Let's All Get Behind Alex Smith! Or Not!! (M.E.T.) NO kirk talk---that goes in ATN forum

[DJHJR86]

28 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

At most a few have said they feel he is a slight upgrade over Kirk. The very large majority has said he is about the same with one major detractor being his age. So that's a false narrative. 

 

 

 

 

 

 I could go on but I don't want to make a huge post.  I know that attention spans are getting shorter due to the advances of technology, but it seems like there are those who willingly forget all summer long about the posts (in this very thread) about how much better Smith was than Cousins.  It's not a false narrative at all.  

[DJHJR86]

52 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

And saying he has not been good in the games we won is also completely false. In fact through 3 games, Alex had almost the exact same numbers - including Ws as Kirk did through 3 games last year. 

 

He hasn't thrown a touchdown pass in the second half all year.  4 for 12 in the second half against the Cardinals.  5 for 9 against the Packers.  He had a total of 12 completions against the Packers.  He was not good in those games, because he didn't need to be.  That was the point.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I wasn't saying Smith was good.. he was bad... really bad.  Just a mention to your final point about us being able to play against an explosive offense.  There's explosive offenses, and then there is what the Saints did monday night.  It was transcendent.  If we match up against the Saints any other week without the culmination of things, I think things go a little differently.. Alex can't play like that, he's gotta be better.  Flat out... period.  There was almost nothing to talk about as a positive regarding his play... i'm not disagreeing.  

 

I get what you’re saying but I think the only way this team has a chance against an explosive offense is to counter with a heavy run game and sound D.  Alex just isn’t the dude who’s going to let it rip.

[JoggingGod]

Did anyone here honestly believe he was an upgrade over Kirk? He’s a career average QB who won’t win you games.

[DJHJR86]

41 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

Putting it on Alex and claiming he had a game like John Beck so therefore he is that bad a QB overall (as the other poster did) is a false narrative. 

 

John Beck in 2011 against the 49ers: 30 for 47, 63.83% completion, 254 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 76 QBR, 4.87 AY/A, 2 sacks, 0 fumbles

Alex Smith in 2018 against the Saints: 23 for 39, 58.97% completion, 275 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 69.9 QBR, 5.9 AY/A, 3 sacks, 1 fumble

[SBboundbaby]

4 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

Did anyone here honestly believe he was an upgrade over Kirk? He’s a career average QB who won’t win you games.

 

 

 

not me. 

[DJHJR86]

6 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

Did anyone here honestly believe he was an upgrade over Kirk? He’s a career average QB who won’t win you games.

 

He won't lose them either.  Which tricks people into thinking he's an above average player.  Remember how upset people were that he didn't even crack the top 100 players list?  Maybe the players actually do know more than us couch gazers.

[JoggingGod]

2 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

He won't lose them either.  Which tricks people into thinking he's an above average player.  Remember how upset people were that he didn't even crack the top 100 players list?  Maybe the players actually do know more than us couch gazers.

Actually he will lose you games. Look at his second half vs Tennessee.

[Skinsinparadise]

I think the Beck analogy probably happened via Finlay, he's the one who said it on air, saying that its one of the worst performances he's ever seen by a QB, reminded him of Beck.  Keim is usually reserved in his criticism, really hammered that performance saying it was worse if you were there, missed a lot of open guys.  He tweeted about it too about how when they rewatch that game they will feel worse because of missed opportunities.  Cooley was killing the performance on the broadcast, too. At one point saying the performance was worthy of benching for Colt at the game.

 

Yeah the rest of the team stunk too, O line included.  But hopefully that's blip on the radar.  Bad game from Alex. But I don't think a career defining-season defining one.  Happens to QBs.  It was just one of those days.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Folks have definitely backed off the “clear upgrade” talk as we got closer to real bullets flying up to now.  But all spring and summer folks were talking about all these areas where he was an upgrade but were afraid to Go all-in and actually say he’s one of the best QBs in the league.  Which was always perplexing to me because if a guy turns it over less, is more accurate, more elusive and lethal with his legs, more cerebral and a better leader than Kirk....how is he not one of the best in the league?

[goskins10]

14 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

 

 

 I could go on but I don't want to make a huge post.  I know that attention spans are getting shorter due to the advances of technology, but it seems like there are those who willingly forget all summer long about the posts (in this very thread) about how much better Smith was than Cousins.  It's not a false narrative at all.  

 

First you can drop the snarly comments. Non-value added.

 

The people you quoted are mostly talking heads who are lent to hyperbole to get clicks. Bruce just made a trade to save his job. What do you expect him to say. And only one person said significant upgrade.

 

I am and was a huge fan of Cousins so you are barking up a very wrong tree there. I was as critical as anyone of the team letting Kirk go. But let's not just pile on Alex when there is a bad game. The characterizations were exaggerations. 

 

 

[OVCChairman]

5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

I get what you’re saying but I think the only way this team has a chance against an explosive offense is to counter with a heavy run game and sound D.  Alex just isn’t the dude who’s going to let it rip.

 

 

I agree... and we STARTED the game that way.  6-3 at then end of the 1st quarter,  then the wheels fell off in every facet... Smith included... but I'd bet that game looks very similar regardless of who the Saints were playing.  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

12 hours ago, Tsailand said:

 

Colt's stats in spot duty here: 98/139 (70.5%), 1185 yards, 5 TDs, 3 ints, 18 sacks (!) for minus-130 yards.

 

It is not great, but in retrospect it would have been better to do one season of Colt while we build up the O-line and WRs.

 

 

Again, it's 4 games...

 

So, yes, if this trend continues where we ONLY win when we get a strong defensive effort and a great running attack and Alex simply oversees the passing game, then we can say that. However, if over the last 12 games he is a major factor in a couple games I would have a different opinion. Keep in mind, even last year with Cousins, many of our wins came in games where he made some nice throws, but we ultimately won on the strength of our team and defense (Oakland, LA, Seattle, New York). 

 

To me though, and this isn't Alex's fault, it matters how many we win. If he's the difference between going 5-11 and 7-9, then it was pointless to pay him. If he's the difference between 7-9 and 10-6, it's worth it (to me). 

[goskins10]

14 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

He hasn't thrown a touchdown pass in the second half all year.  4 for 12 in the second half against the Cardinals.  5 for 9 against the Packers.  He had a total of 12 completions against the Packers.  He was not good in those games, because he didn't need to be.  That was the point.  

 

He created a huge lead to start the game and didn't give the game away with overly aggressive play. He did what he had to do. He was very good on both those games. Agian, his numbers for the first 3 games were exactly the same as Kirk's through 3 games - including Ws. So to have such low numbers in the second half he had to be pretty damn good the first half. 

 

 

[DJHJR86]

2 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

First you can drop the snarly comments. Non-value added.

 

The people you quoted are mostly talking heads who are lent to hyperbole to get clicks. Bruce just made a trade to save his job. What do you expect him to say. And only one person said significant upgrade.

 

I am and was a huge fan of Cousins so you are barking up a very wrong tree there. I was as critical as anyone of the team letting Kirk go. But let's not just pile on Alex when there is a bad game. The characterizations were exaggerations. 

 

 

That wasn't directed at you.  It was directed at how many are piling on Smith now when the general mood (I'd say 90% posts) all summer long was how excited they were about the offense with Smith.  I remember because I was one of those cautioning how it wouldn't be better than it was with Kirk.  Bruce Allen, Doug Williams, and Jay Gruden gloated all summer about him and how he was an upgrade.  I didn't exaggerate at all.  Chris Thompson came close to breaking Roy Helu's record of 14 receptions in a game.  John Beck threw those passes to Helu.  Smith threw 13 to Thompson.  It's not an exaggeration to say he's not that good.  The epitome of mediocre.   

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I think the Beck analogy probably happened via Finlay, he's the one who said it on air, saying that its one of the worst performances he's ever seen by a QB, reminded him of Beck.  Keim is usually reserved in his criticism, really hammered that performance saying it was worse if you were there, missed a lot of open guys.  

 

I went the Beck route as well in the gameday thread as it was taking place. It was a very Beck-like performance.

 

Obviously, I don’t think Alex is as bad as John Beck overall.  But Monday he was looking a lot like him.

[goskins10]

12 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

John Beck in 2011 against the 49ers: 30 for 47, 63.83% completion, 254 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 76 QBR, 4.87 AY/A, 2 sacks, 0 fumbles

Alex Smith in 2018 against the Saints: 23 for 39, 58.97% completion, 275 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 69.9 QBR, 5.9 AY/A, 3 sacks, 1 fumble

 

Please tell me you are kidding here. You pull a single game from Beck to compare to Alex to say what? I can pull a single game from any other QB in the NFL that will be both better or worse than a game had by John Beck. Hard to take you serious if this is the direction you want to go. 

[DJHJR86]

1 minute ago, goskins10 said:

 

Please tell me you are kidding here. You pull a single game from Beck to compare to Alex to say what? I can pull a single game from any other QB in the NFL that will be both better or worse than a game had by John Beck. Hard to take you serious if this is the direction you want to go. 

 

I said he had a John Beck-esque game.  I don't even think that's debatable at this point.  

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

I went the Beck route as well in the gameday thread as it was taking place. It was a very Beck-like performance.

 

Obviously, I don’t think Alex is as bad as John Beck overall.  But Monday he was looking a lot like him.

 

Yeah no doubt Alex is better than Beck. Much better.  I still think he's a good QB.  He had a bad day.  I still think it was a bad trade which I know bothers some people on this thread and I still think his performance versus his predecessor is very relevant to the future of this FO.

 

Alex hasn't found his stride yet IMO.  Is he the 2017 dude or the guy he's been for most of his career prior to that?  Right now it looks like 2017 was the aberration.  But the season is young, will see, who knows?  And when I say that its not feint praise -- I truly have no idea of whether he's who some like Reddick say he is where the 2017 version of Alex is the new reality of who he is as a QB.  It doesn't look that way thus far.  But its perfectly reasonable IMO to think it takes time for a new QB on a new team to take time to find his stride -- chemistry with coaches, players, etc.  So i am still open on Alex.  

[goskins10]

8 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

I said he had a John Beck-esque game.  I don't even think that's debatable at this point.  

 

I can dig up stat lines from virtually every other QB in the NFL that are similar. That is not debatable either. The difference is the implication is that Alex Smith is no better than John Beck because he had a similar performance. That is just not true. Lumping him in with John Beck who had zero success in the NFL with a guy like Alex is honestly kind of ridiculous. 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah no doubt Alex is better than Beck. Much better.  I still think he's a good QB.  He had a bad day.  I still think it was a bad trade which I know bothers some people on this thread and I still think his performance versus his predecessor is very relevant to the future of this FO.

 

Alex hasn't found his stride yet IMO.  Is he the 2017 dude or the guy he's been for most of his career prior to that?  Right now it looks like 2017 was the aberration.  But the season is young, will see, who knows?  And when I say that its not feint praise -- I truly have no idea of whether he's who some like Reddick say he is where the 2017 version of Alex is the new reality of who he is as a QB.  It doesn't look that way thus far.  But its perfectly reasonable IMO to think it takes time for a new QB on a new team to take time to find his stride -- chemistry with coaches, players, etc.  So i am still open on Alex.  

I agree with pretty much all that.  I’ve got to imagine he’s going to be better than hes been as he gets more comfortable with the personnel.  But the signs are there that it needs to happen soon.  Hands on heads and frustration by anyone catching or hoping to catch passes.  Guys have been open and he’s not seeing it.  We also must run the ball to buy him some time because he simply doesn’t release it fast enough, which is a big reason why the Oline looks worse than they are.

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

45 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

John Beck in 2011 against the 49ers: 30 for 47, 63.83% completion, 254 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 76 QBR, 4.87 AY/A, 2 sacks, 0 fumbles

Alex Smith in 2018 against the Saints: 23 for 39, 58.97% completion, 275 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 69.9 QBR, 5.9 AY/A, 3 sacks, 1 fumble

I know youre not saying Alex Smith = John Beck. Couple weeks ago Tom Brady went 14-26, 133 yds, 53%, 1-1 w a QBR of 38.1. 

 

Every QB will have John Beck-esque games that can pulled and paraded around.

 

Alex Smith should be a good QB for what Jay wants. Jay's system is about taking what the D is giving them and taking calculated shots down field.

When I say "good", I think Alex is in the 15-20 range for QB rankings.

 

Keim brought up a good point - Crowder and Reed missed significant time in the Pre Season. AP was a late addition. 4 games = not nearly enough to draw long term conclusions. Kirk Cousins > Alex Smith. All day every day. I dont think that is up for debate, just me personally.

 

Im not trying to defend Alex Smith but its very early, everyone sucked in the Saints game and I think Alex and Jay will be able to work together to get a decent move the chains offense going. Not top 10 or like Kirk, but a competent offense.

 

edit ---

 

I wouldnt give much weight to coach and staff praising and give a positive spin when we added Alex Smith. Thats what they do. Kirk left, Alex came in. Of course they are going to say they are excited to work with Alex and the opportunities he brings.

 

Most fans thought Kirk > Alex but realized Kirk was not a Skin anymore and Alex is and its okay to be positive re what Alex might bring. At least thats how I thought then and how I feel now. Of course I wanted Kirk to be signed to a LTD, but that didnt happen ... and bringing it up after anytime Alex has a bad game ... doesnt prove any hindsight or "i was right" points imo.

[DJHJR86]

11 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I can dig up stat lines from virtually every other QB in the NFL that are similar. That is not debatable either. The difference is the implication is that Alex Smith is no better than John Beck because he had a similar performance. That is just not true. Lumping him in with John Beck who had zero success in the NFL with a guy like Alex is honestly kind of ridiculous. 

 

 

 

I never said he was as bad as Beck.  Clearly, he's not.  I said he had a John Beck like game.  That's actually his 2nd Beck like game on the year thus far.  

[Spaceman Spiff]

11 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I can dig up stat lines from virtually every other QB in the NFL that are similar. That is not debatable either. The difference is the implication is that Alex Smith is no better than John Beck because he had a similar performance. That is just not true. Lumping him in with John Beck who had zero success in the NFL with a guy like Alex is honestly kind of ridiculous. 

 

 

 

No one is saying their careers are similar.  

 

It was a John Beck-esque performance.  One game, one John Beck-esque performance.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, Why am I Mr. Pink? said:

I know youre not saying Alex Smith = John Beck. Couple weeks ago Tom Brady went 14-26, 133 yds, 53%, 1-1 w a QBR of 38.1. 

 

Every QB will have John Beck-esque games that can pulled and paraded around.

The overall point is true that all QBs have bad games. But the reason why his game was Beck-like is because he’s already a guy with a reputation for being overly conservative, who was overly conservative and laughably bad in spots, against a team where that was never going to cut it to begin with.