Let's All Get Behind Alex Smith! Or Not!! (M.E.T.) NO kirk talk---that goes in ATN forum

[Bigmuss1]

12 minutes ago, Vladimir L said:

Can we possibly just use Vernon Davis more as a WR. With two TE set we could do some damage in the run game and pass game.

Love when Vernon is on the field!

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

23 minutes ago, Bigmuss1 said:

You mentioned Kirks stats vs Alex stats, one played on a sunny dry day one played in rain.  If you compare the two games please take everything into account.  This is why just grabbing random stats to prove a point is pointless.  

 

One threw a game ending interception and one did not.  One was bailed out by the refs, one didn’t need to be because his team was so far ahead. 

 

Dude, I watched the game.  Choose whichever narrative makes you feel better, but Kirk’s performance was much more worthy of hype.  I’m certainly not alone on that.  If Alex throws for 400+ and 4TD’s in any game, I promise you he’ll get kudos for it by both fans and national media.

[RemoveSnyder]

Whitewash on a moldy wall, honest opinion. Don't @me. ?

 

 

 

[Burgold]

You guys do realize that Kirk is not coming back, right? I realize first loves are hard to get over and there's still a chance he'll ask you to prom, but I don't think dating Alex Smith to make Kirk jealous is going to work at all.

[wit33]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Drew Brees wasn't for example a loser with his 7-9 for three seasons in a row.  And then all of a sudden became a winner again when he got Kamara.  I can go on and on.  Plenty have done so in QB threads.  Don't feel like reliving it here.   The point has been made by plenty using stats.  

 

The one thing I take from your point that flows here is yes a good QB increases your chances to be a winner.  It's tough to stink with a good QB.  You are typically are either mediocre (with a weakish supporting cast), good or very good (with a strong supporting cast).

 

Would Alex Smith be a winner with the 2017 roster the way it unfolded?  I doubt it.  Would he have been a winner with the 2015 roster -- which included a healthy Jordan Reed.  Yeah, I am sure he would be.

 

I agree a QB needs help. If my support of Alex made it appear as if I was giving all or most of credit for a winning season, then I was misunderstood. 

 

There are no absolutes in the NFL, but it was surprising to most the Saints and Brees experienced 3 straight 7-9 seasons. The NFL is fickle as you know. The Saints now suck on defense again this year, after all the talk of them building a defense, but Brees will have them in position to have a chance to win 12-14 games I’d guess. We’ll see if he spins his way for more rushing TDS in the future for wins lol

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You giving superlatives to what you like about Alex Smith is irrelevant to me as to the point.  As for these "intangibles" if you study Drew Brees the dude is mega leader, teammates really like him, good guy, the whole 9 yards.  So his up and down track record of being a winner or loser IMO is off the mark if its squarely about him - he isn't a winner or loser but a really good QB who gives his team a chance to win.  He does HIS part to make his team a winner regardless of the outcome.

 

Once again, there are no absolutes in the NFL, but possessing great intangibles is helpful in my opinion. I understand it’s impossible to quantify. 

 

I can understand a random fan of another team downplaying superlatives of Alex, but not fanatic like yourself. I mean, do you not agree with them? For example, I wouldn’t use all the intangibles of Alex in a debate with buddy of another team, due to him not watching/following the Skins daily. For us,  superlatives, intangibles, leadership etc. is appropriate, don’t you think? Surface stats is for ESPN and NFL network to discuss. 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

To me that's modest success. I'd like it but not love it.   With this franchise, sneaking into the playoffs, every 3-4 years or so and losing in the first round isn't anything special.  It's nice.  But we aren't entering any new terrain.  Heck we've done it with Kirk, RG3, Brunell even Todd Collins.  Instead, go win a playoff game.   Though to your point, just as a fan I'd be happy to make the playoffs especially because I think its possible they don't.

 

Making the playoffs isnt modest for the franchise this year though. I agree, it’d be nice to put together a 3-4 year run at making playoffs and gaining more at bats for the Super Bowl. I think the Skins are headed in that direction. With that said, I’m one who thinks Super Bowl champions will become more fickle in the future. 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I've given optimistic predictions the previous two years.  This year, I truly don't know.  Reason being the sample size has gotten bigger as to Jordan Reed's injury history and to a lesser extent Chris Thompson.  I don't think they can survive both of them out like what happened last season.  If that happens, I'd go 8-8 at best.  If its last year's roster (with Thompson-Reed out), I'd go 6-10.  But am counting on the improved defense keeping their floor at 8-8.

