The 2017 FA Thread - OP Updated with Signings (Sundberg, Galette, VD, Hood re-signed) *** Terrell McClain, Stacy McGee, DJ Swearinger, Terrelle Pryor, Chris Carter, Brian Quick, ZACH BROWN(!!)***

[Morneblade]

27 minutes ago, dckey said:

I agree that there are more moves that should have been or will be made, but you think right now the starting Def of last year with  

Kerrigan, baker, hood, rjf, smith, foster, compton, breeland, josh, whitner, Blackmon 

Is better than as of right now

Kerrigan, mclain, hood, mcgee, junior, foster, compton, breeland, josh, dj, sua

 

IMO we are better now but not by much.  I think having dj and sua is a way bigger upgrade than loosing baker and rjf to the mc brothers

 

 

Except that I was talking about the DL.

[nonniey]

5 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

I don't think we'll ever get comp picks with this FO. We sign too many replacement level players and it always cancels out anything we lose. 

Oh the problem isn't signing those players the big problem is how much we way over pay for those players.

[dckey]

2 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

 

Except that I was talking about the DL.

That I will agree with, but could the back 4 make the front seven better with dj and sua?  And isn't it possible to add a starting lineman and lb from the draft and be a completely way better defense?

[Skinsinparadise]

51 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

It depends. Next years draft is very DEEP at QB. I could see something like the top 4 out 5 picks being QB's if those guys have the years I think they will this season. And that is why I think it is SO important to trade Kirk this year if you cant reach a long term deal with him. Get as many picks as you can for next years draft.

 

Josh Rosen and Sam Darnold look like real deals.  Though Rosen was shaky at times last year but he was hurt in spurts.  If so they are likely going #1 and #2.   Some others have potential:  Mason Rudolph, Luke Falk, etc.  But I've stopped getting hyped about college QB prospects.   Unless you have the first few picks in the draft IMO its too much of a crap shoot for my taste to get excited, regardless of the hype. 

 

We've been on the go fish rodeo looking for a franchise QB with Scot Campbell among others doing the looking:  RG3, Jason Campbell, Heath Shuler, Patrick Ramsey. I remember the SI story about Heath Shuler being a can't miss prospect like it was yesterday.  I recall Bill Polian saying the same about RG3. 

 

 

[carex]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Josh Rosen and Sam Darnold look like real deals.  Though Rosen was shaky at times last year but he was hurt in spurts.  If so they are likely going #1 and #2.   Some others have potential:  Mason Rudolph, Luke Falk, etc.  But I've stopped getting hyped about college QB prospects.   Unless you have the first few picks in the draft IMO its too much of a crap shoot for my taste to get excited, regardless of the hype. 

 

We've been on the go fish rodeo looking for a franchise QB with Scot Campbell among others doing the looking:  RG3, Jason Campbell, Heath Shuler, Patrick Ramsey. I remember the SI story about Patrick Ramsey being a can't miss prospect like it was yesterday.  I recall Bill Polian saying the same about RG3. 

 

 

 

If only Ramsey had come in under a pro football coach

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, carex said:

 

If only Ramsey had come in under a pro football coach

 

Maybe so.  My mistake though saying Patrick Ramsey was in the SI article it was Heath Shuler.  I corrected that in my edit.

[Morneblade]

9 minutes ago, dckey said:

That I will agree with, but could the back 4 make the front seven better with dj and sua?  And isn't it possible to add a starting lineman and lb from the draft and be a completely way better defense?

 

Answer to your first question: No.

One of 2 things happens. Either you now have to commit 8 in the box to help a front 7 that can stop the run and get burned in coverage. Or you don't and get gashed up the middle and he makes the tackle 10 yards from the LoS.

Answer to your 2nd question. Not really. 2 guys wont be enough, especially when NT is not great in this class. ILB is really good, but if he's getting washed out because the NT is getting wrecked, he's not going to have a big impact. It's possible to get better, but way better? No, I don't think so.

[Conn]

I'm a big Josh Allen fan too. Good QB class next year with a lot of potential but I'm nowhere near ready to start thinking in that direction yet. 

[dckey]

20 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

Answer to your first question: No.

