Let's All Get Behind Alex Smith! Or Not!! (M.E.T.) NO kirk talk---that goes in ATN forum

[JSSkinz]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

So what.  It has nothing to do with anything I said.  Russell by the way just minutes ago blasting Bruce on air, saying Dan is upset at him.  i am gathering he's going to elaborate shortly.

So people are viewing Bruce in the building being openly angry about Kirk?  It sounds so ridiculous.

 

24 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But you are missing the forrest for the trees.  Kirk's issue wasn't that Scot was fired -- his issue was the behavior around it.    Scot by the way in the fall of 2017 said at that point the Redskins needed to do whatever they can to lock Kirk up LT.

What behavior, the fact the media made it sound like the Skins just made up a story to get the GM ousted which we found out wasn't true?

Also, what does Kirk know about firing people, he's a few years out of college and in his first real job.  Firing someone who has issues with dependency is not easy and there are no easy or good ways to do it.

 

As for Scott saying we should do everything to get Kirk signed in 2017, well thanks Scott, appreciate the fact it took you 2 years to figure that out and now that were flat on our backs and the QB has turned on us its great to know he finally came around.

 

Did any of us really need Scott to tell us that, I think we all knew by that point, the whole problem here is we paid the "best NFL talent scout" to have some foresight and he didn't?

 

32 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

What Keim (who is no flame thrower) said they knew he'd do a press release.  But they were surprised about the editorial portion of it.  That put them off.  But like I said if you want to blame Kirk for playing nice publicly and that being a bit phony -- that seems to be true according to some of the people who covered the story. 

I gave examples earlier on how you address that in a professional manner without lying, basically, you're saying he didn't mean what he said on the Grant and Danny show, I say bull****.

 

34 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am aware of everything you mentioned.  But dude its like any long contract negotiation or for that matter narrative.  Timing and context is part of the narrative.  If you ignore all of that -- you are likely missing a key part of the plot.  What else did these same people say.  When did they say it?  What was going on each period.   Fall of 2015 different than winter of 2016 different from winter of 2017 different from Spring of 2017 different from Summer of 2017.  

I know you're well informed, I like the content you provide and hope you don't hold this against me in the future but I respectfully disagree that Kirk was so wronged that he just couldn't sign here.  I won't argue that Bruce isn't a douche because he comes off a bit slimy but if you dig in you'll probably find most of those guys in those positions have rubbed someone the wrong way at one time or another and in the end its about the coaches and the team, do you care about them or not and IMO Kirk didn't.

 

This was exhausting and I never want to debate this again.

 

I just wish we could hold Alex accountable for being a poor QB without hearing Kirks name being brought up each time.

[Tsailand]

16 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

until we win a game that isn't dominated by the defense and a good running game, I won't be convinced that Smith has gotten us a W we couldn't have gotten with Colt.

 

Colt's stats in spot duty here: 98/139 (70.5%), 1185 yards, 5 TDs, 3 ints, 18 sacks (!) for minus-130 yards.

 

It is not great, but in retrospect it would have been better to do one season of Colt while we build up the O-line and WRs.

 

9 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

I just wish we could hold Alex accountable for being a poor QB without hearing Kirks name being brought up each time.

 

That is not possible, given that Kirk was still under contract with us at the time we traded for Alex.

 

Until Kirk retires, he is going to be in the conversation every time a Redskins QB fails.  Alex, Colt, 2019 drafted QB, 2022 drafted QB, whomever.

[Morneblade]

14 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

 

I just wish we could hold Alex accountable for being a poor QB without hearing Kirks name being brought up each time.

 

We can do that. In fact it has been done. And I'm not trying to jump on you, really. I'm as sick as you are about having this whole discussion on Smith/Cousins "thing".

 

But, because of the way things happened, the 2 will be intertwined for at least a while. And because Cousins was the last QB, there will be comparisons made because this is essentially the same offense (and you could say it's better with AP) than Cousins had. It's hard not to bring him in when you're judging Smith and how he is doing. It's going to be hard to really judge Smith in a vacuum.