 

My point is yeah the stay healthy idea is relevant to any NFL team but it is especially relevant to the Redskins.  You don't have conversations for example about the Falcons with the disclaimer of well if Julio Jones can stay healthy for a change then they will rock.  It's more of a Redskins thing because of the brittleness of their stars. 

 

Yes, injuries are key for all, so glad you mentioned this. I’ve felt the front office has made an effort to be resourceful to the trenches, which can help mask a games without guys like Reed and Thompson. For example, Thompson was a non factor last week. Reed was solid, but didn’t dominate the game or anything and he play roughly %70 of snaps. Not objecting these guys are critical to overall success. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, Burgold said:

You guys do realize that Kirk is not coming back, right? I realize first loves are hard to get over and there's still a chance he'll ask you to prom, but I don't think dating Alex Smith to make Kirk jealous is going to work at all.

 

You do realize that making lame jokes like this only prompts more Kirk discussion, right?

 

What’s even more lame is the discussion is typically prompted by those that dislike Kirk.

 

 

[Temper11]

3 hours ago, Califan007 said:

Last week the media championed Cousins for going "toe-to-toe" with the amazing Aaron Rodgers and willed his team to a tie, and how it showed Kirk was on the edge of greatness.

 

This week no one in the media is talking about how Smith not only went "toe-to-toe" with the amazing Aaron Rodgers but severely out-performed him in the 1st half, instead saying that the Packers defense isn't that good and maybe they shouldn't be playing an injured Rodgers because he's injured and has an injury, don't forget... and, oh, don't forget the Packers played an OT game last weekend so they were probably still really tired, poor things.

 

Get used to this.  

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

Once again, there are no absolutes in the NFL, but possessing great intangibles is helpful in my opinion. I understand it’s impossible to quantify. 

 

I can understand a random fan of another team downplaying superlatives of Alex, but not fanatic like yourself. I mean, do you not agree with them? For example, I wouldn’t use all the intangibles of Alex in a debate with buddy of another team, due to him not watching/following the Skins daily. For us,  superlatives, intangibles, leadership etc. is appropriate, don’t you think? Surface stats is for ESPN and NFL network to discuss. 

 

I gathered you missed many posts from me on this thread to state this.   I've probably posted more about Alex's intangibles than anyone.  I talked about his charity, posted clips of his interviews, quoted what Kelce said about him.   Heck even talked about his TV viewing habits.    But again to stay on point....

 

Let me go for some drama and hyperbole to bring the point home.  Was Alex a loser without intangibles with the 49ers and then just became a winner all of a sudden years later when he discovered the winning magic and finally became a good guy when he wasn't really so originally?  That would be ridiculous, right?  Or was he a good QB who finally got matched to a good roster and a good coach? 

 

Leadership/intangibles is a variable but IMO it isn't the be all and end all.  Gibbs would swear by Brunell as being one of the best leaders he was ever around.  Ramsey by some accounts, wasn't a leader and not always a great guy.  Still Brunell ultimately got benched for Ramsey.   Plenty say Aaron Rodgers isn't a leader and loved by all in that locker room. Some say he's aloof and shifts blame among other things.  But, regardless, he's great.  

 

Drew Brees actually is a great example because plenty would say, you can't get better than him as a leader and a guy.  Super nice guy, selfless, charitable.  the whole 9 yards.  Yet, his fortunes have been up and down depending on his roster. 

 

My point is there are a lot of things in the soup as for what makes a QB a winner.  Is leadership one of them?  Sure.  But IMO the #1 thing is their skills and the roster they play with and by a mile. 

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

For us,  superlatives, intangibles, leadership etc. is appropriate, don’t you think? Surface stats is for ESPN and NFL network to discuss. 

 

 

Yes, a player's personality and leadership skills matter.  I think everyone on the board has said the same about many players and we all agree.  But not sure what the point is aside from it being the overriding factor of why a Qb is a winner versus not.  If that's your point, I disagree.  The #1 point I believe is their skill set matched to the roster.  Yeah there are wild extremes like Jeff George.  But there are plenty of really good people who play in the NFL, especially at QB.  I don't think that's the prime mover of their team's success.  Primer move is the QB's ability and their playmakers. 

