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5 hours ago, NickyJ said:

How Master Blaster would handle being the judge in a court case....

 

Prosecution: "Your honor, the prosecution has detailed the brutal murders of 15 different people over the past 4 years. We have photos and eyewitness testimony of the defendant holding the bloody knife in his hands, moments after his last murder. His DNA was found at each of the murders scenes, including the last one he committed while being observed by 4 different witnesses. We have also shown the recordings of him committing manslaughter while driving away from the last murder scene. We rest our case."

 

Judge Master Blaster: "My question is how does one manslaughter prove he is a serial murderer?"

 

Prosecution: *Incredulous stare*

 

Judge Master Blaster: "I find the defendant innocent of all charges, case dismissed."

 

 

Still didn’t answer how an injury to someone with the team for a month proves there is an issue with something the Redskins do or don’t do. 

 

 

Also, there’s no such thing as serial manslaughter 

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12 hours ago, Master Blaster said:

 

 

I agree the Redskins have had a lot of injuries. 

 

My question was how does a rookie one month with the team prove there is an issue?

My answer would be you can look at the dozens of other injuries and see there is something wrong with what this team does. 
I get injuries are flukes, but other teams do not get hit with them as badly as this team does consistently. For everyone else it's just bad luck. for us, it's expected, and predictable.

I read an article yesterday i think that details just how snakebitten the Redskins have been over the last several years..(Might have been John Keim)  basically the gist was Jay Gruden has never been able to implement whatever "plan A" is because he is consistently forced into Plan B or C or even D by the inordinate amount of injuries this team takes.

 

When there is a pattern, there is a reason.

We definitely have a pattern.

So what is the reason?

 

~Bang

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1 hour ago, Bang said:

When there is a pattern, there is a reason.

We definitely have a pattern.

So what is the reason?

 

~Bang

 

Is our current training camp regimen SO different from the other teams that it's hurting our players? Do you have a theory for the reason? I'm not challenging you on this. I'm just asking for more comment.

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10 minutes ago, Chachie said:

 

Is our current training camp regimen SO different from the other teams that it's hurting our players? Do you have a theory for the reason? I'm not challenging you on this. I'm just asking for more comment.

I'm kinda curious myself,  what are the leauge statistics over say the last 5 years?  

Are we at the bottom or do we just always feel like we are? 

I honestly have no idea,  I know it always feels like we're way worse than other teams but I don't follow any of the other teams closely enough to have a baseline. 

 

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The stats have us at the bottom.  My guess is lack of resources and lack of focus from management.

 

I will post this again.  Who puts more resources into their players? 

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Edited by HOF44
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8 hours ago, Master Blaster said:

 

 

Still didn’t answer how an injury to someone with the team for a month proves there is an issue with something the Redskins do or don’t do. 

 

 

Also, there’s no such thing as serial manslaughter 

Again, you completely miss the point. The one injury to someone this month isn't the issue. It's the 50 season ending injuries that have happened in the past 3 year. This latest injury isn't the first ever. It is the continuation of the worst trend in the NFL. I don't understand why someone would even WANT to try to deny it.

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Some aerial photos aren't  proof that our injury statistics are noticeably worse than leauge average. 

And just because we don't have a huge splashy facility doesn't mean we don't put adequate resources into the health of our players. 

I'd really love it if someone could provide me with more than circumstantial evidence that we are in fact bottom of the leauge in games lost to injuries over the last 5 years and proof of the reason why. 

Otherwise its all just conjecture. 

Edited by redskinss

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4 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Some aerial photos aren't  proof that our injury statistics are noticeably worse than leauge average. 

And just because we don't have a huge splashy facility doesn't mean we don't put adequate resources into the health of our players. 

I'd really love it if someone could provide me with more than circumstantial evidence that we are in fact bottom of the leauge in games lost to injuries over the last 5 years and proof of the reason why. 

Otherwise its all just conjecture. 

It’s been linked all over different threads the stats showing we are at the bottom.  It’s not a Feeling. 

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3 minutes ago, HOF44 said:

It’s been linked all over different threads the stats showing we are at the bottom.  It’s not a Feeling. 

