Is this the most talented yet misused defensive front we've had in years?

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, redskinss said:

Yes the offensive lineman didn't pick him uo, carry him to the sidelines and throw him at the head coach, but he was soundly beaten on the play. 

He got lifted turned and held until the running back was long gone. 

My grandmother could have run through that hole and that doesn't happen unless the nose tackle gets owned. 

Stop being so overly dramatic and watch the play again. Foster should have been in that hole, but got completely blown away and Swearinger comes late and barely even attempts the tackle. 

 

Do you just assume Payne has to rag doll 2 o lineman every play to be affective? If foster is in the hole, the RB gets slowed down enough for Payne to get a hand on him. 

1 minute ago, OVCChairman said:

 

Yeah Foster was the one I keyed on too.  Payne didnt get abused, but he gave up the inside the flood gates opened.  Vigil did what he was supposed to and Foster ran right past the hole.  It wasn't very good all around.  

If Foster was able to get in that hole, instead of being washed out completely, the run probably stops at the los. 

[OVCChairman]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Stop being so overly dramatic and watch the play again. Foster should have been in that hole, but got completely blown away and Swearinger comes late and barely even attempts the tackle. 

 

Do you just assume Payne has to rag doll 2 o lineman every play to be affective? If foster is in the hole, the RB gets slowed down enough for Payne to get a hand on him. 

If Foster was able to get in that hole, instead of being washed out completely, the run probably stops at the los. 

 

Agreed.  But if we're playing the 'if' game, to be fair, 'IF' Payne doesn't get turned, it likely gets stopped at or near the LOS as well.  There wasn't much good in that clip, and I have a lot more acceptance of Payne because he is a rookie and hasn't even played a regular season down yet.  Foster is a vet and he looked much worse in my eyes.  

[Sandy Monk]

Agree with Kool and OVC.

 

Plus, I never played LB, but I don't love what Vigil does there either. I don't like seeing an ILB instantly take himself out of the play by attacking the lead blocker. 

[redskinss]

18 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Stop being so overly dramatic and watch the play again. Foster should have been in that hole, but got completely blown away and Swearinger comes late and barely even attempts the tackle. 

 

Do you just assume Payne has to rag doll 2 o lineman every play to be affective? If foster is in the hole, the RB gets slowed down enough for Payne to get a hand on him. 

It was never in dispute that the rest of the team looked awful on the play as well. 

Payne was soundly beaten and the rest is semantics and I absolutely refuse to get into another battle of semantics on extremeskins, on that point I concede. 

I think payne is going to be a great football player I was just pointing out he still has some learning to do. 

[OVCChairman]

13 minutes ago, Sandy Monk said:

Agree with Kool and OVC.

 

Plus, I never played LB, but I don't love what Vigil does there either. I don't like seeing an ILB instantly take himself out of the play by attacking the lead blocker. 

 

 

That appeared to be what his job on that play was to do.... prevent the lead blocker from getting to the second level to allow for an open lane to the ball carrier.  Like i said in my earlier post... it appears he's the only one that executes his job.

[skinny21]

Yeah, Vigil looked like he did what he was supposed to in picking up the FB... although dropping his head gave him no chance at making a play.  Swearinger looks like was responsible for the outside.  Not a fan of his attempted tackle, but Payne and Foster are the two that get blocked out.  Foster’s was pretty bad looking, Payne... well, you hope he’ll win 1v1 more often than not, but it sure didn’t happen that time.  

[Sandy Monk]

16 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

That appeared to be what his job on that play was to do.... prevent the lead blocker from getting to the second level to allow for an open lane to the ball carrier.  Like i said in my earlier post... it appears he's the only one that executes his job.

 

Eh, I'd rather him engage at the LOS and keep himself in the play. I felt he was overzealous in attacking the FB which left a bigger run lane than he should have. 

[dyst]

As with EVERY positive thread associated with the Redskins (Alex Smith, Adrian Peterson, Defensive Front, Receivers and whatever else), it's best to assume they will suck and hope for the best. This team has not shown anything except suck-age or mediocrity. Smith and Kerrigan will get their 8/11 sacks respectivily but can't necessairly cover in the flat or impact the game otherwise. Allen played 5 games, Payne and Settle are rookies, Ioannidis seems to be injured a lot. Lanir and Hood, are lower than 'just a guy' level.

[OVCChairman]

42 minutes ago, dyst said:

As with EVERY positive thread associated with the Redskins (Alex Smith, Adrian Peterson, Defensive Front, Receivers and whatever else), it's best to assume they will suck and hope for the best. This team has not shown anything except suck-age or mediocrity. Smith and Kerrigan will get their 8/11 sacks respectivily but can't necessairly cover in the flat or impact the game otherwise. Allen played 5 games, Payne and Settle are rookies, Ioannidis seems to be injured a lot. Lanir and Hood, are lower than 'just a guy' level.

 

best for you maybe... but I choose not to look at it that way.  I've seen quite a bit to be encouraged about.  Friday night was a bit of a setback, but the talent is clearly there.  How we look at things and draw opinions is open to each persons interpretation and choice.    

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, redskinss said:

It was never in dispute that the rest of the team looked awful on the play as well. 

Payne was soundly beaten and the rest is semantics and I absolutely refuse to get into another battle of semantics on extremeskins, on that point I concede. 

I think payne is going to be a great football player I was just pointing out he still has some learning to do. 

They play in a TV, not a vacuum. What Payne did wasn't great. Wasn't awful either. Most guys on the defense did pretty well on that play. Vigil over attacked, DJ wiffed on an arm tackle, Payne was turned but not moved off his block and mostly, Foster was caught sleeping out there by a guard and washed out of everything. Either he engages the guard to let DJ tackle or he shoots the hole to redirect the RB. 

 

Semantics? You can't just look at one play and say "everyone sucks" then specifically bang on the wrong player as an excuse to ****, then blame semantics?

[carex]

1 hour ago, dyst said:

As with EVERY positive thread associated with the Redskins (Alex Smith, Adrian Peterson, Defensive Front, Receivers and whatever else), it's best to assume they will suck and hope for the best. This team has not shown anything except suck-age or mediocrity. Smith and Kerrigan will get their 8/11 sacks respectivily but can't necessairly cover in the flat or impact the game otherwise. Allen played 5 games, Payne and Settle are rookies, Ioannidis seems to be injured a lot. Lanir and Hood, are lower than 'just a guy' level.

 

so it's best not to be positive in a positive thread

[Koolblue13]

6 minutes ago, carex said:

 

so it's best not to be positive in a positive thread

This is probably the first or second year where I haven't been overly optimistic before week one and I'm pretty sure it's the best team we've had in a decade. 

[dyst]

54 minutes ago, carex said:

 

so it's best not to be positive in a positive thread

You would think after 27 years of history smacking us in the face, people wouldn't be so bullish on this team.

[OVCChairman]

8 minutes ago, dyst said:

You would think after 27 years of history smacking us in the face, people wouldn't be so bullish on this team.

 

 

and you could say that you'd think drafting a D-lineman in the 1st round for the 1st time since Kenard Lang in 1997 would give people more excitement about the unit.  

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

and you could say that you'd think drafting a D-lineman in the 1st round for the 1st time since Kenard Lang in 1997 would give people more excitement about the unit.  

2 years in a row to boot! And a 2nd and 4rth round LB and signing one of the top tackling LBers in the league. 

 

Our defense has to be better eventually. 

[dyst]

2 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

and you could say that you'd think drafting a D-lineman in the 1st round for the 1st time since Kenard Lang in 1997 would give people more excitement about the unit.  

You could yes, but you could also see how a similar discussion is had every.single.year practically.  Over the years people have been jacked up about Chis Baker, Terrence Knighton, Jason Hatcher, Jarvis Jenkins, Barry Cofield, Stephen Bowen, Adam Carriker, Phillip Daniels, Cornelius Griffin, Albert Haynesworth, Andre Carter and probably a dozen more. This isn't new. We get excited every year until we realize the movie is just a repeat. Granted, like you said, the excitement maybe comes from drafting these guys so there is a certain level of bias there but damn, they did not look like anything to get excited about last week, brought back a lot of bad taste.

 

 

 

[Sandy Monk]

16 minutes ago, dyst said:

You would think after 27 years of history smacking us in the face, people wouldn't be so bullish on this team.

 

This here is the type of post I had been getting on my soap box at times over.

 

I can understand some people unwilling to give any faith and hope for the the team or certain players. What I can't understand is why they come to a forum and show clear disapproval over other posters that have not also curled up and gone fetal as they have. Is this an example of where the axiom "misery loves company" comes from? 

[OVCChairman]

8 minutes ago, dyst said:

You could yes, but you could also see how a similar discussion is had every.single.year practically.  Over the years people have been jacked up about Chis Baker, Terrence Knighton, Jason Hatcher, Jarvis Jenkins, Barry Cofield, Stephen Bowen, Adam Carriker, Phillip Daniels, Cornelius Griffin, Albert Haynesworth, Andre Carter and probably a dozen more. This isn't new. We get excited every year until we realize the movie is just a repeat. Granted, like you said, the excitement maybe comes from drafting these guys so there is a certain level of bias there but damn, they did not look like anything to get excited about last week, brought back a lot of bad taste.

 

 

 

 

 

That's true... but there's something to say about getting 2 of the top D-line prospects in the entire draft in back to back years.  Allen and Payne were WIDELY viewed as a top 2 in their respective positions coming out of the biggest football factory in the country.   They weren't just hyped up, they had pedigree. Haynesworth is the only one on that list that APPEARED to have the same skills / talent as these two guys.  All those other names were sold as a bill of good, but never had a track record of being as good as these two were.  I would also venture to say that nobody on that list has the anticipated ceiling that these two guys have... Haynesworth most likely being the only one talent wise in the same conversation.  Allen and Payne, in a very small sample size, have already flashed more talent than those other guys, and they've combined for 6 regular season games.  The IDEA of what these guys are capable of is VERY exciting... It's now time to produce.  

As bad as they looked vs Denver, a team with legit playoff aspirations, they looked equally as good vs the NYJ the week before... a team with less lofty expectations.  

[Fat Stupid Loser]

53 minutes ago, dyst said:

You would think after 27 years of history smacking us in the face, people wouldn't be so bullish on this team.

Hope dies last man, hope dies last.  Already happened for old guys like me. The younguns, well, hope keeps them coming back for more.

[Sandy Monk]

6 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

Hope dies last man, hope dies last.  Already happened for old guys like me. The younguns, well, hope keeps them coming back for more.

 

I think it's opposite more so, actually.

 

The young are usually more reactionary and cautious with their hopes. They have more fear and less resilience when being let down.

 

I speak personally to this for myself and others I know well. As the decades pass, one typically learns to better prioritize sports entertainment where it better belongs. As time goes by and one learns what is really important, one can better shrug off the smaller things that fall below the real life things. Which is not to say you don't care about sports when you get older.. only that you can throw as much wild faith in as you want.. because being wrong or your team losing is more understood as not the end of the world. ? 

[Fat Stupid Loser]

55 minutes ago, Sandy Monk said:

 

I think it's opposite more so, actually.

 

The young are usually more reactionary and cautious with their hopes. They have more fear and less resilience when being let down.

 

I speak personally to this for myself and others I know well. As the decades pass, one typically learns to better prioritize sports entertainment where it better belongs. As time goes by and one learns what is really important, one can better shrug off the smaller things that fall below the real life things. Which is not to say you don't care about sports when you get older.. only that you can throw as much wild faith in as you want.. because being wrong or your team losing is more understood as not the end of the world. ? 

I appreciate that.  I think my hope dies last thing is more of a philosophical thought where as opposed to love or faith, which can be lost quite easily, hope in most humans will hang on til your last breath no matter how irrational it may be.  My applying it to something as ultimately irrelevant as a sports team probably missed the mark.

[OVCChairman]

whoops, wrong thread. 

[jbird2]

2 hours ago, dyst said:

 Over the years people have been jacked up about Chis Baker, Terrence Knighton, Jason Hatcher, Jarvis Jenkins, Barry Cofield, Stephen Bowen, Adam Carriker, Phillip Daniels, Cornelius Griffin, Albert Haynesworth, Andre Carter and probably a dozen more.  

 

 

- Chris Baker - Mr. Hustle, homegrown excellent back-up talent played above his head at a very good starter level. No teams had to gameplan against him.

- Terrence Knighton - Yep big hype, never really performed up to his expectation level.

- Jason Hatcher - Raise your hand if you really thought he was ever going to be anything than a serviceable starter? Dude was constantly hurt, and if you thought he was going to be a world beater you were a marching band of 1.

- Jarvis Jenkins - High expectations, injured in rookie pre-season, and raise your hand if you thought he would recover and make noise. 

- Barry Cofield - Good grief, anyone could see he was cannon fodder. We were desperate.

- Bowen - See Cofield We were hoping to get out of terrible to mediocre. If you were wild about Bowen and Cofield, you had some pretty low expectations

- Adam Carriker - He had a good season after poor a poor start with Chargers or Rams. I would say he surpassed expectations and then got hurt and dissapeared. at the very most he was going to re-vitalize his career here, which he did before getting hurt.

- Philip Daniels - fit the same mold as Baker, hustled and overplayed his ceiling. Had an amazing game against Dallas and endeared himself to the hearts of Skins fans  by sacking aikmen all day Only the thickest of koolaid drinkers ever thought he would make a pro-bowl.

- Cornelius Griffen - Spotty with Giants, was fantastic first few years with Skins. Overplayed expectations greatly and tailed off late.

- Haynesworth - Robbed Snyder blind. Is the one true example of Huge Hype and Huge Disappointment, but anyone not wearing burgandy and gold could see it coming. 

Andre Carter - Played up to expectations unless you thought he was going to be Bruce Smith in his prime. Speaking of which....

 

....Bruce Smith - Huge excitement for an amazing player at the tail end of his career. and he played his heart out every snap he was on the field. Matched the Hype of a legend in his last years

 

- Jason Taylor - Care to Dance?....Was an utter disappointment. Got nowhere near his hype.

- Lorenzo Alexander - Homegrown, Played over his head Fan Favorite

- Marco Coleman - No one really thought he would be anything than what he was, a solid player

- Sean Gilbert - Played to expectations 1 season. Sat out and became a hated figure 

- Daryl Gardner - Ok we are scraping the barrel, but there were those who thought he was going to be a perennial all pro 

- Kedric Golston - LOL

- Vonnie Holliday - Ziggy Hood - Cullen Jenkins - Frank Kearse - Cedric Killings????

 

Outside of Mann & Manley & Maybe Bruce Smith we aint ever had a game changing line except on paper, and in our most rabid fan's minds.

 

This line has potential. POTENTIAL. That potential should be tempered by injury history. The cool thing is that these guys are OUR guys. We drafted them and developed them and we can see the POTENTIAL.

 

Let's not get too excited or disappointed until we see what this season brings.

 

Wait... ....I forgot who the Skins are.....go ahead and prep for dissapointment! :)

 

 

 

[jbird2]

19 hours ago, jbird said:

 

- Chris Baker - Mr. Hustle, homegrown excellent back-up talent played above his head at a very good starter level. No teams had to gameplan against him.

- Terrence Knighton - Yep big hype, never really performed up to his expectation level.

- Jason Hatcher - Raise your hand if you really thought he was ever going to be anything than a serviceable starter? Dude was constantly hurt, and if you thought he was going to be a world beater you were a marching band of 1.

- Jarvis Jenkins - High expectations, injured in rookie pre-season, and raise your hand if you thought he would recover and make noise. 

- Barry Cofield - Good grief, anyone could see he was cannon fodder. We were desperate.

- Bowen - See Cofield We were hoping to get out of terrible to mediocre. If you were wild about Bowen and Cofield, you had some pretty low expectations

- Adam Carriker - He had a good season after poor a poor start with Chargers or Rams. I would say he surpassed expectations and then got hurt and dissapeared. at the very most he was going to re-vitalize his career here, which he did before getting hurt.

- Philip Daniels - fit the same mold as Baker, hustled and overplayed his ceiling. Had an amazing game against Dallas and endeared himself to the hearts of Skins fans  by sacking aikmen all day Only the thickest of koolaid drinkers ever thought he would make a pro-bowl.

- Cornelius Griffen - Spotty with Giants, was fantastic first few years with Skins. Overplayed expectations greatly and tailed off late.

- Haynesworth - Robbed Snyder blind. Is the one true example of Huge Hype and Huge Disappointment, but anyone not wearing burgandy and gold could see it coming. 

Andre Carter - Played up to expectations unless you thought he was going to be Bruce Smith in his prime. Speaking of which....

 

....Bruce Smith - Huge excitement for an amazing player at the tail end of his career. and he played his heart out every snap he was on the field. Matched the Hype of a legend in his last years

 

- Jason Taylor - Care to Dance?....Was an utter disappointment. Got nowhere near his hype.

- Lorenzo Alexander - Homegrown, Played over his head Fan Favorite

- Marco Coleman - No one really thought he would be anything than what he was, a solid player

- Sean Gilbert - Played to expectations 1 season. Sat out and became a hated figure 

- Daryl Gardner - Ok we are scraping the barrel, but there were those who thought he was going to be a perennial all pro 

- Kedric Golston - LOL

- Vonnie Holliday - Ziggy Hood - Cullen Jenkins - Frank Kearse - Cedric Killings????

 

Outside of Mann & Manley & Maybe Bruce Smith we aint ever had a game changing line except on paper, and in our most rabid fan's minds.

 

This line has potential. POTENTIAL. That potential should be tempered by injury history. The cool thing is that these guys are OUR guys. We drafted them and developed them and we can see the POTENTIAL.

 

Let's not get too excited or disappointed until we see what this season brings.

 

Wait... ....I forgot who the Skins are.....go ahead and prep for dissapointment!

 

 

 

 

Oh, I forgot Dana Stubblefield. He was a hyped up disappointment.

and Dan Wilkinson - He lived up to expectation initially but got progressively worse and faded out of relevance over a few years.

 

To sum up, the really huge hyped up disappointments in my mind are primarily:

- Haynesworth

- Stubblefield

- Jason Taylor

- Knighton

 

I would balance that with the guys who played up to expectations at least initially

- Bruce Smith

- Andre Carter

- Sean Gilbert (traitor)

- Adam Carriker (injured)

 

The guys below are some of my favorites over the years, 

- C Baker

- C Griffen

- P Daniels

- Lorenzo (I consider him more of an LB but he played line a lot)

 

 

 

So I guess I agree that we have had some HUGE whiffs in FA bringing in the next "Reggie White" but if you temper that with the guys who performed well we really aint much different than most teams, except for the 5-8 year period where we whiffed on the 4 big failures.

 

Funny enough, Griffen was a Bama guy as well.

 

If DPayne and JAllen turn out to be a couple of Griffens, it would not be a terrible miss, but I think their upside is much greater ITCSH. (If they can stay healthy....)

 

Homegrown is always more fun to watch!

 

[bedlamVR]

What about Big Joe Salave'a you remember Cedrick Killings - but forgot big Joe ? - was a big reason the 2004/5 defence was as stingy as it was -