The Post Franchise Tag 4pm Deadline Deal Or No Deal Fallout Thread

[PartyPosse]

4 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

idk man Eddie is a mess, weight aside the guy is injured a lot and hasn't really done much since 2014. The Packers did add three backs in the draft not sure they lost much other then name recognition at the position

But they didn't really improve. Unless they think Ty Mon is a legit #1. They went for 3 late in the draft in hoping to find a diamond in the rough, but that's not necessarily improving your team so much as reaching for the stars and hoping. 

[bobandweave]

To support my belief about Perine stated above I present you guys

 

https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/collegesports/2017/04/17/oklahoma-nfl-draft-profile-rb-samaje-perine-become-solid-short-yardage-option

 

Some comments about the guy

 

Bleacher Report's Matt Miller predicts Perine to be selected by Carolina with the 72nd overall pick, a team which has utilized the talents of a similarly-built Mike Tolbert in short-yardage situations for the last five seasons.

 

Russell Brown, NFL Mocks: "On some runs, he shows aggressiveness by lowering his shoulder,  but no matter what, he's always falling forward and trying to get positive yardage. That's just something you can't teach a player."

 

Daniel Stebbens, Bolts From the Blue: "The first thing that jumped out at me about him was how rarely he would be phased by contact up high, he simply brushes it off like some minor inconvenience."

 

If Perine turns out to be a great short yardage weapon which I think he could do he will undoubtedly improve the RB group. I think people are expecting him to just come in and take the job from Kelley and I don't see that happening. More first downs will equal more snap opportunities and I'm sure Perine will get his share unless he screws up but this is a RBBC to me and if you can get three guys who do one thing really well and mix them together to Frankenstein yourself a rushing attack I think that's what they will do

[bobandweave]

5 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

But they didn't really improve. Unless they think Ty Mon is a legit #1. They went for 3 late in the draft in hoping to find a diamond in the rough, but that's not necessarily improving your team so much as reaching for the stars and hoping. 

 

I don't think Ty is a legit #1 and them drafting three guys to me said to the world they didn't believe that either but I am saying I have serious doubts Eddie is a #1 today. He's just a known player coming out of the worst NFL draft the past decade. I don't think he set the bar as high as we perceive him to have done. Can one of those three equal or surpass Eddie Lacy stats from 2016 - 360 rushing yards, 0 TDs? I think so but time will tell

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, purbeast said:

I agree, but when we're talking about "playing the same/better/worse" you have to make assumptions.  KC could play better than last year and they could only win 4 games.  He could play worse than last year and they could win 16.  We don't know.

 

Which is why we play the games rather than using computer simulations or some writers 'stick a pin on a number' method. Too many moving parts to project much for the vast majority of teams. Injuries are a massively important variable as well.

50 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

According to Football Outsiders he played the single hardest schedule last year of every QB in the league and still had a winning record. #1 in 2016 DVOA schedule. That's why I have no idea why anyone thinks the man has reached his ceiling at this point. There is no where to go but easier for him and he's shown he can beat the easier opponents. Unless you think he's going to be playing the #1 hardest schedule again this year. If he is and goes nuts all any team in the league has to do is structure a contract like

 

I'm unclear why you quoted my post ahead of this. None of it has anything to do with my post which was about the futility of projecting won lost based on just looking at what we have done in isolation.

[bobandweave]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

I'm unclear why you quoted my post ahead of this. None of it has anything to do with my post which was about the futility of projecting won lost based on just looking at what we have done in isolation.

 

Because you said

 

Quote

Our schedule is different - harder out of Division schedule this year

 

I just said its harder to be a tougher schedule then the toughest schedule in the league which he played in last year according to Football Outsiders.

 

I get what your saying completely, and your right and I agree with you

 

A teams riding high on a Monday morning with expectations of playoff games ahead only to find itself shot down on Tuesday morning thinking the season is over with one injury. Cowboys thought that last year when Romo went down. New York minute everything changes. Or did it?

 

Think back to the 83 Superbowl, the Redskins favorites to win one day and the next losing the game by nearly 30 points because they were partying too hard the night before. Or the past Superbowl. Atlanta had a 98% likely chance to win the game in the second half only to find a way to grab a hold of defeat from the jaws of victory. Even in the greatest games things don't go the way we think they would

 

Or the reverse, after one meaningless game played the Rams thought their season was over. They thought after they lost the QB they were completely done for. Only to play the season with a complete unknown former grocery bagger who led them to a Championship.

 

That's why this is the best sport in the world to me. Never know what's gonna happen

[MartinC]

18 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

Because you said

 

 

I just said its harder to be a tougher schedule then the toughest schedule in the league which he played in last year according to Football Outsiders.

 

I know this is hard for people to get - and I accept this is in a thread about Cousins - but wins and losses are a team stat not a QB stat. My post was about the Redskins won/loss record not Kirk Cousins. QB play is a big part of won loss but its far from the only thing. I was not making any specific point about Kirk Cousins.

 

So your point is that its harder for the Redskins to play a tougher schedule than they did last year. A fair point. But given we play in the toughest division in football and are playing a much harder (on paper) out of division schedule this year my opinion is we may well end doing just that.

 

Totally agree with the rest of your post. There are too many variable to predict the won loss for anyone.

[bobandweave]

For the record I don't think QBs are the sole reason teams win and lose and I don't think you can say wins and losses are all indicative of greatness either. I know there are lots of reasons why teams win and teams lose and just pointed out a couple. I wasn't implying that was what you were saying if I did by accident I'm sorry.

 

Team wins I hold in context.

 

Example to me it's way more impressive seeing Sam Bradford, a guy tossed aside to another team given just a week to review a teams playbook and get ready to lead a team he had no clue about having a winning season more so then a guy like Peyton Manning winning a super bowl in a year where he could barely throw the ball 15 yards by that point and did nothing to get them that win (nothing against Payton hes a HOFer no doubt but his last five career NFL games he threw an average of 128 passing yards a game and only 141 passing yards in the Superbowl).

 

One guy went 8-8. the other guy won the Championship. To me being a football nut I actually think what Bradford did was more impressive.

 

I don't think we can isolate wins as meaningless or all that meaningful because they are a team stat. To me the impressive thing about the 2000 Ravens wasn't so much they won the Superbowl, it was the fact they played and won 5 straight games without the QB throwing a single TD pass. That's impressive and those wins weren't on the QB that for sure lol. Context is key

 

 

[Rattlesnake88]

8 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

a guy like Peyton Manning winning a super bowl in a year where he could barely throw the ball 15 yards by that point and did nothing to get them that win (nothing against Payton hes a HOFer no doubt but his last five career NFL games he threw an average of 128 passing yards a game and only 141 passing yards in the Superbowl).

Not to derail or hijack. But have you ever thought about how much irony there was to that season for Peyton Manning?

 

I mean he may be the greatest qb at all time at carrying flawed teams to elite seasons. Yet he only one two super bowls and one being at the twilight of his career being carried by the other 51 guys. Was actually poetic until he started plugging Budweiser like an asshole.

[MartinC]

53 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

Context is key

 

100%.

[TouchdownSkin]

On 7/17/2017 at 5:12 PM, SlkyCaramel said:

SO NOBODY IS GOING TO SAY A WORD ABOUT THE FACT THAT KIRK DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO COUNTEROFFER?

 

This is ridiculous. Have you guys never negotiated?  The first offer is usually LOW. The Skins aren't dumb. They knew that if Kirk countered he would likely be HIGH and they would probably be meeting in the middle.  That can't happen if Kirk doesn't counter nor respond. 

 

How is Bruce wrong here? Because he was transparent and flat out told yall what happened which is what people were crying for all during the Scott debacle? You wanted transparency then, so he decides to give it to you now and you're still mad?

 

This is where I am.

 

Honestly, if Cousins doesn't want to be a Redskin, I hope he moves along next season.

[purbeast]

There's no point to respond to an offer that you don't even consider serious.  And offering a joke contract does nothing but hurt the whole negotiation.

 

What if Bruce Allen offered him $100k/yr?  How should he respond to that?  Sure that's extreme, but in KC's eyes (and most NFL experts) the offer that was made was basically that - a joke of an offer, and it warranted no response.

 

If Bruce Allen really wanted to get a deal done, he would have realized this very quickly that he wasn't getting a response, and that means he has to up the team's offer to him to get things moving along.  Clearly the Redskins had no intent on ever signing him to a long term deal, which is the most disheartening thing I've taken from all of this. 

 

You also have to remember that during the negotiations, Kirk was already going to receive $24 million for 1 year worth of work.  He had a pretty solid fallback plan had no LTD happened.  

 

No response = $24 million for 1 year of work.

[SkinsFTW]

4 hours ago, TouchdownSkin said:

 

This is where I am.

 

Honestly, if Cousins doesn't want to be a Redskin, I hope he moves along next season.

 

I don't believe that he's ever said that he doesn't want to be a Redskin. Let me know, find the quote.

 

If you already own a pretty nice car and a car dealership keeps calling your house offering you a new "better" one that doesn't do anything more for you than the one you already have and will cost you a bunch of money the next 5-6 years do you just jump on it anyway to take one for the team? Highly doubtful.

[clskinsfan]

4 hours ago, purbeast said:

There's no point to respond to an offer that you don't even consider serious.  And offering a joke contract does nothing but hurt the whole negotiation.

 

Again. Most money EVER OFFERED GUARANTEED at signing is a joke offer? Man. I need you guys to negotiate my salary for me.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Again. Most money EVER OFFERED GUARANTEED at signing is a joke offer? Man. I need you guys to negotiate my salary for me.

UNPRECEDENTED SITUATION CAUSED BY BRUCE ALLEN.

 

Meanwhile, the Jags just made their center that I've never heard of the highest paid center in league history.  I reckon he's nowhere near the best at his position, he's just the latest guy to get a deal.

 

I figure at some point if I keep bringing these points home to you guys, you'll eventually acknowledge the state of contracts in the NFL and quit regurgitating Brucey's PR.

[Tay]

What's everyone's thoughts on the MMQB 400. Andy Benoit put together a list of the top 400 players in the NFL based on film study and (who you would want on your team this upcoming year). Trent was #2 OT, Moses #6 RT, Scherff #6 OG, Norman #7 CB, etc.....

 

The ranking that I believe would stand out the most to us Redskins fans is Cousins #19 QB ranking. On Grant and Danny today, he mentioned that this film study/ rank of ability is what makes the contract negotiation so difficult.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

10 minutes ago, Tay said:

 

The ranking that I believe would stand out the most to us Redskins fans is Cousins #19 QB ranking. On Grant and Danny today, he mentioned that this film study/ rank of ability is what makes the contract negotiation so difficult.

Did this fool really say that his ranking of ability makes contract negotiations difficult?  There's a reason he's writing for MMQB and not working in a front office.

[Tsailand]

20 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Most money EVER OFFERED GUARANTEED at signing

 

That's only if you count the $24M for 2017.  Which you shouldn't because he already has it.

[clskinsfan]

24 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I figure at some point if I keep bringing these points home to you guys, you'll eventually acknowledge the state of contracts in the NFL and quit regurgitating Brucey's PR.

 

How is the truth PR? The most ever is the most ever. It is not a PR line. Cousins turned down a 48 millon dollar injury guarantee. That is the TRUTH not just some crap someone threw out there.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

14 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

How is the truth PR? The most ever is the most ever. It is not a PR line. Cousins turned down a 48 millon dollar injury guarantee. That is the TRUTH not just some crap someone threw out there.

Bruce wrote that PR specifically for people like you to read it and get hung up on 'highest guarantee' just like you can't rationalize anything in relation to titles like ' highest paid player'.  There is much more to the scenario than what he sold you.  Many of us have broken down the contract and what it really was numerous times, in different ways, coupled with articles and quotes written or said by folks that know a lot more about it than any of us do.  I take it you just ignore that stuff.

 

 

[purbeast]

1 hour ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Again. Most money EVER OFFERED GUARANTEED at signing is a joke offer? Man. I need you guys to negotiate my salary for me.

You do realize that the "most money ever guaranteed" included the $24 million that he was already going to make regardless of the LTD contract discussions .... right?

[Rufus T Firefly]

14 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Again. Most money EVER OFFERED GUARANTEED at signing is a joke offer? Man. I need you guys to negotiate my salary for me.

Did you taste that spin before you swallowed it whole?

[bowhunter]

Can 2018 contract "talks" begin now? ie can Gruden and Allen pull KC into their office and say "Look Kurt Kirk, neither of us want to be wondering where we will be in 2018 and beyond. We want you here and want you to be able to have a solid plan for your future. If at seasons end we offer you $24m a year for 5 years, fully guaranteed for 3 years, would you sign it so that we can all build our team together?"

   I feel that KC is a man of his word, so if he agreed to such a conversation, would it be against league rules?  

[clskinsfan]

17 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I take it you just ignore that stuff.

 

 

And I just take it that you ignore there is a significant part of the fanbase and media who think Kirk isnt worth that money at this point. Lets see how this season plays out. But to insinuate that the offer the Redskins made was a joke is simply wrong. Cousins not only turned down a 48 million dollar injury guarantee. but he didnt even bother to counter offer.

16 hours ago, purbeast said:

You do realize that the "most money ever guaranteed" included the $24 million that he was already going to make regardless of the LTD contract discussions .... right?

It was a starting offer that would have made Cousins the second highest paid player in the league at the time.  MOST players that want to stay with a team would counter that offer.

 

5 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Did you taste that spin before you swallowed it whole?

Again. I dont know how it's spin when it's the truth.

[purbeast]

4 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

It was a starting offer that would have made Cousins the second highest paid player in the league at the time.  MOST players that want to stay with a team would counter that offer.

But regardless of working out a LTD, he IS staying with the team because he's ALREADY on a $24 million dollar 1 year contract.  And on top of that, Bruce Allen already said that the tag is in play next season.  

 

This is completely different than him being a free agent on the market and getting these offers.  He already has (somewhat) security in that he has a job and already basically has an offer from the Redskins for next year since Bruce already played his hand talking about the tag for next year being in play.

 

And you talk about "MOST players that want to stay with a team would counter that offer."  Well MOST teams that have a franchise quality quarterback on the roster already would lock the QB up long term and do whatever it takes to do so.  I'd actually say EVERY OTHER TEAM would do that.  But this is the Redskins, and NOTHING is normal about this franchise.  It's the FO's own fault they are in this first-of-its-kind situation, not Kirk's.  Remember, they offered the tag, 2 years in a row.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Did a significant part of the fans and media think Ryan Kerrigan was worthy of being the top paid defensive player?  Do they think the Jags center that just became the highest paid center ever is the best center in the NFL?

 

Its fluff and clickbait that irrational folks care a lot about.

 

Most folks that understand the dynamics of the salary cap, the trends and forecasting of NFL contracts, and how important having a competent QB is to having success don't give a rats ass about that crap.

 

But more than anything what is so laughable about the folks guzzling Bruce's kool aid about this is that they don't think he's worthy of top tier money but have no issue paying top tier money under the franchise tag.