The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[HardcoreZorn]

5 hours ago, goskins10 said:

I think the reason people want one extreme or the other is that it takes out the gray area. If they have a really successful season (make the POs and get at least 1 win) then no one could argue letting them continue. If they fall flat - say 5-11 or worse, then it's clear changes have to be made. 

 

I agree the most likely outcome is that 7-9 to 9-7 area which leaves it too much gray area - at least for me. It should be **** or get off the pot time for bruce. If jay is a casualty so be it but I would be Ok with seeing how he does with a competent GM. At least one that does not rely on getting FA bargains that are injured and keeping oft injured players, and then bemoaning injuries as why they fall apart. 

 

I completely understand the grey area part. Another middle of the pack finish wouldn’t bring much clarity on how to proceed while a good one or bad one would.

 

The seeing how Jay could do with a competent GM part not so much. In the last 3 drafts we have accumulated the following pieces: 

 

Future Starting QB (Haskins)

Future RBs (Guice and Love)

Starting Slot (Quinn)

Future WR 2/3 (McLaurin)

Future LG (Martin) 

Starting Center (Roullier)

Starting NT (Payne)

Starting DE (J Allen)

Rotational DL (Settle)

Starting Edge (Sweat)

Rotational Edge (Anderson) 

Starting ILB (Shaun Dion Hamilton)

Nickel ILB (Josh Harvery Clemons) 

Future Starting Slot CB (Moreland) 

Starting CB (Fabian Moreau)

Starting FS (Montae Nicholson) 

 

Fully aware there’s some projection with some of these guys and that not all will Boom. But also note I didn’t include a host of other guys such as Sprinkle, Holcomb, Ross P., Stroman, R. Davis, Simms, Christian etc. mostly because I’m less confident those guys stick around long term. But who knows maybe they do succeed and become longer term pieces. The guys I listed above are what I consider the talent pipeline that will either be starters or key pieces moving forward. Again, I’m aware those guys are not all slam dunk contributors or end up proving worthy of their draft slots. Not all are starters either. The point is, our drafts have been good, if not very good, which isn’t just some homeristic opinion. It’s been backed up and corroborated by talking heads and guys who really know football after each of the past 3 drafts. And Haskins/Guice/Allen/Payne/ Sweat are the ones who truly have the chance to be our blues. 

 

Bruce didn’t pick those guys, I am certain of it. What Bruce and Dan have seemingly been able to do, is foster an environment that allows a seemingly really good college scouting personnel team make really good personnel decisions. To act like Jay is a head coach that is dragged down by a FO or GM that is hitting on 1-2 draft picks a year is not reality. There’s talent coming into this building, and at a rapid rate. 2020 is when the real window will open if Haskins is the goods. 

 

Also the FA bargain injury comment is bogus. Who the last 2 years that has gone out with an injury was a bargain bin FA pick up? Richardson is the one guy we signed with a red flag injury history but he wasn’t even bargain bin. I keep seeing this narrative pushed around but not sure where it came from. 

 

 

 

 

 

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

I completely understand the grey area part. Another middle of the pack finish wouldn’t bring much clarity on how to proceed while a good one or bad one would.

 

The seeing how Jay could do with a competent GM part not so much. In the last 3 drafts we have accumulated the following pieces: 

 

Future Starting QB (Haskins)

Future RBs (Guice and Love)

Starting Slot (Quinn)

Future WR 2/3 (McLaurin)

Future LG (Martin) 

Starting Center (Roullier)

Starting NT (Payne)

Starting DE (J Allen)

Rotational DL (Settle)

Starting Edge (Sweat)

Rotational Edge (Anderson) 

Starting ILB (Shaun Dion Hamilton)

Nickel ILB (Josh Harvery Clemons) 

Future Starting Slot CB (Moreland) 

Starting CB (Fabian Moreau)

Starting FS (Montae Nicholson) 

 

Fully aware there’s some projection with some of these guys and that not all will Boom. But also note I didn’t include a host of other guys such as Sprinkle, Holcomb, Ross P., Stroman, R. Davis, Simms, Christian etc. mostly because I’m less confident those guys stick around long term. But who knows maybe they do succeed and become longer term pieces. The guys I listed above are what I consider the talent pipeline that will either be starters or key pieces moving forward. Again, I’m aware those guys are not all slam dunk contributors or end up proving worthy of their draft slots. Not all are starters either. The point is, our drafts have been good, if not very good, which isn’t just some homeristic opinion. It’s been backed up and corroborated by talking heads and guys who really know football after each of the past 3 drafts. And Haskins/Guice/Allen/Payne/ Sweat are the ones who truly have the chance to be our blues. 

 

Bruce didn’t pick those guys, I am certain of it. What Bruce and Dan have seemingly been able to do, is foster an environment that allows a seemingly really good college scouting personnel team make really good personnel decisions. To act like Jay is a head coach that is dragged down by a FO or GM that is hitting on 1-2 draft picks a year is not reality. There’s talent coming into this building, and at a rapid rate. 2020 is when the real window will open if Haskins is the goods. 

 

Also the FA bargain injury comment is bogus. Who the last 2 years that has gone out with an injury was a bargain bin FA pick up? Richardson is the one guy we signed with a red flag injury history but he wasn’t even bargain bin. I keep seeing this narrative pushed around but not sure where it came from. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have said the draft was good - even very good in some ways. But there is more to being a GM than drafting. And you even said yourself it's not Bruce making these picks. He does not get out in front of controversy and head it off or at least take the pressure off Jay as he should. And his FA track record is not great. In terms of the injured, how about the two Dline he signed? The two Macs (McClain and McGee?) both had injury issues. How about Gillette? Richardson was the only real FA he signed last year and he had a history of injury. How about Reuben Foster? Sure, he had a freak accident. But he could not stay on the field before - something many of us brought up as a problem even if the off the field stuff turned out to be nothing. That's off the top of my head without even looking at rosters and the people on IR. So despite the snark of calling it bogus it's 100% accurate. Does that mean he only signs injured FAs? No. But he signs too many of them and to keep positions. Also, FAs include keeping people on the roster that have injury issues. There is a very long list. Then we are surprised that we have so many injuries. 

