The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

Even with Wentz and the Dline with monster PFF numbers last year, the Eagles were 4-6 after 10 games. They had to pull a Redskins-like 5-1 run at the end of the season to make it to 9-7. Assuming Wentz stays healthy all year and has improved--which could be a coin toss at this point--there are too many really good teams on their schedule for me to have much faith in them having 10+ wins. Their last 5 games, though, do have the potential to be rather winnable imo. So they could pull 10 wins out of their ass lol...

 

Their losses were super close with the exception of the Saints game.  Desean Jackson IMO is a perfect complement to the receivers they have.  Arcega-Whiteside IMO is a good pick from the last draft and should also help the receivers.   Adding both Miles Sanders and Jordan Howard I think fixes their run game.  I recall one NFL pundit saying the other day that the Eagles might have the best roster in the league.  I wouldn't go that far.  But I do think they in off seasons do a good job of trying to fix everything as opposed to leaving some positions to chance.    Wentz coming off of an ACL wasn't the same last year and then got hurt again.  Usually (sans Adrian Peterson) players tend to be better in the 2nd season coming off the ACL not the first.  But Wentz is the wildcard.  When Wentz is right, he's a stud IMO.  But can he stay healthy?

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Their losses were super close with the exception of the Saints game.  Desean Jackson IMO is a perfect complement to the receivers they have.  Arcega-Whiteside IMO is a good pick from the last draft and should also help the receivers.   Adding both Miles Sanders and Jordan Howard I think fixes their run game.  I recall one NFL pundit saying the other day that the Eagles might have the best roster in the league.  I wouldn't go that far.  But I do think they in off seasons do a good job of trying to fix everything as opposed to leaving some positions to chance.    Wentz coming off of an ACL wasn't the same last year and then got hurt again.  Usually (sans Adrian Peterson) players tend to be better in the 2nd season coming off the ACL not the first.  But Wentz is the wildcard.  When Wentz is right, he's a stud IMO.  But can he stay healthy?

 

 

 

I had to look up videos on Arcega-Whiteside...daaaaamn lol...I'm not sure our QBs would throw half those passes to him, though, he was covered pretty well on a lot of them.

 

Then again, Doctson had a "daaaaamn" video highlight reel as well.

[Skinsinparadise]

56 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

I had to look up videos on Arcega-Whiteside...daaaaamn lol...I'm not sure our QBs would throw half those passes to him, though, he was covered pretty well on a lot of them.

 

Then again, Doctson had a "daaaaamn" video highlight reel as well.

 

Whiteside plays stylistically somewhat like Harmon.  He's faster than Harmon.  Harmon IMO has stronger hands.

 

I think their best deal was getting D. Jax for a ham sandwich.

 

 

 

 

[wit33]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Whiteside plays stylistically somewhat like Harmon.  He's faster than Harmon.  Harmon IMO has stronger hands.

 

I think their best deal was getting D. Jax for a ham sandwich.

 

 

 

 

 

Eagles look to have the pieces in place for a special run. 

 

I think Pederson and scheme is extremely overrated, so hoping I’m right. 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Eagles look to have the pieces in place for a special run. 

 

I think Pederson and scheme is extremely overrated, so hoping I’m right. 

 

I read Pederson's book and he did a rare thing for me -- he made me like the subject of the book less.  I typically tend to respect the subjects of books naturally more when I read about them.  Pederson though to me came off so arrogant that it turned me off.

 

As for his play calling, it seems like the gist of it is heavy RPOs and to zig when opponent defensive coordinators expect him to zag and take lots of chances.  The Eagles get hyped for using analytics in team building and also play calling.  Warren Sharp who some think is an analytics king  worships the Eagles and how they go about their business and conversely doesn't think much about the Redskins in that regard.   So Pederson gets some hype from the analytics crowd.  Other than that, I don't care for Pederson's personality which in my view is a key component in being a good head coach.  As for play calling, I am not sure.  

