The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[Skinsinparadise]

27 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

 

I thought that I explained it satisfactorily yet you still don't understand how a buffoon like Dan Snyder can influence everything going on with the team while not actually making every decision.

I don't understand it?  Yet, I've made a variation of the same point a gazillion times.  You told me to reread your posts.  Likewise, go reread my posts and tell me where I am lost on Dan influences it all and it's all on him?  I've probably put more content on the board nailing Dan than anyone here.  I plenty get that Dan is a disaster.  And of course the owner controls the culture, the hires, all of it.  It's all on him.  I've made the point a zillion times including this morning.   

 

As for him influencing the decisions even when he's not making them.  I agree with that, too.  So if your point is Dan isn't making up most of the draft board and FA board but his style pervades the decision making -- yeah I agree with that. That's part of the culture. 

 

 I don't think though this pervades heavily on the draft though with the exception of the first round.  So if you are saying Bruce knows to go get a QB because Dan is pushing it.  You bet.  I've helped lead the dance here that Dan pushed Haskins.  I 100% believe it.  Conversely, I don't think he had influence on most of the other draft picks.   That's where I get into the some versus all the time stuff.

 

So my point specifically is most of the personnel decisions aren't made from Dan from the context of he decides what players that he wants and they work his shopping list.  But sometimes, yes.   But as for the win now stuff and all the other crap that pervades the organization, no doubt it effects decision making    

 

27 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

He totally controls his puppet who has full control yet when the team never wins anything he never gets fired. Is it not obvious why that is?

 

 

This is really where we disagree but just to an extent and we've debated this before.  I got no doubt that Bruce sometimes does everything you mention.  But yeah sorry I do believe the narrative from just about everyone who covers the team expressed that they've heard from their sources at the FO which is that Bruce has some autonomy and has added his own stamp of dysfunction to the crap show.  Bruce had a reputation before he got here.  And surprise, surprise some of the changes in how Dan has done business in the past versus now just happens to center on somethings consistent with how Bruce rolled before he got here.  I don't think that's a wild coincidence.

 

I have a different version of the same point though.  My thought is a wily politician whose expertise is office politics is bound to be the survivor in a culture set by Dan.    I don't think Dan created Bruce.  I think Bruce was his own creation and happened to be the perfect fit for Dan's culture for all the wrong reasons. 

 

 

27 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

So in response to working for a nut Job like Dan Snyder everybody spends most of their time in self preservation mode. Bruce Allen is the most obvious. He's put into position of being best buddies with the owner instead of actually working nonstop with the coaches and scouts. He makes trades for Alex Smith because we are close. He keeps Trent Williams around despite the fact that he's giving up significant draft picks for a guy who won't even be around by the time this team is actually competitive for a SB, he's done these things for years, signing Keenum too, even McNabb when we needed to just rebuild. Dan wanted to compete NOW therefore we ended up with a busted up McNabb. =

 

Agree with this.  My only possible disagreement is I think Bruce thinks like Dan.  I don't think Bruce is just going along to get along.  I think they are a match made in football hell. 

 

[88Comrade2000]

Dan only cares about the Big.

In the draft that’s the 1st round pick.  In free agency, it’s the Big names.

 

Dan could care less about the lower round draft picks or the lesser known free agents.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Dan only cares about the Big.

In the draft that’s the 1st round pick.  In free agency, it’s the Big names.

 

Dan could less about the lower round draft picks or the lesser known free agents.

 Yeah that’s how it seems to me and is consistent with most of the stories about him.

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Dan only cares about the Big.

In the draft that’s the 1st round pick.  In free agency, it’s the Big names.

 

Dan could less about the lower round draft picks or the lesser known free agents.

Which is actually kindof a difference between him and Jerry.  From day 1, or at least after Jerry ran Jimmy out of town, Jerry has owned the GM title, and has cared in some way about the entire roster.  

 

Dan "dabbles" in the big name free agents and draft picks.

 

I actually take as proof that Dan stopped meddling in drafts from 2013 until 2019, and also in FAs, because nothing was even remotely splashy. They didn't have a 1st round pick in 2013 or 2014.  If Dan was really in charge, I could have seen him trading future picks to get back into the first.  In 2015, we selected Scherff over Leonard Williams.  That was not a Dan move.  In 2016, Doctson didn't smell like a Dan move.  2017 and 2018, Allen and Payne. Interior defensive lineman.  Not Dan's style. 

 

No, it wasn't until Haskins since Griffin that it appears as though Dan really tinkered with the draft.  

 

As far as FAs are concerned, I doubt very much Dan was jumping up and down on the table demanding we sign Paul Richardson. Yes on Landon Collins, most likely, but there were also extenuating circumstances with his desire to come to DC because of ST21's legacy.  

 

The question really is how involved he was in the whole Kirk/Alex circus.  My guess is that he could have taken or left Kirk.  And from everything we know, it was Allen's brain child to grab Alex.

 

Wouldn't it be ironic if grabbing Alex and having Alex and Dan become friends spells the end for Bruce?

 

----------------------------------------------

I really thought Friday was a real opportunity for Dan to toss Bruce out with the trash. (Reference to trying to bury a story by releasing it when the least amount of people are paying attention.)  Try and minimize the initial story as much as possible.  

 

I'm now wondering about a few things. 

- Is there actually a big splash coming, and Dan is waiting until after the season to make said big splash.  For example, (and I don't see this as likely) but he convinces Urban Meyer to take over football ops and be the HC, promotes Kyle Smith to GM or something.  Well, he can't really do that until after the season because of Callahan being in place, so he just sits on the entire thing so he can announce the big bang at the same time as Bruce's departure, which would clearly pull the attention away from Bruce and onto whoever is new.

 

-Is he really still deciding? I just find that hard to believe.  But I guess it's possible.  Maybe he honestly hasn't made up his mind, and he's going to evaluate after the season is over.  I can't see what he will learn from now until then that he doesn't know already, but I guess it's a possibility.  

 

-It's next week after the Giants game when he pulls the trigger, because it's during the "off week" between Christmas and New Years, and again, people are just not going to be paying as much attention.

 

- Dan is really convincing himself that Bruce and Bill can get this thing turned around, and if they can start winning next year with Haskins, fans will come back.  

 

I dunno.  My entire hypothesis is that Dan is going to go for the biggest splash he can make is based on this fact: Billionaires like money, power and to win.  That's how they became billionaires to begin with.  And I think it's KILLING Dan to lose.  Not lose football games.  Lose money.  And I'm absolutely sure that he is livid that his perception amoungst his 31 peers is probably poop on a stick.   I believe that Dan is super competitive.  I believe he's competitive at life.  But his version of winning isn't the same as ours.  

 

I think he wants to win, but I also think that to him, winning is not just wins/losses on the football field but revenue, stadium rights, and internal power in the NFL.  And he's losing at those things, and I think that it's got to be driving him crazy.

 

Which is why I think he's going to do something bold.  Or at least try too. 

 

He said when he hired Bruce that one of the reasons he hired Bruce was to make him a better owner.  I really think HE thinks he's done what fans have asked him to do for years.  He hired a football guy to run the football operations.  And, for the most part, he delegated to him. 

 

The problem is he picked the wrong guy and trusted him for too long.

 

Which is why I think it might be option 1.  

[Conn]

VoR I think that you may absolutely be right. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

51 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

VoR I think that you may absolutely be right. 

We’ll see.  I hope it’s not option 4. 

 

Its hard to predict what billionaires are thinking because they just operate with such a different set of rules.

 

I actually don’t think Dan is stupid.  I also don’t think he’s evil.

 

I think he made a ton of money doing things his way, he trusts his instincts, and sadly when it comes to running a football organization, his instincts haven’t proven to be right.  

 

I’m hoping he gets it right this time. 

[Riggo#44]

2 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I think he made a ton of money doing things his way, he trusts his instincts, and sadly when it comes to running a football organization, his instincts haven’t proven to be right.  

This is what makes him stupid. 20 years and nothing to show for it. A reasonable, intelligent person would do something different...

[Conn]

13 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

This is what makes him stupid. 20 years and nothing to show for it. A reasonable, intelligent person would do something different...

 

Most extremely successful people fall into one or multiple of these three categories:

 

1. Born too rich to fail, or lucky enough to know the right people via nepotism. 

2. Good enough to do it all themselves.

3. Excellent at recognizing talent and delegating.

 

Because he essentially lucked into a fortune and then invested it into an enterprise too safe to squander (an NFL franchise), we happen to have the unfortunate displeasure of being fans of a team owned by a (technically) successful person who fits none of the above three categories (only two of those categories being desirable, but you get what I'm saying). He has all the worst qualities of a career middle-management schemer who never would have succeeded in another situation. Really none of the positive traits that most actual successful, self-made people have. 

[hail2skins]

5 hours ago, Hooper said:

What a dumpster fire. Unbelievable that when it comes to facilities and staff, the Redskins are a step down for most players on the roster compared to major college problems. People always Snyder cares and will do whatever it takes. LOL. 

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28334892/from-miami-dolphins-cincinnati-bengals-embarking-nfl-tour-sadness

But...….I was told by people in the know on this board that Dan was the best owner in the league, because "he provides."

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 minutes ago, hail2skins said:

But...….I was told by people in the know on this board that Dan was the best owner in the league, because "he provides."

Who?

 

ive been here for more than 10 years and I can’t remember a positive post about Dan.

[Conn]

6 minutes ago, hail2skins said:

But...….I was told by people in the know on this board that Dan was the best owner in the league, because "he provides."

 

When were you told this, 2005? It's almost 2020. Maybe time to let it go.

[Voice_of_Reason]

23 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Because he essentially lucked into a fortune and then invested it into an enterprise too safe to squander (an NFL franchise),

See, I don’t think he lucked into a fortune.  He found something people wanted and essentially made a bunch of extremely shrewd acquisitions and grew his business inorganically.  That actually takes a lot of skill. And a lot of people who try it fail rather spectacularly. 

 

It just doesn't take the skills necessary to run a football team. And he’s got none of those skills. 

 

But i I still think he’s massively competitive.  He just has nothing in his background to fall back on. So he’s kindof lost. 

[hail2skins]

1 minute ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

When were you told this, 2005? It's almost 2020. Maybe time to let it go.

LOL probably within the last 10 years at least. There was a thread title (Why Dan Snyder is the best owner in the NFL) that said just that.  From what I understand, it was Shanahan who upgraded at least some stuff (think the food services and weight room) at Ashburn...…..think I read an article recently that Kyle was the driving force behind that. But yeah, the ESPN article makes it seems like things are still pretty ratty out there. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

When were you told this, 2005? It's almost 2020. Maybe time to let it go.

In 2005 people were roasting Dan for getting in Gibbs’ way.

 

Literally since the spending spree in 2000 and charging for training camp that year, not a single positive thing has been said or written about Dan Snyder 

[hail2skins]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

In 2005 people were roasting Dan for getting in Gibbs’ way.

 

Literally since the spending spree in 2000 and charging for training camp that year, not a single positive thing has been said or written about Dan Snyder 

Ha ha VoR…….you know for a while we had a group of folks here who were still very much Snyder apologists.

 

Either life's priorities have made them moved on, or they realized that there is no longer a good argument to be made to defend the incompetence of this organization...….probably a combination of both. 

[Conn]

24 minutes ago, hail2skins said:

LOL probably within the last 10 years at least. There was a thread title (Why Dan Snyder is the best owner in the NFL) that said just that.  From what I understand, it was Shanahan who upgraded at least some stuff (think the food services and weight room) at Ashburn...…..think I read an article recently that Kyle was the driving force behind that. But yeah, the ESPN article makes it seems like things are still pretty ratty out there. 

 

Here's some search results for you. 

 

2002: Daniel Snyder fan?

 

2003: IM sick and tired of the snyder bashing!

 

2009: Snyder is a good owner.

 

So...I'll give you that there is a thread from almost within the last decade, albeit everyone in there pretty much shut it down...but come on. When this talk existed even a little bit (and was still mostly shouted down even when this site drank the Koolaid a TON more than now) it was almost two decades ago. The world was different, sports fans were different, and because of those two things combined we as a fanbase had WAY less information about the team and how it was being ran and what successful franchises do....compared to now anyways. And even still it was mostly made fun of and disagreed with. 

 

The majority of the kind of blind homer talk about Snyder you're gleefully denouncing in basically 2020 happened in the early 2000's....there were kids born after these threads were made who can now go to war and legally pork other adults. 

 

I think it's time to let these old talking points (that were already bad at the time) go for your own health lol.

[hail2skins]

Not sure where to put this, but just saw this WaPo article about a proposed lease extension of the RFK site to DC was not included in the latest federal spending bill. This at least delays any progress on getting a stadium built at the site (RFK isn't due to be razed until 2021 anyway).

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/redskins-bid-for-rfk-stadium-land-dealt-blow-in-last-weeks-federal-spending-bill/2019/12/21/8cc21c02-242d-11ea-86f3-3b5019d451db_story.html

[Xameil]

5 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

Here's some search results for you. 

 

2002: Daniel Snyder fan?

 

2003: IM sick and tired of the snyder bashing!

 

2009: Snyder is a good owner.

 

S

Technically, I believe that is 10 years and 1 month...soooo it's just outside the last decade....

 

Can ya find anything more recent to support your argument? 

[markmills67]

Bruce Allen you are an absolute ******* Disgrace as a GM, get the **** out of our Redskins organisation. 

 

HTTR 

[SkinsFTW]

Dan Snyder: All he wants to do is win. He just mistakenly hired the wrong guy, once again.

 

1000s of those posts around here.

 

 

[Burgold]

Big article in the Washington Post Sports' section about how an RFK deal fell through and that the Redskins are having difficulty getting either Congress or the DC Council on board. Since this was the one big reason why people said Bruce is still here... it seems he doesn't even have that going for him. HIs influence disappeared probably with the Macaca controversy.

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, SkinsFTW said:

Dan Snyder: All he wants to do is win. He just mistakenly hired the wrong guy, once again.

 

1000s of those posts around here.

 

 

 

1000s? Are you talking over the last 10 yrs or recently? Recently this is just not true, not even close. There are a few holdouts. But the large majority - like 99%+ of those on this board or more are not making those statements. 

 

This is really a societal problem we have - someone says something once then we hear people say - See it's all over the place! Or one person that is associated with a specific group says something and the entire group is chastised. This guilt by association has reach a fever pitch. 

 

So please, do not propagate it here. There not "1000s" of those posts around here unless you want to go back 10+ yrs. At tat time there was 10 less yrs of dans ignorance to have seen. And I have not seen anyone say that Dan is great owner in years. No one is drinking that kool-aid. 

 

Let's see if gets out of his own way and hires someone competent. I doubt it but it's we have to hope for. 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, Burgold said:

Big article in the Washington Post Sports' section about how an RFK deal fell through and that the Redskins are having difficulty getting either Congress or the DC Council on board. Since this was the one big reason why people said Bruce is still here... it seems he doesn't even have that going for him. HIs influence disappeared probably with the Macaca controversy.

 

I got mixed feelings about the stadium.  Selfishly as a fan, love to see a spanking new stadium.  But if some observers are correct, the only shot for Dan to ever sell the team might lie in the stadium.  

 

It wasn't hard for me to glean from my one conversation with Lafemina a year ago that they believe that they have no shot to ultimately save themselves with fans unless they get a new stadium.  It wouldn't shock me if Bruce is selling to Dan, hey fans don't hate me or you, they hate the stadium experience and the losing.  Don't worry the losing will stop.  And the new stadium is coming...

 

I've mentioned this before.  I am not an expert on stadiums.  But I've done a little work on it and I am friends with two people who have worked things on that count in South Florida.  So I know a little about it.  And one of those people has paid some attention to the Redskins on that front.  They've concurred with the WP's take which is Bruce-Dan have embarked on this in an incompetent way.

