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Welcome to the Washington Redskins Da'Ron Payne DT Alabama

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5 hours ago, THE HAMMER'IN HOG said:


I find it a personal insult to know someone is following my post's "just looking" for "anything" they can find wrong to make themselves feel important at my expense, as for others; many of us are here to discuss Redskins FOOTBALL, not police posters over infantile nonsense!!! 

 

Dude.  Considering your rants are making it difficult for those of us that are only lurking to read the thread on news and debate how Payne fits into our scheme, this isn't REMOTELY anyone just looking for something they can find wrong.  Take a deep breath and walk away from the keyboard for a minute. You've been here since 2003, so you're aware of how we all behave, my man. 

 

Back on topic, I'm just excited to see what the coaching staff can do with him.  If he can contribute and Allen can stay healthy, this defense could have the best front 7 we've had in a very long time. 

 

Hail. 

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10 minutes ago, LetThePointsSoar said:

Back on topic, I'm just excited to see what the coaching staff can do with him.  If he can contribute and Allen can stay healthy, this defense could have the best front 7 we've had in a very long time. 

 

Hail. 

 

Do you (or anyone else in the thread) envision Payne and Settle being on the field at the same time? 

 

Maybe for first down in anticipation of run play?

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38 minutes ago, bird_1972 said:

 

Do you (or anyone else in the thread) envision Payne and Settle being on the field at the same time? 

 

Maybe for first down in anticipation of run play?

 

Oh yeah, I think they can play together.  They're versatile guys.  Probably not next year, because Settle is going to need some time to get ready to step on the field.  But I could see them playing in a variety of packages and they could see the field together.

 

If Settle gets on the field this year, it'll be on passing downs IMO.  He's ready to rush from a 1 and 3 technique.  It's the best part of his game, he's a natural.  He's a bowling ball rusher like Jurrell Casey who is hard to win leverage against and hold onto.  But he's got a ways to go before you can trust him at the one technique on run downs.

 

Payne has the talent to be interchangeable at the one and three.  He should be able to play with any of our other DLs.

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49 minutes ago, bird_1972 said:

 

Do you (or anyone else in the thread) envision Payne and Settle being on the field at the same time? 

 

Maybe for first down in anticipation of run play?

I think it depends on a couple of things (just talking the 3-4 here)... how they progress going into the season, how McGee, Allen and Io are playing the run, and whether coaches feel comfortable enough to sub the two of the of them in at the same time.  

 

I’d say there’s a strong chance they’re on the field together at some point, especially as the season wears on... even if it’s only on rare occasions.  

 

They may well both be in on short yardage and goal line plays too.  I highly doubt they’re our DTs in our nickel package though (injuries aside).  

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56 minutes ago, bird_1972 said:

 

Do you (or anyone else in the thread) envision Payne and Settle being on the field at the same time? 

 

Maybe for first down in anticipation of run play?

Absolutely, considering we can't stay healthy. However if Settle can show to play like Payne did for Alabama last year, Payne can be the disruptive player he was against Georgia. 

 

If Phil Taylor can somehow make the team, Jesus Christ. 

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I think Settle might end up on the practice squad next season, like Ioannidis did when he was a rookie.  He is still a kid and he could use some time in the oven.  But like Ioannidis, he's got a chance to be really good.

 

Actually, I think I'd be in favor of keeping him on the roster this season, even if it meant cutting a guy who is better than him today.  His upside is really good and I don't want him to get poached from the PS.

 

It's really hard to keep two rookies at one position, but I think we need to bite the bullet this season and maybe run a sketchier rotation in order to maximize our long term potential.  It helps that Payne has an NFL ready body and NFL ready run defense and can play immediately.

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People look at “muh sacks” and make assumptions about d-lineman in college, not knowing what QB hurries or pushing the pocket are.

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1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I think Settle might end up on the practice squad next season, like Ioannidis did when he was a rookie.  He is still a kid and he could use some time in the oven.  But like Ioannidis, he's got a chance to be really good.

