The Post Franchise Tag 4pm Deadline Deal Or No Deal Fallout Thread

[Califan007 The Constipated]

9 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

Wait, I'm confused here. So it doesn't matter if, say, the 49ers front load the contract for the first year?

 

That's what I'm getting from @Califan007's post. I was under the assumption that the rule against poison pills were more pointed at some ridiculous terms than having to do with the actual yearly structure of the contract. 

 

But what I'm gathering here is we can still match and not actually pay that exact amount of guaranteed money they offered in the first year, but spread it around as we see fit so long as the numbers are the same on the aggregate? 

 

That's actually news to me. Cooley would've been right, I guess. And it does make the transition tag an ever-so-slightly more appealing option. 

 

Don't get me wrong, by "appealing" I mean disgusting incompetence that is minimally mitigated, because no matter how this ends we paid way more than we ever should've with just even remotely better foresight. And when I say "paid way more", I'm not just talking about allocated cap space. This incompetence goes deep. 

 

Or can the Niners front load the crap out of this thing and screw us? 

 

From what I've read, we'd have to match the 49ers' guaranteed amount, signing bonus and overall contract amount, things like that. If they guarantee him $90M, we have to as well. If they give him a $90M salary for 2018, we do not have to match that as long as we are still giving him $90M in guarantees (who the hell would do that, anyway lol). If they give him a $90M signing bonus, I think the Skins could actually take it to arbitration under the belief that the only reason the 49ers are doing so is to make it damn near impossible for the Skins to match, so it shouldn't be considered part of the Principle Terms.

 

However, If the 49ers put in their offer sheet that Cousins can void the contract after 2 seasons, then nothing the Skins can do other than accept those terms or pass on signing Kirk. Teams can still do stuff to make it less likely that the Skins will match the offer, but none of this "$89M this year, $1M next year salaries" stuff...that would tilt the field heavily in the direction of big market teams and effectively make the transition tag useless...and the NFL would never accept that, and I'm guessing an arbitrator wouldn't either (although arbitrators can't void the contract but they can definitely effect whether or not it gets approved).

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 hour ago, thesubmittedone said:

Or can the Niners front load the crap out of this thing and screw us? 

Yes, they can. Since nothing else is working, consider what people are suggesting in these  two ways:

 

1. That a player can sign a contract and a team could then change the terms of that contract unilaterally.

 

2. That, in a league where most salaries are not guaranteed, a contract where you could be cut  after making 50 mil in year 1 vs after making 10 mil in year 1 could be considered "the same".

 

Just use some common sense- do you think the CBA would allow either of those things? Come on, people.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

23 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Yes, they can. Since nothing else is working, consider what people are suggesting in these  two ways:

 

1. That a player can sign a contract and a team could then change the terms of that contract unilaterally.

 

2. That, in a league where most salaries are not guaranteed, a contract where you could be cut  after making 50 mil in year 1 vs after making 10 mil in year 1 could be considered "the same".

 

Just use some common sense- do you think the CBA would allow either of those things? Come on, people.

 

That's where guaranteed money comes in...if both teams guarantee Cousins $80M, it doesn't matter what he makes in that first year as a salary if he gets cut after one year. He's not getting $80M on top of the $50M in your scenario. Usually you have the signing bonus and guaranteed salary that will equal the guaranteed amount (roster bonus and other stuff like that there gets considered as well, of course).

 

Think of a contract that is 5 yr/$120M with $80M guaranteed. If the team pays him $50M the first year and cut him after that year, he's not gonna get $80M on top of that. That would mean he would be making $130M, which is more than the actual contract. And the team that pays him $10M isn't gonna owe the player $80M on top of that $10M, either, nor will he only be paid $10M. He'll walk away with $80M either way.

[TSO]

@Rufus T Firefly I'll just take what @Califan007 posted as the explanation I needed since your tone is only pissing me off and making it impossible for me to have any desire to comprehend your points. 