All I've seen is the adjusted games lost stat and if that's the be all and end all of injury statistics then they are one of the worst if not the worst. 

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5 minutes ago, redskinss said:

All I've seen is the adjusted games lost stat and if that's the be all and end all of injury statistics then they are one of the worst if not the worst. 

That’s a pretty good stat. Also Keim I believe did an article confirming our dismal injury history. 

Edited by HOF44
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1 hour ago, Chachie said:

 

Is our current training camp regimen SO different from the other teams that it's hurting our players? Do you have a theory for the reason? I'm not challenging you on this. I'm just asking for more comment.

i don't know of stats.. but i am sure there are.
Pro-Football Reference does keep track of injuries, and looking back over the Redskins recent past, it's just as red as their jerseys.

Personally i  have a feeling much of this is a result from the current CBA that limits contact, that limits how hard they can go in practice. That has to have an effect,and in fact there is plenty of evidence of the rise of soft tissue early season injuries. The body has to be conditioned to play football, and that is more than just lifting weights and practicing techniques against inanimate objects.

Last week one of the buzz phrases was 'seeing how they do in the uncontrolled environment of a game". 
If the game is an 'uncontrolled environment" and you do not know what you will get til they are in it... then what the hell is that? This is the environment they are  practicing to play in. So duplicating it at least somewhat would seem to be common sense, right? Obviously you don't want guys killing each other, but, and if you'll pardon me for saying, back in the DAY they went hard for 4 weeks of camp and we didn't see nearly the attrition we see now.

Nowadays they have a couple of OTAs in which they run light drills, go to class and lift weights, then 2 weeks of limited contact camp and they're READY?

Obviously not.
The Patriots.. the Seahawks, these are teams that routinely ignore the candy ass rules.. they practice to play football, pay their fines and win football games. 
2 a-days? Is that even a thing anymore?
They are supposed to be TRAINING to play football. What does a WALK THROUGH do every day?
I'll tell you what it does.  It ****ing WALKS. The learning aspect of it is what OTAs and **** are for. Walk-throughs are for Fridays or Saturdays when you are in season shape and you have a game on Sunday.

So who knows if it's training and conditioning staff methods, or the rules they are having to work under. But it's something, and whatever it is, we do it worse than anyone.

 

~Bang

Edited by Bang
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On 8/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Too bad Cooley is off the air, be interesting to hear his take.  His mantra about why the run game didn't work last year was:

 

A.  Running backs with poor vision.  Kelley-Perine had potential cuts and holes but  they didn't have the vision to exploit them. In his view it was the #1 problem. 

B. TE blocking on the edge was weak and Jay likes running the duo which requires the TEs to hold the edge and the guys we have are really 

 

What fueled my obsession for a RB in the draft was checking out on tape on some of Cooley's points.  And you could see what he was talking about, I posted many clips of it here and on other threads -- the poor TE blocking, and Perine and Kelley not exploiting holes that were created.   A lot of my pessimism is driven by that.  Clinton Portis who knows a thing or two about the position in a nice way talked up about the same thing in the off season and talked about how you need a running back who can see things and set up blocks.  

 

 

For the most part I don’t disagree with you. Guice provided more upside and talent, no doubt. I was more speaking to the extremists and those who feel the run game no longer has a chance to average in the 4s for the year. 

 

The NFL pundits and fans seem to be shifting 100% back the other way in regards to importance of a RB after many valued them less for last 10 years (aside from the elite prospects who play all downs). Guice was set to be a 2 down back with the Skins for seasons to come.

 

I could see Cooley coming back around on Kelley. Get the offense clicking and some easier running lanes, Kelley will return to rookie form, averaging 4 plus yards a carry. 

 

Guice talent is no question better. No argument from me. I’ve seen many talented backs struggle when faced with stacked boxes, bad offenses etc.. and many average backs dominate with a well designed scheme, supporting cast, veteran QB.

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What really sucks was JCK was a pioneer in team facilities. Redskins Park was the first of its kind. A dedicated building and practice facility. Where once we led we now bring up the rear.  Much like on the field. 

