Welcome to the Washington Redskins Da'Ron Payne DT Alabama

[TSO]

15 hours ago, SkinsFootball said:

@thesubmittedone The signing of Mcphee illustrates a defensive that is open to utilizing an OLB as an interior rusher. Could Anderson utilize his natural strength and leverage to push the interior pocket on a rotational basis? I don't see why they wouldn't try that out and if he needs anyone to look at then Mcphee could be the example.(Ravens) Our OLB depth is interesting as I feel as if Anderson could perhaps develop into a Ryan Kerrigan type. SOLB that wins on technique, effort and strength. The problem is Kerrigan will probably be here for awhile and on the other side we ideally would like to draft a speed edge rusher. What adds to the intrigue is the Preston Smith contract situation. Does the benefit of an consistent interior push and his continued development allow him to hit the +14 sack mark? Does that validate giving him a big pay day or draft his replacement? Given the pending extension of the Scherff I think decision with be Crowder or Smith but not both.

 

You’ve got me as to what it’s about, if anything.

 

It could mean absolutely nothing and it’s just a way for the youngest OLB on the team (well, the youngest one really expected to be relied upon) to get more out of practice. 

 

Either way, it’s something to watch.  

[Darrell Green Fan]

On 5/24/2018 at 10:38 AM, Stefanskins said:

we are going to get so many no calls on being held...Kerrigan would be the all-time sack leader if they'd call just a third of the holds against him...

 

Rak too. I never understood the hate for Rak.   OK so he was not Damarcus Ware  but he was still a good player and was held constantly. When he pointed it out he was tagged a complainer.  

[Skinsinparadise]

On the McPhee signing.  Just from watching some on and off coaches film.  It seems like Manusky liked to use Anderson/Galette sometimes together to give Kerrigan/Smith a breather.  Anderson usually played on the left with Galette on the right.  Sometimes they came in separately.

 

But I'd guess McPhee mostly a sub on the right for Preston. Here are some clips of the Redskins defense on third and long  (3 and 8 and beyond).  They like to rush sometimes their MLBs up the A gap.  Sometimes they have their pass DT pass rusher playing 0-1 in those situations.  Or bring a pass rusher inside as you can see in that first clip with Preston -- so McPhee is a big dude for a pass rusher so maybe they add him or Anderson to play inside -- on some pass rushing situations like how the Giants used to use Tuck.

 

If you just slow the tape and watch the D line and their alignments.  Somethings stood out to me.  Among them:

 

Preston Smith is better than his 8 sacks, he's a handful for the OT to deal with.  The QB feels him. 

 

Manusky does change it up some but by and large likes to keep players on the right or left consistently -- so when Allen played, he's just about always on the right,  Ionnaidis just about always on the left, etc.  McGee mostly on the left.    

 

In the spots I've watched Ryan Anderson -- the dude was "meh".  He made really hardly any impact, RT just swallowed the dude too much or he just didn't find himself into the action.  It makes me wonder about some of the rap on him with his short arms, not much speed for the position, etc.   Reading about he's in shape this off season and is redoubling his efforts -- that's good because I don't love what I see from the dude so far. 

 

AJ Francis not bad in his limited stints, he played with energy, good against the run.  He looked better to me than Hood. 

 

Manusky really really likes to rush a MLB on 3rd and long, sometimes both of them.  Makes me see why an insider suggested that Jay wanted Edmonds.  As to Edmonds if he is what some think -- wow having a weapon like that rushing in a 2 point stance up the A gap.

 

They really don't play 3-4 a heck of a lot.  It's more noticeable when you start charting plays -- at least of the games I've done.  They don't even start every game in base.  Sometimes they came out in 4-3.  As to how this relates to Payne?  Not sure.  But he won't be playing a heck of a lot of 0 if they play in the same schemes I've watched so far.  In 4-3 I've noticed, Manusky has the two tackles often playing right up against the guards. 

 

 

 

They like to use the linebackers

 

 

[Tarpon75]

12 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Rak too. I never understood the hate for Rak.   OK so he was not Damarcus Ware  but he was still a good player and was held constantly. When he pointed it out he was tagged a complainer.  

I think the fact that Rak missed so much time due to injury soured people on him.He did have some good seasons in DC though.It is truly incredible how he and Kerrigan were held so frequently without a flag.

[Darrell Green Fan]

3 minutes ago, Tarpon75 said:

I think the fact that Rak missed so much time due to injury soured people on him.He did have some good seasons in DC though.It is truly incredible how he and Kerrigan were held so frequently without a flag.

