The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[@DCGoldPants]

30 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

I gotta believe the Browns would still have interest in Trent....just wonder what we could get for him?

 

I gotta believe NFL teams are suspicious of Trent after he and the NFLPA avoided investigating his claims within a few days.

 

Mid-rounder now. I don't see anybody paying him a lot guaranteed. He's a dog incident at his home from his 3rd suspension.

[88Comrade2000]

39 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

I'm optimistically hopefully we can still bag a 2 and 4. 

😄😄

Maybe a 3rd at best.  Hell, I'd just wait for the Skins to cut him. Why waste a pick on old player, nearing the end of his career.

[Est.1974]

4 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

😄😄

Maybe a 3rd at best.  Hell, I'd just wait for the Skins to cut him. Why waste a pick on old player, nearing the end of his career.

 

Well I have been drinking for some time today so I will give you that 

[Skin'emAlive]

1 hour ago, JoggingGod said:

@Skin'emAlive No to Kyle Smith. He’s a Bruce lapdog.

Just because a guy has been employed by Bruce, doesn’t mean he’s a follower.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:

I feel I didn’t articulate this particularly well. In a nutshell, I don’t think Cleveland or Miami are in any position to claim superiority over Washington. Until one of those franchises can sustain even a modicum of success before crashing and burning, I would never claim to look up to how they approach building a franchise. These reasons are not limited to quality of players, but philosophy and FO structure. 
 

 

 

If we are living in the present IMO any team that wins twice the number of games than we did let alone with a real GM in charge can easily claim superiority.  The Dolphins  have a real GM in charge with the same record we do with a zillion draft picks coming up.  You got me if their future is brighter than ours.  But in my book they are both doing it in a better way than the way the Redskins operate.  So lets agree to disagree on this one.   

 

To me @Rufus T Firefly said it well last night -- its not about guaranteeing a plan works.  There are no guarantees.  You can do it the right way and still lose.  It's playing the odds.   And of course that is subjective.  In my subjective view, any team that hires a personnel guy and puts that person in charge who is highly regarded for personnel has a major leg up on this organization on that point alone.   If that same team is winning more games to boot -- I put them above us. 

 

I get your point about identity.  That's a subjective point about whether this team or that team has the right identity.   But if they are winning more I gather they are doing something better?  Gettleman is obsessed with identity.  Building the trenches.  He talks about it nonstop.  It hasn't worked, yet.  But ultimately it might. 

 

2 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:

 

I disagree that we had no plan or philosophy the past 10 years.

 

 

Where did I say that? I actually said the opposite I referred to them using an actual approach.  They clearly have had a plan.  Whether it was a good one is another debate. I talked about them being at a crossroads back at the time when they let Kirk go.  IMO if you are going that route then go cheap at QB and start over.  Instead they traded for Alex Smith.  That is soooo Dan's Redskins. 

 

They rarely will take a step back to take 2 steps forward later. They do it in some spots but it's certainly not an organization philosophy IMO.  They've traded 3 times for a 34 year old QB.  They've not once traded a veteran player (when they had a high market value) for a high pick (first three rounds) heck they didn't even do it with Trent when he had a gun to their head.  They trade high picks for veterans.  They don't trade their veterans for high picks.  That IMO more than anything brings home how they think.  And sure, its based on a plan and a philosophy but not one I like.  They play it in the middle essentially.  They don't go hard one way or go hard the other way.     

 

A sometimes defender of the FO defended this approach once by saying they do the perfect balance -- go young in places yet they add a nice mix of veterans.  Well, I'd bet that's how they sell that in the building.  But to me its a hybrid approach which they actually do not finesse well.   It's OK.  Not great.  Not awful.  Somethings I like, somethings I don't like.  So so.   Again in my subjective opinion. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:

 

Where we have failed as a franchise is allowing Bruce to continue operating As a personal guy in any capacity. Not just because he has been terrible at FA acquisitions, but because his ethos rubs any and all core players or rival GMs the wrong way in contract negotiations. He has gambled too much on injury prone players. And he refuses to adhere the basic building blocks of a successful franchise such as a better qualified medical staff, a genuine PR staff, and transparency and ownership in the face of failures. If the one thing left that has tied him to the franchise is his ability to secure a new stadium deal back in DC, ( which by the way has been Laughable at best) then even that is a colossal failure because it’s far easier to secure a new stadium

 

 

I agree on this.

 

2 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:

 

If Bruce is gone and we build from within ( Kyle Smith), I think we may be on to something great. If Bruce is still here, expect spectacular failure. 

 

 

Agree with this, too if Dan stays out of the way.  I am sort of in between two views I see from time to time - the Dan interferes all the time take and the Dan no longer interferes.   I do think Dan interferes but not all the time.  But him interfering some of the time is plenty to get in the way of this team achieving success especially because his signature place to interfere is QB. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Rdskns2000 said:

😄😄

Maybe a 3rd at best.  Hell, I'd just wait for the Skins to cut him. Why waste a pick on old player, nearing the end of his career.

 

It's sad how they squandered the opportunity.  Hoffman talked about Trent the other day saying maybe a pick or maybe a release.  I hope he was joking about the release.   

 

 

[Skin'emAlive]

I think I’d agree that it’s far better to blow it up and rebuild than to grasp at mediocrity ( Cincinnati under Marvin). Miami has set itself up well. But I think they went too far trading Minkah when they already secured multiple picks out of Tunsil. He’s a gem. It’s too soon to judge their current process though. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, Skin'emAlive said:

I think I’d agree that it’s far better to blow it up and rebuild than to grasp at mediocrity ( Cincinnati under Marvin). Miami has set itself up well. But I think they went too far trading Minkah when they already secured multiple picks out of Tunsil. He’s a gem. It’s too soon to judge their current process though. 

 

I wouldn't have traded Minkah either.  He was a mega draft crush for me at the time of that draft and he's still young. 

 

It's not that I love every version of every rebuilding plan.  Heck if we embarked on a plan like that, I doubt i'd agree with it at every turn.  It doesn't matter though.  I like the guiding philosophy of what the Dolphins are doing.  I am in South Florida so I read a lot about that team.  Their record has been similar to ours in recent years and they decided enough is enough with the we are close narrative and instead are doing it Jimmy Johnson style and hoarding a ton of draft picks.  They hired a GM with a good reputation for personnel.  And they hope that combination does it for them.   

 

You got me if it works.  But the play it medium approach here at best has given some years of mediocrity, some down years, without a single great season.  I get we have elements of cool in the mix.  But we've really had cool in the mix of the mediocrity most of the time.   Gregg Williams' defenses were good.  Clinton Portis.  RG3 in 2012.  Kirk and the offensive weapons in 2015-2016.   Nice start in 2018, etc.   This team has teased with some nice things in the mix.  But if you look at mediocre teams most of them always have nice toys in the toy box, too but they don't have enough of them.   Mediocre teams are rarely mediocre in a straight line.  They have ups and downs.  And if you focus on the ups you feel good.  But the aggregate picture isn't good enough IMO. 

 

I've said on this thread many times, I do think Dan's approach can work but only in one way.  That is, get the QB position right for once.  If Haskins ends up the goods then I think they can get away with the play it medium approach.  Will see. 

[SkinsFTW]

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Agree with this, too if Dan stays out of the way.  I am sort of in between two views I see from time to time - the Dan interferes all the time and the Dan no longer interferes.   I do think Dan interferes but not all the time.  But him interfering some of the time is plenty to get in the way of this team achieving success especially because his signature place to interfere is QB. 

 

Dan does interfere all of the time.

 

Many fans have been mentioning that they want a GM that works well with the Head Coach as a team getting it done together instead of just throwing things out there to see what works (Dan's way), which is what we currently have.

 

The reason we have what we have is because any GM or President or whatever title they want to call it is going to have to spend the majority of his time being best buds with Dan Snyder and pushing for the moronic ideas he proposes instead of directly working with the scouts and head coach every day creating an actual  team vision and culture that they all want.

 

Thats the reason Bruce has maintained his position for a decade of ****. Dan is getting what he needs (a bromance) while everything else in the entire organization is a big pile of 💩

 

Bruce sucks at the job that (we think) he is SUPPOSED to be doing but he's a genius at doing the one job that really matters to continue his employment with the Redskins.

 

For instance, if he had spent all of his time working with his choice of head coach, Gruden, instead of playing putt putt with the Twilight Zone kid that sends everyone to the cornfield, he'd probably have gotten a lot more of the talent that he wanted and needed. He probably would have gotten rid of Haz that first year too.

 

If he hadn't have been likely pressured into agreeing with Doofus Dan about players like Alex Smith, or RG3, or Haskins, or Pryor, or McNabb, or Richardson, or Collins, or who knows who else over the years, he could have actually been working with the coach that he chose and gone after players that they and the scouts agreed on.

 

I was never for hiring Bruce, from the first day I clowned that move for being exactly what it turned out to be, same with Shanahan, same with Gruden, but if these guys aren't ever given the chance to try to make it work their way then the next best and smartest thing to do if they want to keep working for a complete imbecile is to do exactly what Bruce has been doing all of these years and this easily explains why nobody in the league wants anything to do with Bruce anymore.

 

Dan is anything but just kinda sorta disruptive.

[Conn]

@SkinsFTW Unless you've got a source no one else has access to, that's a wild amount of speculation on your part. To pretend to know the dynamic between Snyder and Allen and where exactly our roster decisions come from is just as foolish as saying Snyder doesn't interfere at all. Just as an example, pulling from your post, to think Dan even knew who Paul Richardson was before we had interest in signing him seems ridiculous. Below-average FAs at starter prices and bargain-bin mediocre FAs at below market prices...those are staples of Bruce Allen's history. 

[88Comrade2000]

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It's sad how they squandered the opportunity.  Hoffman talked about Trent the other day saying maybe a pick or maybe a release.  I hope he was joking about the release.   

 

 

I don't think it's a joke.  Trent isn't coming back.

 

Why should any team trade for him, when they know the Skins will have to cut him at some point.

[SkinsFTW]

7 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

@SkinsFTW Unless you've got a source no one else has access to, that's a wild amount of speculation on your part. To pretend to know the dynamic between Snyder and Allen and where exactly our roster decisions come from is just as foolish as saying Snyder doesn't interfere at all. Just as an example, pulling from your post, to think Dan even knew who Paul Richardson was before we had interest in signing him seems ridiculous. Below-average FAs at starter prices and bargain-bin mediocre FAs at below market prices...those are staples of Bruce Allen's history. 

 

 

I'm not saying Richardson specifically but I'm sure that over the past decade he's had his input on plenty of moves. The dynamic between Dan and Bruce isn't a mystery either.

 

The point being that Bruce Allen as the teams main decision maker should have been spending almost all of his time with Gruden, the scouts, Kyle Smith, etc.  all we ever saw or heard about was him and Dan continuing their bromance, him going here and there with Snyder, representing him at meetings etc.

 

 

Bruce is still here despite the team losing 10+ games a year for an entire decade. Only common sense is required to understand that his primary directive isn't winning football games. The Redskins haven't won 11 games in 28 years and hasn't won 10 in 7.

 

Tom Coughlin, a 2 time SB winner, who took 4 teams to Championship Games just got fired after 3 years and going to 1 AFCCG on a team that has never won anything, yet Bruce still sits there in the tower planning future dumpster fires with Doofus Dan.

 

Hilariously, fans still want to believe that it's his fault that the owner of the Redskins has earned his 2nd Master's  degree in Rectal-Craniology.

 

 

[Riggo#44]

Nothing will change in this organization.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

12 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Dan is anything but just kinda sorta disruptive.

 

I'll center on your conclusion  because this is seems to be the heart of our sometimes disagreement.   The irony is we both think Dan is the worst.  But we divert about Bruce's part of the mess.  My take.

 

A.  Dan is the center of the Redskins universe.  He's 100% of the problem.  We agree on that.

B.  Dan sets the culture.  The FO structure.  The employees.  Everything that goes down is Dan's fault.  100% agree on that, too. 