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2 hours ago, Chachie said:

 

Is our current training camp regimen SO different from the other teams that it's hurting our players? Do you have a theory for the reason? I'm not challenging you on this. I'm just asking for more comment.

 

There are a couple of things. We lagged behind in our strength and conditioning program, our weight room was a joke. We have a lousy indoor practice facility. Our training area was also a joke, but at least we FINALLY upgrade both recently, the training facility just this offseason. And then there are rumors coming out that the players are not taking care of their bodies like they should. If they are not, the training stuff probably needs to do a class on this. About the importance of hitting the ice baths, not just after your bruised up, but to make sure you DON"T get real sore. There seems to be issues everywhere that point to a general lack of emphasis on really taking care of the players.

 

8 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

For the most part I don’t disagree with you. Guice provided more upside and talent, no doubt. I was more speaking to the extremists and those who feel the run game no longer has a chance to average in the 4s for the year. 

 

The NFL pundits and fans seem to be shifting 100% back the other way in regards to importance of a RB after many valued them less for last 10 years (aside from the elite prospects who play all downs). Guice was set to be a 2 down back with the Skins for seasons to come.

 

I could see Cooley coming back around on Kelley. Get the offense clicking and some easier running lanes, Kelley will return to rookie form, averaging 4 plus yards a carry. 

 

Guice talent is no question better. No argument from me. I’ve seen many talented backs struggle when faced with stacked boxes, bad offenses etc.. and many average backs dominate with a well designed scheme, supporting cast, veteran QB.

 

 

I don't see a real reason to see that it would. You have, for now a healthy OL, but that was also the case last season. We have the same RB's from last year...................except Chris Thompson is still out and won't be ready for awhile, and he was our leading rusher before he got hurt AND was the only guy that had a better than 3.8 average, with a 4.6 average. We are no better. And I'll argue that even healthy, this is NOT a good run blocking unit. And they are really bad when it comes to short yardage. As a unit, they are not physical and can't move the LOS at all. I don't see any reason why this unit will be much improved, even if it stays healthy. It's just not very good. Guice gave us a chance, because he was used to being game planned against, having the box stuff against him, and still would go out and win, consistently. He could excel even with bad blocking. We don't have anyone that can do that, they are as a group, barely average with good blocking. Give them a big hole, where it is supposed to be, and they can be effective. Give them a crease anywhere the play was not supposed to go, and they will likely miss it. There is a reason a lot of us put so much on Guice. He's exceptional. He has great vision (which you can't teach) runs like a madman (which you can't teach) and had excellent speed, quickness, and balance, none of which you can teach. He's the best back we've had in years. and, if he sticks with the team, and remains healthy, he might re-write the redskins record books. I think he is that good.

 

As for me, I've always said you win by running the football and stopping the run, which I fully admit is a very antiquated philosophy. But I think it's still true.

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1 hour ago, redskinss said:

All I've seen is the adjusted games lost stat and if that's the be all and end all of injury statistics then they are one of the worst if not the worst. 

 

Here is a huge amount of info on last year. I've tried to cut out parts that were not important to this conversation, but it's still long. *Warning* Wall of text incoming!

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/2017-adjusted-games-lost

 

2017 Adjusted Games Lost

 

by Scott Kacsmar

Good news: the 2017 NFL season did not set any record for most injuries. In fact, injuries were actually down from the 2016 season, as measured by total adjusted games lost (AGL) across the league. However, it was impossible to cover last season without harping on the injuries to so many important and notable players.

 

Last year was the second season in which the NFL no longer used "probable" in the Game Status Reports. This has changed the way we collect and analyze our data. We have a large number of players who appeared on the injury practice reports during the week, but they do not receive an official Game Status Report designation since "probable" no longer exists. We started calling these players "The Blanks" last year, and just like the way probable used to work, these players are active more than 95 percent of the time. Frankly, they should be active 100 percent of the time if you read this 2017 explanation from the NFL on how the reports should work now:

If a player was listed on the club's Practice Report during the week, but is not listed on the club's Game Status Report, it means that the club is certain the player will play. If the player is then deactivated for the game, the club will be required to provide an explanation. If the explanation is inadequate or unpersuasive, a compliance investigation or enforcement proceeding may be initiated.