 

Yeah that was a lot of it for sure. But being hurt and not being the dominant pass rusher we expected should not mean people should ignore the obvious holding calls. I mean he got grabbed around the neck constantly and for some reasons some fans never wanted to acknowledge it, instead labeled him a complainer for speaking the truth. 

[Skinsinparadise]

To follow up a little on my last post.  Rams open a drive first and 10.  Redskins are in a 4-3.  When Allen was playing, they liked to have him and Ionnadis often in. Lined up often in 2-3.  I circle Ionnadis with the thought if they want to give Ionnaidis a breather, I think that's where you might see Payne at times in the 4-3 or subbing for Allen. 

 

The Rams get no gain.  Now 2nd and 10.  Just about the same 4-3 formation.

 

 

 

Rams then get a first down.  They go hurry up I gather because they see the Redskins substituting, Rams did that multiple times in the game.  Now they are in the base 3-4.  Hood playing 0 like he typically does.  He's typically either straight 0 or he is at 0-shade left.  McGee is playing on the left side (from the point of view of the defense, on the screen he's on our right), McClain on the right.    As for Payne, I'd presume he'd come in here at nose and that would be his typical role.   McGee stays on the left.  As for the right?  Not sure.  Hood maybe if he stays?   Settle?

 

I use to have in my head that Allen plays in both the 3-4, 4-3 formation.  But from what i am watching that's not always so.   And coming off an injury, I wonder if they'd be careful to avoid wearing him down.  

 

 

 

[Tarpon75]

1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Yeah that was a lot of it for sure. But being hurt and not being the dominant pass rusher we expected should not mean people should ignore the obvious holding calls. I mean he got grabbed around the neck constantly and for some reasons some fans never wanted to acknowledge it, instead labeled him a complainer for speaking the truth. 

I can remember so many times hollering at the TV over those non-calls. I do however, remember one that they actually did call against the Cowboys for holding Orakpo.That call negated what would have been a game winning touchdown for Dallas. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

33 minutes ago, Tarpon75 said:

I can remember so many times hollering at the TV over those non-calls. I do however, remember one that they actually did call against the Cowboys for holding Orakpo.That call negated what would have been a game winning touchdown for Dallas. 

 

I was just thinking about that game the other day.  Must have been an early season game as we were at the beach. When the TD happened I thought "same old Redskins". 

[HTTRDynasty]

"I really think we're going to be a dominant defense," Allen said. "If we can stay healthy and do what I know we can, there's nothing stopping us."

 

https://pro32.ap.org/article/alabama-line-payne-joins-allen-help-redskins-stop-run

[Commander -JB-]

3 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Rak too. I never understood the hate for Rak.   OK so he was not Damarcus Ware  but he was still a good player and was held constantly. When he pointed it out he was tagged a complainer.  

He was always hurt.  

[NickyJ]

4 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I was just thinking about that game the other day.  Must have been an early season game as we were at the beach. When the TD happened I thought "same old Redskins". 

It was our first game of the season in 2010. I don't think Alex Barron ever did live it down. Wikipedia says he never saw the field again for the Cowboys lol

 

1 hour ago, -JB- said:

He was always hurt.  

Except for 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2013. He got injured in 12 and 14, and hasn't been injured since. But yeah, he got season ending injuries in 2 years of his career. What a bust.

[skinny21]

@SkinsinparadiseYeah, I always thought of Allen and Ioannidas as our DTs (if not purely so).  

 

In the 34, assuming Payne man’s the middle and McGee stays at RDE, I think they’ll have some flexibility there.  For one, Hood is better suited at LDE than NT, and then there’s the chance at Settle or Lanier playing that role.  As of now, I see Lanier as a situational player, but surrounded by good run defenders, they could risk starting him there.  More of a chance at this if he shows some progress vs the run.  

 

Really like the blend of Hood (experience), Settle (potential and gap shooter), and Lanier (pass rusher) manning the LDE spot, as well as rotating in for the others.  

 

I’m thinking Payne and Settle will be our rotational DTs.  

 

Could be wrong about most of that, but that’s my guess as of now.   

[OVCChairman]

On 6/2/2018 at 2:50 PM, skinny21 said:

@SkinsinparadiseYeah, I always thought of Allen and Ioannidas as our DTs (if not purely so).  

