Welcome to the Washington Redskins Da'Ron Payne DT Alabama

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

Which is pretty much what Payne did at Alabama. He just wasn't especially effective at the second part until the national championship. If you watch his cutups you'll see him at 0 or 1 tech on most run downs then move to 3 tech on quite a few passing downs and try to get into the backfield, though he sometimes still did just soak up blockers on passing downs as a 0, 1, or 2 tech. But he definitely had plenty of times where he was trying to shoot his gap in various situations.

 

It wasn't just the NC game that Payne was getting pressure.  He was a lot more consistent at generating pressure then you're making him out to be.

[Cliffmark1]

3 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

This is a hilariously simplistic take on the 3-4 and completely ignores a couple of things:

 

1) There are many flavors of 3-4. When we're in a 3-4 base we very rarely play a 2 gap Okie style. Ours is predicated much more on 1 gapping where the DL are attacking and getting into the backfield rather than just soaking up blockers. When in a true 3-4 base we play more of a 1 gap 3-4 Under where the NT is shaded off of the center. Many different styles of 3-4 and if executed correctly they can all work well...otherwise they wouldn't all be used so much (actually the pure 2 gapping Okie fronts aren't used all that much anymore due to the nature of how passing-centric the NFL game is now).

 

2) We're only in a 3-4 base about 30% of the time anyway. Much more of the time we're in nickel, closer to a 4-3, or a hybrid thereof. Unless we for some reason decide to convert to a 2 gap front and stay in 3-4 almost all the time then on lots of snaps Payne is going to be expected to do more than just soak up blockers. 

 

But you're totally right. If your NT is getting sacks, TFLs, and pressures your 3-4 completely fails. Someone should have informed the Cowboys of that when they were running a dominant 1 gap penetrating 3-4 all of those years with Jay Ratliff at NT getting a good amount of pressures and sacks. In fact, someone needs to call Ratliff and tell him he was a horrible Nose Tackle and that he should hang his head in shame.

 

 

1) Let's just get this out there, are you saying the redskins are running an effective defense?  Seriously is that what you're saying because it doesn't matter what the redskins run, they have been objectively terrible on D since Shanny. 

 

This point really doesn't have anything to do with mine, my point is the redskins haven't been able to run a 3/4 properly because they lack a true NT you say we only run some out of the 3/4 well yeah that's because we haven't had a true NT to take to OL out of every play.  You get that then the rest of the D should have mismatches and you get athletic LBs and some ability to rush from different areas then you have a real theroetical advantage of the 3/4.  I'll prove this later but let's get into theory.  I studied physics and math right, you don't model things perfectly you simplify them to test certain things, there are so many variables that to you need to simplify things to get a good measurement on a single issue. Right now its about what you really want from a 3/4 NT and its not a ton of sacks.  You want him to take out two (or 3) OL in every play.  

 

People arguing that DP can't finish would be like arguing that Trent needs to score more TDs. 

 

2) I think that there is quite a bit of support for my post and that it follows the basic theory of the 3/4.  Can you draw up some plays or run some other bases or have a Bill B. type of play that has an OL score a TD, sure, but that isn't the basics of the position. The basic desire of the NT in the 3/4 is to take two OL out of the game. 

 

Let's look at some of Bleacher Report's "Top Nose Tackles" at NT and see how many sacks they get (again this is just theoretical I don't care about any of the indepth gap **** right now, this is establishing the basis of a 3/4).

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2650890-lost-in-the-trenches-nfls-top-nose-tackles-deserve-more-credit 

 

1) Brandon Williams  has a career total of 4.5 sacks, 0 in 17 and 1 in 16.  

 

2) Damon Harrison 1.5 sacks in 17 2.5 sacks in 16, that's about what you want from pocket collapses or the QB stepping up in the pocket.  That is what a NT should do.  Contain and take out two maybe 3 OL.

