rather the draft is stacked or not..rinse, wash, repeat..

[beachboy757]

I started watching tape aka YouTube videos of Josh Rosens games that he started with the Cards.  Since these are highlights it is hard to see what he was struggling with.  What I did see is that he has good arm strength and a willingness to take chances and throw into tight coverage. His pocket awareness looked good the first few starts, but like with any rookie once the sacks started piling up he starting to backpedal and spin into sacks.  Curious to read about what other people see when they watch him.

 

I also stalked one of the Cardinals fan forums.  The fans don't appear to be excited about the possibility of drafting Kyler Murray and giving up on Rosen so soon.  Many would prefer Bosa or Haskins if they draft a QB.

[Renegade7]

48 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

 

Maybe it comes down to that. You attend games. I do not. I couldn't give less of a blank about the entertainment value of a game last fall or this coming fall, what I care about is that I'm 44 years old and the Redskins have been totally irrelevant since I was a high school senior in '92-'93. What is another year of manure to really actually turn this Titanic, or more accurately, Bismarck around? It's been freaking 25 years of horse bleep. You can't watch another year? It's already TWENTY FIVE. 

 

I was 3 last time we won the super bowl, so I've never really had the chance to know anything different then what you say you cant take anymore.  You're giving this front office too much credit if you think all they need is one year not even trying to all the sudden return to the glory days, they could still screw that up, another year lost, another chunk of the fan base gone.

 

48 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

Admittedly, while my passion may have only declined by about 10-15% during the awful Petitbone/Norv years, the ensuing 20 years of total incompetence, and literally evil work of our F.O. since have killed off an additional 60-70% of my passion, so year to year does not impact me anymore. I saw Jets 3 Redskins 0 25 years ago, well some of it, you could only watch so much of that game before your eyes started bleeding. All I want is hope, and I haven't had any to speak of since RGIII was drafted, and the honeymoon period with McCloughan when the F.O. dangled competence in front of us, before ripping it quickly away (kind of like hiring, then totally ignoring Richard Thaler 15 years ago). 

 

I'm sorry you are hanging on by a thread, but I'm sick of this franchise taking my passion for granted.

[Hooper]

Love the idea of getting Rosen. I watched him play a lot in college — think Jay could do wonders with him. The problem is if the G-men are at all smart — and they don’t seem to be — they will want him to, driving up the price. 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

All analysts I’m reading including some Giants and Eagles folks are thinking Rosen + Jay behind our OL with Guice has serious potential. What do we have to lose honestly. 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

In my perfect world scenario for the off season ...

 

Skins trade 2nd and 2020 3rd for Rosen. 

 

Trade 1.15 back to late 1st and add a 3rd. 

 

Draft Hakeem Butler or Marquise Brown in 1st

3rd: Guard

3rd: TE

3rd: defense

5th: Defense 

5th: defense

6th: defense

7th: defense

7th: defense 

 

free agency:

go all in to get Landon Collins and an Edge like Dee Ford or Jadaveon Clowney.

 

Getting Rosen actually gives us flexibility in FA long term knowing we can part easily with smith and not pay a vet to stop gap

[Hooper]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I get the point but people rarely put their name publicly to slamming someone in Bruce's position.  Specific to Bruce, Mike Lombardi is willing to do it publicly -- and its amusing but still rare for someone to be that bold.  T

Lombardi is fun radio. And I hear his book is solid, But he is widely mocked in league circles. Some outright hate him, like Albert Breer. The feeling is he had a pretty terrible track record but always spins it, and that is has used his position in the media to unsuccessfully lobby for jobs. He definitely wanted the Skins job after Scott got fired, for example. Didn’t sniff an interview and now he trashes Bruce all the time — a guy he he was fairly close with before. 

 

Bruce Allen is terrible. Now imagine if Bruce got canned and then became a media guy who criticized other GMs. That’s Lombardi in the eyes of many.

 

That said, did I mention Bruce is terrible?

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, The Consigliere said:

No offense, but it's not "right now," we haven't been relevant to ANYONE since 1992 other than as a joke regarding whatever latest incompetent, or cynically evil thing Snyder might have done during the previous week, otherwise we are totally and completely ignored. We have been as irrelevant since 1993, as we viewed the Detroit Lions and St. Louis Cardinals as irrelevant in the 1980's. It's that bad. Another year is irrelevant, it's 25 years of bad road at this point. Quoting whomever sang or said that. Can't remember. 