Roughly 57 explanations were needed in 2017, because that's how many players we found who were inactive without being on the Game Status Report. None of those players were starters or even key backups, so this is often just the case of healthy scratches of third-string quarterbacks or depth-chart buried backs and linebackers. Nothing shady here (yet).

We actually found an increase of almost 500 Blanks from 2016, but the usage of questionable was down. However, players listed as questionable did not play (DNP) 33.0 percent of the time, as opposed to 25.8 percent in 2016.

Game Status Report Results, 2016-17
Game Status 2016 2017
Players DNP% Players DNP%
Blank (Probable) 1,527 4.6% 2,011 4.1%
Questionable 1,733 25.8% 1,426 33.0%
Doubtful 213 99.5% 170 97.6%
Out 971 100.0% 852 100.0%

There were also four 2017 players listed as "doubtful" who still managed to play that week, albeit in limited roles. Green Bay's Davon House started his Week 14 game after being listed as doubtful, but he did not finish that game and was out for Week 15. Oddly enough, this happened three times in Week 15 with Kyle Rudolph (Vikings), Landon Collins (Giants), and Michael Johnson (Bengals) each starting a game. Collins only played 18 snaps and did not register a solo tackle. Rudolph caught a short touchdown, but only played a season-low 21 snaps. Johnson played 43 snaps, or 64 percent of his team's total that day. That makes you wonder if any of these efforts were really worth it in risking further injury.

Before we get to the 2017 AGL results, we'll look at how specific teams used the Game Status Report.

2017's Injury Reporting Tactics

The rules leave some gray area for teams to interpret, and we are definitely seeing some trends associated with specific teams and coaching staffs in how they choose to file these reports. The following table shows how many Blanks and questionable players each team had in the 2017 regular season, and how often those teams played those players that week.

2017 Injury Reports: The Blanks (New Probable) and Questionable Players
Rk Team Blanks Played Pct.   Rk Team Questionable Played Pct.
1 IND 46 39 84.8% 1 PIT 22 6 27.3%
2 PIT 47 43 91.5% 2 CHI 59 21 35.6%
3 LAC 53 49 92.5% 3 PHI 33 13 39.4%
4 DET 29 27 93.1% 4 ATL 10 4 40.0%
5 MIN 73 68 93.2% 5 LAR 20 9 45.0%
6 CHI 44 41 93.2% 6 CLE 31 15 48.4%
7 DAL 46 43 93.5% 7 HOU 20 10 50.0%
8 MIA 51 48 94.1% 8 JAX 44 24 54.5%
9 NYG 52 49 94.2% 9 MIN 31 18 58.1%
10 NO 44 42 95.5% 10 NO 28 17 60.7%
11 PHI 66 63 95.5% 11 ARI 58 36 62.1%
12 HOU 163 156 95.7% 12 NE 87 55 63.2%
13 JAX 94 90 95.7% 13 DEN 33 21 63.6%
14 NYJ 143 137 95.8% 14 CIN 28 18 64.3%
15 CLE 100 96 96.0% 15 DET 56 36 64.3%
16 CIN 82 79 96.3% 16 DAL 64 42 65.6%
Rk Team Blanks Played Pct. Rk Team Questionable Played Pct.
17 CAR 90 87 96.7% 17 OAK 59 39 66.1%
18 TB 30 29 96.7% 18 TEN 15 10 66.7%
19 LAR 31 30 96.8% 19 GB 60 41 68.3%
20 BUF 63 61 96.8% 20 LAC 48 33 68.8%
21 KC 65 63 96.9% 21 CAR 45 31 68.9%
22 SF 70 68 97.1% 22 IND 27 19 70.4%
23 ATL 72 70 97.2% 23 NYG 44 31 70.5%
24 TEN 36 35 97.2% 24 SF 39 29 74.4%
25 NE 41 40 97.6% 25 KC 25 19 76.0%
26 ARI 52 51 98.1% 26 BUF 47 36 76.6%
27 GB 59 58 98.3% 27 WAS 94 73 77.7%
28 DEN 67 66 98.5% 28 SEA 55 43 78.2%
29 SEA 92 91 98.9% 29 MIA 70 55 78.6%
30 BAL 7 7 100.0% 30 NYJ 28 23 82.1%
31 OAK 41 41 100.0% 31 BAL 89 76 85.4%
32 WAS 62 62 100.0% 32 TB 57 53 93.0%
- NFL 2011 1929 95.9% - NFL 1426 956 67.0%