[wit33]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I read Pederson's book and he did a rare thing for me -- he made me like the subject of the book less.  I typically tend to respect the subjects of books naturally more when I read about them.  Pederson though to me came off so arrogant that it turned me off.

 

Thanks for sharing about the book. I’ve not read his book or much on him outside of what comes with being a Skins fan. I agree about him appearing arrogant and entitled (total conjecture on my part). 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As for his play calling, it seems like the gist of it is heavy RPOs and to zig when opponent defensive coordinators expect him to zag and take lots of chances.  The Eagles get hyped for using analytics in team building and also play calling.  Warren Sharp who some think is an analytics king  worships the Eagles and how they go about their business and conversely doesn't think much about the Redskins in that regard.   So Pederson gets some hype from the analytics crowd.  Other than that, I don't care for Pederson's personality which in my view is a key component in being a good head coach.  As for play calling, I am not sure.  

 

I’ve not been impressed with the scheme and never have viewed it as this transcendent offense, but I understand the super bowl was real and happened lol. 

 

100% support and respect the Eagles/Pederson for using analytics to go against norms and take what many consider risks to tilt situations in their favor. 

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Thanks for sharing about the book. I’ve not read his book or much on him outside of what comes with being a Skins fan. I agree about him appearing arrogant and entitled (total conjecture on my part). 

 

For my taste, he comes off preachy but what got me about it is he gets into everything, his music taste, personal habits outside of football, etc and talks about it in a way where he comes off like you all should want to be like me.  For me it came off nauseating.  

[HTTRDynasty]

 

 

 

 

 

[SkinsGuy]

Here's an article about the scouting changes in the Redskins' front office (courtesy of Wildbunny's Breaking News Forum):

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/redskins-announce-number-changes-front-office-scouting-staff

 

It also says the Redskins hired someone named Connor Barringer as a football strategy analyst.

 

What is that? 🤔

[Califan007 The Constipated]

21 minutes ago, SkinsGuy said:

Here's an article about the scouting changes in the Redskins' front office (courtesy of Wildbunny's Breaking News Forum):

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/redskins-announce-number-changes-front-office-scouting-staff

 

It also says the Redskins hired someone named Connor Barringer as a football strategy analyst.

 

What is that? 🤔

 

Not sure, but apparently the Skins and the Colts are the only teams with someone holding that position lol (at least according to google).

[SkinsGuy]

11 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

Not sure, but apparently the Skins and the Colts are the only teams with someone holding that position lol (at least according to google).

 

I read more about it in this article here (again, courtesy of Wildbunny's Breaking News Forum):

 

https://riggosrag.com/2019/06/13/redskins-hire-football-strategy-analyst-indicating-shift-toward-analytics/

 

Interesting.

 

The article makes it sound like new OC Jerry O'Connell was angling for this.

 

Wonder if this hiring was his suggestion?

[Skinsinparadise]

Russell  has been talking on and off for awhile now about Doug wanting more power behind the scenes and a bigger title.  Russell also believes that Doug would be upset if Kyle ever gets elevated above him as for his title.   I love Doug the player.  And I also think he's a super classy dude and a nice guy.    And that means something to me.   However, my #1 beef with this front office to begin with is the hierarchy.  I don't dislike the players in the front office as for their talents.  But I do dislike the configuration of that front office.   

 

 I am using major hyperbole to make a point -- but to me its like I got Warren Buffet in my office and he makes stock recommendations for a mutual fund I run.  And I decide whether I want to follow those recommendations.  And my background isn't finance.   And somehow I am supposed to reassure all my investors that they are better off that I and not Warren have final say because heck I ride with what Warren wants most of the time anyway.   And to add insult to injury, I am disliked by many of my colleagues in the business and I get made fun of for being incompetent in the national media.  Yet, my investors should just chill and stop complaining about the weird set up.  