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

Yes, injuries are key for all, so glad you mentioned this. I’ve felt the front office has made an effort to be resourceful to the trenches, which can help mask a games without guys like Reed and Thompson. For example, Thompson was a non factor last week. Reed was solid, but didn’t dominate the game or anything and he play roughly %70 of snaps. Not objecting these guys are critical to overall success. 

 

It's not about wild extremes -- they can function and win without Reed and Thompson but a playoff team, I doubt it.   Heck they won some games last year with their battered roster but a playoff team I don't think so.  I could be wrong but i am sticking with it for now.  Fortunately so far we haven't had to find out. 

[Temper11]

3 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Rodgers also wasn't helped at all by his receivers.  There were at least 4 crucial drops which could have easily changed the outcome of the game.

 

Much like the Redskins last week against Indy. 

[Peregrine]

4 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

The pick wasn't even his fault.  Reed did not run the correct route.

True, probably was a poor decision to throw it considering just how far inside the defender was, but Reed took one bump and then just gave up on the route.  He figured Smith wouldnt throw it.  As a receiver, you cant ever do that.

[ExoDus84]

Speaking of Kirk...

 

https://twitter.com/mikerodak/status/1043956559011860485

 

[Sandy Monk]

3 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Rodgers also wasn't helped at all by his receivers.  There were at least 4 crucial drops which could have easily changed the outcome of the game.

 

Just be consistent in giving your own QB the same latitude and understanding, when his guys drop the passes or run crap routes.

I'm not saying you do not. I really don't make it a point to remember every single poster's every take, so I say the above in general.

(not directed to you, perhaps)

 

[Temper11]

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

The Vikings/Packers game was a shootout though, where Cousins threw for 425 and 4TD’s, with quite a few highlight dimes in there.

 

Smith was 12/20 with a little over 200 yards & 2 TDS.

 

Two totally different performances from a QB perspective.  Also, I’d be inclined to agree with those saying Rodgers looks gimpy and not himself.  Even more so against the Skins.  Don’t get me wrong, the defense played him well and all but he definitely looks broken.

 

True... but this is what frustrates me about this narrative.  The Packers didn't really threaten in the second half.  They never came closer than an 11pt. differential.  There was a fleeting moment yesterday as I was watching the game that I found myself wishing for the packers to score... just so the offense wouldn't be put on ice in the second half. 

 

So many of Smith's wins are just like this.  He lights it up early, looks freakin' awesome, jumps on a team early in the first half, and then coasts to the W throughout the rest of the game.  It's effective, but frustrating as hell if you happen to be active in the Alex Smith debate forums.  ?  2 TD lead in the 3rd?  Offense is done for the day unless the D completely folds and then you just hope the O can turn it back on. 

 

I used to think it was Andy.  Now I'm not so sure... I was excited when Smith was traded to the Skins because I heard that Jay's playcalling that was conducive to padding QB stats... but after 3, I'm starting to think it's more Smith putting the game on ice, and not Andy or Jay.  Frustrating... just keep playing your game!  (although I think he might say he IS playing his game).  6 yards or something like that in the second half? on 3 or 4 attempts?  Something like that?  Good grief. 

 

No one remembers that.  They just will reference this stat line: Smith was 12/20 with a little over 200 yards & 2 TDS and think - meh.

[Peregrine]

5 hours ago, Sandy Monk said:

 

While you do have a point to agree over, there are some differences going on now in 2018 KC vs 2017.

 

They went out and signed Watkins for 3 yr 48 million, and they did this for a notable reason. KC also has Conley back now from injury. Throughout his career, and aside from Hill, Alex has had pretty underwhelming WR talent.. yet has had much better fortune with TEs/RBs. He definitely doesn't have the arm superiority of a Mahomes; that's not at all the point. The point is, Smith has so far given more attention to the weapons on his team that are the superior players, is all. JR and CT are better than any of the WRs, I'd think. 

Its true, KC has never been particularly WR heavy, and its not that I dont want the ball in the hands of Thompson and Reed(in fact I wish Thompson got it more last game).  