 

 

 

If you are talking purely as a W-L type of team I agree.  Heck they never even had two winning seasons in a row under Dan until recently and that recent 2 year stretch was 9-7, 8-7-1.   Only team not to win 11 games if I recall in about a 20 year stretch.  If I recall the only team or maybe one of three or something like that not to make the championship game since the 1991 season.   Not a single first team all-pro player in 20 years aside from a punter.   Winning a playoff game in the last 20 years is akin to winning a SB its so rare.  We can go on and on.  So I agree with your point.

 

My point though is at least the Redskins had some pizzaz during some of those years so that can keep the casual fans interest more -- where we didn't have to read things like Peter King said recently about them hemorrhaging fans.    Bruce's stamp on the team along with a host of other things IMO is boredom.  The only attention the team gets ironically is the soap opera component of the FO.   

 

Some said the Alex Smith deal last year was a splash but I didn't think so then.  He's not what I call an exciting acquisition.  No surprise to read that he didn't crack a dent as for selling jerseys last year.    And for me personally, i don't need pizzaz or excitement or care about selling jerseys but if you aren't winning -- its stars IMO that draw out the more causal fans and get them to watch the games on TV.  My point is its hard to keep their brand humming when they are mediocre AND boring.    The Giants with Barkley, Beckham maybe even Landon Colllins also aren't good but they are much more in play with national conversation because of their star power.

 

The idea that the Redskins are a punch line for not just being inept but also being boring and not worth even talking about -- that is new turf for the Dan era IMO.  And again i am not talking about it mattering for people like us but if they want to get the more run of the mill fan to the stands that don't live and die by every game like we do -- what's the draw for the causal fan?  

 

As for your other points on Rosen.  I've watched him a bunch today.  I can get into a deal if they don't give up a ton.  He's talented.  I don't think special but certainly talented. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

All analysts I’m reading including some Giants and Eagles folks are thinking Rosen + Jay behind our OL with Guice has serious potential. What do we have to lose honestly. 

 

I think to me it depends on what they give up.  

 

Purely based on speculation we got:  a first rounder and change.  And a mid rounder and a first rounder next year.  I'd do it for their 2nd pick this year in a sec.  As for their first -- maybe but I'd rather not.  For a first rounder and change -- I wouldn't like it.  

 

 

 

[RWJ]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think to me it depends on what they give up.  

 

Purely based on speculation we got:  a first rounder and change.  And a mid rounder and a first rounder next year.  I'd do it for their 2nd pick this year in a sec.  As for their first -- maybe but I'd rather not.  For a first rounder and change -- I wouldn't like it.  

 

 

 

I read a tweet where there was speculation that a 2020 1st round pick and a mid round pick this year might do it.  

[Est.1974]

Great news the Cards want Murray. I'm actually coming around to the idea of Rosen. Jags apparently nailed on for Foles. Broncos like Rypien. 

 

Still wonder what happens to Keenum...

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, RWJ said:

I read a tweet where there was speculation that a 2020 1st round pick and a mid round pick this year might do it.  

 

That was Tony Pauline saying he heard that.  I listened to his podcast where he talked about it.  Per Mike Leach's characteristics below of what is key for QBs.

 

From what I noticed about Josh.  And this is just my amateur opinion on this so if anyone disagrees, its of course more than cool and I am open on that front to being wrong.

 

1.  Accuracy -- good to very good

2.  Good decisions -- average to poor

3.  Quick Feet -- very good.  He's not fast but watching his feet is a thing of beauty

4.  Fast.  Not sure if he means quick release or literally fast.  if its quick release -- he's very good.  if its speed -- average

5.  Strong arm -- good.  Nothing special but above average

 

 

 

[RWJ]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

That was Tony Pauline saying he heard that.  I listened to his podcast where he talked about it.  Per Mike Leach's characteristics below of what is key for QBs.

 

From what I noticed about Josh.  And this is just my amateur opinion on this so if anyone disagrees, its of course more than cool and I am open on that front to being wrong.

 

1.  Accuracy -- good to very good

2.  Good decisions -- average to poor

3.  Quick Feet -- very good.  He's not fast but watching his feet is a thing of beauty

4.  Fast.  Not sure if he means quick release or literally fast.  if its quick release -- he's very good.  if its speed -- average

5.  Strong arm -- good.  Nothing special but above average

 

 

 

Thanks SIP.   That was the tweet.  I think the interest in Rosen is real and the Skins are focused in getting him.  I am starting to warm to the idea.  The talent is there Jay and O Connell will have to get him to mature and an OL that can protect him and we might have something good here on the very inexpensive for the next 3 years.