 

Now that was me talking about Bruce.  Bruce to me if he stayed in his lane which is contracts-money -- I'd be fine with him.  But that's not how he rolls or Dan just likes him there for his own cover.  Now Doug seems to be described as a facilitator-communicator behind the scenes.  He makes sure things run well.   Some tout well hey he pushed the Peterson thing.  Doug's own story was that it was Schaffer's idea but he made it happen from that suggestion.  Heck anyone of us could say hey how about Adrian Peterson?   My point is I don't want Doug with power over Kyle in the GM spot if it becomes a battle between the two.

 

And if Dan thinks fans would rather have Doug happy and he stays even if it means Kyle leaves -- I think he's wrong.  I don't think fans are obsessed with nostalgia like Dan is.  Dan pushed John Schneider out the door to bring back his buddy Vinny.   Can you imagine if he does this with Kyle to either keep Bruce or avoid offending Doug?  And I am just going on speculation here with a what if scenario.  But if Russell is right that there might be a battle turf ultimately for power then I am on team Kyle.  Heck I like Doug and if he can stay too then great.

 

Cooley said for years well before McVay became the HC of the Rams that he was a special coach.  Cooley is not a homer and isn't shy to criticize.  He likewise says he's talked ball with Kyle Smith and he thinks he is special, too.  He compared him to being the McVay of the FO. 

 

I could be wrong but here's my best guess on how things work behind the scenes based on different reports.

 

Right now from what I've gathered as to college scouting -- Kyle is the man.  Kyle listens to his scouts and does his own scouting.   He sets the draft board.  Doug though has power over him because he can overrule him if he chose.  Then Bruce is above Doug and he can overrule Doug and Kyle.  The mystery is does Bruce do Dan's bidding from time to time and cover for him?  Most (albeit not all) who cover the team says Bruce is a strong personality in his own right and his moves are indeed his own. 

 

Russell is a bit all over the place when describing Doug's role.  One thing is clear is that Russell is a big Doug homer and has been that way for years.   But he's backed off of one key point about him.   That is, about whether Doug is a good scout-evaluator. When Russell was advocating for Doug on his radio show before Doug got his promotion -- he was going that he heard from people in that building that people loved Doug as a dude but didn't think highly of him as an evaluator.     Russell though advocated for him anyway by saying he's heard that Doug has stepped it up and was working hard to upgrade his skills in that department.  Now (2 or so years later), Russell now says people in that building still don't think highly of him as an evaluator.  But again love the dude.  And Dan has a soft spot for him.

 

I think by a mile there are two things that have foiled Dan's 20 years as an owner.  He's never for whatever reason understood that you want to have the best at the top as for picking the groceries.  And he and his FO people kept botching the QB position.   And arguably both variables go hand in hand.  The funny thing for me is Dan can fix things so easily.  Just elevate Kyle.  And hope that Haskins is a franchise QB.  If that happens then I think the rest will take care of itself.  But if he continues to get the QB position wrong and continues to not having a top personnel guy actually run personnel -- then I think we'd be on the same old same old treadmill. 

 

If people want to argue the new version of the treadmill is mediocrity and we aren't awful anymore -- sure I'll ride that point.  But I think the team's brand will crash to an extent if they stay stuck at mediocre.   The brand IMO is at a borderline crisis where it's arguably losing its standing as a nationally relevant franchise -- coupled with declining fan attendance and TV ratings.  Another 8-8 season isn't going to fix that IMO. 

 

Come on Dan, 20 years is the charm?    Let's do it.  Promote Kyle.  😀

[Conn]

That's the problem with nepotism.

 

Doug Williams the player has a storied position in Redskins history and a special place in our hearts.

 

Doug Williams the personnel man has nothing on his resume to speak of that would qualify him for this job in the first place (even without a title), never mind a promotion above an ascending young stud evaluator (allegedly) like Kyle Smith. 

 

Now how do we reconcile these two points without creating an awkward position? Hopefully we don't worry about the awkwardness, promote Kyle and can Doug if his ego makes it necessary, and move on from Bruce eventually. 

 

Somehow I struggle to see us getting this right, though. 

