Is this the most talented yet misused defensive front we've had in years?

[Renegade7]

11 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

Philly showed everyone how to beat a pass-heavy league with a mediocre secondary, have a great D line.

In all fairness, that was the giants idea, got two rings out of it.  They were so obsessed with that, the backend defense got less resources, failed, and GM got fired.

[volsmet]

13 hours ago, JoggingGod said:

Anyone feel like we may have got lucky that Tampa took Vea? Payne seems several steps ahead so far.

 

Payne should have been gone by 5. Imo

[volsmet]

 

Quote

 

6. WASHINGTON REDSKINS

PROJECTED STARTING LINEUP:

Edge Defender: Ryan Kerrigan, 85.6 overall grade
Defensive Interior: Jonathan Allen, 81.3
Defensive Interior: Matt Ioannidis, 79.2
Edge Defender: Preston Smith, 76.0
Key Rotational Player: Da’Ron Payne, 87.7* (2017 college grade), Pernell McPhee, 79.9

Pressure Percentage as a team, 2017: 37.9% (8th)

Of the team’s in our top six, this is the one that I expect will surprise people the most, and that’s because the Redskins pass-rush was quietly one of the best in the NFL last season. Kerrigan produced 18 sacks and added four hits and 42 hurries, but with the Redskins struggling in general, it felt like his big performance didn’t get the credit it deserved, despite making the Pro Bowl. Where the Redskins can really impress people this season though is on the defensive interior. Ioannidis quietly produced the 14th-highest graded pass-rush grade among interior defenders last season, while the rising second-year star in Allen was on course to also rank inside the top 20 before injuries ruined his first season in the NFL.

 

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-nfl-pass-rush-rankings-all-32-teams-entering-2018

[Butters20]

Kerrigan had 18 sacks last year?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

15 minutes ago, Butters20 said:

Kerrigan had 18 sacks last year?

 

Either a typo or when they say "produced" they aren't just talking about sacks he had but also sacks his pressure directly led to...

[redskinss]

I believe kerrigan had 13 sacks last year. 

Still pretty good for someone who's recognition doesn't match his production. 

Kerrigan has 6.5 more sacks than kahlil mack over the last 4 years. 

[JoggingGod]

6 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

In all fairness, that was the giants idea, got two rings out of it.  They were so obsessed with that, the backend defense got less resources, failed, and GM got fired.

The GM got fired more for terrible the o-line

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, carex said:

the nice thing about the way the front seven is set up right now is that it even protects some of the depth issue we might have.  Okay, so no one is quite sure about Anderson and McPhee?  Well, the only time we definitely need Kerrigan and Smith i at OLB is when we're in the base 3-4 and that's actually pretty rare. When we're in the nickel and one of them needs a breather it doesn't have to be McPhee or Anderson replacing them.  We can bring in Lanier or Ionnadis or swing Allen out to end and have Settle or Ionnadis take the other DT spot

 

Judging by last year, or at least the games I watched, it was closer to the reverse.  You almost always saw Kerrigan and Preston in the 4-2.  But when they went 3-4 that's when you at times saw Galette come in and or Anderson.  Personally, I like McPhee a lot if he can stay healthy.  As for Anderson, I liked the hype about him -- tough-Alabama-plays with hate, etc.  He's not much of an athlete for that position.  But supposedly he's gotten himself in shape and looked better this camp so have some hope for him.  

 

 

 

[OVCChairman]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Judging by last year, or at least the games I watched, it was closer to the reverse.  You almost always saw Kerrigan and Preston in the 4-2.  But when they went 3-4 that's when you at times saw Galette come in and or Anderson.  Personally, I like McPhee a lot if he can stay healthy.  As for Anderson, I liked the hype about him -- tough-Alabama-plays with hate, etc.  He's not much of an athlete for that position.  But supposedly he's gotten himself in shape and looked better this camp so have some hope for him.  