One of 2 things happens. Either you now have to commit 8 in the box to help a front 7 that can stop the run and get burned in coverage. Or you don't and get gashed up the middle and he makes the tackle 10 yards from the LoS.

Answer to your 2nd question. Not really. 2 guys wont be enough, especially when NT is not great in this class. ILB is really good, but if he's getting washed out because the NT is getting wrecked, he's not going to have a big impact. It's possible to get better, but way better? No, I don't think so.

I know you are big on NT, but wouldn't a better secondary and pass rush be better.  I've seen previous posts on how you like hankins, but wasn't he a part of that terrible nyg def when jpp injured his hand.  His numbers were terrible in 2015 with jpp out, wasn't ranked as a top 10 dl.  Now when you put him next to harrison, olivier, jpp and that revamped secondary his game elevates.  IMO if you have better back 7 play it will elevate that dline.  Now if you are able to get a Harrison, b Williams type that is constantly drawing double teams than they are difference makers.  But there are very few of them.  I can only think of a handful of NT that make the players around them better.  Normally it is the edge rushers and back 7 that holds the elite talent.

[Morneblade]

18 minutes ago, dckey said:

I know you are big on NT, but wouldn't a better secondary and pass rush be better.  I've seen previous posts on how you like hankins, but wasn't he a part of that terrible nyg def when jpp injured his hand.  His numbers were terrible in 2015 with jpp out, wasn't ranked as a top 10 dl.  Now when you put him next to harrison, olivier, jpp and that revamped secondary his game elevates.  IMO if you have better back 7 play it will elevate that dline.  Now if you are able to get a Harrison, b Williams type that is constantly drawing double teams than they are difference makers.  But there are very few of them.  I can only think of a handful of NT that make the players around them better.  Normally it is the edge rushers and back 7 that holds the elite talent.

 

"Sigh"

 

Ok, answer me these things.

What is an elite secondary going to do to help against the run game?

How are great pass rusher going to help you and 2nd and 2?

If you can't stop the run, how are you going to force people to throw?

 

On to Hankins. He missed 7 games in 2015. In 2014 he put up better numbers as in did in 2016. With the same terrible secondary. And they gave up 4.0 per rush.

 

We gave up 4.5 last year.

 

IMO, you build from the lines out. OL and DL. In a 3-4 the NT is the most important position on the defense.

[dckey]

Just now, Morneblade said:

 

"Sigh"

 

Ok, answer me these things.

What is an elite secondary going to do to help against the run game?

How are great pass rusher going to help you and 2nd and 2?

If you can't stop the run, how are you going to force people to throw?

 

On to Hankins. He missed 7 games in 2015. In 2014 he put up better numbers as in did in 2016. With the same terrible secondary. And no JPP. And they gave up 3.6 per rush.

 

We gave up 4.5 last year.

 

IMO, you build from the lines out. OL and DL. In a 3-4 the NT is the most important position on the defense.

Ok, what was our problem on def last year, we gave up to many 3rd and longs which has nothing to do with nt, but edge rushers and secondary play, second Dallas had the number 1 rushing def, would you call that def good?  If you were able to get off the field on 3rd down then teams wouldn't have as much running yards because of attempts.  And on to Hankins in 2014 jpp played all 16 games with 12.5 sacks(elite talent).  IMO I think you are over evaluating the NT compared to edge rushers and secondary in today's NFL where they throw the ball way more.

[Morneblade]

7 minutes ago, dckey said:

Ok, what was our problem on def last year, we gave up to many 3rd and longs which has nothing to do with nt, but edge rushers and secondary play, second Dallas had the number 1 rushing def, would you call that def good?  If you were able to get off the field on 3rd down then teams wouldn't have as much running yards because of attempts.  And on to Hankins in 2014 jpp played all 16 games with 12.5 sacks(elite talent).  IMO I think you are over evaluating the NT compared to edge rushers and secondary in today's NFL where they throw the ball way more.

 

We also gave up 4.5 yards a carry. We didnt stop anyone on anything. Even 3rd and 2.

And more rushing attempts doesn't effect ypc.

Hankins had 7 sacks as a DT (elite talent) in 2014.

Dallas did not have the #1 defense. #5 in points, #14 in yards. That's not a #1 Defense.