 

But Alex hasnt had a season in the past 5 years where his #2 receiver had more than maybe 2 TDs? And hes had 1 season where he threw 0 TDs to a WR, which is frankly kind of amazing.  As long as we play good defense and dont get behind I think that will work well, it will be an issue in games where we fall behind.  Its awfully hard to teach a 34 year old QB to do what he hasnt done for the past 5-6 years.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

8 minutes ago, Temper11 said:

So many of Smith's wins are just like this.  He lights it up early, looks freakin' awesome, jumps on a team early in the first half, and then coasts to the W throughout the rest of the game.  It's effective, but frustrating as hell if you happen to be active in the Alex Smith debate forums.  ?  2 TD lead in the 3rd?  Offense is done for the day unless the D completely folds and then you just hope the O can turn it back on. 

 

I used to think it was Andy.  Now I'm not so sure... I was excited when Smith was traded to the Skins because I heard that Jay's playcalling that was conducive to padding QB stats... but after 3, I'm starting to think it's more Smith putting the game on ice, and not Andy or Jay.  Frustrating... just keep playing your game!  (although I think he might say he IS playing his game).  6 yards or something like that in the second half? on 3 or 4 attempts?  Something like that?  Good grief. 

 

No one remembers that.  They just will reference this stat line: Smith was 12/20 with a little over 200 yards & 2 TDS and think - meh.

 

Now this is interesting.  Just checked PFREF for Chiefs 1st half vs 2nd half stats in the past 3 seasons (2015-2017) and what you say is backed up. 

 

Average of 5.44 yards gained per play in the 1st half compared to 4.88 in the 2nd half.

 

However, the current 2018 Chiefs are the same way.  Average of 5.76 yards gained per play in the 1st half compared to 4.77 in the 2nd half.  So maybe Alex Smith is just carrying over the vibe he got from an Andy Reid coached team?  Also, this might explain why Andy Reid's teams always seem to choke and never get over the hump?

[Sandy Monk]

6 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Its awfully hard to teach a 34 year old QB to do what he hasnt done for the past 5-6 years.

 

Telling you, this narrative dramatically changes, if his WRs make plays they're well paid to make.

 

Be it Crabtree dropping 3rd down passes in 2011 playoffs versus the NYG or his PR muffing multiple punts.. Bowe failing to tap his second foot in on a 4th down routine sideline pass versus Indy in 2013. Eric Fisher needing to illegally hold Harrison versus Pittsburgh in 2016. Albert Wilson mistiming his jump for a late 4th Q pass versus Tennessee in 2017.

 

Alex is a rich SOB, so no tears from me, but he has not had good luck around him in the postseasons. If a few players make plays they should make? Different tunes being spoken of. 

[Temper11]

2 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Now this is interesting.  Just checked PFREF for Chiefs 1st half vs 2nd half stats in the past 3 seasons (2015-2017) and what you say is backed up. 

 

Average of 5.44 yards gained per play in the 1st half compared to 4.88 in the 2nd half.

 

However, the current 2018 Chiefs are the same way.  Average of 5.76 yards gained per play in the 1st half compared to 4.77 in the 2nd half.  So maybe Alex Smith is just carrying over the vibe he got from an Andy Reid coached team?  Also, this might explain why Andy Reid's teams always seem to choke and never get over the hump?

 

Maybe... could definitely be both.  Winning formula and both have bought in.  I think you'd fine if you looked specifically at passing attempts and yards on passing attempts you'd see an even more dramatic trend from first half to second.  Much of that isn't a surprise obviously... you have the lead, you run the ball to run out the clock.  It just seems to me that Reid/Smith and now Gruden/Smith do it far earlier and more pronounced than anyone else. 

[Temper11]

6 minutes ago, Sandy Monk said:

 

Telling you, this narrative dramatically changes, if his WRs make plays they're well paid to make.

 

Be it Crabtree dropping 3rd down passes in 2011 playoffs versus the NYG or his PR muffing multiple punts.. Bowe failing to tap his second foot in on a 4th down routine sideline pass versus Indy in 2013. Eric Fisher needing to illegally hold Harrison versus Pittsburgh in 2016. Albert Wilson mistiming his jump for a late 4th Q pass versus Tennessee in 2017.

 

Alex is a rich SOB, so no tears from me, but he has not had good luck around him in the postseasons. If a few players make plays they should make? Different tunes being spoken of. 

 

no doubt. 

 

Albert Wilson - that dude was born for the sole purpose of crushing Smith's post-season success.  Really wish he could have hauled in that pass to take a step in the direction of making things right after the debacle in the NYG NFCCG with SF.

