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[SkinsPassion4Life]

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You get offended when your point in your mind is exaggerated but then you do the same to my positions  -- I didn't say they were completely lost, those are your words.   You harp on how good the 2014 and 2017 drafts were as evidence (in a number of posts) as perhaps they are better without Scot.   I am just saying in both years they had help from Scot.  As for how much -- we got no idea -- but people who actually did the drafting cited Scot's influence.  So for sure, there is some Scot in the mix.  So if the good and bad drafts are defined on your terms -- maybe the secret is some Scot is good but too much Scot spoils the broth?    

 

Bruce has had a track record as a GM for years before he got here.  Scott Campbell ditto as a personnel guy.  They aren't newcomers.  Some sarcasm coming now -- not directed at you but to explain why its a hard point for some of us to swallow.  You give Campbell a pass here because even though he was the top college scout-evaluator for years under multiple administrations but maybe they didn't listen to his recommendations?  And some of the mediocre drafts under Shanny -- aren't about Scot Campbell or Bruce, its all on Shanny.    Whose to blame by the way for Bruce's Tampa's drafts?  Shanny?  Scot?  They weren't listening to Bruce?   Or is it that was the past and now Bruce is coming until his own as a late bloomer and the idea that he had Scot's board is totally incidental and purely an odd coincidence to Bruce's apparent late journey to becoming a top evaluator?

 

To each their own as to conclusions about Bruce but unless I am missing it, I haven't seen you just go to town on really selling this FO team.  That is, do you think the Bruce Allen-Scott Campbell and company operation that we got right now is one of the top personnel/FO groups in the league?  Hence we will have better drafts and make better decisions than the majority of other teams and those are the guys that you feel good about that will ultimately take this team to the Superbowl?

 

I think that's what most of us care about.   Can we relax because Bruce-Doug-Campbell are running the ship and that team is among the best in the business?  If you think, yes.  That's cool.  Just like I said its all about believing big in this team.  And "big" is the operative word.  I don't think the aim of most of us here is mediocrity and an OK operation.    That's what I think of this team, they don't stink, they aren't great -- so so. 

 

 

 

 

Ok, let me try to be a bit more clear...

 

1) I was speaking in general to the thought that people think without Scot's "help" this team would be completely lost.

 

2) I think Scot's contribution to 2014 and 2017 was a sprinkle..and I'm not talking about Jeremy

 

3) My comments about 2014 and 2017 success is about the draft AND free agency

 

4) I am not comparing Bruce to Scot...I'm comparing Scot to the collaboration of Bruce/Campbell/Santos/Gruden.

 

5) I have no idea if the current structure will work long term....all I know is that in 2014 and 2017, it worked very well....If we had whomever you thought was the best GM in the league running the show in 2014 and 2017 and had the off-season results of these 2 years, I'm sure most people would be very happy......but because Bruce is the front man; there's a bias against him.

 

6) All I'm arguing for is to give this group a chance without all the doom and gloom....it's not like we fired Scot and have Zorn and Vinny making the decisions.

 

 

SIP - Did you buy any of Scot's memorabilia?

[Skinsinparadise]

51 minutes ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

5) I have no idea if the current structure will work long term....all I know is that in 2014 and 2017, it worked very well....If we had whomever you thought was the best GM in the league running the show in 2014 and 2017 and had the off-season results of these 2 years, I'm sure most people would be very happy......but because Bruce is the front man; there's a bias against him.

 

6) All I'm arguing for is to give this group a chance without all the doom and gloom....it's not like we fired Scot and have Zorn and Vinny making the decisions.

 

 

SIP - Did you buy any of Scot's memorabilia?

 

Now I am saying Scot is the best GM in the league when I've said multiple times John Schneider is.  And you are the one who tends to get huffy when you feel your position is mischaracterized...