 

In the 34, assuming Payne man’s the middle and McGee stays at RDE, I think they’ll have some flexibility there.  For one, Hood is better suited at LDE than NT, and then there’s the chance at Settle or Lanier playing that role.  As of now, I see Lanier as a situational player, but surrounded by good run defenders, they could risk starting him there.  More of a chance at this if he shows some progress vs the run.  

 

Really like the blend of Hood (experience), Settle (potential and gap shooter), and Lanier (pass rusher) manning the LDE spot, as well as rotating in for the others.  

 

I’m thinking Payne and Settle will be our rotational DTs.  

 

Could be wrong about most of that, but that’s my guess as of now.   

 

 

I would actually look at Settle as more the NT position and Payne as a flex DT / End depending on the alignment.  Obviously Settle has a ways to go before he's playing a bunch of snaps in a game, but the thought of 

 

Ioannidis / Payne / Settle / Allen when we have 4 down linemen  and Payne / Settle / Allen when we have 3 really gets me curious when the situation dictates it.  Need beef for specific plays?  It would appear we may have it.  

[Skinsinparadise]

37 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@SkinsinparadiseYeah, I always thought of Allen and Ioannidas as our DTs (if not purely so).  

 

In the 34, assuming Payne man’s the middle and McGee stays at RDE, I think they’ll have some flexibility there.  For one, Hood is better suited at LDE than NT, and then there’s the chance at Settle or Lanier playing that role.  As of now, I see Lanier as a situational player, but surrounded by good run defenders, they could risk starting him there.  More of a chance at this if he shows some progress vs the run.  

 

Really like the blend of Hood (experience), Settle (potential and gap shooter), and Lanier (pass rusher) manning the LDE spot, as well as rotating in for the others.  

 

I’m thinking Payne and Settle will be our rotational DTs.  

 

Could be wrong about most of that, but that’s my guess as of now.   

 

Looks like judging by early last season.  Their ideal 4-3 set was  LDE Kerrigan LDT Ionnaidis RDT Allen  RDE P. Smith.   Then 3-4 would switch to: LDT McGee NT Hood RDT McClain.

 

It's funny not only wasn't the 3-4 really that prevalent but it seemed like it was used as the breather for Allen and Ionnaidis.   The stalwarts at 3-4 were Hood playing 0 and McGee 3-4-5 usually on the left.   I am guessing McGee stays on the left in the 3-4. Hood is replaced by Payne playing 0.  And if Hood is retained -- he's moved to DE on the right side or maybe Settle there?  Hood was the one guy who really played all over the line last year after guys starting getting hurt.  Right DE, Left DE.  0-1.  Played in the 4-3.  3-4.  I am not a big Hood guy personally.  But the way they used him it wouldn't surprise me if he's kept around because of his verstaility and veteran leadership with all the young guys they have.  

 

But if you watch them play 3-4 -- "meh".     You can gash them on the ground (especially up the gut and to the left) and they bring little pressure.  

 

So I'd guess Payne's value is this.  In theory at least giving juice to a mostly ho hum 3-4 lineup.  Giving an occasional sub to the 4-3 defense.  And helping on goal line/short yardage.  I'd presume he will mostly play 0 and some 2-3.  

 

Hard for me to see how Settle doesn't play R-DE in 3-4 packages.  It just adds up with McGee seemingly Manusky's go to guy on the left on the 3-4.  Unless they interchange Payne and Settle from nose to R-DE.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I would actually look at Settle as more the NT position and Payne as a flex DT / End depending on the alignment.  Obviously Settle has a ways to go before he's starting every game, but the thought of 

 

Ioannidis / Payne / Settle / Allen when we have 4 down linemen  and Payne / Settle / Allen when we have 3 really gets me curious.  

 

It's interesting though when you just sit there and watch Manusky's lineup play after play after play.  I am no scout or football expert but its hard to miss what he's thinking just by watching the permutations in the lineup and compare to down and distance.

 

I'll start with I'd be stunned if we see a 4-3 like you laid out.  Kerrgian-Preston are just about a given at end when they go 4-3.    So its just about always from what i've noticed thus far -- two traditional DT types and two DE-pass rushers playing 4-3.

 

They go for the beef in 3-4.  With the traditional 3 down lineman.  I'd presume that's when you mostly see Payne and Settle.  

 

Manusky can get exotic at times on third and long.  Then you sometimes see Ionnaidis, Lanier, Allen play 1.  Middle linebackers sometimes add to the rush from the A gap.  Sometimes a pass rusher plays inside.   Sometimes the pass rushers double up on one side and or you got 3 guys coming off the edges.  