 

Reading that article they are relying on Bowser to work Congress.  And I've read/heard on podcasts before Bruce is working the Redskins angle as a one man band.  Adding to Dan-Bruce's cheapness it looks like they have eschewed hiring a single lobbyist let alone a team of them which the Dolphins-Marlins did.

 

In South Florida they hired a team of lobbyists and a political grassroots organizations to garner support.  It was all hands on deck and it wasn't easy.  I gather either Dan is too cheap to do the same.  Or Bruce understands how to manipulate the process at Redskins Park by putting it all on his plate to ensure that Dan depends on him.  Either way, at least based on appearances the stadium quest is run as incompetently as the team is.  Part of me doesn't like it but the other part of me thinks if it ends up Dan's undoing -- it's the one hope.  The way Bruce operates (Dan, too) might be their undoing on this front -- and there would be some Shakespearian poetry to that. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/redskins-bid-for-rfk-stadium-land-dealt-blow-in-last-weeks-federal-spending-bill/2019/12/21/8cc21c02-242d-11ea-86f3-3b5019d451db_story.html

 

...For the second time in the past year, an effort on Capitol Hill to get the former RFK Stadium land in the hands of D.C. government, an essential first step toward potentially building a new Washington Redskins stadium there, has failed.

This, in turn, leaves the Redskins with no clear path for returning to the District by 2027, when the team’s legal obligation to play at Landover’s FedEx Field expires.

 

The attempted measure was a long-term lease extension to the District that would have allowed for development of the 190-acre federal parcel of land along the Anacostia River. But it was ultimately omitted from the massive federal spending bill that was approved last week.

 

...Because it probably was the final “must-pass” bill that Congress will consider for months — and perhaps until late 2020 — the Redskins will have limited opportunities to get access to the land through such channels.

Another major sticking point, according to one person with knowledge of recent deliberations, is Snyder himself. Many oppose signing off on any measure that would give the Redskins owner, whose net worth is estimated by Forbes magazine at $2.6 billion, access to public funds or assets.

[Burgold]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It wasn't hard for me to glean from my one conversation with Lafemina a year ago that they believe that they have no shot to ultimately save themselves with fans unless they get a new stadium.  It wouldn't shock me if Bruce is selling to Dan, hey fans don't hate me, they hate the stadium experience and the losing.

 

This is a really dumb argument (not the one you are making, but the one the Redskins are deluding themselves into if this is true). Do you realize how small the percentage of Redskins fans or potential Redskins fans who ever go to a live game is? Do you realize how popular the Redskins were when they played in RFK even when RFK was already a dump in the 1980's?

 

Heck, I remember being excited about the bouncing stadium rows when I went to some games in the glory years, but there was always this little voice in the back of my head that wondered if it was all about to give and we would find ourselves falling to our doom.

 

It's nice to have a nice stadium and a good stadium can definitely be a revenue producer, but I don't think it nudges the needle in terms of fandom.

[Skinsinparadise]

36 minutes ago, Burgold said:

This is a really dumb argument (not the one you are making, but the one the Redskins are deluding themselves into if this is true). Do you realize how small the percentage of Redskins fans or potential Redskins fans who ever go to a live game is? Do you realize how popular the Redskins were when they played in RFK even when RFK was already a dump in the 1980's?

 

Heck, I remember being excited about the bouncing stadium rows when I went to some games in the glory years, but there was always this little voice in the back of my head that wondered if it was all about to give and we would find ourselves falling to our doom.

 

It's nice to have a nice stadium and a good stadium can definitely be a revenue producer, but I don't think it nudges the needle in terms of fandom.

 

Agree.  And it's not that Lafemina thought it was a stadium or bust as to Redskins fandom.  It was that he realized it was extremely important to the stadium experience itself which was one of his big tasks there because they can upgrade the stadium experience at Fedex but there is so much you can do with that venue because you are limited by the stadium itself and location.