 

To your Ebay comment.  Are you the dude taunting Jessica McCloughan on twitter about Scot's picks?   You are the one who seems fixated on Scot.  I don't even think he's relevant at all to the point at hand.

 

As for giving this group a chance.  These aren't new guys.   You can't seem to sell them without throwing Scot in the conversation so I am gathering you aren't sold -- I was trying to pull an actual sell from you about why these guys are the guys to trust.  That's what i care about it.   And reading other people's posts, i am not alone on that point.  Are we sold that these guys are top rate?   Just a straight serious conversation on said topic with real meat.  

  

[Wyvern]

50 minutes ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

... All I'm arguing for is to give this group a chance without all the doom and gloom....it's not like we fired Scot and have Zorn and Vinny making the decisions.

As a Skins fan, I've got to hope that "this group" does well.  And they should be able to be several times better than the Zorn/Cerrato group (some of whom, by the way, are currently part of the Gruden/Allen group) -- and yet that group could still wind up in the bottom third tier of NFL front offices.  Because Spurrier/Snyder and Zorn/Cerrato were that bad 

 

Consequently, I've also got to hope this latest Allen front office has picked up on some of the better GM practices of McCloughan -- in the areas of how he went about organizational talent evaluation/acquisition and as well in personnel department structural/administrative matters (While I'd hoped McCloughan might have been able to have more of a role in upgrading the scouting departments -- that was not to be.)

 

But frankly, there's a bit of a familiarity to the less-than-admirable way in which McCloughan was let go (as well as some of "McCloughan's players").  And that reminds me how the Allen front office probably isn't a group of individuals who I would normally want to cheer for.  

 

So while I'm still a Skins fan, I can't help but feel this group is starting to regress to it's less-than-stellar old ways, as a GM-less structure, placing a high value on maintaining established insider crony chemistry over bringing onboard the talent needed to take the next step up as an NFL franchise.  And frankly, I've never been impressed by Allen's tenure-- on many levels -- as I've already posted on several of these threads. 

 

Maybe now -- because more of Gruden has been added into the mix -- it's possible that essentially the same old group, returning to its  old GM-less ways, will now deliver new and better results.

 

I hope so.  So see? No doom, no gloom ...but definitely a healthy amount of skepticism. 

 

 

 

[SkinsPassion4Life]

16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Now I am saying Scot is the best GM in the league when I've said multiple times John Schneider is.  And you are the one who tends to get huffy when you feel your position is mischaracterized...

 

To your Ebay comment.  Are you the dude taunting Jessica McCloughan on twitter about Scot's picks?   You are the one who seems fixated on Scot.  I don't think even think he's relevant at all to the point at hand.

 

As for giving this group a chance.  These aren't new guys.   You can't seem to sell them without throwing Scot in the conversation so I am gathering you aren't sold -- I was trying to pull an actual sell from you about why these guys are the guys to trust.  That's what i care about it.   And reading other people's posts, i am not alone on that point.  Are we sold that these guys are top rate?   Just a straight serious conversation on said topic with real meat.  

  

 

Did you buy the hat?     If I were on twitter, I'd probably tell her to make sure Scot convinces a team to trade for Matt Jones.

 

You keep saying it's not about Scot, but it is...he's a symbol of what a top notch personnel man is to many people and what they've always wanted....I view Scot as vastly overrated...And you know I felt like that long before he got fired or we knew about any issues.

 

The perception of many is that we got rid of a great GM and replaced him with a clown show operation....I don't agree.

 

Do I think this current group is the long term answer?  I don't know.....I'm still not convinced Gruden is a good coach.

 

Let's all relax...take a deep breath...and focus on 2017....I think it could be our best year since 1991....and then Bruce can win Executive of the year!  

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

You keep saying it's not about Scot, but it is...he's a symbol of what a top notch personnel man is to many people and what they've always wanted....I view Scot as vastly overrated...And you know I felt like that long before he got fired or we knew about any issues.