C.  Point C to me is the #1 worst part of Dan's tenure.  

D.  Where we disagree.  Dan doesn't make every FA and draft move and contract move.  He lets Bruce do plenty of it.

E.  Dan does some interfering on personnel moves, especially QB.  But not all.   This isn't what I dislike about Dan the most albeit I do dislike it.  To me B is the top issue. 

 

You seem slightly annoyed with point D. 😀   But sorry I just don't buy your version of it.  At the same time, I find it strange that it even matters.  Because it's just a variation on the same idea.   It's just opinion.  In my view, my take gives zero escape hatch to Dan.  Your point that it isn't that Dan is sorta disruptive - in other words me saying Dan interferes sometimes means he sometimes is a bad owner but not always, etc.  That might be our other slight disagreement.  I don't judge primarily by how much he doesn't or doesn't interfere with personnel.   He's always a bad owner in my book. 

 

I don't like that he does interfere but its not my primary beef with Dan.  My primary beef with Dan is the culture and that's 100% on him.  It's nasty, backwards and slimy and doesn't breed success.  Whether Dan interferes 100% of the time as you purport or closer to 33% or whatever to me is a secondary point to why he's a bad owner, not the main plot.  And to me interfering is enough doesn't matter to what to degree.  Jerry Jones might be a walking example of this.  The dude clearly does interfere (bad) but the culture there seems a lot better albeit far from great.  To me the culture is the larger point. 

 

If Dan really was making EVERY roster move as you like to claim. Then I genuinely think the dude is an evil genius (as opposed to the dummy I think he is) in his own way because it would mean he made a decision at some point to radically change some of his methods of doing business -- going cheap in FA as opposed to splashy, overpaying coaches to underpaying, being over the top with contracts to being overly cheap.  It would mean Dan decided to metamorpihize on that stuff.  And once he decided to make those changes.  He then just looked for a GM with that reputation so he could pull that off and put it on that dude.

 

And to add to Dan's evil genius he convinced people in that actual building that Bruce had power.  All the leaks from the FO that Bruce indeed makes plenty of his own decisions (which is pretty much every leak) were all false.  Heck he even convinced Scot McClouhgan that Bruce was the dude in his way when it was Dan all along at every turn.  Ditto Lafemina.   Kirk's team, too.  Dan would be the ultimate Wizard of Oz.   He duped a lot of people and is still doing it.   Maybe but it takes some serious imagination and if I thought Dan could be that creative, I'd be wondering why can't he channel that into making better decisions with everything else?  

 

And you or I could be as definitive about it as we like but it means nothing because in both of our cases we are guessing.  You aren't in that building.  I am not in that building.  

[skinsmania123]

@Skinsinparadise I am not sure how you can deduce A, B, and C and not factor in all the time that Bruce and Dan spend together hanging out, which seems to be on a regular basis, sometimes on the magical Disney putting green in Bruce's office drinking after hours, and obviously other times, and believe that Dan is simply complicit, and not actively involved in Bruce's decisions on FA's and draft picks.  It makes no sense to me.

 

Everyone knows that Danny is in his booster chair front and center in the situation room on draft day.  Those decisions were not just made in a vacuum without Danny's input, thus we wind up with his pick of Haskins, as one example.  I just don't think you can believe A, B, and C and not deduct D.    

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

40 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

@Skinsinparadise I am not sure how you can deduce A, B, and C and not factor in all the time that Bruce and Dan spend together hanging out, which seems to be on a regular basis, sometimes on the magical Disney putting green in Bruce's office drinking after hours, and obviously other times, and believe that Dan is simply complicit, and not actively involved in Bruce's decisions on FA's and draft picks.  It makes no sense to me.

 

Everyone knows that Danny is in his booster chair front and center in the situation room on draft day.  Those decisions were not just made in a vacuum without Danny's input, thus we wind up with his pick of Haskins, as one example.  I just don't think you can believe A, B, and C and not deduct D.    

 

 

 

I've probably put more content on this board than anyone here that Dan interferes especially at QB.  I am the dude who loves pulling the old quotes about Dan falling in love with Brady Quinn, etc.  I know the M. Kelly story.  Lance Briggs.  McNabb.  Haskins.   On and on. I could recite it rhyme and verse as good as anyone here.  I've read and posted plenty about it.

 

But the idea that Dan is making EVERY call, every draft pick makes as little sense to me as (if I am reading you right) it makes total sense to you that he is.   Based on doing the same research about Dan interfering much of the same stuff also contradicts that Dan does it ALL the time.   Shanny has talked at length about when Dan has and hasn't interfered.  Gibbs, ditto.   Cerrato, ditto.   

 

On a scale of 0-100.  I am at a 0 that Dan makes every FA and draft call.  I don't believe it even a little.   But the idea that he does it at times -- you bet!  I 100% believe that he does and I contributed as much to that argument as anyone here.  

 

The bottom line for me is I don't understand that making the argument that Dan interferes sometimes versus all the time means anything to the criticism.  If Dan sets the culture, makes the hires, and interferes some of the time -- that's not enough to condemn the dude?  That's not so bad?  Maybe a better way for me to phrase it is this way:

 

A.  Dan makes some calls.

B.  Bruce makes some calls.

C. Any call that Bruce makes is on Dan.

D. The culture-FO structure and hires are 100% on Dan

 

I don't get that argument that Dan is absolved from Bruce's calls.  It doesn't matter to me whether Dan dictates Bruce's every call or Bruce actually makes some of the calls.  The fact that Dan makes some of the calls and empowers a buffoon to make some calls is to me a bigger condemnation of Dan -- not a nice pat on the back.   The fact that he has his own dysfunction and empowers others to add their own brand of dysfunction makes Dan to me look even worse -- not better.    And if Dan is making all the draft picks, he's a bit on a roll of late so if that's his thing then he's starting to get really good at it, I think we will be more than OK if Kyle leaves.  But obviously I don't believe that. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

"I left that meeting not feeling like Bruce was in jeopardy to lose his job," Hall said.

Hall played in Washington for about 10 seasons, made the Pro Bowl in 2010 and picked off 23 passes for the Redskins. Despite all the bad surrounding this organization all season, Hall expressed his confidence in them moving forward. Earlier this month, Hall told NBC Sports Washington's JP Finlay that he had interest in joining the team's front office.

"Do I think this team needs to do a lot of things to right the ship? Absolutely," said Hall. "Has Bruce done the best job? Maybe not. But I have all the confidence in the world that the people in that building can get it fixed."

Most Redskins fans would probably scoff at this notion given their team's poor track record over the better part of 20 years. It's hard to not to notice the public's disdain for the Redskins' front office, so when Hall was asked where he felt Allen's mood was at this point in the season. 

"He seemed like a president who was in charge of a team who was 3-11," Hall said. "He was just like, 'Trying to win a game, trying to beat the Giants.'"

[Conn]

DHall has extremely obvious ulterior motives (and I can't blame him for them). But it means nothing he says can be trusted. He's Larry Michael right now. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

On 12/17/2019 at 5:06 PM, KDawg said:

If you’ve hired a dud. Absolutely agree. But if you hire a level headed guy, they see the forest through the trees. A bad example of this, and in favor of your point, is likely Bill O’Brien.

 

a good example of this is Bill Belichick. 
 

As with all things, it depends on who you hire. Any of us could reasonably be against having a GM hire a coach to fit his vision due to our current situation. 
 

Either way, I think the key is that you have to have a guy in charge and a guy fulfilling his vision. In my opinion it’s less relevant of the title and much more important who you hire for the titles.

 

Meh. Like finding a great QB in the 6th round Bill Bellichick is the exception to the rule, most of the time the head coach in charge of personnel has failed.  

[Est.1974]

Could DHall get any further up Bruce's arse at the minute?

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, skinsmania123 said:

@Skinsinparadise I am not sure how you can deduce A, B, and C and not factor in all the time that Bruce and Dan spend together hanging out, which seems to be on a regular basis, sometimes on the magical Disney putting green in Bruce's office drinking after hours, and obviously other times, and believe that Dan is simply complicit, and not actively involved in Bruce's decisions on FA's and draft picks.  It makes no sense to me.