 

At least from what I've seen so far -- Manusky isn't a load up on coverage on third and long guy like some teams do.  At least from the games I watched.  He instead is rushing 5 or 6 or he goes with a traditional 4-3 lineup and plays it straight.

 

As for Settle at NT.  I admit I haven't watched Settle at all.  But I noticed some of his critics in terms of being a traditional nose say he's more of a DE in a 3-4 than a traditional nose because of how he plays and that his weakness supposedly is that his balance isn't always that hot so he can find himself on the ground too much.  The description of him gives me more of a McGee vibe -- a big running stuffing DE as opposed to a nose.  But who knows.  He definitely has the girth to play 0-1 and some see him that way.  I got to watch some of his games and land on my own opinion on him. 

 

Teams seem to do very well against the defense on third and short when they run.  Maybe in those situations you go 4 DTs.  Goal line situations, too.

 

 

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I would actually look at Settle as more the NT position and Payne as a flex DT / End depending on the alignment.  Obviously Settle has a ways to go before he's starting every game, but the thought of 

 

Ioannidis / Payne / Settle / Allen when we have 4 down linemen  and Payne / Settle / Allen when we have 3 really gets me curious.  

 

Ioannidis and Allen at DE in a 4-3 makes zero sense to me. Both of those guys are classic 3 tech 3-4 DE/4-3 DTs. Neither has the speed or flexibility to bend the edge and get around Tackles as a 5 tech sort of player like Kerrigan or Smith do; IMO it would be a waste of their talents. I remember when Bama tried to sometimes use Allen as a 5 tech DE and he was noticeably less effective on those snaps than when he was inside as a 3 tech where he always caused havoc. 

[NickyJ]

I got a little lost here, why do we want to change to a 4-3 now that we finally have the personnel needed to run a 3-4? Did I miss something?

[HTTRDynasty]

10 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

I got a little lost here, why do we want to change to a 4-3 now that we finally have the personnel needed to run a 3-4? Did I miss something?

 

I'm pretty sure @Skinsinparadise is referring to a 4-2-5 (Nickel) when he says 4-3 in the posts above.

[skinny21]

@SkinsinparadiseI’m with you - I was just always under the impression that a defense’s left or right was based on viewing it from the offensive side of the ball (ie, Kerrigan would be our RDE even though he plays of the left side of the defense)... if that makes any sense.  

 

So, my point was that I agree McGee would stay put, and Settle/Hood/Lanier would play on the other side.  As someone said, it’s possible Settle man’s the NT spot instead (subbing in for Payne there?), though there probably aren’t enough snaps in the 34 for that.

 

Depending on how this offseason goes, I could even see Payne playing DT ahead of Ioannidas on 1st downs.  Ioannidas appears to be a much better pass rusher than run stopper, and Payne is the opposite (though might be more balanced depending on which Payne we get).  

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I'm pretty sure @Skinsinparadise is referring to a 4-2-5 (Nickel) when he says 4-3 in the posts above.

 

Thanks. Yes, that's a good correction.  I am focused on the 4 up front -- not the LBs.    But yeah its just Foster and Brown playing MLB.  Nickel corner in -- Fuller.   Most teams play 11 a lot -- 3 receiver sets.  So like it or not, you aren't playing a lot of 3-4.  

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@SkinsinparadiseI’m with you - I was just always under the impression that a defense’s left or right was based on viewing it from the offensive side of the ball (ie, Kerrigan would be our RDE even though he plays of the left side of the defense)... if that makes any sense.  

 

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2008/5/28/541208/football-explained-right-d

The right defensive end in a 4-3 plays opposite the offensive left tackle. 

 

25 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

 

So, my point was that I agree McGee would stay put, and Settle/Hood/Lanier would play on the other side.  As someone said, it’s possible Settle man’s the NT spot instead (subbing in for Payne there?), though there probably aren’t enough snaps in the 34 for that.

 

Settle subbing for Payne, I can see that.  But I think Payne has the NT spot.  And they don't play enough 3-4 where I think you need much subbing.  Hood for example was just about always manning the nose with an occasional exception of the games I watched.

 

25 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

 

Depending on how this offseason goes, I could even see Payne playing DT ahead of Ioannidas on 1st downs.  Ioannidas appears to be a much better pass rusher than run stopper, and Payne is the opposite (though might be more balanced depending on which Payne we get).  

 

I think it depends on the formation the opponents come out in.  In my head in theory, I used to have run type of formation on first down out of the gate.   But watching it play out teams are really all over the place on it.  Even if they ultimately run on first down sometimes they do it out of a spread formation.