 

The perception of many is that we got rid of a great GM and replaced him with a clown show operation....I don't agree.

 

Do I think this current group is the long term answer?  I don't know.....I'm still not convinced Gruden is a good coach.

 

 

As I said in a previous post, I'll run with the point to an extreme if Scot was a clown show and horrible at what he did -- its still irrelevant to the point at hand.  Scot's gone.  It's Bruce's job to cull among the resumes of highly regarded evaluators in the league.   Yeah, it's not a perfect science.  But its his job along with Danny to figure it out.  If you think Scot was a bad hire then it says more about Bruce's acumen by the way than anyone else.   

 

Cooley made a good point on this today which is if Bruce hires a GM and gets it wrong, I could put him in the line of fire considering he's the guy who both made the Scot hire and axed him.   The suggestion was he might not be able to get away with justifying another hire which doesn't work out.

 

If I get you.  Your point is in your mind Scot was the wrong hire or his importance was overblown.  Then any newcomer could be the wrong hire, too. So why push it?  How do we know they'd be better than the status quo?  If so IMO its a gutless way of running an organization.    

 

I gather my main point of contention with you in you seem to see Bruce and Campbell as blank slates or have built in disclaimers for the full track record.   On the draft thread, you put plenty of thought into prospects. And we had a lot of prospects that we liked in common.  It's just counter-intuitive to me that you could look at these two guys as somewhat blank slates even though they are in their mid-50s and have been around forever and they have real track records.  It's just like studying prospects, these guys aren't freshman, they are seniors with long track records.   We've seen them in the combine, in the senior bowl, east-west, pro-days -- these are both guys who are well vetted.

 

I got nothing personal against Bruce.  You make fun because I liked Scot personally.  But I am balanced on the subject -- I've been on the record consistently saying if the dude needed to go, then he needed to go.  Lets move on.  For me as to Bruce its all about what he does next.  If Scot wasn't the guy, then find the right guy.  I met Bruce, too.  We had a cool conversation.  I liked the dude, too.  It doesn't matter to me though. It's not a popularity contest.  I want a guy who is considered among the top at their game for running personnel.  I don't want a non-personnel guy like Bruce running it or the same guy who has been here forever in effect running drafts.  The idea that maybe no one listened to Campbell year after year - sounds wild to me.  I know Shanny said it but then we are supposed to believe that he followed through by doing the exact same thing that he accused Cerrato of doing?  If so, it says a lot about Campbell's personality and none of it lends towards the dude being executive material.  

 

If your point is its not the end of the world.  I agree.  As I said I don't see this team as a disaster.  If you go through the current regime's track record -- its mediocre to maybe slightly less than that.  Do I think if they resign Kirk, we could get away with mediocre drafts -- maybe so.   But if Bruce blows the Kirk contract, then I am off the Bruce/Campbell mediocre train and then IMO Bruce is smack in Vinny Cerrato-Zorn territory. 

[SkinsPassion4Life]

38 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As I said in a previous post, I'll run with the point to an extreme if Scot was a clown show and horrible at what he did -- its still irrelevant to the point at hand.  Scot's gone.  It's Bruce's job to cull among the resumes of highly regarded evaluators in the league.   Yeah, it's not a perfect science.  But its his job along with Danny to figure it out.  If you think Scot was a bad hire then it says more about Bruce's acumen by the way than anyone else.   

 

Cooley made a good point on this today which is if Bruce hires a GM and gets it wrong, I could put him in the line of fire considering he's the guy who both made the Scot hire and axed him.   The suggestion was he might not be able to get away with justifying another hire which doesn't work out.

 

If I get you.  Your point is in your mind Scot was the wrong hire or his importance was overblown.  Then any newcomer could be the wrong hire, too. So why push it?  How do we know they'd be better than the status quo?  If so IMO its a gutless way of running an organization.    

 

I gather my main point of contention with you in you seem to see Bruce and Campbell as blank slates or have built in disclaimers for the full track record.   On the draft thread, you put plenty of thought into prospects. And we had a lot of prospects that we liked in common.  It's just counter-intuitive to me that you could look at these two guys as somewhat blank slates even though they are in their mid-50s and have been around forever and they have real track records.  It's just like studying prospects, these guys aren't freshman, they are seniors with long track records.   We've seen them in the combine, in the senior bowl, east-west, pro-days -- these are both guys who are well vetted.

 

I got nothing personal against Bruce.  You make fun because I liked Scot personally.  But I am balanced on the subject -- I've been on the record consistently saying if the dude needed to go, then he needed to go.  Lets move on.  For me as to Bruce its all about what he does next.  If Scot wasn't the guy, then find the right guy.  I met Bruce, too.  We had a cool conversation.  I liked the dude, too.  It doesn't matter to me though. It's not a popularity contest.  I want a guy who is considered among the top at their game for running personnel.  I don't want a non-personnel guy like Bruce running it or the same guy who has been here forever in effect running drafts.  The idea that maybe no one listened to Campbell year after year - sounds wild to me.  I know Shanny said it but then we are supposed to believe that he followed through by doing the exact same thing that he accused Cerrato of doing?  If so, it says a lot about Campbell's personality and none of it lends towards the dude being executive material.  

 

If your point is its not the end of the world.  I agree.  As I said I don't see this team as a disaster.  If you go through the current regime's track record -- its mediocre to maybe slightly less than that.  Do I think if they resign Kirk, we could get away with mediocre drafts -- maybe so.   But if Bruce blows the Kirk contract, then I am off the Bruce/Campbell mediocre train and then IMO Bruce is smack in Vinny Cerrato-Zorn territory. 

 

 

I think Bruce and Campbell's previous contributions as it relates to personnel decisions is very cloudy.....Bruce dealt with Al Davis and Jon Gruden...I think those guys were the decision makers....Bruce was more of a GM in title only.....Campbell was here with Shanny and Gibbs...plus there were early years where Snyder was too involved...then throw in douchebag Vinny and it's hard to know what kind of influence Campbell had with the draft.

 

To be honest, I kind of like the collaboration instead of one guy making all the decisions....unless you're getting a guy with undeniable results.

 

I'm not thrilled with the Cousins negotiations either, but to lump him in with Vinny and Zorn if it doesn't work out is not fair.

 

 

[Conn]

Nothing wrong with a collaborative group think-tank making decisions. But someone has to be accountable in the end, someone has to be on record as having final say. That's why, if Allen wants to be that guy, he needs to just step up and take the title. Not give us some farcical in-house promotion to "GM" with no more power than they have now.

[goskins10]

32 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Nothing wrong with a collaborative group think-tank making decisions. But someone has to be accountable in the end, someone has to be on record as having final say. That's why, if Allen wants to be that guy, he needs to just step up and take the title. Not give us some farcical in-house promotion to "GM" with no more power than they have now.

 

This. If Bruce wants to be the man, just own it. If they win, ultimately people will not care. The big problem with the Scot thing for me is not that Scot ended up being mostly a primary talent scout and draft reference, despite him being announced as the GM. Unlike some I am not sure how intentional it was. The traditional structure is changing due to the CAP. But the disconnect is that when it was announced fans - I include myself - felt like they were finally going to implement the traditional structure with a GM who makes final personnel decisions. That clearly did not happen.  

 

While I am not glad to see Scot go, it's done. What they do moving forward is what matters. I prefer a traditional GM that is a player evaluator who actually has final say in player decisions. However, if they go another direction make it clear what they are doing. The problem I think most people, including myself, have is that Dan has been trying this method for a long time and it has not worked. Could this be the time? Sure. How likely is it to work? Recent history suggests it's not likely. 

 

Either way though, if Bruce is going to be the man, just own it. If he isn't then give the incoming GM the full power they need to be successful. This half assed garbage is irritating and so far has not really worked.