 

 

 

 

 

My question for that would be... Were Smith / Kerrigan in at 'DE' when we ran that 4-2 because we didnt have a choice?  You could say that a lot of the season we had to play Allen (til he got hurt) and Ioannidis on the interior because we NEEDED something in there.  Now that we have Payne / Settle, it could open it up that Allen / Ioannidis / Hood lined up at End instead of interior, allowing us to have Kerrigan and Smith play their intended position of OLB.  

 

I do agree that the Kerrigan and Smith spent a lot of last year with their hand on the ground, but I wonder if that was by design or out of necessity... I don't know the answer.  

[RandyHolt]

23 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

My question for that would be... Were Smith / Kerrigan in at 'DE' when we ran that 4-2 because we didnt have a choice?  You could say that a lot of the season we had to play Allen (til he got hurt) and Ioannidis on the interior because we NEEDED something in there.  Now that we have Payne / Settle, it could open it up that Allen / Ioannidis / Hood lined up at End instead of interior, allowing us to have Kerrigan and Smith play their intended position of OLB.  

 

I do agree that the Kerrigan and Smith spent a lot of last year with their hand on the ground, but I wonder if that was by design or out of necessity... I don't know the answer.  

 

Ha I was thinking close to the same thing.  I figure with our new found depth inside, and maybe less so outside, that Allen may line up wide on obvious passing downs. Or, at least I want to see that - our front 4 be dynamic and not so static, especially if we aren't getting pressure in static matchups. 

 

I cannot remember who it was, but I heard someone mention our 4-3 - maybe it was that Zach Brown interview.  I still am not a fan building a 3-4 and then when the games on the line, it is no where to be seen.  Maybe if our 3-4 was more effective over the past 10 years we have been trying to assemble it, I would embrace it more.  I saw stats of Allen in - that our D was much better. I wonder if we delved into that and compared 3-4 vs 4-3, if it would show anything.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Judging by last year, or at least the games I watched, it was closer to the reverse.  You almost always saw Kerrigan and Preston in the 4-2.  But when they went 3-4 that's when you at times saw Galette come in and or Anderson.  

Makes sense to me that if Hood, McGee and whichever other dlineman (McClain) were in and Smith/Kerrigan were getting a breather, Manusky would want 5 on the line to up the chances at still being able to pressure the qb.  

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

My question for that would be... Were Smith / Kerrigan in at 'DE' when we ran that 4-2 because we didnt have a choice?  You could say that a lot of the season we had to play Allen (til he got hurt) and Ioannidis on the interior because we NEEDED something in there.  Now that we have Payne / Settle, it could open it up that Allen / Ioannidis / Hood lined up at End instead of interior, allowing us to have Kerrigan and Smith play their intended position of OLB.  

 

I do agree that the Kerrigan and Smith spent a lot of last year with their hand on the ground, but I wonder if that was by design or out of necessity... I don't know the answer.  

Maybe so, but Smith and Kerrigan are 2 of our better pass rushers, so it makes sense to have them as DEs when opponents are in nickel.  I could absolutely see them replace one of those two with Allen or Io outside when there’s still the threat of a run - such as 1st downs, or 2nd and less than 10 or so.  

57 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Ha I was thinking close to the same thing.  I figure with our new found depth inside, and maybe less so outside, that Allen may line up wide on obvious passing downs. Or, at least I want to see that - our front 4 be dynamic and not so static, especially if we aren't getting pressure in static matchups. 

Well, if Smith or Kerrigan are playing DE (w/ 4 down linemen), they can drop in coverage, which isn’t something I’d want Allen/Ioannidis doing.  Totally agree though that if our ‘traditional’ look isn’t getting it done, switch it up.  We’re certainly better situated to do so now.  

57 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

I cannot remember who it was, but I heard someone mention our 4-3 - maybe it was that Zach Brown interview.  I still am not a fan building a 3-4 and then when the games on the line, it is no where to be seen.  Maybe if our 3-4 was more effective over the past 10 years we have been trying to assemble it, I would embrace it more.  I saw stats of Allen in - that our D was much better. I wonder if we delved into that and compared 3-4 vs 4-3, if it would show anything.