 

It's like the whole RGIII/Cousins thing all over. That OL that was putrid in pass pro all of a sudden got a lot better with Cousins. It's hard not to compare, because one of them is literally the "bar".

 

But, it can be done. I've tried to stay away from even mentioning Cousins when talking about Smith, just for that reason.

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Kirk and Alex will forever be linked due to how things went down.  To think it wont be talked about ad nauseum is a bit naive.  Perhaps it dies down next season but it’s a more than relevant topic of discussion and will continue to be for a long while.

 

I’m certain Alex will have a good week when Kirk has a bad game eventually and the tides will turn.

[JSSkinz]

7 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

I find this post strange.  I don't know what you mean by 8 good games or sign me now or never but why should the fact that the Skins squandered picks on Griffin have an impact on Kirk's salary?  Also, the Skins actually blew 3 first round and 1 second round pick (almost a whole offensive line) on Griffin.

Because he had 8 good games in 2015 and then that's when the fun started.

 

We swapped a 1st rounder so the net loss was 2 first rounders and a 2nd.

 

The reason the squandered picks have an impact is anyone who is in that position (unless they are inhuman) would be hesitant to commit with such a small sample size. 

 

Let me try to give you an example.

 

Let's say you're an investor and you exchanged a couple million of your hard earned money for equity because you thought to invest in this business was a no-brainer, but that business failed and you lose everything.

 

So 2 years later you get back on your feet and you're finally ready to look at new business opportunities, you have one that currently sits on your desk and it seems interesting but risky because the sales are low, in 2013 and 2014 the gross annual was around $500,000 and in the first 2 quarters of 2015 the revenue was hedging the same at about $250,000 (on pace for another $500k year) but then all the sudden the gross sales in quarters 3 and 4 of 2015 spike and generate $1.75M in revenue to finish the year at $2M and completely blowout all previous years earnings. Now the company wants to borrow $2M because they think they are a $2M a year company but the data doesn't really support that yet. 

 

There's something about this business you like and you think there might be something there so you're intrigued but what do you do?

 

This is basically the Kirk Cousins situation just in different terms.

[Tsailand]

2 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

There's something about this business you like and you think there might be something there so you're intrigued but what do you do? 

 

Well maybe you should evaluate the fundamentals and use that to decide what the business is worth.

 

But if you're Bruce/Dan, you can't evaluate player talent, so you are left at looking at QB wins and losses and maybe ESPN highlight reels.

[JSSkinz]

10 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’m certain Alex will have a good week when Kirk has a bad game eventually and the tides will turn.

That is so petty, to think people need to sit back and wait for the other guy to suck just to get a few shots in, it's just garbage.

 

I wont do it no matter what happens, plus I'm heavily invested in Diggs and Rudolph. ?

3 minutes ago, Tsailand said:

 

Well maybe you should evaluate the fundamentals and use that to decide what the business is worth.

 

But if you're Bruce/Dan, you can't evaluate player talent, so you are left at looking at QB wins and losses and maybe ESPN highlight reels.

What about Scott, he was considered the best talent evaluator in the NFL when we hired him, at least one of the best.

 

Why did he miss?  I know the answer I'm just playing along with you.

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 minute ago, JSSkinz said:

That is so petty

 

Ah, but the life of a Skins fan.  Or any sports fan, in general.

 

If Smith balled out yesterday and the Skins won while Cousins performed poorly and the Vikes lost, there'd be a very different feel around here just based off one game.  

 

The funny thing so far is people are blasting him for his checkdowns...I mean, what'd anyone expect?  That's what Alex Smith is known for.  To channel the inner Dennis Green, he is who we thought he was.

 

Is it fun to watch?  Not really.  He just takes what a defense gives him.  

 

But he looked off last night, no doubt about it.  Whole team did.  

 

I am not writing Smith off just yet but my initial gut reaction is that this was a mistake.  

 

 

[Tsailand]

7 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

What about Scott, he was considered the best talent evaluator in the NFL when we hired him, at least one of the best.

 

Why did he miss?