[Peregrine]

1 hour ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Nothing wrong with a collaborative group think-tank making decisions. But someone has to be accountable in the end, someone has to be on record as having final say. That's why, if Allen wants to be that guy, he needs to just step up and take the title. Not give us some farcical in-house promotion to "GM" with no more power than they have now.

Completely agreed.  At some point, you have to know whos responsible for the good, and whos responsible for the bad, otherwise you cannot make wise decisions to move the franchise forward.  Any person who isn't willing to take responsibility for problems, and always tries to pass the buck and hide behind others is someone who's poisonous to an organization.  Most of us know people in companies we have worked for like that.  Group thinking has its advantages, but there MUST be a clear decision maker who also has clear responsibility.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

 

I think Bruce and Campbell's previous contributions as it relates to personnel decisions is very cloudy.....Bruce dealt with Al Davis and Jon Gruden...I think those guys were the decision makers....Bruce was more of a GM in title only.....Campbell was here with Shanny and Gibbs...plus there were early years where Snyder was too involved...then throw in douchebag Vinny and it's hard to know what kind of influence Campbell had with the draft.

 

To be honest, I kind of like the collaboration instead of one guy making all the decisions....unless you're getting a guy with undeniable results.

 

I'm not thrilled with the Cousins negotiations either, but to lump him in with Vinny and Zorn if it doesn't work out is not fair.

 

 

 

Bruce already has a worse W-L record than Vinny here.  If he as a kicker can't keep the first franchise QB in the fold -- the dude shouldn't be lumped in with Vinny? I disagree.

 

If you like the collaboration drill with no key guy having the title -- then we should have been at our peak with personnel for a good chunk of Danny's tenure, especially the Gibbs era, that's the arrangement that existed.    And actually listening to the beat reporters it was pretty much what existed here too after Scot's first draft.

 

If Bruce and Campbell have outs about everything because of other personalities in the mix -- which exist in just about every franchise -- then they should have an out for perpetuity if they do this committee thing.  Heck that was a bad draft but was it really Bruce's fault?  Maybe Santos and Jay inserted themselves too much in that one.  It's part of the problem when the buck stops with no one.  Actually you giving two guys with long records in the NFL complete outs actually IMO helps make the case why you need one person who actually takes responsibility.  

 

http://www.bucsnation.com/2012/3/10/2859849/bruce-allen-worst-gm-in-football

Bruce Allen - Worst GM In Football?

By DraftPhantom on Mar 10, 2012, 11:31am EST

But Lets not forget what he did here; more than any SINGLE man Bruce Allen took us from Super Bowl Champs to a team with a derth of talent. I'm basing this solely on his draft performance (though signing guys like Charlie Garner and others cost us some cap cuts that hurt too). He took over as draft day manager from Rich McKay in 2004 and Tampa fans here are the results (I've included only names for the first three rounds since you should be able to find starters / Pro Bowlers easier here)

2004

1st Rnd(15th overall) WR Michael Clayton - BUST 1 Good season then sludge

3rd Rnd - Marquise Cooper LB - BUST

# of Pics after Rnd 3: 6 / # of NFL Starters: 0

2005

1st Rnd(5th Overall) RB Cadillac Williams - OK , Good player but was hurt all the time and was hurt often at Auburn - he should have seen that coming

2nd Rnd MLB Barrett Rudd - Average NFL Starter

3rd Rnd : TE Alex Smith - Marginal NFL Player

3rd Rnd : OT Chris Colmer - BUST

# of Pics after Rnd 3: 8 / # of NFL Starters: 0

2006

1st Rnd (23) OG Davin Joseph - Pro Bowler (his best pick of all time)