 

3) Dan Williams, 3.5 career sacks listed as a standout NT by BR,

 

BR doesn't think getting sacks is a big part of a NT's job therefore isn't what we should be debating what D Payne can do.  D Paynes job is to play a 3/4 nose tackle which BR doesn't think you need to get sacks to do to be a standout. If we brought DP here to play anything but NT than I would think the pick is wasted. 

 

I'd love to see some articles where sacks are said to be a big part of a NT job on a 3/4 defense.  I've never seen one, so it'd be nice to see that.  

 

Jay Ratliff You talk about individual stats, my point is that the team defense wasn't good for the redskins under the 3/4 you're bringing up Ratliff is more or less completely non-sequitar at best, at worst it proves my point.  4 years he played he had more than 4 sacks 7 he had less.  JR in his best year had 7.5 sacks, the cowboys went 9-7 and were ranked 8th in total defense, 9th in rushing defense. JR second best year had 6 sacks 2009, cowboys did a bit better at 11-5 but were ranked 9th in total defense and 20th in passing defense.  6.5 sacks in 2014 and the bears go 5-11 and the bears are 30th in total defense.  

 

otoh Vince Wilfork is considered by many to be one of the best prototypical Nose Tackles in modern NFL, his best year was 3.5 sacks he also had a touchdown that year.  Getting a TD is nice but it isn't his position. 

 

Vince Wilfork didn't get many sacks, the Patriots were dominant in the time he was a NT.  If getting sacks was the job of a NT, VW wouldn't be doing his job and as one of the most important positions on D you would imagine that the Patriots would not have success however, they had great success, therefore getting sacks is not the goal or priority of a NT.  Not in synthetic points or yards, but in actual team outcomes the Patriots out performed almost every other team during VW tenure (I bet they had the best record during his tenure but I can't find a source and won't say they are without one). 

 

• 2004 he had 2 sacks in regular season and 0 in post season, they won the SB.
• 2005 VW gets .5 sacks in reg season and .5 in post season, he's on a super bowl winning team.
• 2007 undefeated regular season 2 sacks in regular season 0 in post.   

 

If getting sacks was important for the NT position wouldn't Jay Ratliff and his team's and D's outperform Vince Wilforks?  

 

I'm surprised you are arguing this, you're often pro-redskins, and basically I'm saying D Payne could be a beast at NT and it doesn't matter if he gets sacks or his lack of sacks because that isn't his required of a NT. 

 

If you were to respond to this post I think you should clarify if you think getting sacks is an important part of the NT and please if possible provide some sources that support that, imho, tenuous claim. Or just you know add some more reasoning beyond one player, just for my curiosity to see your line of thinking. 

 

If you really wanted to persuade me beyond curiosity of thought process, I'd love to see some sort of statistical correlation of NT sacks to team performance, because from the little I have seen it's an inverse relationship above 5 regular season sacks.

 

 

 

 

[Cliffmark1]

3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Kind of feels like we're making this debate too complicated.  On passing downs, you want your nose to get pressure.  On run downs, you want him to control his gap(s).  There are situational exceptions:

- have to play some containment on pass downs against running QBs

- sometimes you want to shoot gaps on run downs against certain blocking schemes in order to alter the PoA.

 

But, generally, pressure is the goal against the pass and containment the goal against the run.  Sacks from the NT position are nice.  But most teams don't have guys with the overlapping skillsets and the stamina to have a good pass rusher at the NT position.

 

 

I agree you need to have some pressure to draw the blocks, so you have to be able to generate it.  Payne has to be accounted for he is too big and too fast.  I think of it in terms of players not gaps, you want the NT to take out two to three players on every play how you do that is sort of the method not necessarily the telos.  

 

I'd rather my nose tackle take three OL blockers then have a sack or a tackle.  To me that is over-performing the goal of a NT and statistically over time the team should do better with the NT taking more blockers than any other individual measurement such as pressures, tackles, sacks. The KPI of a NT is how many blockers and OL he takes out of a play.  There may be some variance of when he takes them on and if it happens at crucial times, but in general I would bet that would be the best performance indicator of a NT.  