 

He's a great scout, not a great GM.  And he is used to building teams that have a hot QB still on the rookie contract.  I don't think he's ever paid market value for a QB.

 

Quote

I know the answer I'm just playing along with you.

 

Oh, and also he wanted to sign Kirk on the cheap early in the 2015 season, before Kirk got the chance to ball out.  And Bruce overruled him.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

41 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

So people are viewing Bruce in the building being openly angry about Kirk?  It sounds so ridiculous.

 

 

When did I say that?  I said Russell said Dan is angry at Bruce and said I assume he's about to say about what.

 

41 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

Also, what does Kirk know about firing people, he's a few years out of college and in his first real job.  Firing someone who has issues with dependency is not easy and there are no easy or good ways to do it.

 

It's about the leak to the press -- the WP story I gather.  When most talk about how they mishandled Scot, that's typically the theme. I flat out said I didn't gather it was about that he was fired but how it was handled.  Maybe Keim and others are just making it up -- like I said believe what you want.  You asked me to tell you Bruce's connection to this.  I did.  If you don't want to believe it.  That's fine.  I don't care.  It's your right to believe whatever you want.

 

41 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

I gave examples earlier on how you address that in a professional manner without lying, basically, you're saying he didn't mean what he said on the Grant and Danny show, I say bull****.

 

 

Ok, so your point is he really was totally cool with the press release.  And Keim, Breer and others are stirring up trouble that isn't true that his camp had a beef with it.  My gut is you are wrong.  But no way to know.  So again obviously you can think what you like.  No way to know for sure. 

 

41 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

 

I know you're well informed, I like the content you provide and hope you don't hold this against me in the future but I respectfully disagree that Kirk was so wronged that he just couldn't sign here. 

 

Thanks.  I don't hold (or try not to) grudges about people who disagree as long as the exchange is cordial.  Sometimes in the heat of a discussion I say things I regret but I try to stay cool.  Am not always successful at it.  But yeah for me Bruce is by a mile my button.  And its not really per se about him but about Dan putting him in that position.

[JSSkinz]

Every time I get involved in one of these 4 pager's I want to kick myself. 

 

I have nothing left, been beaten down, gotta sign off for the night.?

[London Kev]

I liked Kirk and really wanted him to sign a LTD. But he moved on and I don't really care how he does now (although I was mildly interested in how he would play in his first game as a Viking).

 

I know that it's only been four games but I'm not impressed with Smith at all, in fact I think his style of play is boring. I very rarely slag off our players outside of the Gameday Thread. I think the last time was either Tyler (turnstyle) Polumbus or Donovan (worm-killer) McNugget.

 

Anyway, Alex (dink & dunk) Smith has joined the list. WTF the fanboys see in him I just don't understand. Sure he seems like a nice bloke and all, but as a QB he has pretty much sucked so far. I would rather watch Colt throw a few interceptions while actually trying to win the game than death by a thousand check-downs.

[Tsailand]

 

3 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

If Smith balled out yesterday and the Skins won while Cousins performed poorly and the Vikes lost, there'd be a very different feel around here just based off one game. 

 

That is how it was after Week 3 when Alex won and Kirk lost.

 

Week-to-week is a small sample size.  By the end of the season we will have a real good picture of both QBs.

 

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Just now, Tsailand said:

 

 

That is how it was after Week 3 when Alex won and Kirk lost.

 

Week-to-week is a small sample size.  By the end of the season we will have a real good picture of both QBs.

 

 

 

Exactly. 

 

I just...am not getting my hopes up.  

[SkinsFTW]

4 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

I would be be far more worked up if we had made a Griffin like trade to replace Kirk. From the looks of it, I don’t think we gave up THAT much to secure competent QB play.

 

No, but they sure gave up a ton to reunite with John Beck or even at best Jason Campbell.

[DJHJR86]

9 hours ago, Tsailand said:

By the end of the season we will have a real good picture of both QBs.

