Burgold

Redskins receiving corp is beginning to shape up

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3 hours ago, HigSkin said:

 

 

 

Not sure I really get the point. First off, Doctson does have 1100 yards in his career. So he has exceeded 1000 yards total as a Redskin. If you're criticizing Docston for not having a single 1000 yard season, you have to criticize the entire roster. Because no one has done that.

 

Second, we're not measuring whether Doctson is "worth" a first round pick. That's not the question. We're measuring whether he's "worth" more and/or better than the other options.

 

Third, here are other Redskins draft picks and their first three years:

Trey Quinn - 1 year, 75 yards, many injuries (2 years remaining)

Robert Davis - 2 years, 0 yards (1 year remaining)

Evan Spencer - never made the team

Jamison Crowder - 2032 yards

Ryan Grant - 412 yards

Aldrick Robinson - 608 yards

Niles Paul (technically a WR, converted to TE) - 228 yards

Leonard Hankerson - 981 yards

Terrence Austin - 184 yards

Marko Mitchell - 32 yards

Malcolm Kelly - 365 yards

Devin Thomas - 445 yards

Taylor Jacobs - 315 yards

Cliff Russell - 45 yards

 

With the exception of Crowder, you have to go back to Rod Gardner in 2001 to find a Redskins receiver who's done more than Doctson in his three years. And Doctson was basically hurt one of his first three. I get he hasn't lived up to expectations, but he's also done better than Ryan Grant or Leonard Hankerson or any other non-Crowder WR pick in the last 17 years. Are we really going to run that guy out of town for nothing when he's still: (1) relatively cheap; and (2) potentially improving (most WRs take a few years to develop). I still don't get the hate Doctson gets. Half of it seems made up (e.g. he's not a hard worker, he doesn't want to be here, etc...). The other half seems to believe the grass is always greener on the other side. When usually it is not.

 

3 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

Former first round pick 7th over all Kevin white looking for work..haha looking at you j doc lol

 

White also has half the yards in his career that Docton had last year alone. So White's on a different level of bust. For that matter, another first round bust, Laquon Treadwell, has had less yards in his career than Doctson had last year. So really many of these guys aren't the same as Doctson.

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4 hours ago, HigSkin said:

 

 

 

So the answer is to have 4 guys with 0 yards, 1 guy with 75 yards, and 1 guy who's had exactly 1 year with over 300 yards in his 5 year career and can't stay healthy?

 

Unless we can get a decent pick for Doctson it makes no sense to me to cut him. He's one of only two guys on the team who's actually proven that he can play WR in the NFL. He hasn't lived up to his draft position but that doesn't mean it makes sense to cut him. He's produced in the league and he's cheap this year. Are we seriously just assuming that a bunch of late round or undrafted guys are all going to pan out?

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8 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

So the answer is to have 4 guys with 0 yards, 1 guy with 75 yards, and 1 guy who's had exactly 1 year with over 300 yards in his 5 year career and can't stay healthy?

 

Unless we can get a decent pick for Doctson it makes no sense to me to cut him. He's one of only two guys on the team who's actually proven that he can play WR in the NFL. He hasn't lived up to his draft position but that doesn't mean it makes sense to cut him. He's produced in the league and he's cheap this year. Are we seriously just assuming that a bunch of late round or undrafted guys are all going to pan out?

 

I wouldn't put much stock in what Cooley says here.

 

I generally find Cooley to be a jerk, and take little of what he says to heart. He is a member of the sports media now, and like most commentators in the sports media, he has his agendas and his axes to grind.

 

I don't see Doctson cut this year. For better or worse, he is a veteran presence  while the young guys get their feet wet.

 

Next year, though, with his option off the table, could be a different story.

 

 

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11 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

So the answer is to have 4 guys with 0 yards, 1 guy with 75 yards, and 1 guy who's had exactly 1 year with over 300 yards in his 5 year career and can't stay healthy?

 

Unless we can get a decent pick for Doctson it makes no sense to me to cut him. He's one of only two guys on the team who's actually proven that he can play WR in the NFL. He hasn't lived up to his draft position but that doesn't mean it makes sense to cut him. He's produced in the league and he's cheap this year. Are we seriously just assuming that a bunch of late round or undrafted guys are all going to pan out?

 

That was Craig Hoffman's point on the Junkies this morning.  Even though Doctson hasn't had huge production, he knows the offense and is always done what he's told to do, being in the right place on routes, etc.  Hoffman seems to think he will make the 53 but says the only thing that might eliminate him is talent from the other WR's on teams.

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16 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Not fair !
You can't say both Sims make the team and then go on to use the name "Sims" by itself, so that we don't know which Sims you're talking about !

Easy. You got outside Sims and inside Sims. Outside cant play inside and inside seems best suited to stay there.

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20 minutes ago, TheShredSkinz said:

Easy. You got outside Sims and inside Sims. Outside cant play inside and inside seems best suited to stay there.

This is genius. The defensive coordinator tells his corners that he has to cover Simms. They don't know which Simms to cover meaning one always is left open while one corner says to the other, "I thought you had Simms! Nah, man! I had Simms!"

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1 hour ago, Burgold said:

This is genius. The defensive coordinator tells his corners that he has to cover Simms. They don't know which Simms to cover meaning one always is left open while one corner says to the other, "I thought you had Simms! Nah, man! I had Simms!"

Ed Zachary

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Is it weird that people want to cut Josh Doctson (cause he "sucks") for players like Robert Davis based on potential when the two were drafted one year apart and Doctson has over 1100 yards receiving to date while Davis has zero NFL catches? Davis would need 81 catches, 1100 yards, and 8 TDs this year to equal Doctson's production in their first three years combined. 

 

P.S. This isn't meant to be an "attack" on Robert Davis. Davis seems decent enough. I'm mostly pointing out the absurdity of the situation. The team can surely keep both players if they wanted without much issue. It doesn't have to be either/or

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7 minutes ago, Jericho said:

Is it weird that people want to cut Josh Doctson (cause he "sucks") for players like Robert Davis based on potential when the two were drafted one year apart and Doctson has over 1100 yards receiving to date while Davis has zero NFL catches? Davis would need 81 catches, 1100 yards, and 8 TDs this year to equal Doctson's production in their first three years combined. 

 

P.S. This isn't meant to be an "attack" on Robert Davis. Davis seems decent enough. I'm mostly pointing out the absurdity of the situation. The team can surely keep both players if they wanted without much issue. It doesn't have to be either/or

I mean has Doc ever wowed you? This is his fourth year in the league and he has the same issues. He doesn't ever get open. He's just not a dynamic playmaker at all. At least with Davis there is a chance he could be a good receiver and make some plays. I see nothing of Doctson. We could cut him and he'll be out of the league.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Jericho said:

Is it weird that people want to cut Josh Doctson (cause he "sucks") for players like Robert Davis based on potential when the two were drafted one year apart and Doctson has over 1100 yards receiving to date while Davis has zero NFL catches? Davis would need 81 catches, 1100 yards, and 8 TDs this year to equal Doctson's production in their first three years combined. 

 

P.S. This isn't meant to be an "attack" on Robert Davis. Davis seems decent enough. I'm mostly pointing out the absurdity of the situation. The team can surely keep both players if they wanted without much issue. It doesn't have to be either/or

 

At least Robert Davis plays Special Teams and is pretty good at it. After what we've seen from Doctson, he's had his fair share of chances to shine. Yet he can't even reach the 600 yard mark? As of right now I have him below Sims, McLaurin, Quinn, Harmon, and Richardson. As the 6th WR he'll get barely any playing time and you might as well cut him for someone who plays Special Teams. 

Edited by Burgundy Yoda
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2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I mean has Doc ever wowed you? This is his fourth year in the league and he has the same issues. He doesn't ever get open. He's just not a dynamic playmaker at all. At least with Davis there is a chance he could be a good receiver and make some plays. I see nothing of Doctson. We could cut him and he'll be out of the league.

 

He doesn't have to wow me. He just needs to be better than the alternatives. I feel too much of the hate is because people wanted Doctson to put up bigger numbers as a first round pick. That's fine. He hasn't lived up to that. But he's been better than Ryan Grant or Leonard Hankerson or Aldrick Robinson. And all of those guys found work post-Redskins. I just don't get how people feel Doctson is done developing three years into his career, but Robert Davis has huge upside two years in to his of doing nothing. It's cognitive dissonance. Doctson would easily find work if he cut him. 

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14 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I mean has Doc ever wowed you? This is his fourth year in the league and he has the same issues. He doesn't ever get open. He's just not a dynamic playmaker at all. At least with Davis there is a chance he could be a good receiver and make some plays. I see nothing of Doctson. We could cut him and he'll be out of the league.

So the definition of how we chose our roster is "has this player ever wowed me"?  In that case Davis hasnt wowed me, so why dont we cut him?  Also, 40 other players on our roster.  Cut them all.

 

Completely irrational.

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4 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

 

At least Robert Davis plays Special Teams and is pretty good at it. After what we've seen from Doctson, he's had his fair share of chances to shine. Yet he can't even reach the 600 yard mark? As of right now I have him below Sims, McLaurin, Quinn, Harmon, and Richardson. As the 6th WR he'll get barely any playing time and you might as well cut him for someone who plays Special Teams. 

 

But really, why is he behind any of those players? What has Quinn done to be ranked over Doctson. Get hurt? What has Sims done? Get hurt? Was has Paul Richardson done? Okay, he was pretty decent in 2017. Every other year of his career all he did was get hurt. Doctson's numbers are better than Richardson's on a per year basis, but Richardson is a lock and Docston is not? Harmon is probably the most overvalued player on this board. Most people treat him like a 3rd/4th round pick. But 24/31 other teams passed on him in the 6th round alone.  the other 7 passed on him in the 5th. If Harmon was really viewed around the league that highly, why did every team pass on him round after round. Particularly at a spot in the draft where you'd be happy just to find a bona fide player?

 

Look, I hope all the young players develop. But people act like they're all imminently going to become Pro Bowlers, when most would be lucky to even put up one season as good as Doctson's last two. Devin Thomas was a bust. Josh Doctson is merely disappointing, but still useful.

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On 8/21/2019 at 11:06 PM, mistertim said:

 

So the answer is to have 4 guys with 0 yards, 1 guy with 75 yards, and 1 guy who's had exactly 1 year with over 300 yards in his 5 year career and can't stay healthy?

 

Unless we can get a decent pick for Doctson it makes no sense to me to cut him. He's one of only two guys on the team who's actually proven that he can play WR in the NFL. He hasn't lived up to his draft position but that doesn't mean it makes sense to cut him. He's produced in the league and he's cheap this year. Are we seriously just assuming that a bunch of late round or undrafted guys are all going to pan out?

 

the reason it makes sense to cut him is because there's people on the roster in camp playing better than him.  If he'd actually proven that he can play then he wouldn't be on the bubble. 

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I like what Keenum said after the game about Doctson. "He is a very reliable route runner that is always where you need him. He may not have gotten the targets from other qbs." (That is not verbatim but the gist of it.) While that is not what you expect from a first rounder, it is still a great piece to have in a passing game.

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21 minutes ago, Jericho said:

 

He doesn't have to wow me. He just needs to be better than the alternatives. I feel too much of the hate is because people wanted Doctson to put up bigger numbers as a first round pick. That's fine. He hasn't lived up to that. But he's been better than Ryan Grant or Leonard Hankerson or Aldrick Robinson. And all of those guys found work post-Redskins. I just don't get how people feel Doctson is done developing three years into his career, but Robert Davis has huge upside two years in to his of doing nothing. It's cognitive dissonance. Doctson would easily find work if he cut him. 

 

lots of players find work after they're cut.  You don't only cut people who will be out of the NFL once you cut them because if you did that you'd never get down to 53.  And right now it's not just fans on this board saying he's not likely to make the cut, it's people who talk to the people who make the decisions.  Whatever he has shown in the past, he is not showing this training camp

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Jericho said:

 

But really, why is he behind any of those players? What has Quinn done to be ranked over Doctson. Get hurt? What has Sims done? Get hurt? Was has Paul Richardson done? Okay, he was pretty decent in 2017. Every other year of his career all he did was get hurt. Doctson's numbers are better than Richardson's on a per year basis, but Richardson is a lock and Docston is not? Harmon is probably the most overvalued player on this board. Most people treat him like a 3rd/4th round pick. But 24/31 other teams passed on him in the 6th round alone.  the other 7 passed on him in the 5th. If Harmon was really viewed around the league that highly, why did every team pass on him round after round. Particularly at a spot in the draft where you'd be happy just to find a bona fide player?

 

Look, I hope all the young players develop. But people act like they're all imminently going to become Pro Bowlers, when most would be lucky to even put up one season as good as Doctson's last two. Devin Thomas was a bust. Josh Doctson is merely disappointing, but still useful.

He has had reps with the #1s, none of these other guys have had that type of opportunity. Cutting Doctson allows someone else to get the opportunity to shine. Leonard Hankerson had more yards in his second season than Josh Doctson. I personally don't care if he's cut or not, but he sure as hell doesn't belong with the 1st team. Josh Doctson is not useful, he is a huge minus being a starter, the dude never gets open and doesn't run great routes. In what ways do you see him as useful? Richardson just signed a big contract with us and has only had 7 games with us. I feel like he deserves more time with the team, while JD has had 33 games. In the 3 years Josh has been in the league he's averaged 367 yards a season, that's awful and the team should use him as an example and cut him or at the very least slide him way down the depth chart. 

 

There's a very good chance none of these players will be pro bowlers, but they have the luxury of being unknown and outperforming him in camp. 

Edited by Burgundy Yoda
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2 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

He has had reps with the #1s, none of these other guys have had that type of opportunity. Cutting Doctson allows someone else to get the opportunity to shine. Leonard Hankerson had more yards in his second season than Josh Doctson. I personally don't care if he's cut or not, but he sure as hell doesn't belong with the 1st team. Josh Doctson is not useful, he is a huge minus being a starter, the dude never gets open and doesn't run great routes. In what ways do you see him as useful? Richardson just signed a big contract with us and has only had 7 games with us. I feel like he deserves more time with the team, while JD has had 33 games. In the 3 years Josh has been in the league he's averaged 367 yards a season, that's awful and the team should use him as an example and cut him. 

 

There's a very good chance none of these players will be pro bowlers, but they have the luxury of being unknown and outperforming him in camp. 

 

Did you ever think Doctson got reps with the #1 because he earned it? Or are we to believe the team just ran him with the #1s (mostly, he hasn't started every game the last two years) because of draft position? Because the team doesn't really seem to be doing that anywhere else on the roster. It does seem to be a merit based system. Admittedly the competition at WR has been weak. But Doctson has been better than the alternatives (e.g. Ryan Grant, Terrelle Pryor, Brian Quick, Maurice Harris, Michael Floyd) I also find it weird that you want to cut Docston for his "awful" 367 yards per season, but are fine giving Richardson "more time" with his 310 yards per season. Robert Davis would need 1100 yards this season alone to get up to 367 yards per season after the year. It's like you write off Doctson based on some metric, then ignore that pretty much every other player on this roster is actually worse by that same metric.

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8 minutes ago, Jericho said:

 

Did you ever think Doctson got reps with the #1 because he earned it? Or are we to believe the team just ran him with the #1s (mostly, he hasn't started every game the last two years) because of draft position? Because the team doesn't really seem to be doing that anywhere else on the roster. It does seem to be a merit based system. Admittedly the competition at WR has been weak. But Doctson has been better than the alternatives (e.g. Ryan Grant, Terrelle Pryor, Brian Quick, Maurice Harris, Michael Floyd) I also find it weird that you want to cut Docston for his "awful" 367 yards per season, but are fine giving Richardson "more time" with his 310 yards per season. Robert Davis would need 1100 yards this season alone to get up to 367 yards per season after the year. It's like you write off Doctson based on some metric, then ignore that pretty much every other player on this roster is actually worse by that same metric.

I'm just going to agree to disagree with you. It seems like such a pointless discussion, we already both agree he's a disappointing player, with me a little firmer on the "disappointing" aspect than you.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/21/2019 at 9:37 PM, Jericho said:

 

Not sure I really get the point. First off, Doctson does have 1100 yards in his career. So he has exceeded 1000 yards total as a Redskin. If you're criticizing Docston for not having a single 1000 yard season, you have to criticize the entire roster. Because no one has done that.

 

Second, we're not measuring whether Doctson is "worth" a first round pick. That's not the question. We're measuring whether he's "worth" more and/or better than the other options.

 

Third, here are other Redskins draft picks and their first three years:

Trey Quinn - 1 year, 75 yards, many injuries (2 years remaining)

Robert Davis - 2 years, 0 yards (1 year remaining)

Evan Spencer - never made the team

Jamison Crowder - 2032 yards

Ryan Grant - 412 yards

Aldrick Robinson - 608 yards

Niles Paul (technically a WR, converted to TE) - 228 yards

Leonard Hankerson - 981 yards

Terrence Austin - 184 yards

Marko Mitchell - 32 yards

Malcolm Kelly - 365 yards

Devin Thomas - 445 yards

Taylor Jacobs - 315 yards

Cliff Russell - 45 yards

 

With the exception of Crowder, you have to go back to Rod Gardner in 2001 to find a Redskins receiver who's done more than Doctson in his three years. And Doctson was basically hurt one of his first three. I get he hasn't lived up to expectations, but he's also done better than Ryan Grant or Leonard Hankerson or any other non-Crowder WR pick in the last 17 years. Are we really going to run that guy out of town for nothing when he's still: (1) relatively cheap; and (2) potentially improving (most WRs take a few years to develop). I still don't get the hate Doctson gets. Half of it seems made up (e.g. he's not a hard worker, he doesn't want to be here, etc...). The other half seems to believe the grass is always greener on the other side. When usually it is not.

Every one of those players you listed had a lower draft slot than doctson.. meaning they had less chances and were provided with less opportunity. Doctson has been our number 1 receiver for two years and has done nothing with it. If he wasnt highly drafted their is no way he would be our current no. 1 reciever. 

 

Your list also seems to ignore a player like garcon, who did much more than jdoc while having the same position. Or a player like desean Jackson who performed a lot more.

 

Face it dude. Docston has sucked and his production as of this point could be replaced by a slew of udfa's.. thats how bad he has been, utterly replaceable. 

 

That is why fans are searching for a change. Now if you want to argue that doctson has had bad qb luck or that he might need more time to unlock potential then that is a different argument. 

Edited by sportjunkie07
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8 hours ago, Jericho said:

Is it weird that people want to cut Josh Doctson (cause he "sucks") for players like Robert Davis based on potential when the two were drafted one year apart and Doctson has over 1100 yards receiving to date while Davis has zero NFL catches? Davis would need 81 catches, 1100 yards, and 8 TDs this year to equal Doctson's production in their first three years combined. 

 

P.S. This isn't meant to be an "attack" on Robert Davis. Davis seems decent enough. I'm mostly pointing out the absurdity of the situation. The team can surely keep both players if they wanted without much issue. It doesn't have to be either/or

 

I get what you're saying...and agree I don't think we should just cut him. We aren't exactly overloaded at the position. I have no problem having Doctson as a back up. But I do think it's time to stop looking at him as a #1 WR, or a starter in general. I would rather see what the younger guys can do this year. But, if the 3-4 WRs that I feel like could be better than him are all hurt, well yeh you could do worse than Doctson, like uh Brian Quick. I think you need at least one guy on your team that has played significant snaps in his career. 

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2 minutes ago, dballer said:

 

I get what you're saying...and agree I don't think we should just cut him. We aren't exactly overloaded at the position. I have no problem having Doctson as a back up. But I do think it's time to stop looking at him as a #1 WR, or a starter in general. I would rather see what the younger guys can do this year. But, if the 3-4 WRs that I feel like could be better than him are all hurt, well yeh you could do worse than Doctson, like uh Brian Quick. I think you need at least one guy on your team that has played significant snaps in his career. 

 

non starter special teamers need to be able to play special teams.  He doesn't

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