In 2016, Dallas was the only team to never report Blanks, but five other teams (Ravens, Patriots, Raiders, Dolphins, and Buccaneers) also had fewer than 10. In 2017, only Baltimore (seven) used fewer than 29 Blanks, but those other five teams were still on the low end too. Perhaps to compensate, Baltimore's 89 questionable players were the second-highest total in the league, and the 85.4 percent rate of play was also the second-highest. So the Ravens are one team that is probably listing too many injuries as questionable when they should be more certain the player is going to play that week.

Another continuing trend is the Houston Texans' love for reporting minor injuries (not that there's anything wrong with that). This is the fifth season in a row where the Texans led all teams with the most minor injuries reported. This doesn't appear to be a Bill O'Brien thing since it goes back to 2013, Gary Kubiak's final season on the job. It also isn't just about public relations, a job that switched over to Amy Palcic in 2016. Through e-mail, Palcic told FO that while the list of injuries is given to the PR staff, that list is produced by the medical staff and approved by football operations before it is submitted to the league. Houston's head trainer and general manager were two constants during this five-year stretch, so that's really where this is coming from each year. This is also the fourth time in the last five years where the Jets finished second to the Texans in most Blanks or probable players, so that is the other franchise that is very forthcoming with a list of injuries.

 

Leaguewide, the Blanks played 95.9 percent of the time, and every team was at 91.5 percent or higher except for the Colts (84.8 percent), who had their own injury controversy in 2017. Veteran cornerback Vontae Davis was once considered the key player in this defense, but his play had fallen off in recent years. His health did too in 2017, with a groin injury that eventually required season-ending surgery. However, Davis was benched for what was considered poor play even though the groin injury persisted. After Davis chose to have the season-ending surgery in November, the Colts actually just released him. Beyond Davis' unceremonious ending, the Colts made running back Matt Jones and rookie corner Quincy Wilson "healthy scratches" twice each to account for four of the seven times they did not play a Blank.
.

In 2016, Washington's Jay Gruden played 89.4 percent of his "questionable" players, the second-highest rate in the league. He had the highest rate in his 2014 rookie season and was middle-of-the-pack in 2015. In 2017 he had the sixth-highest rate played, but also had to use questionable more than any team (94 times), as you will see below.

Tampa Bay has been the team with the most questionable use of questionable in the two years since Dirk Koetter took over as head coach. In 2016, the Buccaneers played 43-of-47 questionable players for a league-high 91.5 percent rate. In 2017, the Buccaneers played 53-of-57 questionable players for a league-high 93.0 percent rate. Basically, if Tampa Bay lists someone as questionable, he's almost certainly going to play that week. That's not the intended use of the designation. If it's that high of a certainty that the player is going to play, then he should not be listed on the Game Status Report. He should be a Blank, which Tampa Bay rarely uses.

2017 AGL Results

Last year, Chicago set the new benchmark for AGL in a season. The Bears almost led the league in injuries again, but a 10-game suspension to injured linebacker Jerrell Freeman (removing him from AGL for that period) was enough to give another old-school NFC team the crown. Since there were some changes to the participation rates for questionable players, we recalculated AGL totals for 2016. Those new totals are presented along with the 2017 numbers in the following table. The 2016 Bears still hold the record with 158.8 AGL.

