Let's All Get Behind Alex Smith! Or Not!! (M.E.T.) NO kirk talk---that goes in ATN forum

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

If you call talking about games with two high profile quarterbacks throwing for a ton of yards and touchdowns, that goes back and forth and ends in a tie a ‘narrative’ than sure.

 

The narrative is in how you talk about it. Not in simply talking about it.

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

33 minutes ago, Bigmuss1 said:

You can have your hype and stats, I’ll take a win over Aaron Rodgers, not a TIE or a gift from a ref away from a loss.  

 

Then getting your ass beat by a rookie QB and a terrible Bills team at home......

Calm down there, Chief.   I’m not trying to convince you what’s better as a Skins fan, I’m merely explaining why one scenario is more interesting than the other to the rest of the world.  If the Skins win enough games, they will become more interesting to the rest of the world.  If Smith then throws for 400+ and 4 TD’s, be rest assured - they will talk about it.

[wit33]

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I gathered you missed many posts from me on this thread to state this.   I've probably posted more about Alex's intangibles than anyone.  I talked about his charity, posted clips of his interviews, quoted what Kelce said about him.   Heck even talked about his TV viewing habits.    But again to stay on point....

 

I can truly careless about intangibles you speak about above. I’ve tried to point out in game intangibles he possesses, in an attempt to share what I feel impacts a game (my opinion, not a right or wrong).  

 

Ive read most everything you’ve shared in this thread. You’re most excited about Alex’s ball handling skills in backfield. Awesome! 

 

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Let me go for some drama and hyperbole to bring the point home.  Was Alex a loser without intangibles with the 49ers and then just became a winner all of a sudden years later when he discovered the winning magic and finally became a good guy when he wasn't really so originally?  That would be ridiculous, right?  Or was he a good QB who finally got matched to a good roster and a good coach? 

 

Yes, this is exactly what I feel. He has shared  being insecure, fickle minded, listening to outside noise, letting pressure get to him during his first 7 years with Niners. 

 

Where he’s at mentally is earned over time and experience. I understand this goes into the unquantifiable land though. 

 

Hes not the same dude he was in year 1 to 7... his words. 

 

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Leadership/intangibles is a variable but IMO it isn't the be all and end all.  Gibbs would swear by Brunell as being one of the best leaders he was ever around.  Ramsey by some accounts, wasn't a leader and not always a great guy.  Still Brunell ultimately got benched for Ramsey.   Plenty say Aaron Rodgers isn't a leader and loved by all in that locker room. Some say he's aloof and shifts blame among other things.  But, regardless, he's great.  

 

I do my best to avoid extremes, but continue to be put in one extreme and another by you lol. Never once have I shared intangibles being an end all be all, nor do I believe this to be true. 

 

I guess I assume most agree Alex is able to process information, execute a weekly game plan, and make necessary throws to win games. So this leads me to highlight his intangibles. Maybe it strikes a cord with some, because I felt Kirk lacked most of them while a Skin. 

 

Kirk in my view while here was comparable to what Alex talks about he struggled with in his first 7 years. Just an outside opinion. 

 

 

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My point is there are a lot of things in the soup as for what makes a QB a winner.  Is leadership one of them?  Sure.  But IMO the #1 thing is their skills and the roster they play with and by a mile. 

 

 

Yes, a player's personality and leadership skills matter.  I think everyone on the board has said the same about many players and we all agree.  But not sure what the point is aside from it being the overriding factor of why a Qb is a winner versus not.  If that's your point, I disagree.  The #1 point I believe is their skill set matched to the roster.  Yeah there are wild extremes like Jeff George.  But there are plenty of really good people who play in the NFL, especially at QB.  I don't think that's the prime mover of their team's success.  Primer move is the QB's ability and their playmakers. 

 

I attempted to share in game intangibles that make a difference from game to game, in my opinion. The ability for a QB to be ultra mindful of situational football is something I’ve been dying to see for a long time. I must see more, but the way Alex talks about the game his role, momentum swings, field position, score, time in game, securing the football, taking chances, using his legs on 3rd downs etc. is next level stuff. 

 

A true game manager and he’s paid like it. But, his ace in the hole are his legs. He’s not required to make great 3rd down throws at the rate others are, as we’ve already see a number of times this year. 

 

 

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It's not about wild extremes -- they can function and win without Reed and Thompson but a playoff team, I doubt it.   Heck they won some games last year with their battered roster but a playoff team I don't think so.  I could be wrong but i am sticking with it for now.  Fortunately so far we haven't had to find out. 

 

Reed is everything to me. Thompson not as much. It’s great having both. 