 

Yes, all teams have injuries. And some have certainly been freak - Alex had zero history of injury and got a bad break (no pun intended). But over all he tends to sign and keep more players with injury histories than other GMs. We will not even go into the felling around the league that he is dishonest other tan to say - OK maybe it's exaggerated him being the worst, But that means he is still pretty low even if it's an exaggeration. 

 

So you can look at narrow facets of his job and yes, he is not horrible. And that's assuming this last draft and some of the other players signed work out. Again, I really liked the last few drafts and have stated so - repeatedly. But as a whole, he has not done a very good job in some key areas. 

 

So again, I would love to see Jay with a competent GM. 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

I mostly agree wit what you stated. The problem is that another middle of the road performance leaves ambiguity. It will depend how they got there. for example if another season like last one happens - a hot start but then injuries at least are blamed for a collapse there could be an argument made to dan that they have the team they just need a few pieces. Or, if they start slow but finish strong say because they put in Haskins and maybe a few other rookies. They have a case they are close and again may get another year as is - meaning bruce keeps his job. The wild card here is fans in the seats. That could trump it all but I will leave that out of this discussion other than saying it is a lurking variable. 

 

I think the reason people want one extreme or the other is that it takes out the gray area. If they have a really successful season (make the POs and get at least 1 win) then no one could argue letting them continue. If they fall flat - say 5-11 or worse, then it's clear changes have to be made. 

 

I agree the most likely outcome is that 7-9 to 9-7 area which leaves it too much gray area - at least for me. It should be **** or get off the pot time for bruce. If jay is a casualty so be it but I would be Ok with seeing how he does with a competent GM. At least one that does not rely on getting FA bargains that are injured and keeping oft injured players, and then bemoaning injuries as why they fall apart. 

 

I agree.  Adding a point to this.   Football outsiders among our number crunchers have said statistically speaking an offense now carries more weight than the defense.  I gather it's because of the new rules over the years that have made it easier for offenses to explode.  Also the passing offense >>>> rushing offense.  Teams that have strong passing offenses tend to beat teams who are stronger in other areas -- everything being equal-statistically speaking.  It's not that there are no exceptions to this but on the aggregate the most important thing to have is a strong passing game. 

 

I think as for Jay they have changed the personnel from 2015-2016 where we've had one of the most explosive passing games in the league to now one of the weakest. And if there is a unit where you go from strong to weak -- the passing game is statistically speaking the worst unit of them all to downgrade.   It's not just one feature of the movie but the main feature.  It's not like we haven't seen teams for example with strong D lines as an example (see the Jets among others) still stink.   

 

I like how the team has rebuilt the D line over the years and add some components to the defense.  But on the aggregate I think at best their roster building has treaded water and their mediocre record in turn is perfectly fitting IMO. They've gotten younger which I like but this still isn't IMO a playoff roster unless Haskins and the young receivers develop.   I recall some people saying years back here it was all about Jay's "system" not the personnel.   Heck I even saw Doug chime in with a similar point years back.  I said then, I don't think Jay has some magic system that transcends talent.   Neither does anyone else IMO.  And I like Jay better than most.  But I am a talent guy above coaching especially when it comes to talent in the passing game specifically.  Coaching matters.  But talent IMO matters more,

 

As for things moving forward, yeah they might finally make it all come together with Haskins and the new young receivers.  Then, they'd indeed have a complete team and then we'd be cooking with oil.   Considering the track record under Dan, we'd be nuts IMO to celebrate that prematurely.  They've gotten those two positions wrong so often -- the QB and WR spot (for Wr purely in the draft) it can make you dizzy.  The misses are so frequent for so long that it's ESPN 30-30 worthy. 

 

Haskins to me will be the watershed move for this franchise.  If they get it wrong then IMO this will continue to be an 8-8 give or take franchise for perpetuity until they finally figure out that position.  It's just very hard to be a consistent winner in the league without a franchise QB save maybe the Ravens and an occasional outlier.  They get Haskins right then it should all come together IMO. 

 

As for Jay unless Haskins is the goods right now, the FO hasn't given him a winning roster iMO.    There is a reason why Vegas, power rankers, draft geeks, football magazines for the most part think this team is one of the worst in the NFL -- that is, on paper this doesn't look like a hot roster.  I do think these guys are overdoing it because IMO it isn't a terrible roster either.  It's so so IMO with some promising parts.   But they are at least right in one regard and that is this isn't a playoff roster in all likelihood unless Haskins becomes a rare hit the ground running rookie QB like Mayfield was in season 1. 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

One more thing about Jay.  As much as Kyle gets touted on this thread, going purely on word of mouth stuff Jay is the runner up talented evaluator over there.   Cooley has talked about it plenty.  Shaffer has mentioned it now multiple times.  Chris Russell said in that building not all agree with Kyle on things but Jay is his allay and vice versa.  A year ago when ESPN highlighted (via different league personnel) guys about different teams drafts -- the Redskins talk on that front was about how Jay is the best evaluator in that building.

 

I said on this thread that some other teams are cited for having more than just one hot shot evaluator in their buildings but multiple ones.  For the Redskins if you had to say at least name wise and hype wise who is the #2 guy on that front that seems to be Jay Gruden.  Every draft we hear about Jay hyping guys that he wanted in the draft, R. Foster, Trey Quinn, etc.