[RWJ]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 My point is I don't want Doug with power over Kyle in the GM spot if it becomes a battle between the two.

 

And if Dan thinks fans would rather have Doug happy and he stays even if it means Kyle leaves -- I think he's wrong.  I don't think fans are obsessed with nostalgia like Dan is.  Dan pushed John Schneider out the door to bring back his buddy Vinny.   Can you imagine if he does this with Kyle to either keep Bruce or avoid offending Doug?  And I am just going on speculation here with a what if scenario.  But if Russell is right that there might be a battle turf ultimately for power then I am on team Kyle.  

 

Cooley said for years well before McVay became the HC of the Rams that he was a special coach.  Cooley is not a homer and isn't shy to criticize.  He likewise says he's talked ball with Kyle Smith and he thinks he is special, too.  He compared him to being the McVay of the FO. 

 

I could be wrong but here's my best guess on how things work behind the scenes based on different reports.

 

Right now from what I've gathered as to college scouting -- Kyle is the man.  Kyle listens to his scouts and does his own scouting.   He sets the draft board.  Doug though has power over him because he can overrule him if he choose.  Then Bruce is above Doug and he can overrule Doug and Kyle.  The mystery is does Bruce do Dan's bidding from time to time and cover for him?  Most (albeit not all) who cover the team says Bruce is a strong personality in his own right and his moves or his own. 

 

Just elevate Kyle.  And hope that Haskins is a franchise QB.  If that happens then I think the rest will take care of itself.  But if he continues to get the QB position wrong and continues to not having a top personnel guy actually run personnel -- then I think we'd be on the same old same old treadmill. 

 

Come on Dan, 20 years is the charm?    Let's do it.  Promote Kyle.  😀

Agree totally with all I have kept in your original post.  Smith should be given the title of GM of the Skins.  Keim even agreed in a tweet I sent to him.  How they deal with Williams will be an interesting one but the Skins can't make the same mistake like they did with McVay and let one of the better up and coming future GMs get away from the Skins!

[JSSkinz]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

yeah I saw the Pro Football Focus connection and I like it.  PFF has it's faults but I do like incorporating analytics.  And I like this trend.  The team is the past has been characterized as being behind most of the league on this front.

 

I know some on the draft thread think our college scouting is a bit overrated.  I get the point thought I slightly disagree.  They've made mistakes.  And they haven't been per se the best in the league at drafting albeit some draft geeks think they had the best draft last year but we will see.  Nonetheless, I think they can be characterized being at least good at it.  And if Kyle is an emerging talented evaluator -- you can argue he will just keep getting better. 

 

I don't sweat the college scouting and I like everything I heard about how they are working on picking up their game on that front even more.  Now, if only I believed the same way in the pro scouting which is led by Santos and from what I heard that's where Bruce interjects much more than college scouting -- Doug, too.    Santos has really been taken off the hook by maybe being big time low profile.  But their FA crop for years and the trades they've made have been "meh" at best.  Some victories among the losses but way too many loses.  I'd love to see Kyle elevated in part because as much as I like the college scouting -- I think the pro scouting is seriously lacking.  In my view, that's where the Eagles separate from the pack.  The Eagles make mistakes too but their pro scouting IMO is really good.    We don't have really good pro scouting IMO. 

 

I think our college scouting can compete with anyone including the Eagles.  And I think that's testament to Kyle big time considering whenever you hear about FOs the Eagles FO as an example is billed as one that is littered with star evaluators (ditto other teams like the Seahawks) where its not just about one dude.  With the Redskins, I guess you never know perhaps Spencer or the other scouts are stars in the making behind Kyle but if so they are going below the radar nationally.   Actually Kyle is somewhat below the radar too though he's getting more national kudos.  But still I rarely hear Kyle mentioned when Breer or Schrager or all those guys who claim to be plugged in about who everyone talks about as to front office stars. 

[drowland]

To use a baseball analogy, I think the Skins have been pretty good with hitting singles and doubles in recent drafts.  However to really close the gap with the top teams they need to start hitting more triples and get some home runs in there.  

[Thinking Skins]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I don't sweat the college scouting and I like everything I heard about how they are working on picking up their game on that front even more.  Now, if only I believed the same way in the pro scouting which is led by Santos and from what I heard that's where Bruce interjects much more than college scouting -- Doug, too. 

 

I'm not going to say I like the job our pro scoring has been doing, but it seems like K Smith has a big role in that too. I'm looking at the names we're going after and it seems to be a direct correlation to players we liked in previous drafts. Makes sense because that's kinda where the scouting of any player starts but we seem to have a mentality of "i can fix what this guy has done wrong in the pros", which allows us to bargain basement dive in pro scouting. 

 

That said, i think the problem is less with the strategy and more with the way pro scouting works. The draft is a lottery but you're basically going in on these cheap tickets that can turn your franchise around. But free agency is also a lottery in that the good players often have so many teams going after them, which drives their price up, and even then they still may not choose us. 

 

Like how bad did we go after HaHa, only food him to choose Chicago. Similar for Mosley, and for C. Campbell, but couldn't land him. 

 

I don't think the GB strategy is the ultimate way forward but i think you've got to (a) believe coaches can coach talent to its potential and (b) not invest too much into one position or player because that's not good management. Ideally I like the bigger contracts going to guys who have been here and that we know can when in this system / environment. I don't like overpaying for guys like Richardson/McClain/McGee, but i do like the deals we were able to get with guys like DJ, Brown, Bostic, Brantley, etc. Some low risk high reward things. We'll see about Collins but I suspect that Smith had a bigger role in his signing than your giving credit for. 

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

I'm not going to say I like the job our pro scoring has been doing, but it seems like K Smith has a big role in that too. I'm looking at the names we're going after and it seems to be a direct correlation to players we liked in previous drafts. Makes sense because that's kinda where the scouting of any player starts but we seem to have a mentality of "i can fix what this guy has done wrong in the pros", which allows us to bargain basement dive in pro scouting. 

 

 

People who cover the team have said that point is flat out untrue.  However, that started to change according to some during the season last year where they asked Kyle to weigh in.  Russell suspected he did on Clinton-Dix.  What's the real answer?  I don't know.  But I suspect Kyle hasn't been doing much as for driving trades and FA.

 

24 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

That said, i think the problem is less with the strategy and more with the way pro scouting works.

 

To me its largely strategy.  Their trades -- just about all of them have been bad.  I'd add unlike teams like the Patriots (or at times the Eagles) we typically don't get decent compensation for our own players.   We mostly lose on trades both in terms of what we give up and as to getting compensation for our own players.  And that's not the case for every team -- its a Redskins thing.

 

As for FA hits and misses -- more misses than hits.  No one talks about A. Santos (at least far as I can recall) as a rising star for squat.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, drowland said:

To use a baseball analogy, I think the Skins have been pretty good with hitting singles and doubles in recent drafts.  However to really close the gap with the top teams they need to start hitting more triples and get some home runs in there.  

 

Yeah that's been one thing that has alluded Dan's whole tenure really.  The Redskins don't seem to find the stars with maybe Trent being the exception.  They end up with some good players or maybe very good.   But not the elite guys.  No Von Miller, Antonio Brown, Julio Jones, Barkley, Elliot, etc.

 

Arguably that's part of what has taken its toll on this team arguably being no longer a flagship NFL franchise as for national appeal.  If I recall we didn't have a single jersey in the top 75 of sales last season while the NFC East if i recall had 6 of the top 10 best sellers -- none of whom play here.   

 

I've ignored this dynamic because it doesn't effect my viewership.  But I've finally picked up on that this team is yawn nationally.  And as to winning, Cooley likes to see having your own Beckham type is critical for team morale.  His point is if you know you have a player who can take over a game at any time -- it boosts the confidence of everyone and elevates everyone's game.

 

 

 

[drowland]

41 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah that's been one thing that has alluded Dan's whole tenure really.  The Redskins don't seem to find the stars with maybe Trent being the exception.  They end up with some good players or maybe very good.   But not the elite guys.  No Von Miller, Antonio Brown, Julio Jones, Barkley, Elliot, etc.

 

Arguably that's part of what has taken its toll on this team arguably being no longer a flagship NFL franchise as for national appeal.  If I recall we didn't have a single jersey in the top 75 of sales last season while the NFC East if i recall had 6 of the top 10 best sellers -- none of whom play here.   

 

I've ignored this dynamic because it doesn't effect my viewership.  But I've finally picked up on that this team is yawn nationally.  And as to winning, Cooley likes to see having your own Beckham type is critical for team morale.  His point is if you know you have a player who can take over a game at any time -- it boosts the confidence of everyone and elevates everyone's game.

 

 

I'm talking more in regards to what Seattle did from 2010 to 2012 in draft:

 

Golden Tate - 2nd rd

Bobby Wagner - 2nd rd

Russell Wilson - 3rd rd

KJ Wright - 4th rd

Walter Thurmond - 4th

Richard Sherman - 5th rd

Kam Chancellor - 5th rd

Byron Maxwell - 6th rd

Jeremy Lane - 6th rd

JR Sweezy - 7th rd

Malcom Smith - 7th rd

Doug Baldwin - UDFA

Jermaine Kearse - UDFA

 

That's not counting their 1st rd picks Earl Thomas, Russel Okung, James Carpenter and Bruce Irvin who you expect to be good although Earl was really the only star of those 4.  Okung was mostly overrated and Carpenter and Irvin were okay.  That's what you call hitting doubles, triples and home runs in the draft and UDFA market.  And when you do it in consecutive drafts like Seattle did, mixed with some good trades (Lynch) and a few key FA signings to fill in the holes (Avril, Bennett) you can contend.  

[SkinFanInMinn]

If everyone keeps touting the work Kyle is doing, Bruce is going to run him out of town.  Just sayin...

[Thinking Skins]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

People who cover the team have said that point is flat out untrue.  However, that started to change according to some during the season last year where they asked Kyle to weigh in.  Russell suspected he did on Clinton-Dix.  What's the real answer?  I don't know.  But I suspect Kyle hasn't been doing much as for driving trades and FA.

Don't know how this can be the case considering who we are going after and who we were rumored to like when players came out. Think Ruben Foster, Landon Collins, Brantley, Flowers. I don't know how true it is or how much weight I'd put into the older vets like Alex Smith but there's definitely a correlation between the young free agents and our draft prospects. 

[Conn]

2 hours ago, SkinFanInMinn said:

If everyone keeps touting the work Kyle is doing, Bruce is going to run him out of town.  Just sayin...

 

That's a mindset we need to lose, and for that to happen we need to promote promising guys and sesrch for qualified outside hires when that's not the best option to improve. Hopefully we are near the end of the Bruce Allen era but who knows. I kinda hope to have a thread here next January asking what hot young HC candidate Kyle Smith the GM will be hiring to work with Haskins. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Don't know how this can be the case considering who we are going after and who we were rumored to like when players came out. Think Ruben Foster, Landon Collins, Brantley, Flowers. I don't know how true it is or how much weight I'd put into the older vets like Alex Smith but there's definitely a correlation between the young free agents and our draft prospects. 

 

Your point though barks up a different trees.  You are suggesting since Kyle scouted them in college they must be using his college reports in the soup of their decision making.  Yeah of course they use reports of everyone as to going back to their college reports.  Jay talked about this specifically. I'd bet every team does that.    Still its been Santos-Doug-Bruce -- at least according to people who cover the team running pro scouting and not Kyle Smith or a heavy doses of Kyle.  As Russell said last season and if I recall someone else did too -- they were trying to incorporate Kyle some in their decision making during that season.  But that was depicted as a new development as opposed to something that's been going on for years.  As for what the reality is -- you got me.  But that narrative makes sense to me.