2nd Rnd OT Jeremy Trueblood - Slightly below average NFL Starter

3rd Rnd WR Maurice Stovall - BUST

# of Pics after Rnd 3: 7/ # of NFL Starters 0 {Bruce Gradkowski is a decent backup - rnd 6}

2007

1st Rnd (4) DE Gaines Adams - RIP, not dominant in his time here (And worse we had the chance to trade up to #2 for Calvin Johnson, but he was unwilling to part with the first of his 2nd round picks that year who was)

2nd Rnd OG Aaron Search - BUST (Good player but out of football for mental reasons well known coming into the draft)

2nd Rnd S Sabby Piscatelli - BUST

3rd Rnd LB Quick Black - Below Average LB

# of Pics after Rnd 3: 6 / # of NFL Starters : 1 FS Tannard Jackson(4th Rnd)

2008 [Thankfully his last after destroying what McKay built]

1st Rnd (15) Aqib Talib - Bust in the making (Character issues well know but we took him anyway and he's liable to be suspended even if he doesnt go to the pen)

2nd Rnd WR Dexter Jackson - Never Played an NFL down, cut in training camp

3rd Rnd OG Jeremy Zuttah - Good pick

# of Picks after Rnd 3: 4 / # of NFL Starters : 0 [Geno Hayes and Josh Johnson are decent backups]

 

Pretty Pathetic Record by Bruce Allen:

5 First Round Picks - 1 Pro Bowler , No Pro Bowlers in any other round

5 2nd Round Picks - 2 Starters, Barrett Rudd and Jeremy Trueblood, both are ho-hum

6 3rd Round Picks - 1 Good Player- Jeremy Zuttah

31 Picks after Rnd 3: 1 Starter

Compare that to Mark Dominik's record so Far:

3 First Round Picks : QB Freeman, DT McCoy, DE Adrian Clayborn, 3 Starters

(McCoy never missed a college game due to injury so I cant hold that against him, Clayborn is promising and Freeman may be a franchise QB)

3 2nd Round Picks: DT Price, WR Benn, DE Bowers - 3 Starters

All three have started at times and while I don't think we have a Pro Bowler there the jury is still out

3 3rd Round Picks : DT Miller, CB Lewis, LB Foster - 1 Starter Maybe

(Two busts - yeah I'm ready to call that on Miller&Lewis, and the jury is still out on Foster)

14 Picks after Rnd 3: 2 Starters (WR Williams and SS Grimm) along with Dekota Watson and about 3 players from last yers draft the jury is still out on)

Who's Tampa's Best of all Time: Rich McKay 1995-2003

8 1st Round Picks: 3 Pro-Bowlers (Sapp, Brooks, Dunn) 3 "ok" Starters: WR Anthony, DE Upshaw, DT McFarland , 2 Busts : Kenyatta Walker & DT Marcus Jones

7 2nd Round Picks: 1 Pro-Bowler (Alstott) , 4 Starters (OT Wunsch, CB B. Kelly, OG C. Coleman, DE D.White)

9 3rd Round Picks: 3 Pro-Bowlers (Grammatica, CB D.Abraham, CB Ronde Barber), 2 Other Starters (Frank Middleton & Dwight Smith), 1 Marginal (QB C. Simms- Injury so I reserve judgement)

47 Picks after Rnd 3: 1 Pro-Bowler (Al Harris - though not with us) , 3 Starters , and Dexter Jackson

Anyway if you want to share memories of just how bad Bruce Allen SUCKS feel free to share.

[SkinsPassion4Life]

I think Bruce's record in Tampa is very cloudy...I think Gruden was making the final call in Tampa.

 

In terms of the collaboration; we might not know who to hold accountable, but they know internally.

If we start drafting poorly because Campbell and Gruden are not getting it right; they will be held accountable.

If Allen screws up the Cousins deal and he leaves for nothing, has a great year in SF and we miss the playoffs in 2018, Bruce will be held accountable....etc...

[Hail2theSkins24]

^^ Great post. That is how I feel 

[Riggo-toni]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Pretty Pathetic Record by Bruce Allen:

5 First Round Picks - 1 Pro Bowler , No Pro Bowlers in any other round

5 2nd Round Picks - 2 Starters, Barrett Rudd and Jeremy Trueblood, both are ho-hum

6 3rd Round Picks - 1 Good Player- Jeremy Zuttah

31 Picks after Rnd 3: 1 Starter

As much as we (rightfully) hate Cerrato, he actually had a better draft record than Bruce Allen.  Let that sink in.

A couple years ago I wrote a thread about the culture of unaccountability of our FO...Campbell claiming bad drafts weren't his fault because Shanahan was running the show, Allen's putrid drafts in TB weren't his fault because Gruden picked the players. I compared this with Beathard, who quit the Redskins despite a big money offer from JKC, because the power structure changed to where Gibbs was getting final say on personnel, and Beathard didn't want to accept responsibility for things like the Riggs trade.

Either Allen is just a managerial figure/enabler/cap specialist with little or no influence on personnel, or he is a disastrous personnel guy. I think it's quite clearly the former, which can only lead us to wonder - how capable is Campbell? Was 2014 heavily influenced by McC's scouting service, or was it mostly his baby? Perhaps it will take the 2018 draft to know if he's competent.

[Peregrine]

The reason we hated Vinny was first and foremost all about results.  His teams were terrible.  The second reason we hated Vinny were because the REASONs why his teams were terrible were easily fixable, but he refused to.  They were because of his massive ego, his being buddy buddy with Snyder, and being an enabler of Snyder. Lets face it, if the teams were good, no one would care about his being an enabler with Snyder, or anything else.

 

The problem is Bruce Allen SO FAR looks like Vinny 2.0.  Sure, the window dressing is different(values draft instead of valuing FA), but if he continues to fail like he has over his career, is it really any different?  He will have been responsible for bad teams, and the reasons for that will again be ego, being besties with Snyder, and enabling Snyder.

[GhostofAlvinWalton]

1st Rnd (15) Aqib Talib - Bust in the making (Character issues well know but we took him anyway and he's liable to be suspended even if he doesnt go to the pen)

 

Umm...not sure the person grading those picks was on his game. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

Sorry for the double tweet as to the last one, but for some reason its not letting me erase that one

[Skinsinparadise]

54 minutes ago, GhostofAlvinWalton said:

1st Rnd (15) Aqib Talib - Bust in the making (Character issues well know but we took him anyway and he's liable to be suspended even if he doesnt go to the pen)

 

Umm...not sure the person grading those picks was on his game. 

 

He got that one wrong but I didn't see any others.  

[RSanz]

That McCloughan interview was so...weird.  I mean, the guy was nothing but complementary of the franchise (except for Bruce, lol).  So...strange.  I don't know what to make of it.  It's pretty clear the the beef was between he and Bruce.  I will say he was a class act.

 

So, the question remains...wtf is Bruce's problem?!  Jeez.

[Skinsinparadise]

15 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

 

I think Bruce and Campbell's previous contributions as it relates to personnel decisions is very cloudy.....Bruce dealt with Al Davis and Jon Gruden...I think those guys were the decision makers....Bruce was more of a GM in title only.....Campbell was here with Shanny and Gibbs...plus there were early years where Snyder was too involved...then throw in douchebag Vinny and it's hard to know what kind of influence Campbell had with the draft.

 

To be honest, I kind of like the collaboration instead of one guy making all the decisions....unless you're getting a guy with undeniable results.

 

I'm not thrilled with the Cousins negotiations either, but to lump him in with Vinny and Zorn if it doesn't work out is not fair.

 

 

 

I could deal with Campbell at the helm much easier than Bruce.  Campbell to me at least fits the checkbox of being a personnel guy.  And people seem to like him.  I simply don't want Bruce (a non-personnel guy) having final call.  I wouldn't love it if its Campbell but at least the dude is qualified IMO.   My main beef with Campbell is while the people in the building seem to like him and I've seen an occasional "good" said about the work he's done -- I just never hear his name ever in the mix of being among the best at personnel or have heard of any other team ever wanting him for the top job.  So when I couple that with the many mediocre drafts that have happened while Campbell has been here -- tough for me to get excited about him.  But again I'd take him at the helm in a heartbeat over Bruce for reasons I explained.

 

At this point my biggest hope is that they simply hire another well regarded personnel guy -- even if that person doesn't have final say.  Listening to Bruce's interview, I think there is a fighting chance that it happens. They add another guy but that guy is under Bruce.

[spjunkies]

The problem is Bruce's Gump tail wants to be the GM so he can soak in the credit.

 

I wish it was Bruce that got bounced, but Dan wants to keep the clown around to help with his stadium deal.

[Skinsinparadise]

33 minutes ago, RSanz said:

That McCloughan interview was so...weird.  I mean, the guy was nothing but complementary of the franchise (except for Bruce, lol).  So...strange.  I don't know what to make of it.  It's pretty clear the the beef was between he and Bruce.  I will say he was a class act.

 

So, the question remains...wtf is Bruce's problem?!  Jeez.

 

Yeah there was something else relating to Scot having no issues with Danny -- implying its all about Bruce.  Maybe it was the guy that he supposedly talked to in the gas station?  I forgot what it was but it was something.  If you go back and listen to Shanny's tell all about what went down -- he also seemed to mention Danny for the most part not interfering but he claims he was interfered with -- so was that Bruce again?

 

Grant Paulsen went into how he heard Jay and Scot had a really good relationship.  Scot told me the same.  And also told me that Jay is helpful in player evaluation just like he did in that interview today.   So Scot is clearly a big Jay guy.  And it seems to be vice versa.   Jay when corned at the combine said he's not going to say anything bad about Scot, he likes Scot.   So yeah I am guessing the beat reporters got it right that this is a Scot versus Bruce thing. 

 

I actually wouldn't care about any of it -- if I thought Bruce was just a kick butt GM but I don't.  

[lavar1156]

GMSM's comments on Jay are very encouraging. Scott Campbell and Jay should be a formidable duo in regards to scouting talent for us. Let Bruce stay the hell away from that.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I'm skeptical of Scott Campbell simply because of his longevity within an organization that lacks longevity across the board.  Campbell has definitely won Survivor: Ashburn, but I'm curious how that is.  I've never heard anything about any other team having interest in his services.

 

Perhaps he's really good at his job and all that's went down with him around hasn't been his fault.  Who knows?  I'm just not sure what information anyone that is gung-ho about him has that makes them feel that way.

[Riggo-toni]

2 hours ago, GhostofAlvinWalton said:

1st Rnd (15) Aqib Talib - Bust in the making (Character issues well know but we took him anyway and he's liable to be suspended even if he doesnt go to the pen)

 

Umm...not sure the person grading those picks was on his game. 

He was viewed as a bust until his very last (contract) year, and was let go (iirc) because the Bucs decided there was too much history to float the guaranteed money to retain him. This report was written before that development.

 

Here are Vinny's first rounders for comparison:

Lavar Arrington - horribly overrated, but multiple pro bowls

Chris Samuels - perennial Pro Bowler

Patrick Ramsey - starter who eventually went bust (was the last pick in the 1st round)

Brian Orakpo - Pro Bowler. Injuries diminished what might have been a great career, and we've been trying to draft his replacement ever since.

 

Vinny couldn't find a decent second day pick if his life depended on it, although he claims he wanted to draft Jamaal Charles, but Snyder overruled him and made him take Malcolm Kelly. Like with free agency, he was pathetically clueless about building roster depth. Allen just plain couldn't find anybody. An average fan with a draft guide would have done as well or better.

[thebeermonkey]

Allen is a politician. I don't want a politician.