 

If we are going to escape the dungeon for example on poor drafting at the receiver position over the years with an occasional exception and the QB spot -- my money is on Jay being a key part of that.    And conversely I trust Jay when according to some he was upset that they let D. Jax goes years back and apparently not in love with letting Crowder go this year -- heck probably if there is one dude who would say its not all about its his system it would be Jay himself.  Jay's system isn't going to make a WR run 4.3 and have elite ball tracking skills or having one of the best YAC receivers in the league, etc. 

 

https://redskinswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/20/jay-gruden-biggest-advocate-drafting-cole-holcomb/

Eric Shaffer, Senior Vice President of football operations, revealed the bit of background info, per Redskins.com:

“Jay Gruden does the work, he watches the tape. He’ll have strong opinions [on the players]. He was very instruamental in the Redskins drafting [Matt] Ioannidis and had some really strong opinions on guys this year. I think Cole Holcomb out of North Carolina was one of those guys that Jay really stood up for.”

Holcomb, a fifth-round rookie, impressed in workouts ahead of training camp. Call it a good sign, as he might be asked to play a bigger role than originally expected in the wake of the Reuben Foster injury.

Gruden has been adamant since the draft that it is all about coverage ability for linebackers. Holcomb can certainly do that, so it isn’t too surprising to learn he was one of the guys in the draft room pounding the table for him.

[HardcoreZorn]

On 6/20/2019 at 12:44 PM, goskins10 said:

 

I have said the draft was good - even very good in some ways. But there is more to being a GM than drafting. And you even said yourself it's not Bruce making these picks.

The draft is the talent pipeline of a football organization. It’s THE most critical part. I do understand there’s more to being a GM than JUST the draft but listen to any GM and personnel guy speak and they will emphasize how important the draft is to building a sustainable contender. It’s not a 50/50 thing. If you don’t draft well you won’t be good, period. The time to take a swing for the fences and go get a few pieces to put you over the top in FA is after your young homegrown core is established and shows they are close to the promised land. See the Rams and Broncos as examples. Both had a great nucleus in place before shelling out for the big names. It’s easier to buy in as a FA or outside addition when you are walking into a room that already expects to win as Peters, Talib, Suh, Cooks did last year with the Rams as an example.

 

 And to let Jay off the hook so to speak by saying you’d like to see what he does with a competent GM or FO as if he’s held back by complete incompetency is underselling the importance of the draft and how good we’ve been there. Some of the onus must be put on Jay, especially when you hear things like he’s one of the main talent evaluators in that building who is the driving force behind some of these picks. Good on Jay for having a keen eye for talent, he’s clearly a big reason why we’re having successful drafts in the first place. The fact you prop up our drafts and the fact that Jay Gruden has a big influence in the draft room, bigger than Bruce I’m sure, makes the comment even stranger.

 

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He does not get out in front of controversy and head it off or at least take the pressure off Jay as he should. And his FA track record is not great. In terms of the injured, how about the two Dline he signed? The two Macs (McClain and McGee?) both had injury issues. How about Gillette? Richardson was the only real FA he signed last year and he had a history of injury. How about Reuben Foster? Sure, he had a freak accident. But he could not stay on the field before - something many of us brought up as a problem even if the off the field stuff turned out to be nothing. That's off the top of my head without even looking at rosters and the people on IR. So despite the snark of calling it bogus it's 100% accurate. Does that mean he only signs injured FAs? No. But he signs too many of them and to keep positions. Also, FAs include keeping people on the roster that have injury issues. There is a very long list. Then we are surprised that we have so many injuries. 

Won’t address the taking pressure off Jay thing because that’s absurd. The two Macs were terrible signings, but every team has them. And to be fair, McClain was gone in a year, McGee in two, and now we have a couple young beasts that we drafted manning those spots. They clearly weren’t the long term plan at the position, evidenced by their contract values and how quickly they were replaced by homegrown talent. Gallette? Don’t recall him having an injury history with the Saints, we took a shot on a talented pass rusher with off the field issues. It was here that he couldn’t get or stay on the field, but he was never relied on to be a starter anyway. Foster? He wasn’t available due to injury. If he didn’t have the off the field he wouldn’t have ever been cut in the first place. Another case of low risk high reward that unfortunately we will have to wait another year to see if he ever contributes for us. But hardly an example of a penny pinching signing that was only available cause he’s always injured. I brought Richardson up, definitely not a great signing to date but still time. Lavao is another one I’ll give you, but Kouandjo was plan A there anyway.

 

but I mean what about Djax in the first place? Or Swearinger? Or Norman? Or Zach Brown? Adrian Peterson? Are you not excited to watch Landon fly around with the Bama boys? I mean it’s not like we aren’t landing impactful free agents. Why don’t you talk about those? Is FA so incredibly atrocious for us that it wipes out the drafts that you self proclaim to like? And last point on this, you don’t think Jay Gruden was pounding the table for some of those guys above? Wasn’t he the main reason behind signing Foster? If so, how does your comment make any sense whatsoever? 

 

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So you can look at narrow facets of his job and yes, he is not horrible. And that's assuming this last draft and some of the other players signed work out. Again, I really liked the last few drafts and have stated so - repeatedly. But as a whole, he has not done a very good job in some key areas. 

His biggest error to date as THE guy in charge, and no I’m not counting 2012 when Snyder and Shanny were the voices in that building at the time. I’m talking when Jay Gruden came on board and Bruce seemed to wrestle some more power, his biggest mistake was not capitalizing on Kirk Cousins as an asset in the 2016 off season. It really set us back and made us panic a little and make the move for Smith, which set us back even more. Haskins falling really was a godsend.