 

I agree with where you're going with this in general, though, that no matter what it's a bad situation and should be viewed as such. Just chill with the condescension. Goodness. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

For the record, here's the section of the CBA that covers Principle Terms:

 

Principal Terms. For the purposes of this Article (and Article 10), the Principal Terms of an Offer Sheet shall include only:

(i) Salary, which shall consist only of (a) the fixed and specified dollar amounts the New Club will pay, guarantee or lend to the Restricted Free Agent and/or his designees (currently and/or as deferred compensation in specified installments on specified dates) in consideration for his services as a football player under the Player Contract (i.e., signing bonus, Paragraph 5 Salary, and reporting and roster bonuses); and (b) Salary that is variable and/or is subject to calculation only upon the following bases: (1) based upon the performance of the Club extending the Offer Sheet (only those incentives which are “likely to be earned” by the player if he enters into a Player Contract with the New Club, pursuant to Subsection (c) above, must be matched by the Prior Club for the purpose of exercising a Right of First Refusal, and such incentives may not exceed 15% of the Salary in the Offer Sheet); and (2) League honors listed in Exhibit C to Article 13; and

(ii) Any modifications of and additions to the terms contained in the NFL Player Contract requested by the Restricted Free Agent and acceptable to the New Club, that relate to non-compensation terms (including guarantees, no-cut, and no-trade provisions) of the Restricted Free Agent’s employment as a football player (which shall be evidenced either by a copy of the NFL Player Contract, marked to show changes, or by a written brief summary contained in or attached to the Offer Sheet).

(iii) Notwithstanding Subsections (i) and (ii) above, no Offer Sheet may con-tain a Principal Term that would create rights or obligations for the Old Club that differ in any way (including but not limited to the amount of compensation that would be paid, the circumstances in which compensation would be guaranteed, or the circumstances in which other contractual rights would or would not vest) from the rights or obligations that such Principal Term would create for the Club extending the Offer Sheet (i.e., no “poison pills”).

 

***********

 

The part in bold ("currently and/or as deferred compensation in specified installments on specified dates"), I believe the specific dates only refers to deferred compensation...not to current payments. Specific dollar amounts on specific dates for deferred compensation only.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

In my opinion, the best way for a team to sabotage (effectively) the Skins would be to offer Cousins a LTD with the entire amount guaranteed. No outlandish signing bonuses, wacky 1st year salary or poison pill-type language needed. If the 49ers basically say "We have zero doubt that Cousins will be with us the next 5 years and aren't worried about career-ending injuries", they can set that precedent. Other GMs and owners will be pissed off at them, of course lol...but the Skins have shown so far that they aren't one million percent "in" on Cousins. A team making Kirk an offer like that would force their hand to go all in on him.

[goskins10]

4 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

From what I've read, we'd have to match the 49ers' guaranteed amount, signing bonus and overall contract amount, things like that. If they guarantee him $90M, we have to as well. If they give him a $90M salary for 2018, we do not have to match that as long as we are still giving him $90M in guarantees (who the hell would do that, anyway lol). If they give him a $90M signing bonus, I think the Skins could actually take it to arbitration under the belief that the only reason the 49ers are doing so is to make it damn near impossible for the Skins to match, so it shouldn't be considered part of the Principle Terms.

 

However, If the 49ers put in their offer sheet that Cousins can void the contract after 2 seasons, then nothing the Skins can do other than accept those terms or pass on signing Kirk. Teams can still do stuff to make it less likely that the Skins will match the offer, but none of this "$89M this year, $1M next year salaries" stuff...that would tilt the field heavily in the direction of big market teams and effectively make the transition tag useless...and the NFL would never accept that, and I'm guessing an arbitrator wouldn't either (although arbitrators can't void the contract but they can definitely effect whether or not it gets approved).

 

I agree with what you are saying. Just adding a little to it. All contracts have to be reviewed by the league. The league can deny the contract. The language gives the league enough latitude to pretty much decline any contract - not that they would. But they will return lopsided contracts. Since the whole poison pill thing they look at these contracts more critically. It might be interesting to see what happens if people put the league to the test on a oddly structured contract.

 

Having said that, If someone offers some whacked out contract and the league and Kirk accept it, so be it. But I think people are buying into the fear factor here. Don't get me wrong, by not signing Kirk to a LTD this year, BA has screwed the pooch in a big way. But at this point it is what it is. Can't change that. Looking at things rationally no team is going to change the entire structure of contracts for one player. These owners stick together, much better than the players. It's why they keep getting these CBAs that are heavily skewed to the owner side of things despite this being a player driven product.

 

At this point, I am ready to just focus on this year. It may be the last for a while that we have a legitimate chance to be good. If this thing implodes it will be a while before it gets better, if it even ever does. I would look to see BA get fired but as someone else said there are no guarantees we can get anyone competent.

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

I agree with what you are saying. Just adding a little to it. All contracts have to be reviewed by the league. The league can deny the contract. The language gives the league enough latitude to pretty much decline any contract - not that they would. But they will return lopsided contracts. Since the whole poison pill thing they look at these contracts more critically. It might be interesting to see what happens if people put the league to the test on a oddly structured contract.

 

Having said that, If someone offers some whacked out contract and the league and Kirk accept it, so be it. But I think people are buying into the fear factor here. Don't get me wrong, by not signing Kirk to a LTD this year, BA has screwed the pooch in a big way. But at this point it is what it is. Can't change that. Looking at things rationally no team is going to change the entire structure of contracts for one player. These owners stick together, much better than the players. It's why they keep getting these CBAs that are heavily skewed to the owner side of things despite this being a player driven product.

 

 

Absolutely, especially the parts in bold. Skins fans should know as well as anyone what the league can and will do if they feel someone is gaining an "unfair competitive advantage" lol...and a fear factor is definitely playing a role in things--along with a disdain for Allen and an irritation in not signing Cousins (the worse the resulting scenario of not signing Cousins, the bigger the buffoon Allen appears to be), and just not really knowing what teams can and cannot do --although in all fairness it IS a bit convoluted lol. I mean, when Cooley can have guys like Schefter and Keim tell him stuff that's absolutely NOT true, there's a general lack of knowledge out there (me included lol...had to go read the actual CBA to get some clarity, and I'm still not 100% positive I got it all right).

[Est.1974]

The best way for the 49ers to drop us in it would be a fully gtd short term deal. Something like 2 years 75-80mil. They easily put that though their cap. We then have to match by paying way over the odds, plus make other roster moves, or have no FA activity, to accommodate such a contract.

 

IF Kirk really wants to go there he takes the short term deal with the pre agreed second contract from the 49ers already drafted in his agents locker.

 

 

[theTruthTeller]

9 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Yes, they can. Since nothing else is working, consider what people are suggesting in these  two ways:

 

1. That a player can sign a contract and a team could then change the terms of that contract unilaterally.

 

2. That, in a league where most salaries are not guaranteed, a contract where you could be cut  after making 50 mil in year 1 vs after making 10 mil in year 1 could be considered "the same".

 

Just use some common sense- do you think the CBA would allow either of those things? Come on, people.

People are dangling by the thin, rapidly fraying thread that the FO knows what it's doing and that the worst case scenario is paying Cousins $28M next year, even if another team makes an offer they can't match.  I think its best just to let them hold on to these hopes.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

[Veryoldschool]

44 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said:

People are dangling by the thin, rapidly fraying thread that the FO knows what it's doing and that the worst case scenario is paying Cousins $28M next year, even if another team makes an offer they can't match.  I think its best just to let them hold on to these hopes.

You might be right, since we have a season to look forward to and thinking about Cousins going to better franchise at the end of it will put a tamper on things.  But I think the Skins were nuts not to put a Carr type deal with a more generous guarantee in front Cousins when Oakland inked the deal and said to Kirk, now that the market has been set we are ready to meet it since we want you for the next 10 years.  A generous offer then was perhaps last chance of concluding a LTD with Cousins.  Instead Snyder sat on his FU low ball offer.  Snyder isn't going to figure it out Cousins is special until he's gone.

[zCommander]

4 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

You might be right, since we have a season to look forward to and thinking about Cousins going to better franchise at the end of it will put a tamper on things.  But I think the Skins were nuts not to put a Carr type deal with a more generous guarantee in front Cousins when Oakland inked the deal and said to Kirk, now that the market has been set we are ready to meet it since we want you for the next 10 years.  A generous offer then was perhaps last chance of concluding a LTD with Cousins.  Instead Snyder sat on his FU low ball offer.  Snyder isn't going to figure it out Cousins is special until he's gone.

 

BA said they gave Kirk an offer. BA just can't quite damn figure out why the hell he didn't sign or gave him a counter offer. 

[markmills67]

I've stayed away from this cousin's thread since deadline day, I needed time to come to terms with how Allen has totally screwed this up, I actually believe this year not just  is Cousin's a sitting duck, but the 2017/18 season of the Redskins is to. For me there is absolutely no way that Cousin's is a Washington Redskin next year, so what we are left with is Cousin's with a better Defense could lead us to between 9 and 11 wins in my opinion. Which then leaves us with a 1st round draft pick in 2018 of between 18 to 24, so then we have in my opinion got no cousins and also no top 5 drop pick to replace him with. Allen should have taken what he could for him before or even after the draft. In my view the 24m cap figure for Cousin's is gone now and I would take the hit like we did for Haynesworth and start McCoy. I have never wanted the Redskins to lose a game but for this season only a 12 defeat season will not hurt me like it should do, because the more games we win will put our Redskins back for 3 or more years. Allen has no forsight as to what will happen after this season, it's as though it's super bowl or bust, but for me it's 10 wins this year and the Redskins will be back to square one. 

 

HTTR 

[WordM]

My take, for whatever it is worth.

 

Kirk has said that he doesn't mind playing on a one year deal.

The Redskins will Transition tag him.

Kirk will sign the Transition tag and then NOT shop for offers from other team.

He will play for the Redskins in 2018 on the $28M Transition tag.

 

Why?

He will have made $72M, fully guaranteed over three years; 2016, ‘17 & ‘18.

The cost of an NFL starting quarterback only goes up. Every year. Stafford and Rodgers are going to increase the market value for QBs. 

Kirk can play 2018 for $28M and then go to the open market as a true unrestricted free agent, without having to be concerned with a matching offer. He likely will get an offer equal to or greater than whatever offer he can get next year and already have $72M in the bank.

Strictly financially, this course of action makes the most sense.

 

[skins island connection]

1 hour ago, markmills67 said:

I've stayed away from this cousin's thread since deadline day, I needed time to come to terms with how Allen has totally screwed this up, I actually believe this year not just  is Cousin's a sitting duck, but the 2017/18 season of the Redskins is to. For me there is absolutely no way that Cousin's is a Washington Redskin next year, so what we are left with is Cousin's with a better Defense could lead us to between 9 and 11 wins in my opinion. Which then leaves us with a 1st round draft pick in 2018 of between 18 to 24, so then we have in my opinion got no cousins and also no top 5 drop pick to replace him with. Allen should have taken what he could for him before or even after the draft. In my view the 24m cap figure for Cousin's is gone now and I would take the hit like we did for Haynesworth and start McCoy. I have never wanted the Redskins to lose a game but for this season only a 12 defeat season will not hurt me like it should do, because the more games we win will put our Redskins back for 3 or more years. Allen has no forsight as to what will happen after this season, it's as though it's super bowl or bust, but for me it's 10 wins this year and the Redskins will be back to square one. 

 

HTTR 

 

 Allen has a tendency to be reluctant to pay top money for a player he considers 'unproven'; a Brady, or Rodgers type player is who he would give big money to, but even then I'd bet that if he were the GM in New England, he would piss off a lot if not all the fans by trying to negotiate a smaller offer. Its what he does; too bad he sucks at his job.

He ticked off a lot of Bucs fans as well as Raider fans, by doing the same thing.

 

Brucie wants to be the 'god' of everything football-wise with the organization.  He believes he knows more than the scouts do, he wants the final say in draft picks, and frowns upon anyone who doesn't 'respect the name Allen'. Its more or less an ego trip, unknowingly. Maybe he's so into himself that he doesn't grasp the idea that he doesn't know everything, and that he is wrong, quite a bit obviously. Maybe he unknowingly looks down on others as being subordinate.

But one thing is for sure, is he has really screwed this up for this team, and it will cost us one way or another. If it weren't for the Grudens, he probably wouldn't have a job right now; maybe he has some suggestive photos of one of the boys in a precarious situation, I dunno, but he's followed them through Oakland, Tampa Bay, and now Washington, and he's messed up every place he's been to.

 

Some are blaming Snyder, but he's supposedly backed away and let the others handle the operations, from what I understand. Maybe if Snyder told them to get him signed last year we wouldn't be in this mess, but when you have Bruce Allen whispering in his ear the whole time, he's probably as confused as we are as to why KC isn't signed.

Besides, when the whole Redskins name change thing was on the front burner, Snyder calmly stood his ground, refused to change the name, and held steadfast until we won, and that does IMO deserve huge props.

[skins island connection]

16 minutes ago, WordM said:

My take, for whatever it is worth.

 

Kirk has said that he doesn't mind playing on a one year deal.

The Redskins will Transition tag him.

Kirk will sign the Transition tag and then NOT shop for offers from other team.

He will play for the Redskins in 2018 on the $28M Transition tag.

 

Why?

He will have made $72M, fully guaranteed over three years; 2016, ‘17 & ‘18.

The cost of an NFL starting quarterback only goes up. Every year. Stafford and Rodgers are going to increase the market value for QBs. 

Kirk can play 2018 for $28M and then go to the open market as a true unrestricted free agent, without having to be concerned with a matching offer. He likely will get an offer equal to or greater than whatever offer he can get next year and already have $72M in the bank.

Strictly financially, this course of action makes the most sense.

 

 

 While this may be true, he will still have to weigh the options of possibly signing with a team with a poor o-line, poor WR corp, or poor coaching, which will all have a huge effect on his longevity in the NFL. When you look at the league, there are not many teams in need of a QB. Sure, there are teams with QBs who may not be as good as Cousins, but are those teams gonna take a chance and sit their QB for Cousins? That's just gonna piss off those QBs and they will look elsewhere.

 

A lot depends on how Cousins plays this season. If he plays like he's been playing, then that contract will get bigger; if he doesn't play very well, then it becomes a real staring contest; his agent will not likely budge, and the FO will be really reluctant to pay top dollar for a QB who dropped off in production.

[Tsailand]

1 hour ago, WordM said:

The Redskins will Transition tag him.

Kirk will sign the Transition tag and then NOT shop for offers from other team.

He will play for the Redskins in 2018 on the $28M Transition tag.

 

He will shop around.  It would be irresponsible for his agent to do anything else.

 

At the very least, he will sign a one-year offer sheet from the 49ers for $30M+.  If we match it, he just got a little bit of extra cash for free.  If we don't match it, he's back with his buddy Kyle and they can hammer out a long term deal.

 

 

45 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

 Allen has a tendency to be reluctant to pay top money for a player he considers 'unproven';

 

But he spent four high draft picks on an unproven running QB.

[Veryoldschool]

16 hours ago, markmills67 said:

I've stayed away from this cousin's thread since deadline day, I needed time to come to terms with how Allen has totally screwed this up, I actually believe this year not just  is Cousin's a sitting duck, but the 2017/18 season of the Redskins is to. For me there is absolutely no way that Cousin's is a Washington Redskin next year, so what we are left with is Cousin's with a better Defense could lead us to between 9 and 11 wins in my opinion. Which then leaves us with a 1st round draft pick in 2018 of between 18 to 24, so then we have in my opinion got no cousins and also no top 5 drop pick to replace him with. Allen should have taken what he could for him before or even after the draft. In my view the 24m cap figure for Cousin's is gone now and I would take the hit like we did for Haynesworth and start McCoy. I have never wanted the Redskins to lose a game but for this season only a 12 defeat season will not hurt me like it should do, because the more games we win will put our Redskins back for 3 or more years. Allen has no forsight as to what will happen after this season, it's as though it's super bowl or bust, but for me it's 10 wins this year and the Redskins will be back to square one. 

 

HTTR 

 

The Skins will pick one of several QBs that don't workout where ever they pick, you can bank on it.  Any franchise that doesn't recognize the talents of a young pro bowler on their own roster is too clueless to spot the kid that can excel running a pro offense in the NFL.  They will probably repeat the mistake 2012 and pick a guy running a high school spread offense in college that will fail miserably in the NFL.  That is what losers do, follow the same path to their next FU.

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

They will probably repeat the mistake 2012 and pick a guy running a high school spread offense in college that will fail miserably in the NFL.  That is what losers do, follow the same path to their next FU.

 

If they let Kirk go, my bet is on Colt as opposed to a new one they draft.  He plays mediocre and he gets hurt (he's always been injury prone) and they go 5-11. I was listening just now to Michael Phillips, I was listening on and off.  If I heard him right his theory is they transition tag him (or maybe he said let him go to FA but I heard him talk about bidding against other teams) and then when a team offers Kirk a big contract the FO won't match and they will get the support from the fan base because we'd agree that the price was too high so let that team have him.  If so, I really really doubt that the fan base has the FO's back if it goes down that way. I know I won't.

 

Good mic'd up Kirk stuff for those interested, there was 4 parts to it.  This one, the 2nd part, I found amusing because it included Kirk reading a sign aloud from a fan saying his name is Kirk not Kurt.

http://www.redskins.com/media-gallery/videos/Training_Camp_Wired_Up_Kirk_Cousins_Part_2/1a369f6e-7824-416a-8b25-f9184f2b565b

 

[theTruthTeller]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

...If I heard him right his theory is they transition tag him (or maybe he said let him go to FA but I heard him talk about bidding against other teams) and then when a team offers Kirk a big contract the FO won't match and they will get the support from the fan base because we'd agree that the price was too high so let that team have him.  If so, I really really doubt that the fan base has the FO's back if it goes down that way. I know I won't.

...

 

It's my understanding that if you transition tag a player and fail to match the offer sheet, you get no compensatory pick for losing the tagged FA.  Not that a 3rd rounder is fair compensation, but it's something.

[RedBeast]

I think this thread is going to go on much longer than the Hatfield and McCoys Feud

[Veryoldschool]

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If they let Kirk go, my bet is on Colt as opposed to a new one they draft.  He plays mediocre and he gets hurt (he's always been injury prone) and they go 5-11. I was listening just now to Michael Phillips, I was listening on and off.  If I heard him right his theory is they transition tag him (or maybe he said let him go to FA but I heard him talk about bidding against other teams) and then when a team offers Kirk a big contract the FO won't match and they will get the support from the fan base because we'd agree that the price was too high so let that team have him.  If so, I really really doubt that the fan base has the FO's back if it goes down that way. I know I won't.

 

Good mic'd up Kirk stuff for those interested, there was 4 parts to it.  This one, the 2nd part, I found amusing because it included Kirk reading a sign aloud from a fan saying his name is Kirk not Kurt.

http://www.redskins.com/media-gallery/videos/Training_Camp_Wired_Up_Kirk_Cousins_Part_2/1a369f6e-7824-416a-8b25-f9184f2b565b

 

 

I certainly hope I am wrong and they find a way to keep Cousins long term but if they lose him they would be smart to try Colt or Sudfeld rather than picking the wrong guy high in the draft.  You just KNOW they would mess up a QB pick.  For any team drafting a guy that turns out to really good is a long shot for the FU inclined Skins it is impossible.

 

I'm bailing on the Skins if Kirk goes but if Kirk goes to the Steeler's I could see myself adopting them.  I've admired them for about 50 years so why not.  If Cousins goes to the Rams or 49er's I just may forget about the NFL.  I got my college team and that is pretty well run so I'll have Saturdays anyways. 

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

I certainly hope I am wrong and they find a way to keep Cousins long term but if they lose him they would be smart to try Colt or Sudfeld rather than picking the wrong guy high in the draft.  You just KNOW they would mess up a QB pick.  For any team drafting a guy that turns out to really good a long shot for the FU inclined Skins it is impossible.

 

I'm bailing on the Skins if Kirk goes but if Kirk goes to the Steeler's I could see myself adopting them.  I've admired them for about 50 years so why not.  If Skins goes to the Rams or 49er's I just may forget about the NFL.  I got my college team and that is pretty well run so I'll have Saturdays anyways. 

 

My gut is the one shot at it working out is they make the playoffs and win a playoff game and the FO realizes they'd look even dumber than they do now to let Kirk go.   My gut is worse case we got one more year with Kirk in 2018 and they'd franchise him.

 

I share your level of frustration.   Not to the degree that I'd bail on the team but I totally get your frustration over the years.   Many dumb decisions to account for.  If they let Kirk go, it would take the cake.

[Major Harris]

2 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

 

 

I'm bailing on the Skins if Kirk goes but if Kirk goes to the Steeler's I could see myself adopting them.  I've admired them for about 50 years so why not.  If Skins goes to the Rams or 49er's I just may forget about the NFL.  I got my college team and that is pretty well run so I'll have Saturdays anyways. 

 

 

Please just turn your fan card in now.