 

Everyone knows that Danny is in his booster chair front and center in the situation room on draft day.  Those decisions were not just made in a vacuum without Danny's input, thus we wind up with his pick of Haskins, as one example.  I just don't think you can believe A, B, and C and not deduct D.    

 

 

 

I'll add one more point to this.

 

As I've documented before, I won an auction where I spent 2 hours with Scot back in 2016.  He flat out told me some of the decisions he's made that they executed.  So how could it have been Dan making the calls at every turn?  Shanny has talked at length about his decisions.  Gibbs to a lesser extent. And they (not Scot) talked about when Dan did chime in.  If it was really Dan all the time then he would have had to play the ultimate Jedi Mind trick on all of them where they only thought they were making the calls.  But yeah Dan was part of the party according to them, but not all the time, not every pick, not every FA signing.   And that's not a defense of Dan.  Most owners don't interfere period.  Interfering sometimes is plenty enough to spoil the broth. 

 

Dan is an absolute mess/disaster but to me interfering and how much he does or doesn't do it isn't the whole book on why he's a disaster.   It's the culture IMO.  It's having a FO that's behind the times.  The facility, equipment, the whole operation.  Everything seems to be 2nd class.  They always seem to be behind the curve and trying to catch up with more forward thinking organizations.  The hires seems to be about cronyism and feeding into group think.  If you don't go along with the group think then you are a pariah and you will get smeared as you leave.  According to some who work there, it's a culture driven by office politics, scapegoating and run by fear.  That stuff IMO is the heart of why Dan stinks as an owner.  Whether he interferes with every transaction or some of them to me is a side point to the bigger culture issue and like I said interfering sometimes is plenty enough to screw up the broth.

 

 I'd take Jerry over Dan because Jerry at least he is transparent and gives off a nice-positive vibe about the organization and for his interfering ways he's empowered some really good front office people.  We like Kyle but their dude Will McClay is the bigger name in NFL circles for what he does.  I don't think it's a coincidence that Dallas has way surpassed us as for team value.  Dallas isn't a model for me either but I am using them as an example because while Jerry is the ultimate interfering guy but in spite of that they do other things much better than Dan does. 

20 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

Could DHall get any further up Bruce's arse at the minute?

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

29 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

DHall has extremely obvious ulterior motives (and I can't blame him for them). But it means nothing he says can be trusted. He's Larry Michael right now. 

 

Like I mentioned here some days back, D. Hall really laid it on thick with a pro Bruce bent on his podcast.  Clearly, he's lobbying for a FO job.  Heck even if Bruce is on his way out with some sort of phony retirement announcement it wouldn't shock me if D. Hall thought hey maybe Bruce would recommend him on his way out. 

[skinsmania123]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I've probably put more content on this board than anyone here that Dan interferes especially at QB.  I am the dude who loves pulling the old quotes about Dan falling in love with Brady Quinn, etc.  I know the M. Kelly story.  Lance Briggs.  McNabb.  Haskins.   On and on. I could recite it rhyme and verse as good as anyone here.  I've read and posted plenty about it.

I am very aware of your contributions to the board and appreciate it more then you will know.  I read most all of your posts and you are spot on IMO regarding the QB position and Danny's meddling.   😀    It has been a disaster.  

Quote

 

But the idea that Dan is making EVERY call, every draft pick makes as little sense to me as (if I am reading you right) it makes total sense to you that he is.   Based on doing the same research about Dan interfering much of the same stuff also contradicts that Dan does it ALL the time.   Shanny has talked at length about when Dan has and hasn't interfered.  Gibbs, ditto.   Cerrato, ditto.   

What I am saying is over the years Danny has had significant input and Bruce has played an active part in making many of his decisions happen, even ones we think Bruce made all on his own.  Maybe it was not as iron clad during the Shanny coaching era.  But you could easily say, Danny and Bruce looked at the lack of success under Shanny, with the exception of 2012, (Danny's choice in RG3 and the do the trade whatever you have to do to get him Bruce), and come to the conclusion that they could do better.  And naturally they still meddled when Shanny was here.   They meddled when SM was the GM.  I am more apt to believe what your saying about Gibbs.   