 

Referring to the draft as a narrow facet highlights the disconnect between our viewpoints. I really prioritize the draft and am being patient to allow these past few drafts that I love to develop into the prime of their careers. THAT is when I’m predicting our window to open. However, I do understand that 20 years of waiting for a winner is unacceptable and frustrating to say the least which makes the patience game much harder to sell to the fans and much more skeptical.

 

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So again, I would love to see Jay with a competent GM. 

 

 

 

 

Id love to see Jay coach a team into December without half his guys in the hospital. And no, not half of our roster are guys who spend year after year after year on the IR ala Galette or even Reed. We were a playoff team last year without getting ravaged by injuries. I’d also like to see Jay get a little more creative and maximize some of this talent. Jay being held back and not being more accountable himself is just something I can’t agree with. Doesn’t mean our FO is the GOAT or that Bruce is infallible. But it also doesn’t mean Jay is some super star propping up a sinking ship. There are coaches that would win right now with the talent in place, I truly believe that. 

[goskins10]

3 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

Edit

 

Id love to see Jay coach a team into December without half his guys in the hospital. And no, not half of our roster are guys who spend year after year after year on the IR ala Galette or even Reed. We were a playoff team last year without getting ravaged by injuries. I’d also like to see Jay get a little more creative and maximize some of this talent. Jay being held back and not being more accountable himself is just something I can’t agree with. Doesn’t mean our FO is the GOAT or that Bruce is infallible. But it also doesn’t mean Jay is some super star propping up a sinking ship. There are coaches that would win right now with the talent in place, I truly believe that. 

 

I have to assume Bruce has pictures of you doing something as the rant you gave was really not much but made up narratives and exaggerations along with a few straw-man statements in an attempt to redirect.  Your exaggerations and attempts to put words in my mouth despite the facts being laid out is actually fairly impressive. They are completely wrong but impressive none the less. 

 

Just one example so it's clear what I am talking about - show me where I said Jay was a super star propping up a sinking ship? I simply said - and this is the incredibly egregious statement that got you wound up - I would like to see him with a competent GM. I do believe Jay is a pretty decent coach that has not been given the tools and the overall support to be successful. Has he gotten some things? Of course. And he has done pretty well with them. Can he truly be successful, SB successful? I really do not know. That's why I want to see him with a talented GM, which is not what we have now. We have a talented politician who at least is starting to listen to the football people - hence the decent drafts, and that's about it. All you have to do is look at any of the more successful franchises and it's painfully clear how overall incompetent Bruce and even more Dan has been. A few decent drafts is not enough for me to give him/them the benefit of any doubt. He is not a very good GM and the results of his 9 yrs here prove that to be accurate. Win and that will change my mind, at least in terms of football. Get to the POs and win a few games. Would love to be able to say - hey looks like while it took some time Bruce and the FO got it together. 

 

The sad part is I even agreed with most of your original comment and you still have to be Bruce's Knight in shining armor at the mere suggestion that he may not be a very good GM. Time to move on. I tried. Time for a beer. 

[HardcoreZorn]

16 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

I have to assume Bruce has pictures of you doing something as the rant you gave was really not much but made up narratives and exaggerations along with a few straw-man statements in an attempt to redirect.  Your exaggerations and attempts to put words in my mouth despite the facts being laid out is actually fairly impressive. They are completely wrong but impressive none the less. 

Rant? Quit being so sensitive. And for the love of god, take Bruce out of the equation and all of my points still stand. The points went flying over your head. One was that Jay is a big part of the soup himself and thus should be held more accountable. The other was that the draft, in my opinion, is far far far more important to be good at than anything else. Again, take Bruce out of the equation completely, cause we already agreed he’s not the one making the picks that we both like and the point still stands. Which is that Jay has talent at his disposal and needs to win. Or someone else will. He knows it and has said as much. So to say you wish you could see Jay with a competent GM says to me you don’t think he’s a big part of the soup when it comes to banging the table for certain guys and getting his way. That he’s sapped by a helpless team above him not giving him what he needs to be successful. And while not perfect, when you draft consistently well (a rarity FWIW) you should be able to leverage that into a consistent playoff team even with some misses here and there on the pro side. Which we were witnessing a playoff team before Alex and 75% of the team went down. While the Skins were 6-3 with a two game division lead, you and everyone else were too distracted complaining about Alex and the way we were winning games and bemoaning that we no longer had a QB like Cousins who could pretty up a stat sheet and throw for a bunch of empty yards. Nothing made me happier than to see Cousins crumble the last half of thr year and for people to finally see what he really is. 

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Just one example so it's clear what I am talking about - show me where I said Jay was a super star propping up a sinking ship? I simply said - and this is the incredibly egregious statement that got you wound up - I would like to see him with a competent GM. I do believe Jay is a pretty decent coach that has not been given the tools and the overall support to be successful. Has he gotten some things? Of course. And he has done pretty well with them. Can he truly be successful, SB successful? I really do not know. That's why I want to see him with a talented GM, which is not what we have now. We have a talented politician who at least is starting to listen to the football people - hence the decent drafts, and that's about it. All you have to do is look at any of the more successful franchises and it's painfully clear how overall incompetent Bruce and even more Dan has been. A few decent drafts is not enough for me to give him/them the benefit of any doubt. He is not a very good GM and the results of his 9 yrs here prove that to be accurate. Win and that will change my mind, at least in terms of football. Get to the POs and win a few games. Would love to be able to say - hey looks like while it took some time Bruce and the FO got it together. 

Show me where i said you said that? It was a set up for my next sentence, which was pointing out that I believe there are enough resources being provided from a roster building standpoint that a coach could succeed here. It was an exaggeration to show a point, which you again missed. Hell, even Jay was on his way to 10 wins last year before Alex went down. You really going to argue otherwise? 

 

Its been too long, and there have been too many bumps in the road. But like Louis Riddick, I actually believe Dan’s a changed man. And I truly believe the last 3 drafts will prove to be the backbone of a really good football team. One that can go to the PO’s and win a few games. That’s what I was alluding to in my previous post that you conveniently skipped over since you got so wrapped around the axle. Patience is a tough and skeptical sell to a fanbase thats endured 20 plus years of losing and shenanigans. But I’m willing to do it, because finally we appear to consistently nail drafts and are accumulating a plethora of  young homegrown talent. Never in my entire life have I seen a 5th rounder come in like Settle this past year against Dallas and disrupt the game like that. That’s VALUE. I’m looking forward to seeing those guys like Settle from the past few drafts grow into their primes, because that is when we will all get what we want which is a consistent winner. That is when the window will open, if Haskins becomes even a top 12-20 guy. I like his chances based off of what I’ve read about him so far and his obvious physical talent with Jay and all of the other QBs in the building in his ear but let’s see. Just got his jersey for my birthday from my GF so hoping he’s the dude after all these years of waiting and the teasers in between. 

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The sad part is I even agreed with most of your original comment and you still have to be Bruce's Knight in shining armor at the mere suggestion that he may not be a very good GM. Time to move on. I tried. Time for a beer. 

 The sad part is how badly you missed my points in the posts following. The even sadder part is not only do you miss them but you then feel the need to say things like Bruce’s knight in shining armor and Bruce has pictures of me. No need to be a jerk.

 

Kyle Smith Doug Williams Eric Schaefer and Jay Gruden himself are the ones involved in acquiring the personnel on this football team. Again remove Bruce altogether from the conversation and I’ll say the same thing. Jay is being given talent, from the guys above. So agree to disagree that Jay is held back by incompetence at the GM position. 

 

Thanks for reminding why not to engage in conversations in here. I realize it’s unpopular being the guy to actually like what we’re doing, but my god try and understand the conversation before latching onto the theory that I’m rushing to Bruce’s defense. Bruce Allen could get fired today and I’d come back and say all of the exact same things tomorrow. But you’re right, time for a beer. That’s enough stress for a Saturday in sunny San Diego. Cheers.

[goskins10]

20 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

Rant? Quit being so sensitive. And for the love of god, take Bruce out of the equation and all of my points still stand.

 

Edit

 

So let me get this straight - you get all wound up because someone dares say Bruce is not a very good GM - the very last statement of a much longer response mostly agreeing with you. You respond with anecdotal examples to defend that position with a few straw-men for good measure. Then I call you on it by pointing out you left off a great number of injured players he has brought in among others mistakes, you don't address those at all, instead you go on some incoherent rant to continue to defend your boy and I am the one being sensitive. LOL  That is priceless! 

 

And then - and you can't make this stuff up - you say take Bruce out of it when he IS the conversation! 🙂  Too funny! I did not go much further than this. Clearly the rest is just more of the same stuff and addressing things I never said. It's been entertaining watching all the mental gymnastics you go through to both defend your man and also try to say you are not defending him!!  It really is a hoot. 

 

The fact remains this team has not progressed like it should/could with a competent GM. 2 POs appearances and no PO wins in 9 yrs. You can make all the excuses you want, but he has done very little good here outside a few decent drafts just here in the last few years. Bruce is just not a good GM, period. Are there other factors? Of course. And Jay may or may not be good enough to go further than he has. But we will not know until he has a more talented and healthier roster. And to do that the person in change needs to be held accountable. Right now, we are being told that is Bruce. If it turns out he was just some puppet being controlled by evil forces - Ok I can't finish that. Laughing too hard. 

 

Anything you say just proves my point, yet - new nonsensical rant in 3, 2, 1..... 

 

 

 

[HardcoreZorn]

31 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

So let me get this straight - you get all wound up because someone dares say Bruce is not a very good GM - the very last statement of a much longer response mostly agreeing with you.

 

Stopped here cause that’s not what you said. Gonna call quits on this one because it’s obvious you don’t even know what you’re arguing. Thanks for a good laugh. 

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

The fact remains this team has not progressed like it should/could with a competent GM. 2 POs appearances and no PO wins in 9 yrs. You can make all the excuses you want, but he has done very little good here outside a few decent drafts just here in the last few years. Bruce is just not a good GM, period. Are there other factors? Of course. And Jay may or may not be good enough to go further than he has. But we will not know until he has a more talented and healthier roster. And to do that the person in change needs to be held accountable. Right now, we are being told that is Bruce. If it turns out he was just some puppet being controlled by evil forces - Ok I can't finish that. Laughing too hard.

 

 

The irony is in the scheme of things, most of the critics here of Bruce (me included) are really much kinder than the typical critic of his.  We are much more annoying to the straggler Bruce defenders because we will shoot down a defense of him if we disagree but otherwise we are relatively kind to the dude compared to typical critics.   Most of us say the dude is mediocre at his job.  He is not an F student. But a C.  He has some successes among his failures.  The few people who defend him lionize his successes in a bigger way then they deserve and act like they never got acknowledged and harp on it like it's the be all and end all.  It's like my kid comes back with a C on his report card and he goes to me yeah I got a 50 on that quiz in that mix but did you see my 86 on the other quiz -- lets just talk about that.  But I am not interested in the highs among the lows.  When you are mediocre at your job it rarely happens in a straight line. 

 

It's not like you get a C on every exam.   You have some A's some B's some C's some D's and some F's.  It's about the big picture and as a whole what type of job are they doing.  What makes it difficult with Bruce and Dan is that they don't just come home with a C on the report card but their student behavior grades aren't hot.  It's not hey they are C students but they are so humble and wonderful.  The C report card comes with some baggage.  So it's tough to really celebrate it or judge them on a positive curve as a few people would like.   And I think we make it super easy by just saying win baby and we'd shut up.    It's not about how many excuses we got for being a C student.  It's how about showing you can do better than that consistently.  10 years is a long sample size for Bruce and 20 years is an insanely long sample size for Dan.  They don't deserve an ounce of more patience IMO.    

 

The reason why i am saying we are kinder to Bruce is most who others speak on the subject aren't saying he's so so -- but saying he's the worst.  They give him an F whether its competence, behavior, you name it.   

 

Tampa reporters including one who deemed him the Prince of Darkness

Draft geeks some of whom have suggested he's the worst GM in the business

He's mocked by the analytics guys like Sharp and Football outsiders as a buffoon

Multiple national reporters who have done rankings of GMs top to bottom -- Bruce just about always dead last

Some within the Redskins FO who leak stuff to some beat-radio guys clearly don't love him

A whole bunch of agents who were surveyed picked him dead last as for being trustworthy and close to dead last as for being prepared

The reporters who cover other teams in the NFC East goof on him including an Eagles reporter who said more or less he's the best thing going for all the OTHER teams in the NFC East

A vocal ex-colleague from the Raiders who goofs on him whenever he can including suggesting it's laughable that he is running a personnel department

JLC said from what he heard the Redskins if they tried to hire a top personnel type to that FO would likely struggle to do in part because the perception around the league about Bruce isn't kind  

You can google things and find blogs from Tampa fans wondering if Bruce is the worst GM in the league from the time he was there

 

According to Chris Russell even Jon Gruden once liked Bruce but now is disillusioned about him.  Russell said the rumor that the Raiders were interested in him years back was false was likely put out by Bruce himself to try to show he's in demand.   

 

I can go on and on an on.  And yeah maybe some of these people are off and the narratives might be off here and there.  But all of it?  At the very least, we can all agree the perception has been formed nationally in the corners that speak about the subject that Bruce is either the weakest GM in the league or one of the weakest.   So the people here who say he's so so are a heck of a lot kinder than the average critic.  Yeah mediocrity its marked by both peaks and valleys and we consider ALL of it.  It's not that we don't see the peaks among the valleys.  But it's odd to obsess about just the peaks.    As Bill Parcell's likes to say you can't hide what you are -- you are your record. 

 

And as for Jay.  Multiple beat reporters at different times have suggested that Jay hasn't always been happy with FA and wasn't happy among other things about losing D. Jax and Crowder.  So I don't see any logic in blaming Jay for the weak spot with this FO (according to some including Cooley) which is pro personnel since that's apparently the part of the operation that he isn't always satisfied with.  Conversely, we frequently hear that Jay and Kyle get along swimmingly.    College personnel and pro personnel are two different departments.  

[Skinsinparadise]

7. The under-the-radar hire from last week that you should pay some attention to: The Panthers tabbed 27-year-old Taylor Rajack as their new director of analytics, having poached him from Philly’s robust analytics department. The Eagles have asserted themselves as an NFL leader in that area over the last few years, and it’s helped them construct one of the league’s deepest roster. And while the Panthers have some catching up to do, they’ve had their toes in the water on analytics for a while. Coach Ron Rivera has integrated information from the team’s in-house analytics staff (fourth down is one area where you’ve seen it), and the team has been represented at the Sloan Conference in Boston annually, going back to when Dave Gettleman was GM. That said, new owner David Tepper has very clearly mandated a deeper investment in analytics, which makes sense given his background in finance, and bringing Rajack in is pretty clearly a move to start to shape the organization in the boss’ vision.

 

2. Redskins president Bruce Allen called reports that Alex Smith would miss the 2019 season and that his career could be in jeopardy “nonsense” back in late January. Now we’ve heard from Smith himself, and he’s pretty much confirmed what we were all hearing back then, even after Allen disputed what was out there. Talking to FOX DC 5’s Angie Goff, Smith said, “Learning to run again, that’s a big one. I’m already throwing. Throwing isn’t a problem, but dropping, moving around, change of direction. … The steps I’m at now are lifestyle steps. I’m still working on playing basketball with my kids and running around after my daughter. Those are things I have to conquer anyway until I get to the point where I’m walking on the field. I’m looking forward to it. I’m excited about that challenge. The stronger I get every week, the more I do, the more hopeful I am that that’s a real possibility." So by referring to his ability to play football again as a “possibility” that he’s “hopeful” will eventually be there for him, Smith is acknowledging what we’ve known. So the Redskins move forward with Case Keenum and Dwayne Haskins. One bit of decent news: There’s a chance Colt McCoy will be ready for the start of training camp—I’m told it’s going to be close. McCoy has undergone three surgeries in the aftermath of a broken leg suffered last December.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/06/24/jameis-winston-marcus-mariota-2019-season-contract-year?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=sinow&xid=socialflow_twitter_si

 

[RandyHolt]

Many believe Haskins is very raw and won't be ready to take snaps until Sept 2020, at the earliest. Maybe later, as who can say for sure how many years he needs to sit to gain the experience he lacks.  Did anyone ask Bruce why did he draft a raw QB?  Dan's son's classmate dropped into our laps at 15 and Bruce had no choice but to take him - he cannot admit that of course. 

 

Say we confirm in preseason what many already believe. Dwayne is VERY raw and just cannot see the field for his own good. Bruce likely knew at the draft Trent was disgruntled, and knowing next years QB class was much deeper, maybe he should have taken an OT instead.  Trade up for Bama's Jonah, or down and take Howard or Dillard.