 

Actually, I think I'd be in favor of keeping him on the roster this season, even if it meant cutting a guy who is better than him today.  His upside is really good and I don't want him to get poached from the PS.

 

It's really hard to keep two rookies at one position, but I think we need to bite the bullet this season and maybe run a sketchier rotation in order to maximize our long term potential.  It helps that Payne has an NFL ready body and NFL ready run defense and can play immediately.

 

I think no way that Settle goes on PS.... I guess the knock on him is that Settle is potentially "lazy"....

 

If Settle shows up and he is half fit then you will have teams lining up to claiming him off the PS...  Settle is a guy that was projected higher but fell due to "concerns" while Ioannidis was a guy when drafted that maybe of us never heard of... Ioannidis could have easily headed toward UDFA status without anyone thinking that he "fell" during the draft... Guys like Ioannidis you can keep on PS but guys like Settle... unlikely to last on PS for the whole year...

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Right now I really don't care if Payne is much of a pass rusher. If he collapses the pocket on passing downs, and more importantly, clogs up the middle on rushing downs, that is what I care about right now. When you give up over 2100 yards rushing at 4.5 a carry as a defence, you better button that up if you expect to do anything.

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3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I think I was the only one in last year's draft thread who argued Allen was being overrated when he was being talked about as a top five pick.  I made that argument long before the combine and I was right.  He was a good, not great prospect, and he got picked where he belonged in the draft.

 

My two big concerns with Allen were that he was caught between positions/playstyles and that so much of his production (the biggest selling point for his draft stock) came from being single blocked, unblocked, or tight end blocked.  I thought he was undersized to be a traditional interior DL and too slow to be a dominant edge player.  And I thought he benefited from playing with guys like Tim Williams and Payne, more so than they benefited from playing with him.

 

As far as athletic traits go, he's got elite body control for his size and his play strength is awesome, but Allen was noticeably slow off the line.  And that is a red flag for me for projecting outside rushers.  It's why I don't think Allen can ever be a truly special edge rusher no matter how good his technique gets.  First step explosion is also the reason I was on the Payne bandwagon early because I knew he wouldn't be limited in that way.

 

But at the end of the day, Allen is a true finisher.  He is more than the sum of his parts because his play instincts are first rate.  It's the same as it is with Ryan Kerrigan.  Kerrigan isn't keeping DCs up at night, warping and breaking schemes.  He's not that kind of athlete at the position.  But By God, if the play is there for him to make, he's going to do it.

 

Payne is a potential scheme buster.  He's the one on that Bama defense that got accounted for in opposing offensive schemes.  If he can play the same role here, that will be such a boon for our defense.  People wonder why he didn't gap shoot and stunt and twist and play further from the ball in college more, if his effectiveness at doing so was demonstrated in the Georgia game.  And the truth is that Alabama's defense was better when he played the 0 and 1 and two-gapped the run and didn't stunt even though it hurt his individual numbers.  Everyone else benefits from him soaking up doubles and containing the middle of the line, and the defense becomes greater than the sum of its parts.  Linebackers get the really good opportunities to make plays on the ball.  And he sets the table for finishers like Kerrigan and Allen to eat.  You need Allens and Kerrigans and you need Paynes in order to fill the different roles necessary to play successful defense.

 

I can agree with a good amount of this...though I'm not sure I'd really consider 6'3 288 "undersized" for a 3-4 DE in a 1 gap system. As I said earlier in this thread Allen and Payne are both great athletes but in different ways. Payne has an excellent explosiveness and Allen has excellent body control/balance and lateral agility. I also don't think Allen is that great as an edge rusher. I think he was out of place when Bama put him out as a 5 tech which they did sometimes on passing downs.He's really a true 3 tech IMO and that's where his best traits can be used. 

 

As far as Payne if you watch his film he did actually gap shoot and get one on ones sometimes. During obvious rushing downs he was usually at 0 or 1 but on passing downs they tended to move him out to 3 tech quite a bit. It just seems that it wasn't until that championship game that he really took advantage of it and showed what he could do. Still not 100% sure why that was but I' guessing it was a variety of factors. I'll have to go watch the cutup of that game again. 