 

 It occurs to me that with Bruce, Danny found someone who not only commiserated with him, but who propped him up and who supported a great deal of his decisions, which involved not just choosing the most important position on the team, the QB, which we both mentioned, but it would logically follow that he would be involved in other personnel decisions, player acquisitions and the draft as well.  I think he has a lot more input and Bruce does a lot of the front showing.   If you know you have an owner who wants to be actively involved, who needs input and approval well you are going to give it to him aren't you?   And the job security in that tactic is well,  at this point, 10 years and counting.  So yeah the decision that Bruce is making his own decisions without some of Dan's input just does not make sense to me at all.  Things are top down in organizations. You will not last in the lower position for ten years, unless the one at the top supports your decisions and perhaps has you enforce their decisions.    I simply cannot come off of this. it is too damn obvious to me.  These two are aligned.  BUT for different reasons.

Quote

 

On a scale of 0-100.  I am at a 0 that Dan makes every FA and draft call.  I don't believe it even a little.   But the idea that he does it at times -- you bet!  I 100% believe that he does and I contributed as much to that argument as anyone here.  

He is always involved.  Is it  upfront? Not always.   But make no mistake this organization operates a lot from the shadows.  The structure is so weak and lacks boundaries.  This is feeble ego Dan we are talking about.  Of course Bruce goes over every draft decision with him before that final board is in place.   Of course he goes over the FA choices with him.  

 

We are just going to have to disagree on this one.   Maybe, just maybe Dan will finally learn and stop hiring yes men, ass kissing empty suits who will show up in whatever way he needs them to, but I doubt it.  #SellTheTeamDan.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

28 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

I am very aware of your contributions to the board and appreciate it more then you will know.  I read most all of your posts and you are spot on IMO regarding the QB position and Danny's meddling.   😀    It has been a disaster.  

 

 

 

Thanks.  I agree about Dan as to the QB position -- that's clearly his pet position and he has atrocious instincts on it to say the least.

 

28 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

 

What I am saying is over the years Danny has had significant input and Bruce has played an active part in making many of his decisions happen, even ones we think Bruce made all on his own.  Maybe it was not as iron clad during the Shanny coaching era.  But you could easily say, Danny and Bruce looked at the lack of success under Shanny, with the exception of 2012, (Danny's choice in RG3 and the do the trade whatever you have to do to get him Bruce), and come to the conclusion that they could do better.  And naturally they still meddled when Shanny was here.   They meddled when SM was the GM.  I am more apt to believe what your saying about Gibbs.   

 

 

Sure.   I say he does sometimes.  Some say always.  That's the argument.  Dan is giving Santos a list of the FAs he wants.  He's creating Kyle's draft board.  Bruce is just covering it all up for him.  I say that's taking the point way too far.  No doubt, Dan interferes with Kyle's board with a pick or two, and with Santos with a FA or two.  But not on every pick, every thing.  If he was really doing it, I'd actually be somewhat impressed with Dan.  Like I said it would mean that Dan has quietly become quite the draft geek with good instincts about college players. 

 

28 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

So yeah the decision that Bruce is making his own decisions without some of Dan's input just does not make sense to me at all.  Things are top down in organizations. You will not last in the lower position for ten years, unless the one at the top supports your decisions and perhaps has you enforce their decisions.    I simply cannot come off of this. it is too damn obvious to me.  These two are aligned. 

 

It's two different subjects.  I got employees who work for me.  I don't make every decision for them.  Yeah I sign off on them but heck that's what its like for any boss.  I agree the owner always signs off on a decision (that would be the case anywhere).  By that yardstick than every owner would be meddlesome.  So yes Bruce I bet runs by his decisions by Dan like any employee would.  That doesn't discount that it was Bruce's decision making.  Just like if Kyle wants Terry McLaurin in the third round and Dan signs off on it -- that doesn't make it about Dan interfering but signing off on decisions like any boss would.