 

It sure seems the plan this year provisioned for not taking a QB, with Case and Colt at the ready (3 surgeries and counting for Colt, aside 🤦‍♂️).  The team is in perennial win now mode, and I think we all know that winning is Bruce's #1 directive.  But we very well may not have a viable LT while trying to win... so Bruce will have gotten himself into a little mess as per usual - cart before the horseitis.

 

Say Dwayne really is 1-2 years away and it's obvious in August...  what should we do?  Play the long game on Haskins and wait out his development and hope he eventually pans out amid likely coaching changes, or panic trade him on the cheap and take a QB next year. The problem with waiting him out is we ignore more polished QBs in a rich QB class, and well, raw and polished QBs alike often fail, and their development time sucks years off a team otherwise ready to roll. The problem with a trade, is that we then need a QB AND a LT taken next year. 

 

I think we need to stop ****ing around first and foremost get Trent happy, or trade for an LT. Ben Dover, Bruce. Otherwise, everything we are doing this year is a waste of time. Case Dwayne Colt all will be running for their lives and will be lucky to survive.  My advice, to Jay, Rollout Right. Or, do like us fans have had to do.

 

[HTTRDynasty]

A couple shout-outs to Dan and Bruce here.  I always enjoy reading this every year. 

 

https://www.phillyvoice.com/10-reasons-washington-redskins-team-will-be-dumpster-fire-season/

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[redskinss]

On 6/19/2019 at 5:51 PM, ConnSKINS26 said:

find it interesting that so many people are so high on O'Connell...not just as an OC (who himself confirmed he won't call plays unless Gruden asks for one) but even as a potential successor?

Yeah I was wondering the same thing too, and not because I think he's bad or anything just that i don't see what he's done to warrant the excitement.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

A couple shout-outs to Dan and Bruce here.  I always enjoy reading this every year. 

 

https://www.phillyvoice.com/10-reasons-washington-redskins-team-will-be-dumpster-fire-season/

 

Wow, what a list, its a sad but must read all of it.  The Eagles beat guy had to put in a lot of time and research for that article let alone doing multiple cartoons. 

 

It's another case in point about how most of us here are easier on Bruce than most national types who criticize him.    Most of us critics think he's "meh'- so so.  I don't think he has any shot of building a SB team ever unless he gets lucky with an elite QB.   But there are worst run FOs, too.  Their mediocrity IMO is perfectly fitting to the decision making.    I do think he's upped his game from being bad on the aggregate to being so so.   Most of his critics though don't agree with the mediocre narrative -- they tend to kill him. 

 

https://www.phillyvoice.com/10-reasons-washington-redskins-team-will-be-dumpster-fire-season/

 

 

6) This feels like an opportune time to mention that Bruce Allen is somehow still making decisions for this team

As we noted last year, Allen was hired to be the Redskins' GM at the tail end of the 2009 season, and he has been the head personnel decision maker ever since, save for the short tenure of Scot McCloughan, who Allen helped oust after two season (2015-2016) with the team. In Allen's nine full seasons with the team, the Redskins' record is 59-84-1. After a 7-9 season in 2018, Washington's winning percentage under Allen improved to 0.413.

Beyond the bad record, Allen has a bad reputation among former colleagues, agents, and other personnel people around the league. He also didn't even know the name of his own starting quarterback.

There are a lot of general managers who shouldn't still be making high level decisions for their respective billion dollar businesses, and Allen is at the top of that list.

 

10) And as always, let me check to see if Daniel Snyder is still the owner.

Yep, he is.

And guess what! This year is special, because May 25 marked the 20th anniversary of Snyder buying the team. I won't go through a timeline of Snyder's awful reign -- Washington City Paper did a fine job of that.

I'll just end this by noting that fans of the three other NFC East teams celebrate him:

 

Here's to another 20 years.

---

[JSSkinz]

As much as it hurts its all undeniably true and those cartoons are hilarious

 

[Peregrine]

As horrid as a GM as I think Allen is, I learned something amazing through that piece there.......that further points out how super horrid he is.

 

This year, our offense looks terrible.  We dont have a starting QB.  We dont have a left side of an offensive line.  We dont have receivers.  We dont have TEs who are likely to play more than 6-7 games.  In fact the only position on the offense that feels like it has some strength is RB.  I think fans almost universally feel the defensive side is much better than the offensive side, and has to carry them through games.

 

Yet with all that, the Redskins have the #1 highest paid offense in the entire NFL.  Let that one sink in.

 

Thanks Brucey.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

On 6/23/2019 at 6:12 AM, goskins10 said:

The fact remains this team has not progressed like it should/could with a competent GM. 2 POs appearances and no PO wins in 9 yrs. You can make all the excuses you want, but he has done very little good here outside a few decent drafts just here in the last few years. Bruce is just not a good GM, period. Are there other factors? Of course.

 

1

 

I will remain convinced until my death bed that the unfair and almost crippling cap penalties hurt the team far, far, FAR more than almost anything else over the last 9 years. I even believe the RG3 trade doesn't go down if the cap penalties had been known a month earlier instead of the day before free agency started. In retrospect, I also think Shanahan was a terrible hire although an understandable one at the time. It's no coincidence that we only had one season with more than 7 wins during his tenure here, and we've only had one season with less than 7 wins after he was canned. And it's not because he built up the roster so well that it's been carrying the team in his absence.

 

I don't think Bruce is a good GM although technically he's not a GM, but the Skins absolutely need a real GM to propel the team and franchise forward.  Not the group-GM approach that appears to be their FO model.

 

Quote

Anything you say just proves my point, yet - new nonsensical rant in 3, 2, 1.....

 

What that really necessary?...Nothing about his posts--even his rants lol--qualify as "nonsensical". I personally abhor the easy "apologist/hater" labels that get used way too often in these types of debates. They add nothing.

[veteranskinsfan]

The Philly voice article was better than I expected.  The writer pulled no punches.  He sees the holes in our team right now.  His cartoons were good as well.

Its hard to have to listen to Philly sports radio living in Delaware.  I can only get Skins game day on one radio station here so must resort to streaming with i-phone.  Also, I tape the games if we are traveling so if they lose  I can watch the actual game in the middle of the week so I can calm down first.  It usually takes a couple of days to get back to normal and get over being pissed off at the stupid penalties, poor secondary play, awful quarterback throws, etc. etc.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 hours ago, Califan007 said:

I don't think Bruce is a good GM although technically he's not a GM, but the Skins absolutely need a real GM to propel the team and franchise forward.  Not the group-GM approach that appears to be their FO model.

I'll leave the rest of the post alone, but on this point...

 

That's what most of Bruce's "haters" like myself have been getting at for years.  Whatever it is that he is, is too much and not what's needed.  All the big decisions and direction of the franchise coming across his desk is a problem.  Too many chefs in the kitchen as it is, and unfortunately - the executive chef's resume is less than impressive and the food is bland.

 

Perhaps one day we'll find out that the owner is really the one calling the shots and the executive chef is just writing the menu to his liking.  But until that day comes, all the vitriol is spewed upon the less than impressive executive chef.

[Mr. Sinister]

If its true like that brbn article stated that Haskins availability wk 1will be a "joint decision" including owner,gm, coaches,etc, this team is soooooooo screwed.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I'll leave the rest of the post alone, but on this point...

 

That's what most of Bruce's "haters" like myself have been getting at for years.  Whatever it is that he is, is too much and not what's needed.  All the big decisions and direction of the franchise coming across his desk is a problem.  Too many chefs in the kitchen as it is, and unfortunately - the executive chef's resume is less than impressive and the food is bland.

 

Perhaps one day we'll find out that the owner is really the one calling the shots and the executive chef is just writing the menu to his liking.  But until that day comes, all the vitriol is spewed upon the less than impressive executive chef.

 

Yeah exactly.  I can care less if Bruce had a job in the FO.  My issue isn't really directly with Bruce.  My issue is the FO structure which is marked by the decision by committee stuff and headed by IMO arguably the least qualified person in the FO to make the final call.  And man doesn't that typify the Dan years?  The same dude who chases John Schneider out of the building for Vinny Cerrato. The same dude who put Shanny in charge of personnel even though it was his failures overseeing personnel duties that cost him his previous job in Denver.  The same dude who canned Scot (I understood why) but totally missed why fans were so excited about having a guy with that profile and instead replaced him by essentially a nostalgia based hire.  

 

Can there be an owner that's more dense as to how to run a FO?  The best I can give Dan is that he was duped by Vinny and now Bruce who are so adept at playing Machiavellian games to rise and stay in power.  Some beat guys have actually suggested that theory as part of the soup -- saying Bruce and before that Vinny knew how to play the behind the scenes power game at Redskins Park.   Personally, I doubt it's the operative thing though.  I just think Vinny and Bruce are Dan kind of guys.  Cool guys to go drinking with and trade stories about how they are all great.  And they are good at covering each others backs.   

 

Having said that, I have no way to know.  Heck I can even ride with the FO-Dan defenders who like to say much of this is speculation and can we truly know?  Yeah, that's true.  Dan is too Greta Garbo like as for hiding from the public (especially of late) to get a handle on.  So I'll run with the idea of just win dude.  If all the critics are wrong and they are really rock and rolling with a smoothly run FO then prove it and win. 

 

As for some of the heated arguments on this thread, Bruce haters, Bruce defenders, etc.  Its been a lot of the some people challenging this FO in this thread and its been a lot of the same people defending it. 😀 Again and again and again.   There are some nuances in everyone's point.  But it's not hard to gauge on the aggregate where everyone stands.  And we've all posted a lot.  Though I'll say some changed their tune this year but most have been fairly consistent. 

 

It's been a wild ride for me.  I've actually had Bruce's back years back and even Dan during the Shanny years when he was under seige.  They had to earn my distaste.   The nicest thing I can say for Bruce is this:  I'd be surprised albeit not shocked if i learned one day that this was Cerrato round 2.  That is, Cerrato was a stooge for Dan and was mostly doing his bidding as opposed to making these decisions himself.   For that to be the case here, Dan would have pulled off a coup by keeping it so secret -- because most beat reporters (even those who don't like Dan) think that Dan has been mostly hands off and Bruce is his own man in the FO.   

 

Still, there would be some logic to the idea that maybe Dan really does get the PR and real value of having a top personnel type being in charge of personnel -- yet he needs Bruce because he will keep his cover and knows how to do Dan's bidding without spilling the beans about it.  Personally, I doubt it.   But I can't rule it out either. 

[Conn]

7 hours ago, veteranskinsfan said:

It usually takes a couple of days to get back to normal and get over being pissed off at the stupid penalties, poor secondary play, awful quarterback throws, etc. etc.

 

I miss feeling like this. Haven't felt like this since 2013 or so I think. I want it back so badly because it will mean I don't expect the worst every week, it will mean I have hope again. 

[NewCliche21]

1 hour ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

I miss feeling like this. Haven't felt like this since 2013 or so I think. I want it back so badly because it will mean I don't expect the worst every week, it will mean I have hope again. 

 

Right?  What I wouldn't give to actually care about an outcome.  And 2014 was just the worst.  It's like losing feeling and never quite getting it back, even after the excitement of 2015 and 2016.

 

I just want to care again.  Reading that the starting quarterback is anything but a coach's decision is just another shot of Novocaine.