 

 As much as I think they want to stop the run I think they value the pass rush more.   So especially in the 4-3, I'd be surprised if we saw much of Payne.  But who knows?

 

Actually watching formation after formation it makes me understand better Cooley's lack of fascination with getting a pure run stopping DT and instead has a major preference for a DT who can do it all.   You are in nickel so much and heck teams are also willing to run in nickel especially on us. 

[skinny21]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2008/5/28/541208/football-explained-right-d

The right defensive end in a 4-3 plays opposite the offensive left tackle. 

Thanks man!

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Settle subbing for Payne, I can see that.  But I think Payne has the NT spot.  And they don't play enough 3-4 where I think you need much subbing.  Hood for example was just about always manning the nose with an occasional exception of the games I watched.

 

Right, my assumption as well (as I said). 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think it depends on the formation the opponents come out in.  In my head in theory, I used to have run type of formation on first down out of the gate.   But watching it play out teams are really all over the place on it.  Even if they ultimately run on first down sometimes they do it out of a spread formation.

Right there with you.  

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 As much as I think they want to stop the run I think they value the pass rush more.   So especially in the 4-3, I'd be surprised if we saw much of Payne.  But who knows?

Well, I think he’s gonna sub there for Io and give us a 0/1 tech that can help more vs the run.  As I said, it might depend on how much pass rush they see from him in TC.  They need Allen and Io to rest and I think Payne and Settle are the guys to give it to them.  

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Actually watching formation after formation it makes me understand better Cooley's lack of fascination with getting a pure run stopping DT and instead has a major preference for a DT who can do it all.   You are in nickel so much and heck teams are also willing to run in nickel especially on us. 

Yep.  This was why I liked the idea of Hankins - can play some 0/1, but probably better as a 3 tech DT.  I have hope for Payne there though (probably a smidge more than you, but I’m pretty much aligned with you on the whole Payne situation), as well as Settle, but we’ll see how it plays out.  Tall order for them to excel from the get go, but Allen seemed to.  

[Anselmheifer]

Our DL was doing pretty great last year before we were struck by injury. I imagine our base 4-3 would look like Kerrigan-Ioannidis-Allen-Smith and that Payne would be our starting nose. I think we will see plenty of Payne however subbing in as a base 4-3 DT. I suspect his snap count to be just below that of Ioannidis and Allen this year. He'll probably see the third most snaps on the DL. 

 

FWIW, the DL with the highest on field percentage last year was Ioaniidis, who played just over 53% of our defensive snaps. I think that means there are plenty of snaps to split between Payne, Allen, and Ioannidis. 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/was/2017-snap-counts.htm

[TSO]

7 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I'm pretty sure @Skinsinparadise is referring to a 4-2-5 (Nickel) when he says 4-3 in the posts above.

 

Yup. You could argue that’s really our base formation. 

 

The (totally legit) presumption is that it’s simply a counter to offenses coming out in 11 personnel or the like. That we’re just matching. 

 

But I wonder how much of that has been due to a lack of solid 3-4 Dlinemen instead? Will we be seeing more of it now regardless of what offenses are doing because we’ve got a more legit rotation of bodies there? 

 

@Skinsinparadise care to totally be a psycho for us and chart what formations offenses lined up in when we were in our 4-2-5? No pressure.  

[TSO]

10 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Hard for me to see how Settle doesn't play R-DE in 3-4 packages.  It just adds up with McGee seemingly Manusky's go to guy on the left on the 3-4.  Unless they interchange Payne and Settle from nose to R-DE.

 

Yeah, my guess would be, assuming Settle manages to become a significant contributor, that Payne would bounce out to DE and Settle would be the Nose in a 3-4 lineup. 

 

Payne’s athleticism alone makes him more versatile, and Settle’s size and girth is perfect for the nose. 

 

But there’s an enticing amount of run stopping ability between the three of McGee, Settle and Payne being on the field at the same time. That might be the biggest front we’ve ever had since we went to the 3-4. Well, we did have Baker and Knighton at one point, but I think the smaller Hatcher was starting alongside them in base. 

 

Either way there’s a lot of size there. 

 

If the question I posed above has any legitimacy to it, and they’re looking to line up in base more, I could easily envision McGee becoming less involved in it and instead Allen or Ioannidis taking his role there, providing for more of a pass rushing threat and just making the front more multi-dimensional. 

 

But this all assumes Settle pans out.