Team 2017 AGL Rk 2016 AGL Rk
LAR 15.6 1 30.7 1
ATL 16.3 2 52.4 6
TEN 27.6 3 32.5 2
PIT 30.5 4 62.2 12
DAL 37.2 5 73.8 17
JAX 38.3 6 73.7 16
CAR 42.9 7 58.1 9
OAK 44.2 8 67.5 13
BUF 44.5 9 101.1 27
NYJ 47.4 10 112.2 29
MIN 47.7 11 121.6 30
CLE 52.7 12 97.2 23
PHI 53.5 13 39.6 4
NE 61.3 14 57.5 8
DEN 65.9 15 60.9 10
LAC 67.6 16 129.2 31
Team 2017 AGL Rk 2016 AGL Rk
DET 72.7 17 72.1 14
TB 78.6 18 78.9 18
KC 80.0 19 100.4 26
CIN 80.8 20 35.4 3
GB 84.8 21 72.4 15
SEA 88.2 22 41.9 5
SF 91.6 23 98.8 24
NO 95.9 24 83.2 21
NYG 96.3 25 53.4 7
IND 101.2 26 80.1 20
BAL 101.6 27 62.0 11
ARI 105.6 28 78.9 19
HOU 107.3 29 93.0 22
MIA 115.5 30 102.9 28
CHI 118.1 31 158.8 32
WAS 121.0 32 99.0 25

Note: these numbers are subject to change between now and the release of Football Outsiders Almanac 2018.

When we looked at AGL for head coaches last year, Jay Gruden was only surpassed by Mike McCoy's San Diego teams. After Washington finished last in AGL in 2017, we can say that Gruden has had the most injured teams of any coach since 2002. This 2017 total does not even include anything for safety Su'a Cravens, who shocked everyone when he decided to retire a week before the regular season. He was placed on an exempt list and missed the entire season after getting treated for post-concussion syndrome. Middle linebacker Mason Foster (11.3 AGL) and first-round rookie Jonathan Allen (11.0 AGL) were Washington's two biggest losses by AGL. The skill positions also lost tight end Jordan Reed (8.3 AGL), running backs Rob Kelley (8.6 AGL) and Chris Thompson (6.1 AGL), and wide receiver Terrelle Pryor (7.1 AGL) for extended periods of time. As we'll see next week in the unit breakdowns, the depth of injuries along the offensive line really pushed Washington over the top here. Washington had a league-high 10 players incur at least 6.0 AGL.

 

 
 

 

 

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2 hours ago, NickyJ said:

Again, you completely miss the point. The one injury to someone this month isn't the issue. It's the 50 season ending injuries that have happened in the past 3 year. This latest injury isn't the first ever. It is the continuation of the worst trend in the NFL. I don't understand why someone would even WANT to try to deny it.

 

No you are completely missing the point.  Where did I deny the Redskins are having issues with injuries?

 

My point is using someone with the team for a month to make the point doesn't have any weight.

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10 minutes ago, Master Blaster said:

 

No you are completely missing the point.  Where did I deny the Redskins are having issues with injuries?

 

My point is using someone with the team for a month to make the point doesn't have any weight.

That's because you're singling out one injury and holding it completely separate from the rest. It's like saying Jonathan Allen getting injured in week six of last season doesn't carry any weight because he was just one person getting injured early in the season.

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1 minute ago, NickyJ said:

That's because you're singling out one injury and holding it completely separate from the rest. It's like saying Jonathan Allen getting injured in week six of last season doesn't carry any weight because he was just one person getting injured early in the season.

 

 

I never attempted to make that point.

 

I'm not singling out anything other than to say use your best facts. 

 

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Injuries?  Look no further at how our players seem to consistently have worse footing than our opposition, even at home.

 

I vote it's time to lock up this thread / reboot / MET. It's no longer about our shiny new toy.

Edited by RandyHolt
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On 8/18/2018 at 1:04 PM, clskinsfan said:

Any word on Guice's surgery? i think he was scheduled to have it yesterday right?

i guess it got moved to today... i thought the same thing. 

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Man I don't know the guy personally but he just seems like the definition of keeping a positive attitude in the face of adversity. I'm pulling for the kid big time. 

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