 

I don’t think you’re wrong, you’d have to imagine it’s make things much tougher losing Reed moreso in my eyes, but also Thompson. 

[Rogue Jedi]

I’d just like to point out that Alex has an absolute noodle arm. Probably bottom three in terms of starting QBs in the league.

 

That pass to Richardson barely made it ~43 yards and was underthrown.

 

Not saying he’s a bad QB, his strength is basically his mobility, timing, and placement in intermediate distances.

 

There’s probably a bit more caveat to the whole Alex has a “top deep passer rating” than it seems.

 

They probably judge a deep pass as anything longer than 30 yards. And I’m sure he hit a bunch in the 30-35 range last year.

 

But he basically needs his receiver to dust both the corner and the safety at around 35 yards where he can put it out  in front of him in-stride for the go-ahead.

 

Tyreek Hill was probably that fast where he did have the defense beat that quickly. He’s arguably the fastest man in the NFL right now.

 

But for those hoping that Alex will start airing it out more and taking deep shots, don’t hold your breath. I don’t think that’s really his game.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

I can truly careless about intangibles you speak about above. I’ve tried to point out in game intangibles he possesses, in an attempt to share what I feel impacts a game (my opinion, not a right or wrong).  

 

Ive read most everything you’ve shared in this thread. You’re most excited about Alex’s ball handling skills in backfield. Awesome! 

 

 

 

Sarcasm?  If that's all you caught, then you missed a good chunk of my posts. 

 

I have to admit of all the people on this thread your posts are the hardest ones for me to get a handle on.  Your posts come off subtle and careful -- sometimes with a negative undertone on Alex and sometimes a positive undertone in other posts.  Sometimes depending on the week.  This week its very positive.  So its hard for me to get a handle on your point.

 

I recall after last week, you posted he's a QB who struggles in the red zone and that might not change, you've said he's an average to above average QB -- talked about needed a good plan if I recall for him to win because he's a QB in the category of 7-25 range.  

 

Depending on the post, ironically I actually think more highly of Alex than you are.   I am solidly in that he's "good" and have been consistent on that point.  Not average to good.  But "good".   I've put as much material as what kind of guy Alex is on this thread as anyone.  I've talked up not to panic after last week and we need a bigger sample size -- and to your credit so did you.  I am among the people who talked up his intangibles.  If those type of intangibles don't move you, then fine.  If what he adds to the running game via backfield motion, RPOs, RO, doesn't move you either.  Fine.  Lets agree to disagree about his attributes.  You dismissing them with sarcasm doesn't make your take on what he brings superior.  It's just a difference of opinion.   And I am not exactly on an island by the way with that point -- plenty of NFL observers echoed exactly what I said.

 

 

10 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Yes, this is exactly what I feel. He has shared  being insecure, fickle minded, listening to outside noise, letting pressure get to him during his first 7 years with Niners. 

 

Where he’s at mentally is earned over time and experience. I understand this goes into the unquantifiable land though. 

 

Hes not the same dude he was in year 1 to 7... his words. 

 

 

Yes, he's a veteran.  So if your point is you don't care about the leadership stuff and its purely that he's been around so he's seen everything and those intangibles make him a winner.  I agree and disagree.  I agree that it helps.  But disagree that its the be all and end all attribute that makes him a winner.  Still think by a mile its QB skills matched to roster.

 

10 hours ago, wit33 said:

Kirk in my view while here was comparable to what Alex talks about he struggled with in his first 7 years. Just an outside opinion. 

 

 

I recall some of your posts about Kirk from the Kirk thread.  I don't feel going tit for tat on that here.  But I'll just say this comparing Kirk's years as a starter to Alex's first 7 years is ridiculous if you put their stats up to each other. The new improved veteran Alex barely keeps up with Kirk (2015-2017) with the exception of his last season.  My other point I'll make about Kirk and this is directed at others who have posted recently on the topic as opposed to you.  Kirk to me is a running commentary on the front office.  If people dig Bruce then I get the yawn, who cares what Kirk does drill.  But if they don't dig Bruce, its stunning to me how some don't get the connection between Kirk's performance and Bruce's future in the organization.  Multiple beat guys have pointed out the relevance.  But even if they didn't -- its pretty obvious.  Still, I am rooting for it to work out.  I always do.  But for me this is a no lose season aside from is Jay collateral damage -- if they play great then terrific and if not then we likely get needed changes in the FO.   Like always, I'll take the great season over anything else.  And I think as I've said many times, Alex is a playoff caliber QB but is the rest of the roster?  I am not sure.  Maybe like I told you if we get lucky with health 

[Sandy Monk]

I guess he did the right thing when asked about the Jordan Reed out route not enough out route question.

 

https://www.pscp.tv/Redskins/1DXxyYARjeVxM

 

He talked about the DB interference, and it was clear he disapproved of the no-call, but he wasn't willing to throw his TE under the bus like was deserved. I can't believe a vet like Jordan wouldn't finish the route; that was bizarre. 

^ around 6 minutes in

[Temper11]

5 hours ago, Rogue Jedi said:

I’d just like to point out that Alex has an absolute noodle arm. Probably bottom three in terms of starting QBs in the league.

 

That pass to Richardson barely made it ~43 yards and was underthrown.

 

Not saying he’s a bad QB, his strength is basically his mobility, timing, and placement in intermediate distances.

 

There’s probably a bit more caveat to the whole Alex has a “top deep passer rating” than it seems.

 

They probably judge a deep pass as anything longer than 30 yards. And I’m sure he hit a bunch in the 30-35 range last year.

 

But he basically needs his receiver to dust both the corner and the safety at around 35 yards where he can put it out  in front of him in-stride for the go-ahead.

 

Tyreek Hill was probably that fast where he did have the defense beat that quickly. He’s arguably the fastest man in the NFL right now.

 

But for those hoping that Alex will start airing it out more and taking deep shots, don’t hold your breath. I don’t think that’s really his game.

 

This based off of one underthrown ball in the rain.  You could see that the ball was a bit of a duck - he just didnt throw that ball well.  

 

He isn't the best arm talent in the league... no argument there, but this noodle arm crap is BS and stems from the whole Checkdown Charlie narrative - people just repeat it over and over and then look for examples to back up the BS. 

 

Don't guess about last year with Tyreek... just google it.  You'll see plenty of throws well down the field.  

 

[wit33]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Sarcasm?  If that's all you caught, then you missed a good chunk of my posts. 

 

I’ve not gathered through your postings that you’re a big supporter of Alex or the move as a whole. I understand these are two separate discussions, but overlap has taken place in your views, in my opinion.

 

With a great defense, run game and weapons around Alex, you think Alex will succeed. Is this right? This combination would make 40 guys in the NFL a winning QB. This is where Alex’s value is being overlooked— making want to highlight his intangibles, situational awareness and how it impacts a game. 

 

I appear to be a peg or two above yourself in my view is all. 

 

For example, the running narrative on this board and especially the national media will be the run game last week led the charge, especially if you look at statistics. But, as we all watched last week, it was the passing game that was featured in the first half that opened up the run. Alex will not receive much credit for this, because the statistics support people’s opinion, making them right. 

(All my opinion, open for debate)

 

 

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I have to admit of all the people on this thread your posts are the hardest ones for me to get a handle on.  Your posts come off subtle and careful -- sometimes with a negative undertone on Alex and sometimes a positive undertone in other posts.  Sometimes depending on the week.  This week its very positive.  So its hard for me to get a handle on your point.

 

An overall opinion is still being made is why. I’m still learning about Alex. 

 

When discussions are had like this, it makes it appear one side is on one extreme or the other. I put guys 8-25 (maybe less) in a similar category is all. We all obviously will have a better idea after the season. 

 

I felt no different about Alex after Colts than I do now. Have I learned he and Jay can bounce back together and win a game.? Yes! 

 

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I recall after last week, you posted he's a QB who struggles in the red zone and that might not change, you've said he's an average to above average QB -- talked about needed a good plan if I recall for him to win because he's a QB in the category of 7-25 range.  

 

Depending on the post, ironically I actually think more highly of Alex than you are.   I am solidly in that he's "good" and have been consistent on that point.  Not average to good.  But "good".   I've put as much material as what kind of guy Alex is on this thread than anyone.  I've talked up not to panic after last week and we need a bigger sample size -- and to your credit so did you.  I am among the people who talked up his intangibles.  If those type of intangibles don't move you, then fine.  If what he adds to the running game via backfield motion, RPOs, RO, doesn't move you either.  Fine.  Lets agree to disagree about his attributes.  You dismissing them with sarcasm doesn't make your take on what he brings superior.  It's just a difference of opinion.   And I am not exactly on an island by the way with that point -- plenty of NFL observers echoed exactly what I said.

 

Teams having to honor Alex as a runner is helpful with RPO/RO actions, no debate. Value exists here. I don’t believe Jay will use it to the degree or rate close to an Andy Reid. I like it sprinkled in during a game or the red zone. 

 

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Yes, he's a veteran.  So if your point is you don't care about the leadership stuff and its purely that he's been around so he's seen everything and those intangibles make him a winner.  I agree and disagree.  I agree that it helps.  But disagree that its the be all and end all attribute that makes him a winner.  Still think by a mile its QB skills matched to roster.

 

I don’t believe it’s close to being an end all be all. Skillset and roster are huge variables. I’ve tried to point to on field situational awareness as a form of leadership/intangible as it relates to actual results on field. 

 

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I recall some of your posts about Kirk from the Kirk thread.  I don't feel going tit for tat on that here.  But I'll just say this comparing Kirk's years as a starter to Alex's first 7 years is ridiculous if you put their stats up to each other. The new improved veteran Alex barely keeps up with Kirk (2015-2017) with the exception of his last season.  My other point I'll make about Kirk and this is directed at others who have posted recently on the topic as opposed to you.  Kirk to me is a running commentary on the front office.  If people dig Bruce then I get the yawn, who cares what Kirk does drill.  But if they don't dig Bruce, its stunning to me how some don't get the connection between Kirk's performance and Bruce's future in the organization.  Multiple beat guys have pointed out the relevance.  But even if they didn't -- its pretty obvious. 

 

Ya man, I don’t really get into the stats of Kirk while here (I like the touchdown stats). Moreso talking about his maturity and lack of self awareness (my opinion). Football was a different game 10-15 years ago when Alex was starting, yardage stats are expected now.... TDS are still of extreme value. 

 

I will own it if team struggles this year (not make playoffs or be damn close). I am more of a supporter of the rosters direction, which puts me in box with Bruce. I do believe if you fall on side of Kirk having culpability in contract negotiations it’s an easier avenue to being medium on Bruce. I understand there’s more to it with his history. 

 

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Still, I am rooting for it to work out.  I always do.  But for me this is a no lose season aside from is Jay collateral damage -- if they play great then terrific and if not then we likely get needed changes in the FO.   Like always, I'll take the great season over anything else.  And I think as I've said many times, Alex is a playoff caliber QB but is the rest of the roster?  I am not sure.  Maybe like I told you if we get lucky with health 

 

Agreed! 

[HardcoreZorn]

@wit33 I think you may be onto something in regards to Alex's on the field ability to command the huddle, put us in the correct formation, check to the right plays based off looks from the D, being careful with the football, etc. Those aren't things that are quantifiable in the box score. It's pretty boring if we are being real, and he's an easy target for fans to label check-down charlie, noodle arm, etc. Most people like stats and glamour. But I'll take wins, and Alex wins as many as anybody at that position.

 

Which takes me to my next point. Yes, supporting cast matters. Yes, scheme and coaching matter. But haven't we seen enough examples over the years of teams with their starting QBs go down that completely go in the pooper to realize how tangible of an impact the QB position has on the W/L column? I mean take Brees for example. Everyone talks about the 3 straight 7-9 seasons to support the notion that a supporting cast matters. Of course it does, but what about looking at this from the other side of things? How bad would the Saints have been had you plugged in Joe Schmo at QB instead of Brees? From 2014-2016 the Saints ranked 28,32, and 31 in points against. That's about as bad as it gets. The fact Brees was able to guide that team to 3 straight nearly .500 seasons while giving up nearly 30 points a game is a testament to his ability and his impact on the Saints record.

 

Of course there are examples of teams having such elite rosters that you can plug a Dilfer in and win the SB. But those are extremes. Many rosters from year to year don't fit that criteria. Smith began to put it together under Harbaugh and guide those 49ers teams to the playoffs? By himself? Surely not. But he had a big impact, and one of his best games he's ever played I would say was his playoff battle against Brees in 2011 I believe it was. He then goes to KC and helps guide that team from 2-14 to the playoffs the very next year. 5 Straight winning years, second to Tom Brady in wins since 2013. Comes to Washington and miracuously we are 2-1 for the first time in over a decade.

 

Let's give credit where credit is due and admit that Alex didn't just stumble into the above accolades because he was surrounded by the best talent and coaching staff year after year. QB's have a very large impact on the outcome of a game, and a lot of that impact does not show up in the box score. I fully realize it's far too early to make a determination on Alex in a Skins uniform, but I wholeheartedly disagree that you can't use W/L as a way to judge a QB as if it's completely dependent on what's surrounding him. QB's just make too much of a difference. Just my opinion.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

I’ve not gathered through your postings that you’re a big supporter of Alex or the move as a whole. I understand these are two separate discussions, but overlap has taken place in your views, in my opinion.

 

 

A. Supporter or not of Alex. 

B.  How good a QB is he. 

C.  Good trade or not trade.

 

All different questions.   I think everyone on this thread supports the dude.   As for question B, I think I've been pretty direct for a long time about thinking he's good but not great but my mind is open on that front.  As for C.  I hate the trade.  I've been crystal clear on it and have explained why and in so much detail that even I would be bored to repeat it.  And none of my reasons for hating the trade has to do with what I think of Alex.  I explained that plenty, too.

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

With a great defense, run game and weapons around Alex, you think Alex will succeed. Is this right? This combination would make 40 guys in the NFL a winning QB. This is where Alex’s value is being overlooked— making want to highlight his intangibles, situational awareness and how it impacts a game. 

 

 

Nope, I don't think so.  With a rare exception or two, like having an elite defense as an example.  But even in those cases its not hard to isolate bad QB play, see Bortles as an example.   Yeah if you take a mediocre QB or a bad one and surround them with weapons -- see Eli Manning -- the team's typically aren't winners.  Having a good QB is a big deal.  So I like having a good QB if I can surround them with really good players -- but again its about nuance, your roster, rosters age, what's available in the draft, etc.  Context.  Not every situation is exactly the same. 

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

This is where Alex’s value is being overlooked— making want to highlight his intangibles, situational awareness and how it impacts a game. 

 

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

An overall opinion is still being made is why. I’m still learning about Alex. 

 

 

OK.  If you think the dude is average to above average a week ago but your opinion of him is evolving after each week.  I get that.   But as a friendly reminder, I categorized Alex as a better player than you did just as recent as last week.  So I don't need to be sold on him from you, I already was good with him -- we just have a different view of his attributes, I dig different things about him than you do.  But more on point, I have a different view of QBs and whether they are winners and losers irrespective of this Alex Smith discussion. 

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

I don’t believe it’s close to being an end all be all. Skillset and roster are huge variables. I’ve tried to point to on field situational awareness as a form of leadership/intangible 

 

 

Sure, but you framed it in a heavier handed way than that.  If a Qb is a winner because of that intangible than that variable would have to be a big part of the soup, wouldn't it?

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

I will own it if team struggles this year (not make playoffs or be damn close). I am more of a supporter of the rosters direction, which puts me in box with Bruce. I do believe if you fall on side of Kirk having culpability in contract negotiations it’s an easier avenue to being medium on Bruce. I understand there’s more to it with his history. 

 

 

To that point, I think it makes the Alex discussion at times a bit off track.  Because I sense an undercurrent from some (not all) people who typically have had Bruce's back and or don't like Kirk and also those who feel the reverse of that as if its a factor in having Alex's back or not.   And while I do think Kirk/Alex and how the season unfolds is a variable in Bruce's future from what I hear.  I don't think about it for one whit while I am watching the games nor does it influence my philosophy on QBs.

 

And to that point, as much as I think Bruce is a douche and incompetent.  I think Alex is the opposite, a stand up guy, and competent.   

 

[nelsonal]

7 hours ago, Rogue Jedi said:

There’s probably a bit more caveat to the whole Alex has a “top deep passer rating” than it seems.

 

They probably judge a deep pass as anything longer than 30 yards. And I’m sure he hit a bunch in the 30-35 range last year.

 

"Deep passing" in statistics is often shorter than that, this stat includes everything that was in the air more than 20 yards. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Cool. I got some fresh material on my Alex Smith-running game point/RPO/RO.  And in my defense, I am a freak about the power of a running game.  I talked about it in every QB thread over the years I can think of. I talked about it to death in the draft thread.  IMO you need a balanced offense to win -- unless you have an elite QB.  And that goes double when it gets cold later in the year and ditto on the off chance you make the playoffs and are playing in January.

 

As for Alex, watching the games I did.  That's what i loved in particular.  it's not that I hated everything else -- as I've said many times he's a good passer IMO but nothing special.  The special element to me potentially is the run game and if Alex exceeds my expectations (instead of good -- he's great) -- that's where I suspect it will come from at least for me because its what floats my boat.  ?

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2018/09/25/redskins-running-game-is-much-improved-this-year-can-they-keep-it-up/?utm_term=.0e3ca37c8a0f

Alex Smith has had a positive impact. Smith has 48 rushing yards to his name, which is more than 10 percent of the team’s total on the ground. If you take out three kneel downs that count as rushing attempts, he has had three designed runs on options, two quarterback sneaks and taken off 10 times on passing plays to scramble for yardage.

 

Those scrambling plays are worth noting simply because of the inflating effect they have on the raw rushing totals, but it’s the option plays that are interesting when it comes to how Washington is scheming assistance to the run game.

 

Washington has deployed a read-option look from Smith 16 times this season, which is tied for the fourth-most in the league. Carolina is way out in front with 33 such plays, but no other team is above 20. In theory, defenses should always respect the threat of the quarterback running in the read-option game, but we have seen in the past that this look is at its most effective when the quarterback is actually a viable threat to exploit it. Smith is athletic enough to do so, and that creates some more space inside for the running backs, even without Smith keeping it himself very often.

 

The play-calling and schematic wrinkles have been effective. With the line not playing at its usual level, the credit for the team’s success in the ground game goes not just to Smith and the running backs, but the diversity in the team’s schemes.

 

Some teams rely on just a couple of different broad run concepts all season, varying only the plays within those broad buckets, but the Redskins have mixed it up. They have deployed inside zone, outside zone, duo and power run concepts each on more than 15 percent of their attempts, and counter plays on another 9 percent, meaning defenses can’t simply dial into defending one or two specific blocking concepts.

 

They have also effectively employed run-pass option plays, or RPOs. Smith ran these a lot last season with the Kansas City Chiefs, and they effectively fold in multiple options on one play, putting the defense in an impossible situation where they are caught in a wrong alignment no matter how they choose to defend it. Since the start of the 2017 season, run RPOs have averaged 4.4 yards per carry, compared to just 4.0 yards per carry on rush attempts that did not have an RPO element, and that’s not even factoring in the free yardage these plays manufacture in the passing game.

 

This season, Washington has averaged 4.7 yards per carry on RPO plays, a tick better than their non-RPO carries. The Redskins have run RPO plays 23 times this season, fourth in the league behind only the Chiefs, Eagles and Bears.

 

The fact that so much of the running game success has been the result of the team’s running backs and play-calling can lead to one of two conclusions: 1.) The success is unsustainable, and that the poor run-blocking will catch up to the Redskins; or 2.) The potential for the run-blocking to return to its normal level, when combined with elusive running backs, a mobile QB and smart coaching, means this could be one of the better ground games in the NFL this season.

 

The track records of players like Williams, Scherff and Moses seems to point toward the latter, even if Peterson can’t maintain his hot start all season long. If they do, defenses are going to have a tough time combating Washington’s rushing offense in the weeks to come.

 

 

[Sandy Monk]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

With a great defense, run game and weapons around Alex, you think Alex will succeed. Is this right? This combination would make 40 guys in the NFL a winning QB. This is where Alex’s value is being overlooked— making want to highlight his intangibles, situational awareness and how it impacts a game. 

 

 

I'd love to see some direct answer to this, but am fighting self to be patient and not interject. I think I can determine what is what here, but I really don't want to overstep in the small chance of being wrong on it. ( pssst again )

[wit33]

48 minutes ago, Sandy Monk said:

 

I'd love to see some direct answer to this, but am fighting self to be patient and not interject. I think I can determine what is what here, but I really don't want to overstep in the small chance of being wrong on it. ( pssst again )

 

Please interject. I love talking football (primarily, Skins football) and enjoy taking in other’s perspectives.

 

Im gathering (still learning about Alex, but feel I’m getting a good idea of what makes him tick) that Alex in his mind feels he’s elite with how he manages each individual teammate, game, drive, throw, situation, and how he utilizes his legs. I really believe he thinks there’s no one better at these skills/intangibles in the NFL. This mindset allows him to believe he can compete with any QB or team on a given day. I think it’s to point of Alex not wanting to let the defense down with a 3 and out or below average field position— he seems that anal about it all and love it! I value these attributes and can envision how over a 16 game season it can culminate into a successful season. 

 

For me these things smack me in the face, due to my belief Kirk lacked many of these on a consistent basis.

**For all, truly not taking a shot at Kirk or attempting to get any discussion of comparing the two at length, it’s my opinion. 

 

 

[Sandy Monk]

5 hours ago, wit33 said:

Please interject. I love talking football

 

I do too, but I'm trying to not assume or proclaim too much of what is in another person's head (in this case, SIP's). I seem to anger people with this.

 

5 hours ago, wit33 said:

Alex in his mind feels he’s elite

 

5 hours ago, wit33 said:

I really believe he thinks there’s no one better at these skills/intangibles in the NFL.

 

FWIW, I agree with your full post, and your posts in general. In this case, I advise caution on ever using the words "Alex" and "elite" together. 

 

? 

[wit33]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24801136/how-nfl-teams-trade-young-qb-starters-thrive-bill-barnwell-2018

 

This article discusses the extreme idea of the potentially new QB market in years to come. Contracts for QBs was debated a great deal here and there’s no necessarily right or wrong, but it does seem FOs are going to be open to other options than paying guys who are competent elite money. 

 

Were the Skins ahead of the curve? Outside of not receiving value in return ?  The Skins didn’t elect to go with the extreme of a rookie QB, but decided to get Smith who will average to be around 10% of the cap. 

 

Fascinating stuff in my view, things are set to change how the QBs are paid, in my opinion. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

14 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Were the Skins ahead of the curve? Outside of not receiving value in return ?  The Skins didn’t elect to go with the extreme of a rookie QB, but decided to get Smith who will average to be around 10% of the cap. 

Call me crazy but I don’t think getting nothing in return for a starting quarterback & paying a 34 year old quarterback marginally less than the top of the market is going to set a new trend in the NFL.

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

41 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Call me crazy but I don’t think getting nothing in return for a starting quarterback & paying a 34 year old quarterback marginally less than the top of the market is going to set a new trend in the NFL.

 

 

 

 

Ex-agent, Joel Corry has said the Redskins FO has put on a clinic for the rest of the league about how NOT to use the franchise tag and how despite how Bruce looked at it -- the agent doesn't see it as a friendly rental where the figure of the tag is irrelevant to the negotiation.   He flat out said a lot of teams watched and will learn from the Redskins mismanagement of the negotiation and won't repeat their mistakes.  Yeah and I agree the getting nothing for the franchise QB aside from a comp pick -- I doubt will ever see that one either ever again.  The Eagles have to be laughing at the one in particular, they've gotten kings ransoms for QBs with much less pedigree than Kirk and not just once but over and over again.

 

Some interesting points in that article related to here

 

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24801136/how-nfl-teams-trade-young-qb-starters-thrive-bill-barnwell-2018

 

...This is the obvious question, and it's going to stop the most risk-averse teams from even exploring the possibilities. A general manager who trades away a useful quarterback entering his prime to draft a new passer who fails to win fans over is going to get fired. General managers do not want to get fired.

 

... the Chiefs were willing to trade up to grab Patrick Mahomesin the first round of the 2017 draft despite the presence of Alex Smith. Smith is older than the quarterbacks we're laying out in this scenario, but then-GM John Dorsey clearly felt as if the team had peaked with Smith under center and made the move to go after Mahomes. We're only four games into Mahomes' career, but the Chiefs look to have the scariest offense in football.

[HardcoreZorn]

47 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Call me crazy but I don’t think getting nothing in return for a starting quarterback & paying a 34 year old quarterback marginally less than the top of the market is going to set a new trend in the NFL.

 

 

 

I hate more than anybody they received nothing in return, as I've said before I would have traded him after 2016 under his first franchise tag.

 

But they absolutely do seem to be ahead of the curve when it comes to not paying a guy the new market value just because he's a QB and he's pretty good. And from a cap perspective over the next three years, which is what we/FO should care about when it comes to surrounding said QB with talent, Smith's deal with us and Cousins with the Vikings aren't even close. For example, Smith's cap hit next year will be in the 20's while Cousins will be top 5-6 I believe. So while the Vikings may or may not be receiving a QB that justifies that large of a cap hit, the Redskins will almost certainly be receiving a better return on investment at that position, which has been rare with the crazy QB market these days. So yes, they took a much different approach and I think you'll see other teams do the same.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

59 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Call me crazy but I don’t think getting nothing in return for a starting quarterback & paying a 34 year old quarterback marginally less than the top of the market is going to set a new trend in the NFL.

 

2

 

Agree with the first part, but Smith is definitely not getting paid "marginally less" than the top of the market. He's getting paid significantly less than top of the market. 

 

 

[HardcoreZorn]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Ex-agent, Joel Corry has said the Redskins FO has put on a clinic for the rest of the league about how NOT to use the franchise tag and how despite how Bruce looked at it -- the agent doesn't see it as a friendly rental where the figure of the tag is irrelevant to the negotiation.   He flat out said a lot of teams watched and will learn from the Redskins mismanagement of the negotiation and won't repeat their mistakes.  Yeah and I agree the getting nothing for the franchise QB aside from a comp pick -- I doubt will ever see that one either ever again.  The Eagles have to be laughing at the one in particular, they've gotten kings ransoms for QBs with much less pedigree than Kirk and not just once but over and over again.

This isn't the first time you don't seem to be comparing apples to apples, but I won't delve into that. I will simply say, yes I'm sure teams did learn. But nobody had dared to do what Cousins and his agent had done, likely because the market was booming at the exact time his contract came up, thus making the one year franchise salary more palatable. But make no mistake, it was an unprecedented situation which I have attempted to discuss multiple times to no avail as never before was the franchise tag salary used as a benchmark for the annual salary over the course of a deal. Ever. But you can continue to act as if this was some normal run of the mill decision that we tripped all over and are a laughing stock.

[wit33]

55 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Call me crazy but I don’t think getting nothing in return for a starting quarterback & paying a 34 year old quarterback marginally less than the top of the market is going to set a new trend in the NFL.

 

 

 

 

Tough to argue not getting any return value outside of the 3rd round compensator pick. I do believe the Skins thought they had a chance at playoffs last year with Kirk and rolled the dice. It’s getting tough with player negotiations and will continue to get more difficult. It will be roughly 8-10 per year less. 

 

The Skins situation is similar to that of Steelers, but the QB position has much less injury risk, so Kirk was down to play on tag. 

 

The Skins obviously didn’t go the rookie contract route or even McCoy, but got value with Smith deal when considering the volatile QB market these days. Team has control for next 5 years. Vikings for 3 years. 

 

The QB market is set to change. 

[Skinsinparadise]

38 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

But you can continue to act as if this was some normal run of the mill decision that we tripped all over and are a laughing stock.

 

You argument is it was normal how they played it in the context of they didn't anticipate Kirk would react the way he did.   To that point, I'll say the closest version to that among the local people is Chris Cooley's version of what he heard.  Cooley acknowledges he likes Bruce.  Cooley said multiple times that Bruce thought Kirk was an eager-beaver type who would be so thrilled to get a lot of money from the Redskins that he could get him at a bargain and negotiated with him in that way  where he was convinced he'd get Kirk at a steal.  Kirk and his agent weren't baited into that and that surprised him but he kept at it until it was too late.   

 

I've read your version of what went down on the Kirk contract many times and it comes off of a variation of Bruce was playing the negotiation mostly straight up.  Kirk wanted much.  Bruce didn't budge to Kirk's high demands.  Case closed.   Yeah there is more to it but most of that is noise.   

 

If I saw it that way, I'd be bothered by criticism of Bruce, too.  But to me that version is not even close.  I had Bruce's back on the negotiation until 2017 unfolded.  My opinion isn't stuck on a needle but at least in my mind my opinion evolved the more i saw and the more i heard.   But we've debated this a gazillion times so lets continue to agree to disagree. And I don't want to derail this thread into another debate about Bruce, I tried to veer the post you quoted from that subject into Alex discussion to veer it back on point. 

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

I feel like I'm going to have this love hate relationship with Alex Smith all season long.

[HardcoreZorn]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You argument is it was normal how they played it in the context of they didn't anticipate Kirk would react the way he did.   To that point, I'll say the closest version to that among the local people is Chris Cooley's version of what he heard.  Cooley acknowledges he likes Bruce.  Cooley said multiple times that Bruce thought Kirk was an eager-beaver type who would be so thrilled to get a lot of money from the Redskins that he could get him at a bargain and negotiated with him in that way  where he was convinced he'd get Kirk at a steal.  Kirk and his agent weren't baited into that and that surprised him.   

 

I've read your version of what went down on the Kirk contract many times and it comes off of a variation of Bruce was playing the negotiation mostly straight up.  Kirk wanted much.  Bruce didn't budge to Kirk's high demands.  Case closed.   Yeah there is more to it but most of that is noise.   

 

If I saw it that way, I'd be bothered by criticism of Bruce, too.  But to me that version is not even close.  I had Bruce's back on the negotiation until 2017 unfolded.  My opinion isn't stuck on a needle but at least in my mind my opinion evolved the more i saw and the more i heard.   But we've debated this a gazillion times so lets continue to agree to disagree. And I don't want to derail this thread into another debate about Bruce, I tried to veer the post you quoted from that subject into Alex discussion to veer it back on point. 

I honestly don't disagree with the first part. While I don't know, I honestly could have seen that happening from what I've heard/read about how Bruce does deals.

 

As far as how I see it, no there is far far more that went into it in my opinion but you would have to go dig up old posts as I don't have the energy to rehash and as you said, probably best not to derail the thread.

 

I'm not bothered by Bruce criticism, at all. Again, I think if you are going to play hardball as Bruce did, you need to eventually catch onto the fact that Cousins was  going to leverage his situation into a max deal with us or move on. And if he were unwilling to pay said deal, it's inexcusable to to not net something for such a valuable asset just because you are stubborn and think he will lead us to the playoffs and save your job or whatever. Poor foresight, and that's what he's being paid to do, see things before they come. So I'm just as critical as anybody when it comes to Bruce in that regard.

 

But the way you present Corry's take about mismanagement while failing to take into consideration all of the components that went into it is what bothers me. But yeah, probably best to not go down that road. I am thankful they got out of a really bad situation with what seems to be one of better options they could have gone with at a substantially lower portion of the cap. And excited to see how the rest of this season unfolds with Alex at the helm!