[Mooka]

43 minutes ago, Temper11 said:

So many of Smith's wins are just like this.  He lights it up early, looks freakin' awesome, jumps on a team early in the first half, and then coasts to the W throughout the rest of the game.  It's effective, but frustrating as hell if you happen to be active in the Alex Smith debate forums.  ?  2 TD lead in the 3rd?  Offense is done for the day unless the D completely folds and then you just hope the O can turn it back on. 

 

This is pro football, many of every team's wins are like that. 

 

4 quarters of freakin awesome offense? You're talking about best of all time here that can do that for an entire season; 2007 Patriots, 2011 Packers, Greatest Show on Turf, 83 Skins.... etc. 

 

 

[JSSkinz]

5 hours ago, Bigmuss1 said:

You mean, when I get a little pressure I FUMBLE Kirk??  

More fumbles than any QB in the league since 2015.

4 hours ago, Vladimir L said:

Can we possibly just use Vernon Davis more as a WR. With two TE set we could do some damage in the run game and pass game.

How about Crowder and PRich on the outside with Reed in the slot, VD and Sprinkle at TE?

[wit33]

1 hour ago, Temper11 said:

 

True... but this is what frustrates me about this narrative.  The Packers didn't really threaten in the second half.  They never came closer than an 11pt. differential.  There was a fleeting moment yesterday as I was watching the game that I found myself wishing for the packers to score... just so the offense wouldn't be put on ice in the second half. 

 

So many of Smith's wins are just like this.  He lights it up early, looks freakin' awesome, jumps on a team early in the first half, and then coasts to the W throughout the rest of the game.  It's effective, but frustrating as hell if you happen to be active in the Alex Smith debate forums.  ?  2 TD lead in the 3rd?  Offense is done for the day unless the D completely folds and then you just hope the O can turn it back on. 

 

I used to think it was Andy.  Now I'm not so sure... I was excited when Smith was traded to the Skins because I heard that Jay's playcalling that was conducive to padding QB stats... but after 3, I'm starting to think it's more Smith putting the game on ice, and not Andy or Jay.  Frustrating... just keep playing your game!  (although I think he might say he IS playing his game).  6 yards or something like that in the second half? on 3 or 4 attempts?  Something like that?  Good grief. 

 

No one remembers that.  They just will reference this stat line: Smith was 12/20 with a little over 200 yards & 2 TDS and think - meh.

 

The chiefs scored 35 points in first half, then 3 in second half last week. Not saying the Skins can’t improve, but it’s not abnormal for this to happen when dominating and leading by a large margin. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

5 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

The Vikings/Packers game was a shootout though, where Cousins threw for 425 and 4TD’s, with quite a few highlight dimes in there.

 

Smith was 12/20 with a little over 200 yards & 2 TDS.

 

Two totally different performances from a QB perspective.  Also, I’d be inclined to agree with those saying Rodgers looks gimpy and not himself.  Even more so against the Skins.  Don’t get me wrong, the defense played him well and all but he definitely looks broken.

 

 

"Smith was 12/20 with a little over 200 yards & 2 TDS."

 

In the first half.

 

 

"I promise you guys if the Skins go to NO and win a shootout against Brees, or even tie - plenty of folks will start talking about the Redskins."

 

And basically, you're saying the media has narratives and templates that it sticks to no matter what, unless circumstances force them to take an unbiased perspective lol...

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

38 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

And basically, you're saying the media has narratives and templates that it sticks to no matter what, unless circumstances force them to take an unbiased perspective lol...

 

If you call talking about games with two high profile quarterbacks throwing for a ton of yards and touchdowns, that goes back and forth and ends in a tie a ‘narrative’ than sure.

[zCommander]

What I am more concerned about or would like to see is Alex and Doctson with more chemistry for each other. Alex throws to him are not where he could catch and still stay in bounds. I would like them to get this thing worked out before the second half of the season. 

[Bigmuss1]

6 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

Dude, I watched the game.  Choose whichever narrative makes you feel better, but Kirk’s performance was much more worthy of hype.  I’m certainly not alone on that.  If Alex throws for 400+ and 4TD’s in any game, I promise you he’ll get kudos for it by both fans and national media.

You can have your hype and stats, I’ll take a win over Aaron Rodgers, not a TIE or a gift from a ref away from a loss.  

 

Then getting your ass beat by a rookie QB and a terrible Bills team at home......