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32 minutes ago, mistertim said:

I can agree with a good amount of this...though I'm not sure I'd really consider 6'3 288 "undersized" for a 3-4 DE in a 1 gap system. As I said earlier in this thread Allen and Payne are both great athletes but in different ways. Payne has an excellent explosiveness and Allen has excellent body control/balance and lateral agility. I also don't think Allen is that great as an edge rusher. I think he was out of place when Bama put him out as a 5 tech which they did sometimes on passing downs.He's really a true 3 tech IMO and that's where his best traits can be used. 

 

Allen measured just over 6'2 and a half and 286 at the combine, which is on the small side for a 5, 4, or 3 tech.  The five techniques in particular are usually a couple inches taller, and usually interior DLs carry over 300 pounds.  Especially three techniques.  The guys who star at the position who are under 300 like Geno Atkins and Aaron Donald ran way faster than Allen did.

 

Payne has top notch body control and contact balance too, especially for a nose.  He's a better athlete than Jonathan Allen is, but Allen is a smarter and more instinctive player and he's definitely a more skilled pass rusher.  Allen is probably going to benefit from Payne's presence more than anyone else.  He's going to keep Allen single-blocked.  Allen needs that to thrive at his size.

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5 hours ago, bird_1972 said:

 

Do you (or anyone else in the thread) envision Payne and Settle being on the field at the same time? 

 

Maybe for first down in anticipation of run play?

 

*I, personally, would be intrigued (sometimes) by:

-- LDE Da'Ron Payne/Matt Ioannidis/Stacy McGee...

-- NT Tim Settle/Phil Taylor...

-- RDE Jonathan Allen/Anthony Lanier...

(Just for '****s & Giggles').

Edited by OlufemiBiz
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You don't think there's a spot for ionnidis? 

I thought he looked pretty good last year before injury. 

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Reading all of the above posts that worry about D Payne's ability to get "sacks'n'stuff" makes me realize people haven't really understood the 3/4 and why we have been terrible on Defense since the switch.  You don't want a NT to get sacks or pressures in the vast majority of situations (more below), you want an NT to take out two OL. 

 

It's not that 3/4s don't work, they do, but the job of the 3/4 lineman isn't the same as a 4/3. I actually prefer a 4/3 and think we would have won a few more games every year running a 4/3 but that is a different post.  In general in a 4/3 you want every DL to be able to make plays, in terms of rushing the QB but that is not the case in a 3/4. If you want your NT to get pressure or sacks the 3/4 fails.

 

We honestly don't want D Payne to get any sacks or any pressures (unless its a complete collapse, the QBs is being forced from the pocket forward or they only use one blocker on the NT).  We want an NT, D Payne, to occupy two interior o lineman every single play.  I'm not sure where DP would have gone in the draft if we didn't get him but it seems like he is both willing and able to play as an NT, that is selflessly taking out two OL at the expense of personal stats which isn't necessarily a given (see AH). 

 

If the NT can be blocked 1-1 the 3/4 fails and that has been the case every single year we have run the 3/4.  We don't really even want the NT to push the LOS back, we just want him to keep two OL occupied at all times.   If the NT rushes the QB and doesn't draw two blockers the 3/4 fails. 

 

The idea is you take one interior lineman and you say don't go after the qb, take up two OL every play, there will be cases where you want the NT to play almost like a blocker to occupy two OL so they can't block LBs on certain run plays.  If D Payne can take out two OL every play the team has dramatically improved and the defensive scheme may work.  If the NT can't occupy 2 OL during run plays (basically blocking them) the 3/4 fails

 

NT seems like an unimportant position if you don't try to get stats, but it's actually the cornerstone of the whole philosophy the 3/4 is built on, if your NT doesn't take out two OL the whole 3/4 fails, and in reality our defense has been a failure since the switch.  Getting D Payne, if he can be a true NT, and if we use him as one, can make the whole defense work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cliffmark1
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On 5/13/2018 at 2:29 AM, skinny21 said:

We all hope Payne becomes/is a dominant pass rusher for us.  Right now though, I’ll take the guy that was 2nd in the NFL in pass pressures by interior linemen before his injury.  

 

No I don't want that.  see above post (why didn't they merge?). 

Edited by Cliffmark1

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Not to nitpick, but if your NT is getting sacks on nearly every pass play, then how is your 3/4 failing?  Obviously the NT needs to contain 2 OL, but if he can do that and get sacks, you don't tell him not to get sacks.

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12 hours ago, GothSkinsFan said:

Not to nitpick, but if your NT is getting sacks on nearly every pass play, then how is your 3/4 failing? 

Probably because an unbelievable number of sacks for a season for a NT would be ten. So, if the NT gets ten sacks a year, but loses contain on a bunch of the other 1600 snaps plays because he is forgoing responsibilities to get to the QB, then the NT looks good and the defense suffers. Sacks from the nose tackle are bonuses not what you look for first.

Edited by Burgold
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2 hours ago, Burgold said:

Probably because an unbelievable number of snaps for a season for a NT would be ten. So, if the NT gets ten sacks a year, but loses contain on a bunch of the other 1600 snaps plays because he is forgoing responsibilities to get to the QB, then the NT looks good and the defense suffers. Sacks from the nose tackle are bonuses not what you look for first.

Ok, now I'm going to nitpick: if your NT gets only 10 snaps a season, you are running a 4-3.  You meant sacks.  I get what you are saying and we are in accord.  Clearly, you don't want your NT to NOT get sacks if he is otherwise doing his job.

Edited by GothSkinsFan

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2 hours ago, Cliffmark1 said:

 

No I don't want that.  see above post (why didn't they merge?). 

Haven’t read your other post yet, aside from the intro (looking forward to it though), but mine was in response to the opinion that Payne is easily a better pass rusher than Ioannidas.  

 

Edit:  Ok I read it... but I don’t agree with the idea that you don’t want your NTs to get sacks.  I do agree that it shouldn’t be their primary goal.  

Edited by skinny21
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Kind of feels like we're making this debate too complicated.  On passing downs, you want your nose to get pressure.  On run downs, you want him to control his gap(s).  There are situational exceptions:

- have to play some containment on pass downs against running QBs

- sometimes you want to shoot gaps on run downs against certain blocking schemes in order to alter the PoA.

 

But, generally, pressure is the goal against the pass and containment the goal against the run.  Sacks from the NT position are nice.  But most teams don't have guys with the overlapping skillsets and the stamina to have a good pass rusher at the NT position.

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4 hours ago, Cliffmark1 said:

Reading all of the above posts that worry about D Payne's ability to get "sacks'n'stuff" makes me realize people haven't really understood the 3/4 and why we have been terrible on Defense since the switch.  You don't want a NT to get sacks or pressures in the vast majority of situations (more below), you want an NT to take out two OL. 

 

It's not that 3/4s don't work, they do, but the job of the 3/4 lineman isn't the same as a 4/3. I actually prefer a 4/3 and think we would have won a few more games every year running a 4/3 but that is a different post.  In general in a 4/3 you want every DL to be able to make plays, in terms of rushing the QB but that is not the case in a 3/4. If you want your NT to get pressure or sacks the 3/4 fails.

 

We honestly don't want D Payne to get any sacks or any pressures (unless its a complete collapse, the QBs is being forced from the pocket forward or they only use one blocker on the NT).  We want an NT, D Payne, to occupy two interior o lineman every single play.  I'm not sure where DP would have gone in the draft if we didn't get him but it seems like he is both willing and able to play as an NT, that is selflessly taking out two OL at the expense of personal stats which isn't necessarily a given (see AH). 

 

If the NT can be blocked 1-1 the 3/4 fails and that has been the case every single year we have run the 3/4.  We don't really even want the NT to push the LOS back, we just want him to keep two OL occupied at all times.   If the NT rushes the QB and doesn't draw two blockers the 3/4 fails. 

 

The idea is you take one interior lineman and you say don't go after the qb, take up two OL every play, there will be cases where you want the NT to play almost like a blocker to occupy two OL so they can't block LBs on certain run plays.  If D Payne can take out two OL every play the team has dramatically improved and the defensive scheme may work.  If the NT can't occupy 2 OL during run plays (basically blocking them) the 3/4 fails

 

NT seems like an unimportant position if you don't try to get stats, but it's actually the cornerstone of the whole philosophy the 3/4 is built on, if your NT doesn't take out two OL the whole 3/4 fails, and in reality our defense has been a failure since the switch.  Getting D Payne, if he can be a true NT, and if we use him as one, can make the whole defense work.

 

 

This is a hilariously simplistic take on the 3-4 and completely ignores a couple of things:

 

1) There are many flavors of 3-4. When we're in a 3-4 base we very rarely play a 2 gap Okie style. Ours is predicated much more on 1 gapping where the DL are attacking and getting into the backfield rather than just soaking up blockers. When in a true 3-4 base we play more of a 1 gap 3-4 Under where the NT is shaded off of the center. Many different styles of 3-4 and if executed correctly they can all work well...otherwise they wouldn't all be used so much (actually the pure 2 gapping Okie fronts aren't used all that much anymore due to the nature of how passing-centric the NFL game is now).

 

2) We're only in a 3-4 base about 30% of the time anyway. Much more of the time we're in nickel, closer to a 4-3, or a hybrid thereof. Unless we for some reason decide to convert to a 2 gap front and stay in 3-4 almost all the time then on lots of snaps Payne is going to be expected to do more than just soak up blockers. 

 

But you're totally right. If your NT is getting sacks, TFLs, and pressures your 3-4 completely fails. Someone should have informed the Cowboys of that when they were running a dominant 1 gap penetrating 3-4 all of those years with Jay Ratliff at NT getting a good amount of pressures and sacks. In fact, someone needs to call Ratliff and tell him he was a horrible Nose Tackle and that he should hang his head in shame.

Edited by mistertim
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12 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Kind of feels like we're making this debate too complicated.  On passing downs, you want your nose to get pressure.  On run downs, you want him to control his gap(s).  There are situational exceptions:

- have to play some containment on pass downs against running QBs

- sometimes you want to shoot gaps on run downs against certain blocking schemes in order to alter the PoA.

 

But, generally, pressure is the goal against the pass and containment the goal against the run.  Sacks from the NT position are nice.  But most teams don't have guys with the overlapping skillsets and the stamina to have a good pass rusher at the NT position.

 

Which is pretty much what Payne did at Alabama. He just wasn't especially effective at the second part until the national championship. If you watch his cutups you'll see him at 0 or 1 tech on most run downs then move to 3 tech on quite a few passing downs and try to get into the backfield, though he sometimes still did just soak up blockers on passing downs as a 0, 1, or 2 tech. But he definitely had plenty of times where he was trying to shoot his gap in various situations.

Edited by mistertim

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1 hour ago, GothSkinsFan said:

Ok, now I'm going to nitpick: if your NT gets only 10 snaps a season, you are running a 4-3.  You meant sacks.  I get what you are saying and we are in accord.  Clearly, you don't want your NT to NOT get sacks if he is otherwise doing his job.

Whoops. Yeah... ten sacks. 

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10 hours ago, bird_1972 said:

 

Do you (or anyone else in the thread) envision Payne and Settle being on the field at the same time? 

 

Maybe for first down in anticipation of run play?

I think you can look for Gruden and company to mix it up given the talent in our division at RB -  Elliott and Barkley to start.  But on 3rd or 4th in 1 definitely they should both be on the field.   But I agree with some of the other posters that there is added value if Payne becomes better at getting to the QB. 

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