 

When Scot explained to me for example how he created a draft board and referred to how they stuck to it for the most part -- I believe him.  I don't think Dan walked in and said Scoty boy, thanks for the work but I am submitting my draft board, instead.  Would he perhaps mess with a pick or two, sure.  But the whole thing, no way.   That's my point.

 

28 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

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He is always involved.  Is it  upfront? Not always.   But make no mistake this organization operates a lot from the shadows.  The structure is so weak and lacks boundaries.  This is feeble ego Dan we are talking about.  Of course Bruce goes over every draft decision with him before that final board is in place.   Of course he goes over the FA choices with him.  

 

To me you are conflating two different points.  Talking about how ANY owner with any team signs off on decisions and of course it happens here -- yeah I agree with that.  John Mara signs off on every FA signing and draft pick but he doesn't drive the actual decision of which FA and which player to draft I'd guess with maybe a very rare exception.  Dan actually from what I can tell indeed sometimes goes hey, Landon Collins in FA, I always wanted that dude, make it happen boys.  But I do not get the impression even a little from all the exposes I've read and heard about Dan that its all him with every call like that where he goes to Kyle here are my draft picks and Santos here are my FAs just do it.  But like I said him doing it sometimes is plenty enough to spoil the soup.  

 

As for him operating in the dark, you bet.  That's been part of my point for years about why its one among many reasons why I hate the FO structure.  But saying he's making every call, every move to me sounds a bit crazy to me and it would mean Scot, Shanny and a bunch of others are really good liars and want to defend Dan for some strange reason.    And it would require me to disbelieve many reports I've heard that while weren't flattering to Dan still didn't take it as far as you do with your point. 

 

And the larger point for me is why does it even matter?  It's a first degree felony in my view regardless of whether its your version of events of how much he interferes or mine. And in my view how much Dan interferes or not, isn't even the main plot for why he's a bad owner.  The main plot IMO is the culture as I laid out.

[skinsmania123]

43 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

  He flat out told me some of the decisions he's made that they executed.  So how could it have been Dan making the calls at every turn?  

And I could easily say look what they did to SM when they started to interfere again.   

 

 I find it hard to believe that you cannot acknowledge that since Dan has owned this team and Cerrato and Allen have played GM under him, that the majority of the time,  he has not been actively involved in choices around player acquisitions.  You rattled off all his QB meddling, which is true, and it came out.  But he has been involved in a lot more then we think.  When you are this over involved the majority of the time, you get this type of organization dysfunction and then the discrediting of guys on their way out the door:  Shanny, Scott McCloughan, and I believe, because I posted about it even Jay Gruden.  

43 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Dan is an absolute mess/disaster but to me interfering and how much he does or doesn't do it isn't the whole book on why he's a disaster.   It's the culture IMO.  It's having a FO that's behind the times.  The facility, equipment, the whole operation.  Everything seems to be 2nd class.  They always seem to be behind the curve and trying to catch up with more forward thinking organizations.  The hires seems to be about cronyism and feeding into group think.  If you don't go along with the group think then you are a pariah and you will get smeared as you leave.  According to some who work there, it's a culture driven by office politics, scapegoating and run by fear.  That stuff IMO is the heart of why Dan stinks as an owner.  Whether he interferes with every transaction or some of them to me is a side point to the bigger culture issue and like I said interfering sometimes is plenty enough to screw up the broth.

What do you think creates a culture?  It is either a good one with efficient well defined structures and boundaries with reasonable expectations and time periods for good outcomes or one where the boundaries are permeable, such as sometimes I don't interfere, but most times I do.  This is of course not based upon reasonable expectations, but whim, emotions, etc.  And that is what makes the Skins a ****ty culture iMO. Because it is a top down disaster with Danny sitting on the top of a **** show.

43 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 I'd take Jerry over Dan because Jerry at least he is transparent and gives off a nice-positive vibe about the organization and for his interfering ways he's empowered some really good front office people.  

I agree with this statement. I understand  his son has a lot to do with him staying out of the meddling to a degree. Not sure about that.

43 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: