2018 Comprehensive NFL Draft Thread

[Koolblue13]

37 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Drafting to fill needs is never the best way to draft.  SIP is right that you don't abandon BPA because you didn't sign some free agent.  The draft is about finding foundation pieces that will hopefully be a part of your team for seven to ten seasons.  Rookies should never be relied upon to fill in immediate roster holes anyway.

Especially when said FA will obviously still be available after the draft and we still have the post draft cuts coming. 

[Going Commando]

12 hours ago, bh32 said:

I just don't get the thinking of people wanting to draft a DB or RB over DL..Has everyone forgot how bad the run defense was last year?

Tired of the Redskins building from the back end forward as it has never worked out then and will not work out now..there is no safety or DB close to Sean Taylor in this draft and even he could not help the poor run defense back then..It's time to fix the front seven once and for all

 

Some of those ST defenses were actually pretty good against the run.  We were third in y/a in the NFL in 2007 and first in 2004.  The only really awful defense was 2006's, and that one pretty much had healthy seasons from all our DL mainstays.  It sucked because we lost Shawn Springs half the year and had no decent replacement, and we tried to get by with a bum MLB in Lemar Marshall.  They got back to playing great defense again the next year by replacing Marshall with London Fletcher and improving the DB situation.

 

Defenses are integrated systems.  You need good second and third level defenders to play good run defense too.  Troy Polamalu and Ike Taylor and James Farrior and James Harrison were as much a part of the success of dominant Steelers run defenses as Aaron Smith and Casey Hampton were.  Or for more recent examples, the same is true for Kuechly and Davis and Norman in relation to Kawann Short and Charles Johnson for Carolina; Chris Harris, Aqib Talib, TJ Ward, Danny Trevathan, and Vonn Miller in relation to Sylvestre Williams and Malik Jackson; Earl Thomas, Richard Sherman, Kam Chancellor, KJ Wright, and Bobby Wagner in relation to Michael Bennett and Cliff Avril.

 

Or to cite Alabama's historically great defenses the past three years--DaRon Payne, Da'Shawn Hand, Dalvin Thomlinson, Jonathan Allen, Jarran Reed, and A'Shawn Robinson were critical to their dominance.  But so were Minkah and Rashaan Evans and Reuben Foster and Ryan Anderson and Reggie Ragland and Cyrus Jones and Marlon Humphrey and Eddie Jackson and Tim Williams and Anthony Averett. 

 

You need good players everywhere on defense because you're still going to get gashed even if you win at the line if you're losing at the second level.  And the truth is you can get by rotating lesser players on the interior of your defensive line far more easily than trying to do the same in your secondary.  Every great defense from the past few years has fielded every down defensive backs and stack linebackers.  It's too hard to rotate these positions with situational players.  One of the reasons our defenses suck is because we've had no mainstays at safety and stack linebacker for several years and we've tried to get cute by rotating JAG bargain bin bodies at these spots in order to survive.  But you can get away with heavy situational rotation on your line.  You have to rotate the interior lnemen anyway because of the nature of the position.

[HigSkin]

 

Numerous sources caution against putting too much into the visits, but it's still a sign of a certain level of interest.

 

 

[Going Commando]

All of that said @bh32, I think you might be getting your wish for a DL at 13 because there is a very good chance that a DL will be BPA there.

 

I've been watching Payne and Vea the past few days and I've become convinced that they are every down players and both have a chance to be significantly better and more versatile NFL players than they were in college.  Probowl caliber potential for each of them.

 

I think I was wrong to initially put them in the back-half of the first and I was definitely wrong in initially thinking that they were just run down players.

 

Lance Zierlein also has both grading 6.5 or better, which puts them in the top ten of his grades for the class.

 

It would not shock me at all if Vea went 10th or 11th to Oakland/Miami and we took Payne at 13.  This is an unusual DL class.

[Going Commando]

Also wanted to say that I see the Vea vs Payne debate mirroring the Roquan Smith vs Tremaine Edmunds debate in the central dynamic.

 

Raw talent in a 99th percentile body with monstrous potential vs. the much better and more successful player who is still a top notch athlete for the position but is in a much, much lower percentile body.

 

It's a tough choice.  But in the end I think I prefer the Payne/Smith option because it involves much less projection and I can trust them.

[HTTRDynasty]

The main team I see consistently taking Vea before us in mocks are the Raiders at pick #10.  I wonder if Jon has told Jay if that's going to be the pick or not.  I wouldn't be surprised if he has.  Can't hurt to have a brother picking 3 spots ahead of you for a team with similar needs to your own.  If so, that definitely gives us an advantage on draft day as to knowing who might be there at #13.

[Going Commando]

I would be surprised if Jon and Jay were talking out of school like that.  Also, the most Jon could probably communicate is whether or not he likes X prospect and sees him as having value at ten because Jon doesn't know whose going to be there until his pick comes up.

[skinsfan834]

3 hours ago, sjinhan said:

Man just go and get Bryant and trade Doctson for some draft value....  if Doctson is any good then we need to pay Bryant type money anyways....

 

trade Doctson for 2nd and 3rd... or something like that... unload him for some draft picks... would love to get two 2nds for Doctson

 

This really hurts my brain

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2702271-mel-kiper-todd-mcshay-nfl-mock-draft-2017-notable-picks-from-2-round-mocks

 

^^ Kiper and mcshay's mock draft for last year. Not sure if this is their final one. 

 

Allen going 3rd and 4th overall, respectively.

 

Both had Samaje Perine going 55th overall to NYG.  

 

 

 

[bowhunter]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Also wanted to say that I see the Vea vs Payne debate mirroring the Roquan Smith vs Tremaine Edmunds debate in the central dynamic.

 

Raw talent in a 99th percentile body with monstrous potential vs. the much better and more successful player who is still a top notch athlete for the position but is in a much, much lower percentile body.

 

It's a tough choice.  But in the end I think I prefer the Payne/Smith option because it involves much less projection and I can trust them.

Is Veas floor Paynes ceiling?? If they are equal now, which has the potential to become MUCH better?? Hence my desire to go Vea over Payne. Same for Edmunds over Smith

[JamesMadisonSkins]

Think a couple things are a given in this draft. We'll spend a mid-rounder on a CB and a Safety. Just seems consistent with past strategies. We do need more safety depth and having more CBs never hurt anyone, though I do like the cast we've assembled. So I have spent a decent amount of time looking into who would be good to take that fits the team in that 4th to 6th round range. Fortunately, we have 4 picks in there to make it happen. And I wouldn't rule-out a trade-down to add another mid-round pick. Seems to happen every year.

[Going Commando]

Just now, bowhunter said:

Is Veas floor Paynes ceiling?? If they are equal now, which has the potential to become MUCH better?? Hence my desire to go Vea over Payne. Same for Edmunds over Smith

 

I don't think they're equal, I think Payne is significantly better.  Better technician, faster, more aggressive, better hands, plays harder, and he was more successful.  Payne was the starting nose for arguably the greatest three year run of defenses in CFB history.  He and Minkah were the two common denominators on all three teams.  They're coming into the NFL as two of the most successful defensive players in CFB history.

[duffy]

14 minutes ago, Why am I Mr. Pink? said:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2702271-mel-kiper-todd-mcshay-nfl-mock-draft-2017-notable-picks-from-2-round-mocks

 

^^ Kiper and mcshay's mock draft for last year. Not sure if this is their final one. 

 

Allen going 3rd and 4th overall, respectively.

 

Both had Samaje Perine going 55th overall to NYG.  

 

 

 

Fabian Moreau at 47 & 61

[bowhunter]

12 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I don't think they're equal, I think Payne is significantly better.  Better technician, faster, more aggressive, better hands, plays harder, and he was more successful.  Payne was the starting nose for arguably the greatest three year run of defenses in CFB history.  He and Minkah were the two common denominators on all three teams.  They're coming into the NFL as two of the most successful defensive players in CFB history.

I get the legacy of that Alabama D, and great point BTW. But I feel rather confident that Vea would/could have made that D equally successful, if not more so. Now I do agree completely about Minkah,  

-In fact my only real concern about Vea is whether the human body can actually sustain being that large and that powerful for a significant period of time before it begins to wear down

[JamesMadisonSkins]

With that 3-way trade talk, I'm actually curious if this is the route:

 

- Giants trade #2 to Buffalo for 1.12 + 1.22 + 3.1 and a 2019 1st round pick

Browns go Darnold at 1, Bills go Allen at 2, Jets go Mayfield at 3

 

- Giants trade 1.12 and 1.22 to Cleveland for 1.4 and take Saquan Barkley

 

Kind of makes sense for everyone. And while it might not be a "3 team" trade all together and act as separate transactions on draft day, I could see it going down with an understanding that Buffalo still gets their guy at #2 ... and the Giants get their guy at #4 ... and Cleveland gets 12 and 22.

 

Bills get: #2

Giants get: #4, #53 and a 2019 1st round pick

Browns get: #12, #22

Also, the Bills keep their 53 and 55 picks to re-tool their OL around their new QB, rather than give up all their early picks this year.

[Skinsinparadise]

I know some might be interested, some clearly not but for what its worth, listening to Cooley-Casserly talk draft today.  Some of their points:

 

Casserly

A. Likes Vea a lot, thinks he's the perfect need fit for the Redskins.  Likes Payne but not as much, sees Payne as a late first rounder.  Vea to him brings more pass rush than Payne.

B. Loves Guice, sees him as 2nd best RB in the draft.  Jones is #3.  However, he has 6 RBs with first round grades -- Barkley, Guice, Jones, Michel, Chubb, Penny.

 

Cooley

A. Loves DJ Chark, he thinks he's mega explosive and he's going to be one of those players people will wonder about after the season as to why wasn't he taken earlier.

B. He thinks Guice is clearly the 2nd best back

C. He watched more Payne tape, was actually doing it on and off during the show and he's settled on Payne as a B level player and would hate it if they took him at 13.

D. He thinks both Vea and Payne aren't much in the pass rushing department.  And he'd see both players as a reach at 13 but could swallow Vea at 13 but he couldn't swallow Payne that early.  He thinks Payne is a late first round talent.

E. He wouldn't mind them trading down and drafting one of the guards, Hernandez or Wynn, he thinks they are both studs.

 

For those that like Settle, he's coming on 106.7 shorty for an interview.

 

 

 

 

  

[Skinsinparadise]

Just noticed Keim did an article on D line.  Between Daniel Jeremiah bouncing Payne into the 2nd round and seeing Payne in the later first in multiple mocks of late.  Casserly also saying today he hears he's viewed as a later first rounder.  Maybe there is something to that smoke.  If so wonder if Payne (maybe like Guice) is on the agenda if they trade down?

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/36311/jonathan-allens-absence-showed-redskins-they-need-more-help-along-the-line

And that’s why it’s important for Washington to find more depth up front. The Redskins are hosting defensive lineman Vita Vea on Wednesday and already have hosted Da’Ron Payne and Tim Settle, two others who could be options along the line. Whether they pick a defensive lineman at No. 13 or wait until after the first round remains to be seen.

But the two areas the Redskins have harped on this offseason have been stopping the run and running the ball better. Improved health would help, but so would more talent. And to draft someone at 13, they’d like that player to have an impact on the passing game as well. Vea would do that more so than Payne, according to multiple scouts. But it only matters how the Redskins project him and there’s reason to believe they feel he can help against the pass. Vea, though, would seem to rate higher.

 

 

J.R.‏ @JReidDraftScout 14h14 hours ago

More

J.R. Retweeted frankie lazz

I'm not as high on Payne as some, but most likely late 1st or early 2nd.

J.R. added,

frankie lazz @frankie_lazz

Replying to @JReidDraftScout

Where do you think daron payne is going, late 20s early 30's? i haven't heard much about him during draft season either

1 reply1 retweet3 likes

 

[skinny21]

Based purely off of what I’ve read, why isn’t Phillips included in the Payne/Vea debate?

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

The main team I see consistently taking Vea before us in mocks are the Raiders at pick #10.  I wonder if Jon has told Jay if that's going to be the pick or not.  I wouldn't be surprised if he has.  Can't hurt to have a brother picking 3 spots ahead of you for a team with similar needs to your own.  If so, that definitely gives us an advantage on draft day as to knowing who might be there at #13.

 

I see Vea also to Miami at 11.  The range for him if mocks are on to something are anywhere from 10-19 -- typically in the earlier part of that range.    Payne it looks like 13-35 -- but most often 20-32

 

A Football Outsiders guy was just on 106.7 whose niche is supposedly D line.  He is a big Hurst guy and thinks he by far is the best D lineman and the one he'd take if he had to go D line at 13.  Likes Vea but wonders about his consistency.  He doesn't see Payne as a serious consideration at 13.  He's not sure about him as a player.  He's a hard read, he plays really well in some games but is "meh" in most games.  He sees him as a bit of a wild card, he likes that he's young so he'd consider rolling the dice in late first-early 2nd.  He likes Settle as a nose as a 2nd round value. He doesn't see that much of a gap between Vea and Settle.  He also likes Fatukasi as a nose, too.  He thinks Bryan's flashes are intriguing and wonders what a good D line coach like Tomsula could do with him. 

[fordranger76]

12 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Based purely off of what I’ve read, why isn’t Phillips included in the Payne/Vea debate?

Isnt 350 pounds and doesn't play for Alabama.

[HigSkin]

I really, really like Darrius Guice.  He's going to be a winner.

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Outlier theory indeed but as a Guice guy, I enjoy reading the hype.  By my count this is the 3rd draft geek type who thinks Guice is the best back in the draft.  I wouldn't go that far myself but I agree with sentiment that the dude is likely to become one of the best backs in the league.

 

https://www.ndtscouting.com/ledyard-2018-nfl-draft-final-positional-rankings-running-back/

1. Derrius Guice, RB, LSU – Early Round 1

All the traits you want in a back – power, elusiveness, vision, contact balance, burst and endurance – are part of Guice’s repertoire, and he’ll run through your face as willingly as he’ll juke you out of your jock. He the best and most schematically diverse running back in this class, and his small body of work as a receiver suggests he can do more damage in that role at the next level. Guice is a structured runner who creates after contact and in space. If he lands behind an offensive line that is among the league’s best an gets the opportunities, his skill set should translate quickly to the NFL.

 

[Warhead36]

Vea not being a great pass rusher doesn't bother me like it seems to bother others. You need run stuffers to win in this league too. You think the Ravens made a mistake taking Haloti Ngata in the 1st round all those years back?

[Hail2theSkins24]

Anyone else find it interesting Ian Rappaport tweeted Vita Vea might not be available at 13? I feel like Ian is as plugged in league wide as anyone. I find it surprising, usually those presumed 2-down guys tend to slide. Maybe teams see pass-rush potential in Vea?

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Vea not being a great pass rusher doesn't bother me like it seems to bother others. You need run stuffers to win in this league too. You think the Ravens made a mistake taking Haloti Ngata in the 1st round all those years back?

 

Cooley's point (he's not alone on this one) wasn't that he was upset that Vea doesn't bring pass rush but that at #13 you don't take a 2 down lineman that high.  You go for an A level player period.  As for Payne he was going through more tape this morning and his opinion went south after watching certain games he didn't look at before, I know he went through the LSU-Alabama tape among them because he referred to it.  Minutes later they ran a segment of which player would you hate the most for them to take at 13 -- Cooley goes Payne. 

 

Among other things he said the team has enough B level players on the team as is, he's not looking to add a B level guy with the 13th pick and that's what he sees Payne being.    As for Vea, he thinks he's a freak and a talent so he's swallow him at 13 easier than Payne who he doesn't think belongs in the pick 13 conversation but he wouldn't pick him at 13 either because he'd want a D lineman who can do it all if you are taking one that early.  Casserly who was on earlier on the show was selling Vea is a guy who can do it all.