 

We already have a good picture of who Alex Smith is.  He's a 14 season vet, and to have a horrible game like he did on Monday is insane.  He missed open receivers, was inaccurate, and to top it all off, Gruden has said that maybe they need to simplify things going forward.  Now he didn't specifically mention the offense, but I thought that was telling.  This isn't a year 1 or 2 starter.  He's been in the league for 14 seasons.  He's supposed to be this magnificent upgrade over Cousins due to his veteran status.  QB's have bad games.  Not bad games where they look like John Beck.  That's scary.  He also really hasn't been that good in the games we've won.  Not bad.  Not good.  That's who he is.  16 games isn't going to change that.  2017 was an outlier.  He's not magically altering his game at this point.  If opposing defenses stop the run and play soft zone we are going to struggle.  That's exactly what the Colts did.  And they aren't exactly world beaters.  

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

We already have a good picture of who Alex Smith is.  He's a 14 season vet, and to have a horrible game like he did on Monday is insane.  He missed open receivers, was inaccurate, and to top it all off, Gruden has said that maybe they need to simplify things going forward.  Now he didn't specifically mention the offense, but I thought that was telling.  This isn't a year 1 or 2 starter.  He's been in the league for 14 seasons.  He's supposed to be this magnificent upgrade over Cousins due to his veteran status.  QB's have bad games.  Not bad games where they look like John Beck.  That's scary.  He also really hasn't been that good in the games we've won.  Not bad.  Not good.  That's who he is.  16 games isn't going to change that.  2017 was an outlier.  He's not magically altering his game at this point.  If opposing defenses stop the run and play soft zone we are going to struggle.  That's exactly what the Colts did.  And they aren't exactly world beaters.  

 

He had a bad game but so did the rest of the team. Yea, he had some bad throws but the WRs also ran some poor routes. And the o-line was swiss cheese. Every time they needed a play their Dline was in our backfield off the snap. But it was a bad game plan. Where were the designed roll outs? How about some screens to someone not named Chris Thompson. There has to be someone who can catch. NO secondary are a bunch of rookies and journeyman who have been getting torched all year. Where were the deep throws. Even if you don't connect you make the D respect it, especially since they have been beat all year. 

 

No one was saying he was "this magnificent upgrade over Cousins". I have not seen one person anywhere say something like that. At most a few have said they feel he is a slight upgrade over Kirk. The very large majority has said he is about the same with one major detractor being his age. So that's a false narrative. And saying he has not been good in the games we won is also completely false. In fact through 3 games, Alex had almost the exact same numbers - including Ws as Kirk did through 3 games last year. 

 

This loss was a team loss. No one did their job. Not the coaches, not the players. The D after starting so well the first 3 games, looked like the same D we have had since Jay got here - at one point NO had scored on 7 of 9 possessions. The two they didn't score on? The end of the half and a fumble. The penalties on D really set the tone of the entire game. Especially the one against Nicholson. That may be the dumbest penalty I have seen in years. Big sack. Stopped their D on 3rd down. And you shove a guy for no reason! I would have benched him the rest of the game. Then found a way to fine him. Maybe even pulled a Belichick and released him from the team. 

 

Need to make a statement to these players and start doing a better job of holding them accountable. 

 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

@goskins10 No doubt it was a team loss.  They gave up over 40.  But Alex was dreadful.  I didn’t think he had that level of dreadful in him.  While I don’t expect that type of performance every week, it was scary because it was the culmination of all my fears about his play (happy feet, not looking downfield, not so hot arm, etc) on display.  It wasn’t a good sign that we’ll ever be able to win a game against an explosive offense.

[OVCChairman]

5 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

This loss was a team loss. No one did their job. Not the coaches, not the players. The D after starting so well the first 3 games, looked like the same D we have had since Jay got here - at one point NO had scored on 7 of 9 possessions. The two they didn't score on? The end of the half and a fumble. The penalties on D really set the tone of the entire game. Especially the one against Nicholson. That may be the dumbest penalty I have seen in years. Big sack. Stopped their D on 3rd down. And you shove a guy for no reason! I would have benched him the rest of the game. Then found a way to fine him. Maybe even pulled a Belichick and released him from the team. 