Well, as you said, part of the problem has been the effectiveness in our 34.  Health aside, that should change this year.  Another part of the problem is how many you drop into coverage, and would you rather Smith or Kerrigan drop, or add a db instead (and go with the 4-2)?  

 

I think we’re definitely more well rounded now and so maybe we see different looks more often.  More 34 looks, or more 4-2 with a heavier body (or 2) at DE. 

 

Gotta imagine Manusky is pretty giddy about the possibilities.  Looking like he’s got 5 very good dline types (Smith, Allen, Payne, Ioannidis, and Kerrigan) and a few other guys that he can play around with (sub in, move around, blitz, etc.) - Lanier, Foster, McPhee, Anderson, Brown, Swearinger, Settle and JHC.    

 

 

[Panninho]

3 hours ago, Butters20 said:

Kerrigan had 18 sacks last year?

I think at PFF they count 0.5 sacks as a full sack. That might explain the difference to official statistics.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I'm excited for this defense, I think it can be top 10.  If everyone stays healthy, maybe top 5.  It all starts with the line, much has been written about Payne and Allen but this should also be a deep line with Settle, too.  

 

With Kerrigan and Smith pinching on the sides and a good push up front, there should be constant pressure.  Hopefully this leads to not just sacks but bad decisions by quarterbacks and throwing some picks.  

[skinny21]

6 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

I'm excited for this defense, I think it can be top 10.  If everyone stays healthy, maybe top 5.  It all starts with the line, much has been written about Payne and Allen but this should also be a deep line with Settle, too.  

 

With Kerrigan and Smith pinching on the sides and a good push up front, there should be constant pressure.  Hopefully this leads to not just sacks but bad decisions by quarterbacks and throwing some picks.  

I’m right there with you.  My main concern now is with the dbs.  Obviously a good dline makes a big difference, but we’ve all seen those qbs/offenses utilizing quick throws to negate the pass rush.  Fuller excelled in this area... I’d feel a whole lot better if he were still on the team.  

My other area of concern is the offense.  I really like most of our pieces, but there are potential trouble areas, much of it related to health.  A bit nervous about our ground game too.  If we struggle to run the ball (and/or in the RZ), our D could show some cracks.  Or not, lol.  I’m excited to see it play out.  

[Skinsinparadise]

57 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

 

Maybe so, but Smith and Kerrigan are 2 of our better pass rushers, so it makes sense to have them as DEs when opponents are in nickel.  I could absolutely see them replace one of those two with Allen or Io outside when there’s still the threat of a run - such as 1st downs, or 2nd and less than 10 or so.  

Well, if Smith or Kerrigan are playing DE (w/ 4 down linemen), they can drop in coverage, which isn’t something I’d want Allen/Ioannidis doing.  Totally agree though that if our ‘traditional’ look isn’t getting it done, switch it up.  We’re certainly better situated to do so now. 

 

 

I can't recall them doing that last year and I've studied and charted a bunch of games specific to the D line.  If anything what you were more likely to see is an extra pass rusher in. You have Preston and Kerrigan sometimes playing inside.  Galette, Preston, Kerrigan all in together, etc.  Even on goal line stances, I recall the ends being in.  But 5 D lineman all at once -- don't recall that. 

 

I understand what you are saying -- have 5 run stuffers in via obvious run downs.  But don't recall them doing that last season.  Also ironically the two DE-OLB subs, Anderson and McPhee are good against the run.  So I'd be surprised to see Jonathan Allen play 6-7 technique.  Since you could just bring in Anderson or McPhee.  But will see.  

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

My question for that would be... Were Smith / Kerrigan in at 'DE' when we ran that 4-2 because we didnt have a choice?  You could say that a lot of the season we had to play Allen (til he got hurt) and Ioannidis on the interior because we NEEDED something in there.  Now that we have Payne / Settle, it could open it up that Allen / Ioannidis / Hood lined up at End instead of interior, allowing us to have Kerrigan and Smith play their intended position of OLB.  