[mistertim]

@Cliffmark1

 

No, I'm not saying we have run a good defense, and our run defense was very bad because we haven't had enough talent on the DL and at the NT position (and because of injuries last year) but that has nothing to do with the point I made about OUR 3-4. We don't generally run a 2 gapping system. We run a 1 gap system which usually included the NT. Sure, he'll be asked to take on doubles sometimes but in general in a 3-4 Under 1 gap system you don't necessarily look for the 340 lb unmovable behemoth because a decent amount of the time you have your guys shooting gaps so you want a guy who's more athletic and nimble. 

 

Your entire point seemed to be that we are bad because we don't have a NT who is there to successfully do nothing but soak up multiple blockers. I'm saying that we don't really run that kind of 3-4 (when we're in our 3-4 formation) and the problem is that we just had **** talent at that position in general. I don't argue that we need an NT, but I do argue that in our 3-4 our NT is going to probably be attacking gaps and trying to get into the backfield much more than somewhere like the Pats who run a more old school Okie 2 gap 3-4 (or at least used to). 

 

I'm arguing that your entire premise is off base because it isn't even related to the type of defense we run. It's like saying that a team's issue in the secondary is that they don't have an elite bump and run man cover corner when the team in question actually almost always runs a cover 2 out of their base defense. 

 

So I think Payne is going to be asked to eat up blockers sometimes but he's also likely going to be expected to attack gaps much more often than he did in college because of the kind of 3-4 we use. In addition, my other point that we only run our base 3-4 about 30% of the time means that he will quite often not even be at that "prototypical" 0 tech NT position. We run lots of nickel and 4-3 or Bear based stuff as well which means, especially on passing downs, he'll likely be used sometimes in a 3 tech sort of role, or a shade 1 tech where he's meant to be shooting the A or B gap to create pressure. He might still get doubled but that's the other team doing that on their own, not the scheme itself. 

 

As I mentioned in response to @stevemcqueen1, Alabama actually used a ton of different fronts, especially on passing downs...though their base 3-4 is much more 2 gap LOS control than ours is. So he won't be unfamiliar with it. He just might be tasked with improving his pass rush technique so he can be a better finisher though @stevemcqueen1made a valid point that he still did get pressures...he just needs to hone his technique to where he's more of a finisher as well.

 

Anyway, my point is that Payne's job here will not simply be to soak up blockers. No way no how. Even Jay talked about as much in his presser when talking about how they think/hope that he has lots of pass rushing potential but he's still young.  

[mistertim]

Also, @Cliffmark1, I apologize if I came off as snarky. I do have a tendency to sound that way when I react to something and type before I fully listen to how it sounds. 

[skinny21]

I have a hunch that we might see more two gap play this year.  I don’t mean regularly, but I could see Payne playing, at times, two gaps and the rest of the linemen/OLBs manning 1 gap.  

 

Payne should allow Manusky/Tomsula more versatility, which should be fun to watch.  

 

If Payne is left one on one in passing situations (as teams choose to double Allen or Ioannidas), I think he’s going to be able to make life tougher on the qb in terms of pressure of the middle/collapsing the pocket.  

 

The biggest thing I want to see from Payne (more even than a pass rush), is pushing toward the POA without getting washed out.  If he can do that, our ILBs are going to love him as he disrupts plays/timing, allowing the backers more time to get to the ball carrier.  If he isn’t getting washed out, he’s going to command more double teams too, keeping the backers cleaner.  

 

Hood played nearly 50% of our defensive snaps... I can’t wait to see Payne eat into that % (assuming Hood makes the roster).  

 

Although I would love for Payne to record TFLs and sacks, if he generates pressures (causing qb mistakes and helping our other rushers and coverage), and helps improve the ypc against us (directly or indirectly), I’m going to be very happy.  If he also makes the splashier plays, I’ll be thrilled.  

[JaxJoe]

Both you guys are right but like @Cliffmark1 says, a 3-4 NT has to, at a minimum, be able to take on two OL. 

 

Fundamentally, in a 3-4 or whenever you only have three DL (call it what you like), they are going against 5 OL. Five OL makes four gaps in between them. So three DL have to disrupt the four gaps. One of the three DL had better be able to help control two gaps long enough for a LB to react to the play. Otherwise the math doesn’t add up. And that DL is typically the NT because he is in the center and the play is either going right or left of center. 

 

So we must, at a minimum, have a NT that can take on two OL. Even better, two DL that can handle two OL. 

 

Now, when we have certain defensive packages where a OLB is rushing the passer or on a run blitz, then ‘yes’ a NT can be a one-gap rusher and as it turns out, we run this package probably more than the traditional 3-4. But even in this scenario it doesn’t mean the NT won’t have to take on two OL because that might be what the blocking assignment is - we don’t know. 

 

This is why I’m not sold on folks calling for a one-gap style 3-4. To me, three DL are helping fill four gaps. One of those DL had better be able to help control two gaps. 

[skinny21]

 

2 hours ago, JaxJoe said:

This is why I’m not sold on folks calling for a one-gap style 3-4. To me, three DL are helping fill four gaps. One of those DL had better be able to help control two gaps. 

Well, it’s not like people are necessarily calling for a 1 gap scheme (or 1 gapping from Payne)... it’s just what we’ve run.  

 

However, as I said earlier, I do have to wonder if Manusky/Tomsula change this up (to an extent) now that they have an actual NT.  I’ll also add that if 2 linemen struggle to prevent Payne reaching the backfield (even if he’s shooting a gap), it makes it tougher for them to combo block and move up to block a backer.  Even if one does manage to block a backer, Payne in the backfield means trouble for their back, and it means coaches have to worry more about doubling him.  In effect, Payne can still play a 1 gap but still draw a double team (i.e. occupy 2 olinemen).  Or that’s my take on it anyway.  

[Koolblue13]

The premise that "if your NT is getting sacks your defense sucks" is just wrong. We run both one and two gap, sometimes even on the same play. Too much is made about the defensive formations we're running. It's constantly changing and evolving, even throughout the game. 

 

Complete hypothetical to address this conversation and definitely exaggerated. What if you have your 4 guys rushing.

 

Kerrigan, Iaon, Payne, Allen every play of the game. Iaon and Allen are having monster games and the other team starts doubling either one of them or both on every play and leaving Payne at Nose to start avoiding contain and just get after the backfield regardless and he's living in the backfield and gets 3 sacks and 8 pressure/hits.

 

Again, disclaimer, complete hypothertical and exaggerated. However, was the defense not working correctly?

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, skinny21 said:

 

Well, it’s not like people are necessarily calling for a 1 gap scheme (or 1 gapping from Payne)... it’s just what we’ve run.  

 

However, as I said earlier, I do have to wonder if Manusky/Tomsula change this up (to an extent) now that they have an actual NT.  I’ll also add that if 2 linemen struggle to prevent Payne reaching the backfield (even if he’s shooting a gap), it makes it tougher for them to combo block and move up to block a backer.  Even if one does manage to block a backer, Payne in the backfield means trouble for their back, and it means coaches have to worry more about doubling him.  In effect, Payne can still play a 1 gap but still draw a double team (i.e. occupy 2 olinemen).  Or that’s my take on it anyway.  

 

I'm actually calling for a 0 gap scheme. After the snap our DL just sort of sit there and do nothing. Our run defense was so bad last year they might as well have been running that scheme.

 

But yeah I actually agree with your premise. If Payne ends up being good enough in a "1 gap" scheme he might still draw doubles anyway when lined up as a 1 tech and shooting one of the A gaps.

[Vanguard]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

The premise that "if your NT is getting sacks your defense sucks" is just wrong. We run both one and two gap, sometimes even on the same play. Too much is made about the defensive formations we're running. It's constantly changing and evolving, even throughout the game. 

 

Complete hypothetical to address this conversation and definitely exaggerated. What if you have your 4 guys rushing.

 

Kerrigan, Iaon, Payne, Allen every play of the game. Iaon and Allen are having monster games and the other team starts doubling either one of them or both on every play and leaving Payne at Nose to start avoiding contain and just get after the backfield regardless and he's living in the backfield and gets 3 sacks and 8 pressure/hits.

 

 

Don't forget Phil Taylor.  He had played well enough to work himself into a starting spot.  He will be coming back off an injury.  But if you add him to the mix.  I don't see why we can't be top ten at stopping the run.

[Koolblue13]

16 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

 

Don't forget Phil Taylor.  He had played well enough to work himself into a starting spot.  He will be coming back off an injury.  But if you add him to the mix.  I don't see why we can't be top ten at stopping the run.

I am firmly in the Big Phil's Knees holding up camp. I was just making an example. If he could somehow play 19 games for us, it would be a major reason why we played that many. 

[skinny21]

Taylor just scares me.  Well, his health does anyway.  With that said, if he’s healthy, we can limit his snap count and he could really help us.  The question though becomes, who’s spot does he take?  

 

If you don’t want to risk Settle on the PS, then you pretty much have Allen, Ioannidas, Payne, Lanier and Settle as locks.  Which means you get to pick 1 (maybe two) of McGee, Hood, and Taylor.  Availability, veteran leadership/example, cost, and versatility become the primary factors I’d presume.  

 

Because of the injury concern, I think I’d keep Hood or McGee if we keep 6 (though I’d be tempted by Taylor).  If we go with 7, I would definitely have Taylor on the roster.  Just too much upside at that point.  

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[Vanguard]

On ‎5‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 8:28 PM, skinny21 said:

Taylor just scares me.  Well, his health does anyway.  With that said, if he’s healthy, we can limit his snap count and he could really help us.  The question though becomes, who’s spot does he take?  

 

If you don’t want to risk Settle on the PS, then you pretty much have Allen, Ioannidas, Payne, Lanier and Settle as locks.  Which means you get to pick 1 (maybe two) of McGee, Hood, and Taylor.  Availability, veteran leadership/example, cost, and versatility become the primary factors I’d presume.  

 

Because of the injury concern, I think I’d keep Hood or McGee if we keep 6 (though I’d be tempted by Taylor).  If we go with 7, I would definitely have Taylor on the roster.  Just too much upside at that point.  

 

I'm sorry but I am NOT a Hood fan.  I can't even say with confidence that he's a suitable backup at this point in his career.

[OlufemiBiz]

On 5/14/2018 at 4:11 PM, Cliffmark1 said:

Reading all of the above posts that worry about D Payne's ability to get "sacks'n'stuff" makes me realize people haven't really understood the 3/4 and why we have been terrible on Defense since the switch.  You don't want a NT to get sacks or pressures in the vast majority of situations (more below), you want an NT to take out two OL. 

 

It's not that 3/4s don't work, they do, but the job of the 3/4 lineman isn't the same as a 4/3. I actually prefer a 4/3 and think we would have won a few more games every year running a 4/3 but that is a different post.  In general in a 4/3 you want every DL to be able to make plays, in terms of rushing the QB but that is not the case in a 3/4. If you want your NT to get pressure or sacks the 3/4 fails.

 

We honestly don't want D Payne to get any sacks or any pressures (unless its a complete collapse, the QBs is being forced from the pocket forward or they only use one blocker on the NT).  We want an NT, D Payne, to occupy two interior o lineman every single play.  I'm not sure where DP would have gone in the draft if we didn't get him but it seems like he is both willing and able to play as an NT, that is selflessly taking out two OL at the expense of personal stats which isn't necessarily a given (see AH). 

 

If the NT can be blocked 1-1 the 3/4 fails and that has been the case every single year we have run the 3/4.  We don't really even want the NT to push the LOS back, we just want him to keep two OL occupied at all times.   If the NT rushes the QB and doesn't draw two blockers the 3/4 fails. 

 

The idea is you take one interior lineman and you say don't go after the qb, take up two OL every play, there will be cases where you want the NT to play almost like a blocker to occupy two OL so they can't block LBs on certain run plays.  If D Payne can take out two OL every play the team has dramatically improved and the defensive scheme may work.  If the NT can't occupy 2 OL during run plays (basically blocking them) the 3/4 fails. 

 

NT seems like an unimportant position if you don't try to get stats, but it's actually the cornerstone of the whole philosophy the 3/4 is built on, if your NT doesn't take out two OL the whole 3/4 fails, and in reality our defense has been a failure since the switch.  Getting D Payne, if he can be a true NT, and if we use him as one, can make the whole defense work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*If We can get 'SUMMA-DIS' outta PAYNE/SETTLE/TAYLOR...

 

We're 'GOOD'!!!

 

 

 

 

 

*'MANUSKY, TOMSULA, OLIVADOTTI, GRAY, & CO.' are 'STEADILY/QUIETLY 

EVOLVING' Our DEFENSE into...

 

 

[volsmet]

#NeverAgain 

 

 

 

--------

This guy cant legally buy a beer yet:

 

 

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2018/4/16/17030912/daron-payne-alabama-national-championship-game-nfl-draft

 

 

Quote

 

Payne’s a force, and stepped up in a big way in a big game.

Now he’s coming to an NFL roster near you. To his opponents on the next level: good luck. Payne will be a high pick, but if any of these six coaches had been making the decision in January, he probably would’ve been taken first.

 

 

 

Quote

 

Payne started early.

He caused a pick with interior pressure on the third play of the game. Georgia QB Jake Fromm couldn’t step into the throw and put too much air under the ball. Here’s Payne’s short-area quickness on full display.

 

 

Quote

The coaches noted Alabama was in a bear front, a look it showed often in the game. The front creates five one-on-one matchups along the line and challenges each defender to simply whip his man. On this play, the Tide ran a stunt on the left side and brought an extra defender.

 

Quote

 

Here’s how Payne can do it all in one play.

He lined up in what Sumlin identified as a “tilt alignment,” on one play. The alignment’s invention is credited to Steelerslegend Mean Joe Greene, who improvised it it because he was tired of getting blocked.

He hated to get blocked and wanted to make plays. So it occurred to him that, because he was so quick, he should just line up inside, between the center and the guard, tip his shoulder sideways, and when the ball was snapped, he’d just dart through that hole. He was supposed to line head-up on the guard. He jumped in the gap between the guard and center, tilted his body, and just blew through that gap.

Whereas Greene tried to dart through the hole, Payne tried to dart through Galliard:

 

 

 

PFF grade: 96.3

 

 

Dominating 1 gap, 2 gap, & gap, none. *****ization of 8 mile free style*

 

 

Quote

Monday night in the Mercedes-Benz Superdome saw the best performance of the year by the Alabama defense and it was highlighted by junior Da’Ron Payne’s MVP effort.

 

http://tide1029.com/hear-what-daron-payne-said-about-his-huge-night-in-sugar-bowl/

 

 

 

[skinny21]

14 hours ago, Vanguard said:

 

I'm sorry but I am NOT a Hood fan.  I can't even say with confidence that he's a suitable backup at this point in his career.

I’m actually with you here.  What gives me pause is 1) he was played out of position, 2) his versatility, 3) his vet leadership/example, and 4) he doesn’t have anything close to Taylor’s lengthy injury history.  

[GhostofAlvinWalton]

2 hours ago, skinny21 said:

I’m actually with you here.  What gives me pause is 1) he was played out of position, 2) his versatility, 3) his vet leadership/example, and 4) he doesn’t have anything close to Taylor’s lengthy injury history.  

 

I think more people need to take the above bolded/underlined part into consideration.  I bet people would have a much different opinion of Scherff if he was playing OT instead of G.  People really like DJ at SS but not so much at FS.  Crowder...great slot receiver...on the outside...not so much.  This kinda stuff actually makes a difference. 

 

That being said...I think Hood, Taylor, and McGee are in a battle for the last one (or two) DL spots...and th winner will probably not get a ton on snaps per game outside of injury.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

59 minutes ago, GhostofAlvinWalton said:

That being said...I think Hood, Taylor, and McGee are in a battle for the last one (or two) DL spots...and th winner will probably not get a ton on snaps per game outside of injury.

 

We're probably keeping 6 right...maaaaaybe 7 but that's doubtful.

 

Allen, Payne, Ioannidis

Lanier, Settle, McGee

 

Hood is #7.  It could be McGee, but he's more expensive to cut, and I believe the coaches like the role they use McGee for.  While I agree that Hood has been playing out of position, which is awesome since you want guys who are willing if emergencies strike, but the above already has 2 NT's on it.  Hood's value was as a backup NT/DE (until he took the job from McClain).  Where does Hood play in the rotation?  Definitely not in the Nickel, we're currently loaded in that situation (rare to say, but we're deep in something on the DL).  Not strongside DE, that's where backup McGee will rotate in.  So the other side of the formation behind Allen.  But Ioannidis will likely rotate there as well.  IMO, Hood is looking at the fewest snaps available in the unit.  It's tough to keep someone on in that situation.

 

Problem with Phil Taylor, and why I think he's a long shot.  He's always hurt, you don't cut somebody over him if you think Taylor might go to IR in two weeks anyways.  You keep Phil Taylor on speed dial if he's healthy at the end of pre-season and if somebody else suffers an injury.

 

So let's say we keep 7 DL.  That means only 18 ILB/Edge/CB/S/etc.

 

4 S: Apke, Nicholson, Everett, Swearinger

6 CB: Norman, Dunbar, Scandrick, Moreau, Holsey, Stroman (this could maybe be dropped down to 5, but you generally want 10 DB's)

4 Edge: Pernell McPhee, Kerrigan, Preston Smith, Ryan Anderson

 

I think those 3 groups are pretty clear.  The issue is with ILB as I'm currently counting 6 in the mix.

 

Brown, Foster, Vigil, Spaight, Dion-Hamilton, Harvey-Clemons

 

Dion-Hamilton could maybe be on PUP, but rumor has it he might be ready by training camp.  Harvey-Clemons is the dimebacker, but maybe Dion-Hamilton can compete there?  Vigil and Spaight are competing for the backup Mike role.  This is a group where I can see us wanting to keep 5.

[skinny21]

@Alcoholic ZebraAs I said in the roster thread, I think the number of dline they keep might depend on how Settle looks.  

 

 

[bakedtater1]

Good lord Payne is a big man...young man..but big..

[bakedtater1]

That clip of payne in high school is.. enjoyable to watch..I CANT WAIT!!..I can...quitely    start to     hear the ........chants.   WE WANT DALLAS!! WE WANT DALLAS!! we goin gerbal/squirrel/which ever rodent Zeke represents huntin..

[Skinsinparadise]

My take on Payne is complex.  I like but don't love the player. I don't see him as this monster-immovable nose who just eats up the A gap all the time.  My criticism isn't hey the dude is a monster run stopper but can he rush the passer?  I don't think he's a monster run stopper just yet -- a good one though.  And Clinton Portis is much harsher on that point he goes when he was watching the top backs to grade them, he saw Payne handled way too much for his liking -- he cited one of the Arkansas games where Ragnow handled him among others.  Don't love the pick, don't hate it either.  But I do think he will vastly improve the middle of the defense.  And maybe he does develop into a Snacks Harrison type with Tomsula's guidance.   I was just rewatching the Vikings/Redskins.  The Vikings 2nd play.   Hood playing 1 technique, McClain 3.   The Vikings O line just shove and handle McClain and Hood and in the process part the seas up the middle for a big run.  I'd gather with Allen back in the lineup and Payne, this will be rare.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

And look at how tight their defense lined up for that play up the middle right down to the MLBs, yet the Vikings spring for a big run right up the gut.  Talk about demoralizing.