 

Need to make a statement to these players and start doing a better job of holding them accountable. 

 

 

 

 

 

THANK YOU!

 

At the end of the 1st quarter it was 6-3, and we were actually doing exactly what we needed to do.  We gave up a TD but we had a 15 play for 56 yards that took up 8:04.  In the 1st quarter we had the ball for 9:10.  Then we fell apart.  

 

 

@BatteredFanSyndrome  What we have to really remember, is that I don't think any team in the league wins that game vs the Saints.  With everything that was going on, in their building.... that was not a 'normal' explosive offense.  New Orleans didnt punt 1 time all game.  They were literally firing on ALL cylinders and I have a hard time coming up with any team that would have shut them down.  We got beat by a better team, on one of those nights that they were just untouchable.  What's funny about it, is we actually held Kamara and Ingram under 100 yards combined rushing.  Thats probably because they were having their way with us in the pass game, but I'm sure we went into that with the run defense being a focus, and when Kamara and Ingram have a combined 22 carries for 77 yards.... 

 

Brees was 26/29 for 363.  what do you do with that?  Elite QBs have games like that.  Brett Favre after his dad died... 

[goskins10]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

@goskins10 No doubt it was a team loss.  They gave up over 40.  But Alex was dreadful.  I didn’t think he had that level of dreadful in him.  While I don’t expect that type of performance every week, it was scary because it was the culmination of all my fears about his play (happy feet, not looking downfield, not so hot arm, etc) on display.  It wasn’t a good sign that we’ll ever be able to win a game against an explosive offense.

 

That's an negative exaggeration of his performance. He had some bad throws and looked a little jumpy at times. He had virtually zero time to throw much of the night and the WRs did nothing to help him. Putting it on Alex and claiming he had a game like John Beck so therefore he is that bad a QB overall (as the other poster did) is a false narrative. 

 

I have seen Peyton Manning have games just like this, even worse (I lived in IN most of the time Manning was there and almost every game). And no, I am not saying Alex Smith is anything close to Peyton Manning. My point is making some proclamation about Alex and the rest of the season based on a bad game where the team did nothing to help at all, is unreasonable and ignores other players, even HOF QBs have bad games - and yes games that bad and worse. 

 

 

 

[markmills67]

If Smith stays for 3 years how much money would he officially make?.

 

 

 

HTTR 

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

No one was saying he was "this magnificent upgrade over Cousins". I have not seen one person anywhere say something like that. At most a few have said they feel he is a slight upgrade over Kirk. The very large majority has said he is about the same with one major detractor being his age. So that's a false narrative. And saying he has not been good in the games we won is also completely false. In fact through 3 games, Alex had almost the exact same numbers - including Ws as Kirk did through 3 games last year. 

 

 

I talked about this in the off season, depends on the observer, there were some who said he would be a noticeable downgrade from Kirk, guys like the football outsiders guy, Andy Benoit suggested significant downgrade, and a series of others thought downgrade.  Some thought he was an upgrade, Farrar, some thought noticeable upgrade like Polian, Reddick and some others, too.  As for fans whether its this board or twitter -- some thought upgrade, some thought downgrade, some thought even. The Redskins fans I follow on twitter, if I had to guess, I'd say about 80% of them thought he was an upgrade especially as the season approached. 

 

There were underlying narratives though in the mix.  Is Alex Smith the 2017 version or was that a later career outlier? The Football Outsiders guy thought it was an outlier with an explanation for it.  And some others said if he is who he was before 2017 than he's a hands down downgrade especially if Kirk is who some of his biggest fans (Shanny among others) think he is which is a QB who has been limited in DC by his supporting cast and just getting better.  The converse argument to that was the 2017 season was Alex just finding his stride, he's an emerging on the rise QB (Reddick). Reddick said something to the effect that he wasn't a big Alex Smith guy at all but the new 2017 version made him a convert.