Dallas was #1 in rushing attempts and yards, but 11th in ypc. You know why? they were very efficient on O and got leads, forcing teams to play catch up.

I think you undervalue NT in a 3-4, and you likely undervalue stopping the run and making teams one dimensional.

I think you probably value flash over substance.

[dckey]

35 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

We also gave up 4.5 yards a carry. We didnt stop anyone on anything. Even 3rd and 2.

And more rushing attempts doesn't effect ypc.

Hankins had 7 sacks as a DT (elite talent) in 2014.

Dallas did not have the #1 defense. #5 in points, #14 in yards. That's not a #1 Defense.

Dallas was #1 in rushing attempts and yards, but 11th in ypc. You know why? they were very efficient on O and got leads, forcing teams to play catch up.

I think you undervalue NT in a 3-4, and you likely undervalue stopping the run and making teams one dimensional.

I think you probably value flash over substance.

Seems like you value flash over substance, you want to pay Hankins who you call elite with 7 sacks in 2014 but look at what the nyg did in 2014 rushing 3rd worst.  4.9 ypc worst than our def.  2nd how often are we in base def with true nt.  3rd maybe you were misunderstanding why i mentioned Dallas 1st in rushing def, but they were still a terrible def.  4th please research and show me all these good def that has an elite NT that has avg talent next to them.  Last how does more attempts not affect ypc.  The more I run the more likely I will gain more yds which raises ypc.

[JaxJoe]

I see both of your guys points and you're both right.  I have to agree with dckey that a traditional 'nose' isn't as important as having a talented pass rushing threat; hence why those guys are the top-dollar players on D.  Equal to a quality NT is a MLB who can pick the correct lane to stop the runner at the line.  So, I'd argue that a 2-down big nose that's 6-2, 320+ lb, and one good to very good DE in the 6-4, 300 lb range, plus a very good MLB should improve our run-D sufficiently.  I'm hopeful that Phil Taylor has finally recovered from his injury.  Then draft a guy like Zach Cunningham from Vandy.  I'm pretty high on him at ILB.  If Phil Taylor can just stand up to a double team and shed the block when the runner passes by for two downs, I'd be really happy.

[Morneblade]

31 minutes ago, dckey said:

Seems like you value flash over substance, you want to pay Hankins who you call elite with 7 sacks in 2014 but look at what the nyg did in 2014 rushing 3rd worst.  4.9 ypc worst than our def.  2nd how often are we in base def with true nt.  3rd maybe you were misunderstanding why i mentioned Dallas 1st in rushing def, but they were still a terrible def.  4th please research and show me all these good def that has an elite NT that has avg talent next to them.  Last how does more attempts not affect ypc.  The more I run the more likely I will gain more yds which raises ypc.

 

1. I want to pay someone to stop the run. That is the opposite of flash. You like INT's and sacks, you like flash.

2. I don't really care how often we're in it, but if history is any indication ~30% of the time. But if you run a 3-4, get  NT. If you're not going to have a NT, scrap the whole thing and run a 4-3. But that means you need to scrap everyone that plays the front 7 too.

3. What, because they were not #1 in defense? And guess what, they were better than we were. Better in every single category, most by a wide margin. What are you even getting at here? No, don't bother answering that. I don't care.

4. I'm not going to waste my time doing this for you.

5. The more carries you have, the less and impact a long run has on the average. If you have 3 runs of 4 yards and then a run of 75, your average is 21.75 yards per carry. If you have 29 runs at 4 yards a carry and then a 75 yarder, your average is 7.38. Did I really need to explain that to you?

[dckey]

18 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

1. I want to pay someone to stop the run. That is the opposite of flash. You like INT's and sacks, you like flash.

2. I don't really care how often we're in it, but if history is any indication ~30% of the time. But if you run a 3-4, get  NT. If you're not going to have a NT, scrap the whole thing and run a 4-3. But that means you need to scrap everyone that plays the front 7 too.

3. What, because they were not #1 in defense? And guess what, they were better than we were. Better in every single category, most by a wide margin. What are you even getting at here? No, don't bother answering that. I don't care.

