Gamebreaker Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 2 hours ago, EBoz said: Do the protest when you are NOT working!!! Haven’t seen many stories regarding that!! Shocking! Really?!? Oppression?!?? Dude, wake the hell up. Who exactly is oppressed? Funny, I don’t see them kneeling pre-snap. This whole “you’re at work” BS is so ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as you asking who is oppressed. 1 hour ago, EBoz said: Watching you guys complain is good enough for me. Apparently not, because you came in this thread with a lot of ? and ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 15 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said: Funny, I don’t see them kneeling pre-snap. This whole “you’re at work” BS is so ridiculous. While everything else this dude says is crap, I dont get why the "on the clock" thing is crap. They are in uniform, in their place of work, preparing to start their shift. McDonald's wont let you put on a uniform and stand in their restaurant protesting just because you havent served a burger yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spjunkies Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: While everything else this dude says is crap, I dont get why the "on the clock" thing is crap. They are in uniform, in their place of work, preparing to start their shift. McDonald's wont let you put on a uniform and stand in their restaurant protesting just because you havent served a burger yet. McDonald's also doesn't make you observe the pledge of allegiance or national anthem prior to your shift. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 6 minutes ago, spjunkies said: McDonald's also doesn't make you observe the pledge of allegiance or national anthem prior to your shift. True. Is that your only argument? So if they just got rid of the anthem and told players to do as they are told on company time, you would be okay with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBoz Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 15 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: While everything else this dude says is crap, I dont get why the "on the clock" thing is crap. They are in uniform, in their place of work, preparing to start their shift. McDonald's wont let you put on a uniform and stand in their restaurant protesting just because you havent served a burger yet. Which is my point entirely. Protest when you aren’t working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spjunkies Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: True. Is that your only argument? So if they just got rid of the anthem and told players to do as they are told on company time, you would be okay with that? I would be fine with that. I work for the federal government and I'm not forced to observe the flag when I go into the office, don't get it mistaken, I love the country, but choosing to observe these ceremonies should be a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 3 hours ago, EBoz said: Only because you have no argument. What I said is absolutely true. If you want to protest, do it on your own time. For me, I’m through with the NFL. Looking at the decline, I’m not alone Decline? The top 10 most watched TV shows of 2017 are all NFL games. Ratings have actually improved the last couple of weeks since Trump started tweeting (though I think that has more to do with strong prime time matchups than Trump tbf). By the way if your ‘through with the NFL’ what are you doing here? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 7 hours ago, EBoz said: Which is my point entirely. Protest when you aren’t working. Please go back amd address my post in the other thread. I quoted and tagged you. If you forgot and need me to quote it again, I will. 7 hours ago, spjunkies said: I would be fine with that. I work for the federal government and I'm not forced to observe the flag when I go into the office, don't get it mistaken, I love the country, but choosing to observe these ceremonies should be a choice. Interesting. This seems odd though. So dont force them to do something for a symbol but do force them to do something when the symbol isnt present? Isnt that acknowledging the power of that symbol? Not sure how I feel about this stance. I will have to think about it more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsmarydu Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 8 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said: True. Is that your only argument? So if they just got rid of the anthem and told players to do as they are told on company time, you would be okay with that? YES. As a former member of the USN, I will whole-heartedly back the removal of all anthems from sporting events. (You would've been blown away, however, by the Stone Mountain Mens Chorus' performance of "O Canada" that I witnessed Saturday night.) A lot of us were standing watching them in the concourse before the hockey game... God, keep our land glorious and free...indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Protest is working when the people in power are pissed off about it. (Rather they know why its happening or not) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 17 minutes ago, skinsmarydu said: YES. As a former member of the USN, I will whole-heartedly back the removal of all anthems from sporting events. Im not sure this is the right answer but freely admit I dont know what the right answer is. Part of me agrees with you just so we dont have to keep seeing this controversy. But I also like hearing it before sporting events. To me, it is a reminder that as much as we get into the game, it is still just a game and there are bigger things in life. Again, Im torn. 1 minute ago, Llevron said: Protest is working when the people in power are pissed off about it. (Rather they know why its happening or not) There is more than just that to judge if a protest is working. I would argue this protest is failing since we all seem to just be talking about standing vs kneeling and havent heard much talk about how to fix the issue that caused the protest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted October 23, 2017 Author Share Posted October 23, 2017 9 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said: While everything else this dude says is crap, I dont get why the "on the clock" thing is crap. They are in uniform, in their place of work, preparing to start their shift. McDonald's wont let you put on a uniform and stand in their restaurant protesting just because you havent served a burger yet. The reason is, or had been, that the bosses and the league said they were okay with it. They decided they were fine with their employees exercising their free speech. If they declared otherwise, then the bosses would be entitled to fine, suspend, or terminate players... but they went the other way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: There is more than just that to judge if a protest is working. I would argue this protest is failing since we all seem to just be talking about standing vs kneeling and havent heard much talk about how to fix the issue that caused the protest. You are never going to hear much about the issue dude. The majority is going to pretend it doesn't exist anyway. While on the back end this has promoted men like Kareem Abdul Jabbar to partner with the ADL to help these young men learn better means of protest AND it has the NFL and NFLPA looking for ways to satiate the players by helping them. Regardless of public position (white or southern or however you want to define public) these men, who are largely products of the very environment that needs the change the most, are now being armed with the knowledge to do so. And they already have the financial means in many cases. They weren't even paying attention to the problem before this. So now we have very public, arguably powerful black males that are: - Financially able to help - Receiving education on how to best help - Politically involved - INTERESTED Its working. The protest has done its job. Maybe the target audience (white folk) didn't pick it up. But another group has. And that is a success however you want to frame it. 6 minutes ago, Burgold said: The reason is, or had been, that the bosses and the league said they were okay with it. They decided they were fine with their employees exercising their free speech. If they declared otherwise, then the bosses would be entitled to fine, suspend, or terminate players... but they went the other way. Right. McDonalds says no, dont do it. NFL says hey we dont want you to but you are free to do what you want. Pretty cut and dry here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsmarydu Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 10 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: But I also like hearing it Oh, I LOVE HEARING IT! I can't even hear it without tears, tbh. But to insert it into sports for a financial gain/recruitment technique is rather disingenuous. (We're here to make sure you're free to bash each other's heads into mush.) My scales of justice may be skewed, but most folks think I'm just rational. No muss, no fuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 29 minutes ago, Burgold said: The reason is, or had been, that the bosses and the league said they were okay with it. They decided they were fine with their employees exercising their free speech. If they declared otherwise, then the bosses would be entitled to fine, suspend, or terminate players... but they went the other way. Well I was speaking more to when the on the clock argument was being used and the NFL was still consulting their experts to figure what position to take without losing too much money. But by your statement I guess you would be totally fine with the NFL forcing them since that is their right? 20 minutes ago, skinsmarydu said: Oh, I LOVE HEARING IT! I can't even hear it without tears, tbh. But to insert it into sports for a financial gain/recruitment technique is rather disingenuous. (We're here to make sure you're free to bash each other's heads into mush.) My scales of justice may be skewed, but most folks think I'm just rational. No muss, no fuss. I dont view playing the anthem as a recruitment tool mostly because every sporting event I went to growing up from Little League on, we always played the anthem. Now all the other stuff they do is definetly a recruitment tool but so what? People complained about the money DoD spent. Guess the budget of the Blue Angels! And you know what their mission is. Did you know the Blue Angels priority in the supply system is higher than a squadron flying combat missions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted October 23, 2017 Author Share Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) 54 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: Well I was speaking more to when the on the clock argument was being used and the NFL was still consulting their experts to figure what position to take without losing too much money. But by your statement I guess you would be totally fine with the NFL forcing them since that is their right? I would, but I'd also stand with the protestors at the same time. I'd love 'em to force the issue. A protest needs to have two things to be meaningful: It's got to raise awareness/generate attention and there needs to be risk to the protesters. Now, whether the risk is being jailed or losing your job doesn't really matter. What matters is that the issue you are willing to protest for is so important that you are willing to pay a price for it. That's why petitions don't hold a lot of weight with me. It's also why Snowden's whistleblowing felt wrong. If he thought what the government was doing was so bad that it needed to be outed, then do it, but be there to answer questions and pay the price for your actions. Running away to Russia made it a pretty limp act. It made it the act of a villain and a coward (esp. as what he released could easily harm national security and it's stuff Russia would love to get their hands on. Come to think of it... Was Russia/Wikileaks so effective at hacking the US elections because of what they got from Snowden? It's not impossible. Certainly, they gained great insight into how we operate, defend, think, and where some of our cyber weaknesses might lie). So yeah, I would like it if the NFL players protested even at the risk of being suspended, fined or fired. In fact, in many ways, I think that would make for a better and more powerful protest. To be cliche-- "Put your money where your mouth is!" Edited October 23, 2017 by Burgold 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsmarydu Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 5 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said: I dont view playing the anthem as a recruitment tool mostly because every sporting event I went to growing up from Little League on, we always played the anthem. Now all the other stuff they do is definetly a recruitment tool but so what? People complained about the money DoD spent. Guess the budget of the Blue Angels! And you know what their mission is. Did you know the Blue Angels priority in the supply system is higher than a squadron flying combat missions? First time I saw them I was in 8th grade, I still have the pictures I took that day. My grandfather was a CWO pilot in WWII, and I have no doubt your statement is correct. I just wish the thing occupying the WH didn't play political football with the lives/memories of servicemen and women who guard our security...especially having done everything on this Earth to avoid being one of them. It's shameful to an outrageous degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Oh I agree he is a disgrace. Place dont take anything I say as meaning otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) 18 hours ago, EBoz said: Only because you have no argument. What I said is absolutely true. If you want to protest, do it on your own time. For me, I’m through with the NFL. Looking at the decline, I’m not alone How will we survive with a couple panned shots of players kneeling for 30 seconds? It's really overtaking the other 3.5 hours of the game where I get to unwind and watch grown men attempt to destroy each other. It really makes me think about politics for the rest of the game.....UGHH... Edited October 23, 2017 by Sticksboi05 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Good. The NFL needs less fairweather fans. Go root for the Pats or whoever the flavor of the year is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Wonder what the response will be if I start telling people to stop whining about the kneeling. I mean, its a free country lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Sticksboi05 said: How will we survive with a couple panned shots of players kneeling for 30 seconds? It's really overtaking the other 3.5 hours of the game where I get to unwind and watch grown men attempt to destroy each other. It really makes me think about politics for the rest of the game.....UGHH... Whats funny is it seems the networks have saved us by just not showing the kneeling or the anthem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearfeather Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 17 hours ago, spjunkies said: McDonald's also doesn't make you observe the pledge of allegiance or national anthem prior to your shift. No, McDonalds doesn't play the national anthem in their restaurants and expect their employees to stand for it. But, there are restaurants that do, and I'm pretty sure if their employees were caught kneeling or not standing, they would be fired, and the owners would have a right to do that. Again, I'm not saying the players should be fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spjunkies Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, Spearfeather said: No, McDonalds doesn't play the national anthem in their restaurants and expect their employees to stand for it. But, there are restaurants that do, and I'm pretty sure if their employees were caught kneeling or not standing, they would be fired, and the owners would have a right to do that. Again, I'm not saying the players should be fired. I've been on this earth for 35 years and I've never been in a restaurant that plays the national anthem. That also seems like a major violation, how about people like Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf who refuse to rise due to religious beliefs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearfeather Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 8 minutes ago, spjunkies said: I've been on this earth for 35 years and I've never been in a restaurant that plays the national anthem. That also seems like a major violation, how about people like Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf who refuse to rise due to religious beliefs? They play it every day at 12:00 noon. Customers and employees standing. Not just some hole in the wall either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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