 

I do agree that the Kerrigan and Smith spent a lot of last year with their hand on the ground, but I wonder if that was by design or out of necessity... I don't know the answer.  

 

I recall seeing them take out Allen of the lineup completely in the 3-4 let alone have him play OLB in that formation when he was healthy.  They were all healthy early last season and yeah I don't recall fronts with basically 5 D lineman.  Like I said, in a recent post and previous posts the funkiness you'd see from the fronts would be they'd put a guy like Lanier or Ionnaidis at nose at times in obvious passing situations.  You'd see three OLBs on the field at the same time.  You'd have an OLB play like Preston inside.  Heck they even sometimes used the MLBs close to the line of scrimmage and they acted like OLBs where they just rushed up the A gaps.  But I don't recall any 5 D lineman types on the field at the same time -- maybe i missed it?

[OVCChairman]

27 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I recall seeing them take out Allen of the lineup completely in the 3-4 let alone have him play OLB in that formation when he was healthy.  They were all healthy early last season and yeah I don't recall fronts with basically 5 D lineman.  Like I said, in a recent post and previous posts the funkiness you'd see from the fronts would be they'd put a guy like Lanier or Ionnaidis at nose at times in obvious passing situations.  You'd see three OLBs on the field at the same time.  You'd have an OLB play like Preston inside.  Heck they even sometimes used the MLBs close to the line of scrimmage and they acted like OLBs where they just rushed up the A gaps.  But I don't recall any 5 D lineman types on the field at the same time -- maybe i missed it?

 

 

I thought we were talking about when we had 4 down lineman?  Or did i misunderstand your post?  I GUESS you could treat Allen like an OLB in certain situations... god knows the dude is fast enough, but it would have to be a running play... not sure I want him that far outside and possibly matched up in coverage vs a TE or something.  NFL QBs would trip over themselves trying to audible the play 

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I thought we were talking about when we had 4 down lineman?  Or did i misunderstand your post?  I GUESS you could treat Allen like an OLB in certain situations... god knows the dude is fast enough, but it would have to be a running play... not sure I want him that far outside and possibly matched up in coverage vs a TE or something.  NFL QBs would trip over themselves trying to audible the play 

 

Same applies though to either 3-4 or 4-2.  I don't recall more than three defensive tackles on the field at the same time.  Its possible I missed it.  But I noticed a lot of other things but didn't see that and I was looking.  But I didn't watch every game on coaches tape, 

[OVCChairman]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Same applies though to either 3-4 or 4-2.  I don't recall more than three defensive tackles on the field at the same time.  Its possible I missed it.  But I noticed a lot of other things but didn't see that and I was looking.  But I didn't watch every game on coaches tape, 

 

 

I'm sorry I'm so lost. 

 

If we run a 4-2-5 and have 4 down lineman... it could easily look like Allen / Payne / Settle / Ioannidis now that we have legit interior players.  You can now rotate Kerrigan / Smith out based on the situation, but I don't think that's what we saw....   Maybe last year we were FORCED to put Smith AND Kerrigan on the ground because of our lack of options.  If I'm an offensive coordinator going into a game, I'm telling my QB to audible to off tackle ANY time we see Kerrigan / Allen / Ioannidis / Smith.  

I guess my point where you referenced never seeing 5 D-lineman on the field, wasn't because we didnt want to.. it's because we didnt have those 5 capable d-lineman on the roster, and now we seemingly do.  

[volsmet]

It’s worth noting - in forumville things inevitably deteriorate into nonsense at times, but you guys have made this another great read, even for someone who has been force fed football from birth. You guys really are gifted at spotting things, analyzing - & just as importantly - making those thoughts clear.

 

*This concludes today’s PSA paid for by citizens for hugs, puppies, old bay, & rainbows.*

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, OVCChairman said:

I guess my point where you referenced never seeing 5 D-lineman on the field, wasn't because we didnt want to.. it's because we didnt have those 5 capable d-lineman on the roster, and now we seemingly do.  

 

I understood your point.  But we've had Ionnaidis, Allen, Hood, McGee, McClain, Ionnaidis at the same time.  Allen didn't instantly got knocked out for the season.  I was especially interested in the early formations.    But yeah I didn't see 3 DTs-1 OLBs formations.  But maybe I missed it. It's possible.  But yeah I'd figure that any of those big bodies can stop the run better than Kerrigan yet he wasn't subbed out as far as I noticed. 

 

If you would audible into an off tackle run as you said each time you see Kerrigan and Preston -- why not audible to a pass if you see a big DT type playing end? 

[OVCChairman]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I understood your point.  But we've had Ionnaidis, Allen, Hood, McGee, McClain, Ionnaidis at the same time.  Allen didn't instantly got knocked out for the season.  I was especially interested in the early formations.    But yeah I didn't see 3 DTs-1 OLBs formations.  But maybe I missed it. It's possible.  But yeah I'd figure that any of those big bodies can stop the run better than Kerrigan yet he wasn't subbed out as far as I noticed. 

 

If you would audible into an off tackle run as you said each time you see Kerrigan and Preston -- why not audible to a pass if you see a big DT type playing end? 

 

 

Less about position matchup and more about the (and i know this is going to be a unpopular comment) mismatch and issues Kerrigan has in run defense.  Plenty of times I've seen Kerrigan get carried up-field and run 7 yards into the backfield, opening a gaping hole through that side of the defense.  I would argue that last year, even when Allen was healthy, the best 'line' we could put out there was with Kerrigan and Smith in the dirt, and Ioannidis on the interior.  That McGee / McClain / Hood were not good enough to give us the flexibility to line it up with them on the interior techinques.  Now that we have Payne / Settle that can play inside, we'll likely see Allen / Ioannidis at the 'DE' spot more frequently.  

[skinny21]

25 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I understood your point.  But we've had Ionnaidis, Allen, Hood, McGee, McClain, Ionnaidis at the same time.  Allen didn't instantly got knocked out for the season.  I was especially interested in the early formations.    But yeah I didn't see 3 DTs-1 OLBs formations.  But maybe I missed it. It's possible.  But yeah I'd figure that any of those big bodies can stop the run better than Kerrigan yet he wasn't subbed out as far as I noticed. 

 

If you would audible into an off tackle run as you said each time you see Kerrigan and Preston -- why not audible to a pass if you see a big DT type playing end? 

I think there’s a disconnect here based off your responses to OVC and myself (could be wrong though).  

 

1) we’re not saying we did it last year

2) we’re not talking about 5 down linemen (we’re talking about the 4-2 moreso). 

3) we’re saying since there was a drop off from Allen/Io to McGee/Hood/McClain, maybe now that Payne’s in the fold, perhaps we see occasions where Allen or Ioannidis kick out to DE (to replace Smith or Kerrigan and give them a breather).  

 

 

Edit:  I’m gonna add some detail here

 

Our five best on the line are Allen, Io, Payne, Smith and Kerrigan.  Playing a 34 puts all 5 on the field, which is great.  Against 3 receiver sets though, our 4-2 makes more sense because we’d generally (probably) rather extra dbs in coverage vs a 3rd backer or dropping an OLB.  

 

So then comes the question, how do we get our guys rest?  Yes, we could play different linemen in the 34 vs 42, and yes, we could just sub in our backup OLBs, but perhaps even better... we rotate our 3 best linemen in the 42 (Payne, Allen and Ioannidis), and to give our OLB a breather, we occasionally kick one of the dline men out to DE (because they can still rush the passer and they’re likely a boon to the run D too).  

 

Now, I will say that part of the reason I’d consider this is because I haven’t heard anything about McPhee and I’m not sold on Anderson (yet).  Obviously the easier answer is just to sub one of those two in for Smith/Kerrigan... it just might not be the most potent/productive answer.  

 

Does that make any more sense?

[XxSpearheadxX]

Can I tell you how many times I've rewatched thay one play where J. Allen just crushes the jets RB in the backfield. He wasn't even running at full speed or anything, just generated so much power through his hips in short space its nasty. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

5 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I'm sorry I'm so lost. 

 

If we run a 4-2-5 and have 4 down lineman... it could easily look like Allen / Payne / Settle / Ioannidis now that we have legit interior players.  You can now rotate Kerrigan / Smith out based on the situation, but I don't think that's what we saw....   Maybe last year we were FORCED to put Smith AND Kerrigan on the ground because of our lack of options.  If I'm an offensive coordinator going into a game, I'm telling my QB to audible to off tackle ANY time we see Kerrigan / Allen / Ioannidis / Smith.  

I guess my point where you referenced never seeing 5 D-lineman on the field, wasn't because we didnt want to.. it's because we didnt have those 5 capable d-lineman on the roster, and now we seemingly do.  

 

I'm getting confused by what you're saying.  So let's just scratch the 4-2, 3-4, 4-3 for now and get to where people actually line up and what you want them to do.

 

Kerrigan and Smith are going to primarily be on the line of scrimmage because they are more valuable as pass rushers or edge defenders keeping contain on the run play.  Sometimes they'll have the hand in the dirt, sometimes they won't.  That doesn't really matter as it can be personal preference based on what they feel is more effective for them on a given play.  Anyone remember Jason Babin playing as a 9 Tech for the Eagles.  That guy had both hands in the ground and his sole objective was exploding upfield to get after the QB.  Not everyone does that (most don't), but Babin felt more comfortable in that stance.

 

Don't think of Kerrigan and Smith as OLB's or DL or whatever.  Think of them as Edge defenders.  Primarily, on run plays, we want them setting a hard "edge" or perimeter that forces the ballcarrier to cut up inside of them.  That gives the pursuing defenders (Swearinger, Foster, Brown, etc) less space to cover and they can be more sure of the gaps they are supposed to defend.  This means they'll be on the line of scrimmage, and if the play isn't in their direction they'll likely want to bull rush (if not outright beat) the blocker towards the run play so the defender doesn't have a cutback lane against the direction the defenders (Swearinger, Foster, Brown, etc) are flowing.

 

In general, in every defensive formation you want to have someone with Edge or Contain responsibility that will steer the action back inside.

 

Here's the o-line:

LT...LG...C...RG...RT

 

Here's the 4-2-5:

Edge...DL...DL...Edge

 

Here's how our 4-2-5 commonly matches up with the o-line.

Edge......DL.............DL.......Edge

..........LT...LG...C...RG...RT.........

 

When there's a TE on the line, one of the Edge guys (Kerrigan or Smith) has to line up wider so he can keep contain if need be.  Also, this is how Payne got his sack in the preseason:

Edge...........DL............DL.......Edge

.......TE...LT...LG...C...RG...RT.........

 

The Edge guys can still have contain, but they play wider to threaten the OT's.  Since it's a "passing formation", the Center is left with nobody over the top of him.  This theoretically leaves both Guards on islands against the DL, and they're not sure which way the DL is going to attack them off the snap.  Once the snap happens, the Center has to pick which Guard he helps (against us he'll probably be helping against Jon Allen).

 

So our 4-2-5 still features 4 guys on the line of scrimmage, but they're aligned for better chances at 1-on-1 matchups against the OL.  Preston Smith and Ryan Kerrigan are quick enough to get upfield and react to the play, set contain, or whatever.  Someone like Matt Ioannidis is not.  If Ioannidis explodes out of his stance up field, he's not changing direction in time to set contain, and he's not fast enough to threaten the OT with speed.  Guys who are close to 300 pounds that can do that are named Julius Peppers or JJ Watt.

 

Let's check out Ioannidis's sack against the Patriots, we have 3 down lineman, and he's lined up as a 5 Tech (outside the shoulder of the Right Tackle), but he's not an Edge defender.  It's an empty backfield set, so the only danger to contain is Tom Brady running a QB Keeper, and that's not happening.