 

So I liked to say there are people all over the map.  My take was he is a downgrade but not a major one.  After the first four games to my eyes (not just the stats that say the same) Kirk looks like a distinctly sharper QB.  I haven't posted the articles here but there are multiple ones out there right now about how Kirk has shown he's distinctly better.  And the comparison's will continue as they should - as an article I just read from Ben Standig pointed out.

 

I thought Alex was atrocious on Monday night.  I think he was poor against the Colts.  I think he played good but not great against Arizona, He was great against GB.  I think the movie needs to play out.  But for me at least, he's surprisingly a distinct downgrade thus far.  If we want to compare him to Kirk's weak start last year, OK I get that.  But as to my eye test, he doesn't have a lot of zip on his balls, he looks uncomfortable at times in the pocket. -- and I've noticed some of the things his critics have said about him more distinctly now that I am watching him in a Redskins uniform. A lot of the people who went out of their way to say Alex isn't great where people who covered him in KC but they all said he's a great guy, though.

 

And I've said this to death, he needs a running game going.  He's a totally different QB when that happens.  He doesn't come off like a QB who is going to go toe to toe with the Brees types in shoot outs.  IMO his strength is the RPO and how it supplements the running game.  I posted here that before the game Finlay learned that Alex is frustrated that the offense isn't incorporating more RPOs.   I always think a blow out can teaches lessons.  So maybe they do more of the things that Alex wants to and we see them rebound.  My gut is they will.   And maybe that was just an outlier for Alex -- Keim said he heard that Alex had a bad week of practice leading up to it.  So maybe it was just one of those bad games that happen to everyone.  And I suspect it is.  But regardless, on the aggregate I haven't loved Alex's play in the first 4 games, haven't hated it either, so so to me.   But its a small sample, and he deserves time. 

 

I think the next game should be telling.  Carolina's defense was carved up by Eli Manning.  I watched Carolina's last game.  I wasn't impressed.  This team should come out angry and ready.  Jay typically does well in games coming off of a loss.  It's a perfect storm for a rebound game from Alex.  And I am sticking to I still think he's a good QB so the law of averages should kick in with a good performance. 

 

 

[OVCChairman]

How can we be looking at cutting Smith already?   4 games into a his tenure and he's now viewed as expendable?  Jay called a terrible game, the offensive line couldn't block to save their lives, and, as plenty of people have been critical of, we have no viable threat outside.  Lets pump the brakes a little bit and see this thing play out.  He had an absolutely TERRIBLE game, yes.  But a lot of things went into that loss... 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

@goskins10 & @OVCChairman

 

We will have to agree to disagree.  Dude was dreadful.  I think saying that he was a little jumpy and had some bad throws is a positive exaggeration.  The few deep balls he threw were trash.  He had happy feet and first read is the dink or dunk.  DHall who raved about the guy six months ago was dumbfounded by his play, particularly how quickly he’s willing to dink it.  Cooley who also has been positive about Alex slaughtered him for his play.

 

Yes, the team itself was bad and probably wasnt going to win no matter what.  It only counts as one game.  But Smith was absolutely dreadful and I’m confused how that’s even debatable.

[OVCChairman]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

@goskins10 & @OVCChairman

 

We will have to agree to disagree.  Dude was dreadful.  I think saying that he was a little jumpy and had some bad throws is a positive exaggeration.  The few deep balls he threw were trash.  He had happy feet and first read is the dink or dunk.  DHall who raved about the guy six months ago was dumbfounded by his play, particularly how quickly he’s willing to dink it.  Cooley who also has been positive about Alex slaughtered him for his play.

 

Yes, the team itself was bad and probably won’t want going to win no matter what.  It only counts as one game.  But Smith was absolutely dreadful and I’m confused how that’s even debatable.

 

 

I wasn't saying Smith was good.. he was bad... really bad.  Just a mention to your final point about us being able to play against an explosive offense.  There's explosive offenses, and then there is what the Saints did monday night.  It was transcendent.  If we match up against the Saints any other week without the culmination of things, I think things go a little differently.. Alex can't play like that, he's gotta be better.  Flat out... period.  There was almost nothing to talk about as a positive regarding his play... i'm not disagreeing.