4. I'm not going to waste my time doing this for you.

5. The more carries you have, the less and impact a long run has on the average. If you have 3 runs of 4 yards and then a run of 75, your average is 21.75 yards per carry. If you have 29 runs at 4 yards a carry and then a 75 yarder, your average is 7.38. Did I really need to explain that to you?

OK so let me explain it to you since this is over your head.  When I said that not stopping people on 3rd down affects your ypc.  If I run for 3yds then 2yds then we let them get a 1st down, then I run for 2yds and they get incomplete on 2nd but pick up a 3rd and long.  Then I run for 11yds.  My ypc just went from 2.3 to 4.5 which is what happened a lot to us last year.  Then my point about Dallas that you still Don't get is that even with the 1 ranked rushing def they were still not considered a good def (top 10).  Also when you stated hankins was elite because he had 7 sacks in 2014 i stated look at what they did against the run 4.9 ypc, but im the one that is just looking at int and sacks (kind of contradictory)  I'm tired of arguing with you, cause we just have a different opinion on what makes a great def.

[Morneblade]

5 minutes ago, dckey said:

OK so let me explain it to you since this is over your head.  When I said that not stopping people on 3rd down affects your ypc.  If I run for 3yds then 2yds then we let them get a 1st down, then I run for 2yds and they get incomplete on 2nd but pick up a 3rd and long.  Then I run for 11yds.  My ypc just went from 2.3 to 4.5 which is what happened a lot to us last year.  Then my point about Dallas that you still Don't get is that even with the 1 ranked rushing def they were still not considered a good def (top 10).  Look I'm tired of arguing with you, cause we just have a different opinion on what makes a great def.

1. You don't understand how statistics work, even after I explained it to you.

2. You never answered my original questions, and I don't think you can.

3. You say they were not a top 10 D, they were 5th ranked in points, the only thing that matters. And 11 in ypc. is not #1. I already touched on why no one ran the ball much against them. They won 13 games last year because they ran the ball well and stopped the run.

[dckey]

3 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

1. You don't understand how statistics work, even after I explained it to you.

2. You never answered my original questions, and I don't think you can.

3. You say they were not a top 10 D, they were 5th ranked in points, the only thing that matters. And 11 in ypc. is not #1. I already touched on why no one ran the ball much against them. They won 13 games last year because they ran the ball well and stopped the run.

Seems you don't understand how statistics works.  Ask yourself this would our running def ypc been lower if we were not last in the league on 3Rd down 47%.  Look I answered every question, maybe you just can't comprehend what I'm saying.  I have given you scenarios to show how secondary and pass rushing can affect ypc.  If ppg is the only thing that matters then we were a top 20 def.  19th ppg.

[Conn]

If you guys are trying to out-condescend each other, you're killing it in here. Like watching Serena vs. Serena, back and forth, back and forth. What a serve! What a recovery! And again! What a treat for fans of the sport.

[dckey]

Your right my apologies have a good night HTTR!!!

[Morneblade]

Yeah well, my ignore list has gotten pretty big in the last week or so, after discovering the ignore feature. One more today.

Keep the blood pressure down ya know? And at my age, it seems like I'm taking pills for everything these days.

[NickyJ]

I still think we should sign a cat though.

[Hail2theSkins24]

Jay Gruden and a few others have mentioned Phil Taylor as a possible solution at NT. I mean, really? The guy has had major injuries/surgeries that have clearly made him into a camp body, evidently shown by lack of interest from the other 31 teams. And it's not like we snuck by everyone and picked up a steal, the guy was a first round pick and very productive early in his career. If he still had anything left, he wouldn't have been available. 

 

 Let's see what ya got, AJ Francis. 

[wilco_holland]

2 hours ago, Morneblade said:

Yeah well, my ignore list has gotten pretty big in the last week or so, after discovering the ignore feature. One more today.

Keep the blood pressure down ya know? And at my age, it seems like I'm taking pills for everything these days.

 

Just tell your Doctor you are a Redskins fan and active on ES. He probally tells you to start drinking as the only way to handle this madness.

[Rufus T Firefly]

51 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

I still think we should sign a cat though.

Well, some people really want to get Josh Gordon and you want a cat. So, I found Josh Gordon's cat: