2016 Roster Thread (Building a Champion Edition) - Doct to IR - Mo Harris Up

[SkinsPassion4Life]

Just now, Mr. Sinister said:

Maybe he forgot what his point was?

 

Because at least part of the source of his pain and suffering seems to be that we accuse him of saying that he said that Scot as Skins GM as of now has been mediocre, when thats not what he said (I guess)

 

But...

 

 

Joe Gibbs is great...but was mediocre the second time around......I think Scot has the right vision...He has a good pedigree....I think in the long run he'll do very well, but.....so far it's been mediocre.

9 minutes ago, CTskin said:

Take a step back... It's you vs everyone. There are only two options here- either your point is poorly delivered or your point is wrong.

 

I kinda knew it would be.....My point was well delivered, but people want to see what they want to see.....it's fine...whatever....let's enjoy the year....I still think we can win this division

[Mr. Sinister]

1 minute ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

Joe Gibbs is great...but was mediocre the second time around......I think Scot has the right vision...He has a good pedigree....I think in the long run he'll do very well, but.....so far it's been mediocre.

Well I can't necessarily say I agree with that take, but it at least clears of some of the confusion of the last page.

 

And with that im out.

[CBass1724]

3 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

I really don't want to get into an argument about GMSM.....I like the guy and his track record.....I'd take him over Vinny and Bruce, obviously......but I think many fans are not looking at things clearly....you're so happy that Vinny/Bruce aren't making decisions; that you will give GMSM the benefit of the doubt.

 

Yes, absolutely GMSM gets the benefit of the doubt.  Like you said, you like his track record.  So do we.  That's how benefit of the doubt is given.

3 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

I said that I liked Scot and his track record.....that article has nothing to do with his time in DC......you need to look at what he's done since he got here....it's been a mixed bag...at best.....and for those giving him credit for last year.....Cousins was the main difference

I do agree that Cousins was the main difference, but this team doesn't have a chance down the stretch without all of those signings on defense like Blackmon, Dunbar, Everett, Will Compton, and Preston Smith.  Yes he's missed on some signings, but he's hit on some diamonds in the rough.

2 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

I like Scherff...he's a good player...maybe he'll become a pro bowl caliber Guard, but right now he's just good.....to say he was the difference is ridiculous...no offence....Leonard Williams would have had a bigger impact...SM could have found a decent Guard later in the draft or free agency that would have been comparable to what Scherff did last year.

Scherff is a stud at RG.  I don't see what the complaint is.  You don't find quality guards on the street or else we'd have had that spot filled already.  And some random FA or 5th round rookie WOULD NOT have been comparable to what Scherff did.  Do you even football?

45 minutes ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

We can argue about SM's hits and misses all day, but part of my criticism is also what he didn't do.....our biggest weaknesses going into the off-season were the D-Line, pass rush and Running game.....he did nothing to address it...in fact, you can argue that we are worse off.

You wanted to bring up his hits and misses.  He hit a home run with Scherff who missed like 1 play all season while giving up a couple of sacks, but you would have rather had a defensive lineman who played 75% of the snaps and only had 3 sacks/29 tackles.  Scherff had way more of an impact on the Redskins than Leonard Williams had for Jesey/B.  Galette's injury was unfortunate, so you can't say he didn't try to address that.

 

27 minutes ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

How many of SM's players were key to last year's team?

Look at the defense and count.  There are a ton.  Plus add in Scherff and Crowder.

9 minutes ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

Good lord....you guys keep missing the point....misreading what I wrote...making up things I said, etc.....Let's be done with this subject.

 

 

You are not a good communicator.  See Sinister's post where you contradict yourself.  We're aware that not all of Scot's signings have panned out but he's had a lot more "hits" that far outweigh the negatives of those misses.  Check out every other team's misses and report back.  It's normal.

[ncr2h]

Any chance that Grant or Ross get cut?  I would like us to only retain one of them.

Both will be 26 years-old by the end of this season (Ross will be 27).  At that age, it's hard to say that they have much upside.  If we're going to keep so many WRs, I would rather have 3 guys with upside rather than just two.  Crowder and Doctson have upside given that they're 23 years old, but I would like to see one more added (either Harris or the guy who made the big catches in the Jets game).

I just think we're wanting them to make the roster because of their upside, but they really don't have much left at this point.  I don't think we really lose anything by replacing Ross or Grant with a younger guy with upside.

This also partially stems from my belief that Doctson will be a bust (due to his age/years of experience when drafted - elite WRs don't last 5 years in college).

[clskinsfan]

While I would have preffered Williams to Scherff. There has been no definitive decision on which is the better player yet. We shall see. And those of you complaining about Scott's free agent busts need to keep in mind that none of them other than Norman were anything other than stopgap players. They were all one or two year plug a hole until I get a chance to draft your replacement type guys. He has not made big splashes in Free agency and is sticking to his formula that your superstars come from the draft. To call SM anything less than a refreshing change for our organization is just short of criminal IMO.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Damn.... Now im curious

 

What exactly is being misrepresented?

Are you really? 

1 hour ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

Good lord....you guys keep missing the point....misreading what I wrote...making up things I said, etc.....Let's be done with this subject.

 

 

 

[Conn]

Some horrible hot takes in this thread.

 

[Wildbunny]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Foster, Knighton, Hatcher, RJF, Blackmon, Hopkins, Way as FAs

Jarrett, Dunbar, Everrett, Breeland, Smith, Jamo as rookies.

IIRC Way was a Redskins before we got Scott, as Will Compton. Both have been here for 3 years +.

31 minutes ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

Joe Gibbs is great...but was mediocre the second time around......I think Scot has the right vision...He has a good pedigree....I think in the long run he'll do very well, but.....so far it's been mediocre.

 

I kinda knew it would be.....My point was well delivered, but people want to see what they want to see.....it's fine...whatever....let's enjoy the year....I still think we can win this division

Joe Gibbs was old, and had too much on his plate. He obviously made a mistake by taking full control. Beatjard got him the players, he knew how to made them play.

I believe your point his misdelivered. Like many around we tend to view Scott as godlike...

But even he admits that he miss more than he hits, but for whatever reasons, people discard that when it comes to him.

He missed on lots of players, and I see names like Paea, Knighton, Reyes, and much more, that are all debatable (I don't think Knighton was a mistake).

Still, there's the Junior Galette signing that is a real headscratcher. two times a one year contract, never played a down due to devastating injuries (and I really feel for the guy), he could have just bow out after the first, no he did it a second time...

If you think it's been mediocre, it's most probably because you expect too much out of Scott... Just like the Gibbs/Beathard era, let Scott picks the player and see what Gruden and his staff can do with them. If they can work something out of the player, Scott and Dan will keep him around. If they can't, they'll boot him ASAP (just like Amerson or Cobra Kai).

I doubt it's been mediocre to make mistake, admits them, and correct them asap. That's being smart. Being mediocre, to me, would be to stand to them, and not move on.

[Koolblue13]

@Wildbunny, Good call on Way. I didn't say Compton though.

[Mr. Sinister]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Are you really? 

 

No

 

Well about as curious as I am about a flaming car wreck on the other side of the road while driving...

[RemoveSnyder]

Might want to bring Paul Kruger in for a visit. Currently visiting the Saints.

[bobandweave]

2 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

Joe Gibbs is great...but was mediocre the second time around......I think Scot has the right vision...He has a good pedigree....I think in the long run he'll do very well, but.....so far it's been mediocre.

 

 

Simply can't agree. Scot got here in January 2015. That season we won the NFC East and hosted a playoff game. That was after placing 4th in the division with a 4-12 record the season before. He's had two drafts. In his first draft he took

Round 1 - Offensive Lineman that played every snap but one his rookie year and in a three game span didn't allow a single pressure on the QB

Round 2 - The Defensive player who led the league in sacks as a rookie

Round 4 - WR who broke the franchise record for receptions in a rookie season and who was 2nd in the league in receptions last season for all WRs

And other positions and players who contributed last season and will continue to contribute.

We have no idea how the next crop of rookies will turn out we need to get a season in for them to judge that. One unexpected injury to his first round pick doesn't mean anything yet about this draft class to me. 

When Scott got here the team was lost, in the news for a name controversy, looking for an identity and direction. Now we've gotten all of that since he got here plus more.

Is every move any GM going to make going to work out? Well today we lost the first guy he ever brought in back in 2015 so no that's not going to happen no one is perfect.

But the key to this leagues GM position is being right more often then the next guy and clearly he has been doing that. I'm not saying he's perfect by far no one on this Earth is perfect but the expectation of any GM on any team should be

1. Can they spot talent in the draft? He can

2. Can they build the foundation of a team from within? He can

3. Can he not abuse the salary cap and keep his team out of cap hell while using free agency and sign his own guys? So far so good

4. Can he turn a loser into a winner? 4-12 to hosting a playoff game in one season shows he can

I like him, he's gonna make mistakes and be wrong about guys he sees something in but so far so good to me. If this is the record of a mediocre GM after one year then I'd like to know what the resume looks like of someone good after one football season please to compare to. Not saying your wrong, just presenting why I disagree this is mediocre.

Thing about free agency is you have to think if another teams letting a guy walk there is usually a reason why that is. That's why you never see franchise QB's ever hit free agency, and why there is the corelation between a WR getting paid big bucks and his production going down. We saw years of trying to build our team through Free Agency and it never works. That's why you see teams like the Packers hardly ever use that. It's one tool to short cut your way to fixing holes in the team but not supposed to be the primary way to build your team. Free Agency is band aides generally

[HanburgerBum]

2 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

We can argue about SM's hits and misses all day, but part of my criticism is also what he didn't do.....our biggest weaknesses going into the off-season were the D-Line, pass rush and Running game.....he did nothing to address it...in fact, you can argue that we are worse off.

SM can only make those moves that you want if those moves are available.  He has only so many draft choices, and there are precious few free agents who turn out well. 

You sound like someone who would draft according to need.  With all due respect, that's the worst way to draft, because you would be constantly "reaching" for players whose talents don't justify their lofty draft positions.  When SM took over, the Skins were very short on proven talent and help was needed virtually everywhere.  It was not as if the Skins had only one weak area to address.  In that situation, BPA is absolutely the proper way to draft. Yes, the Dline is weak, but that doesn't mean SM should draft a 3rd round Dlineman in the 2nd round.  Same for the pass rush and the running game.

With just two off seasons, SM has totally turn the culture of this team around with the additions of such fine players as Scherff, Norman, Smith (a monster in the making), Crowder, Hopkins, Jarrett (would have been a terrific safety but for his injury), Jones (has flashed potential), Nsekhe, Dunbar, Foster.  Others like Spaight, Blackman, Bruton, Ihenacho, Hood and Phillips will apparently make the 2016 roster.  Among the 2016 draftees, Cravens and Fuller have shown great promise.  Doctson presumably would be doing the same in the near future.

I think you doth expect too much.  You need to remember that nobody (NOBODY!) hits 100% when it comes to player evaluation.

[SkinsPassion4Life]

7 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

Simply can't agree. Scot got here in January 2015. That season we won the NFC East and hosted a playoff game. That was after placing 4th in the division with a 4-12 record the season before. He's had two drafts. In his first draft he took

Round 1 - Offensive Lineman that played every snap but one his rookie year and in a three game span didn't allow a single pressure on the QB

Round 2 - The Defensive player who led the league in sacks as a rookie

Round 4 - WR who broke the franchise record for rookie receptions in a rookie season and who was 2nd in the league in receptions last season for rookies

And other positions and players who contributed last season. We have no idea how the next crop of rookies will turn out we need to get a season in for them to judge that. One unexpected injury to his first round pick doesn't mean anything yet. 

When he got here the team was lost looking for a winning attitude and identity and a QB and direction. Now we've gotten all of that since he got here plus. Is every move he makes going to work out? Well today we lost the first guy he ever brought in back in 2015 so no that's not going to happen. But the key to this league GM position is being right more often then the next guy and clearly he has been doing that. I'm not saying he's perfect by far no one on this Earth is perfect but the expectation of any GM should be

1. Can they spot talent in the draft? He can

2. Can they build the foundation of a team from within? He can

3. Can he not abuse the salary cap and keep his team out of cap hell while building it? He has been

4. Can he turn a loser into a winner? 4-12 to hosting a playoff game in one season shows he can

I like him, he's gonna make mistakes but so far so good to me and if this is the record of mediocre for a GM then I'd like to know what the resume looks like of someone good please to compare

 

I actually agree with everything you wrote, minus the part about me being wrong

[HanburgerBum]

22 hours ago, DC9 said:

 

I wouldn't take him at 4, either, but I'd certainly take him in the 20s.

Hopefully I'm wrong about him, but dude looks really good.

Yes, Elliott does look good.  But, I still wouldn't draft him at No. 4 unless my roster was so good at everywhere except RB.  That would be an exception to my rule to draft BPA.

[RedBeast]

Well? Having GMSM vs. us having someone else? I believe that we are very, very fortunate to be able to rant about such minor issues when for so long we were just plain ****ed. Now we have direction and a well balanced talented roster. A few weaknesses? Sure, but much, much better.

I think he has done an incredible job over the past two years (holistic view) and I'm looking forward to seeing how strong we will be at the end of his third and fourth years.

[TheGreek1973]

2 hours ago, ncr2h said:

Any chance that Grant or Ross get cut?  I would like us to only retain one of them.

Both will be 26 years-old by the end of this season (Ross will be 27).  At that age, it's hard to say that they have much upside.  If we're going to keep so many WRs, I would rather have 3 guys with upside rather than just two.  Crowder and Doctson have upside given that they're 23 years old, but I would like to see one more added (either Harris or the guy who made the big catches in the Jets game).

I just think we're wanting them to make the roster because of their upside, but they really don't have much left at this point.  I don't think we really lose anything by replacing Ross or Grant with a younger guy with upside.

This also partially stems from my belief that Doctson will be a bust (due to his age/years of experience when drafted - elite WRs don't last 5 years in college).

You would cut Grant?  After the way he showed up in camp and the preseason?  No way dude, Grant has the potential to replace Garcon IMO next year if he keeps developing this way, and Gruden loves him.  Ross also has stepped up from last year, I wouldn't cut him either. Hell if Harris clears waivers put him on the practice squat.  

[Burgold]

Just now, TheGreek1973 said:

You would cut Grant?  After the way he showed up in camp and the preseason?  No way dude, Grant has the potential to replace Garcon IMO next year if he keeps developing this way, and Gruden loves him.  Ross also has stepped up from last year, I wouldn't cut him either. Hell if Harris clears waivers put him on the practice squat.  

That's tough. Supposedly, Ross has had a rougher off season. He has dropped a few too many in practice, but he's the only other receiver besides Jackson who can stretch the field. Garcon, Crowder, Grant, and Doctson  are all good, but none of them are burners.

Grant though has shown that he can probably be a good slot guy (even though he disappeared and disappointed in that role last year which allowed for Crowder's emergence)

[HanburgerBum]

19 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

I like Scot...I like his philosophy...I prefer him over Vinny and Bruce.....but....If you look at it, his drafting and free agency over 2 years has been mediocre

Just about every free agent signing has not worked out....I'm not giving him credit for Norman...we all know that Dan/Vinny/Bruce would have signed him.

Draft wise....Scherff over Leonard Williams.....Matt Jones in the 3rd round when there were better RB's available, such as Jeremy Langford....this year he gave away our 4th round pick when there were quality RB's available like Kenneth Dixon and Devontae Booker

Neglecting our needs this off-season.

Hopefully it works out.

Actually, I think you do have to give SM credit for Norman.  Supposedly, SM signed on here only because he was given total autonomy on football decisions.  Danny is no longer in the equation.

As between Scherff and L Williams, I would have taken the latter over the former too--not because the Dline was an area of great need but because I thought Wms was going to be a more impact player than Scherff.  Now, that looks like a wash.

As to Jones, I am guessing SM thought he had the proper size to be a work horse RB, while other RBs did not.  In any event, I don't think it to be fair to play the game of retroactively picking out other players who turned out better and who could have been picked instead (unless you did so before the pick was made).  I think every GM could be made to look foolish with this game.

Another thing, given Snyder's reputation and the fact that the Skins two years ago were a laughingstock, how many good GMs would even consider taking over here?  I think we are damn lucky to have SM.

[HanburgerBum]

20 hours ago, carex said:

I feel like the whole BPA thing isn't working out at least this season.  Who knows when Doctson plays, Fuller is playing pretty good  but so has every one of our CBs, Ioanniddis seems like a PS guy, we don't want Sudfeld to do anything and Daniels and Marshall are hurt.  Cravens might be our best guy by process of elimination.

Wasn't picking DL supposed to be one of Scot's weaknesses?

I saw the rumors about Lewis and Sullivan.  It'd be great if we could swing a trade, especially if we could send a player instead of a pick.  I don't suppose that Seattle needs DL, ILB or CB?

Bite your tongue.  You can't be giving up on BPA this quickly.  Drafting by need is a tempting strategy, but it usually does not work.  You would be forever drafting players too high for their talents.

Having said that, I do make exceptions for the BPA.  Let's say the spot is No. 10 and the BPA is Ray Guy (HOF punter of the Raiders). I would not use a No.10 spot on a punter no matter how good he is, because I think punting is not that crucial--and more importantly, there are plenty of good punters around.  Another example, let's say the spot is No. 5 and there is a stud RB available.  I would not normally draft a RB that high.  But, let's say my roster is so good everywhere else except for RB.  Then, I would take the RB even if the BPA were at another position, because I am going for the Super Bowl right there and then.  

But, in reality, very few teams are that well-set to be able to afford the luxury of drafting according to need.  So, as a general rule, BPA is definitely the smarter strategy. 

[ncr2h]

23 minutes ago, TheGreek1973 said:

You would cut Grant?  After the way he showed up in camp and the preseason?  No way dude, Grant has the potential to replace Garcon IMO next year if he keeps developing this way, and Gruden loves him.  Ross also has stepped up from last year, I wouldn't cut him either. Hell if Harris clears waivers put him on the practice squat.  

I'm not saying cut both - just one or the other.  Maybe I'm a year too early on this one, but these guys are basically fully fledged NFL journeymen at this point.  25-26 is pretty old for a WR in the NFL.  I wonder how many WRs in the history of the NFL had been targeted as few times as Ross (18 times) by the time they were his age (26.5 years old) and ended up becoming an actual contributor.  Sure, the dude is working on his route running but at nearly 27 years old, how much better is he actually going to get (and why wouldn't we rather invest that learning experience in a younger player)?

I wonder if there's anything to this, but IMO the thing that bugs me the most about Ross is the way we looks in a football uniform.  This dude doesn't look like a football player.  He looks like when you were a kid and you tried to put on your dad's shoes.  I think at the WR position you need a certain level of confidence - just because you're a short or skinny guy doesn't mean you can't look like a badass WR (see Jackson, Crowder, Moss, etc.).  I'm mostly joking on this, but part of me believes it.  Grant isn't much better in this respect.

[Area51]

Our team was a perennial loser, league laughing stock, with an owner who dictated and forced who the starting QB of our team is going to be.  In the first year under SM, we got rid of the huge distraction/disaster that was RGIII, Snyder is in the background, oh yeah...and we won the NFC East.  If you are not impressed with the tremendous change of direction he has lead this franchise in the short period time he has been here, idk what to tell you. 

[DC9]

Thank god we have a game tomorrow night

[SkinsGuy]

1 minute ago, DC9 said:

Thank god we have a game tomorrow night

Maybe.  

If this storm moves in faster than they believe it will, they might cancel it altogether.

[DC9]

Just now, SkinsGuy said:

Maybe.  

If this storm moves in faster than they believe it will, they might cancel it altogether.

 

Well that would just be a debacle.

Three games of evidence is just not enough for this thread to be effective.  That last two pages are pure evidence of that.

10 minutes ago, Area51 said:

Our team was a perennial loser, league laughing stock, with an owner who dictated and forced who the starting QB of our team is going to be.  In the first year under SM, we got rid of the huge distraction/disaster that was RGIII, Snyder is in the background, oh yeah...and we won the NFC East.  If you are not impressed with the tremendous change of direction he has lead this franchise in the short period time he has been here, idk what to tell you. 

 

This.  No derails.  But the fact that he was able to pull this off, and the results were excellent... that was huge.  Things like this take time.  And I would not be surprised if we were 7-9 or 8-8 this year, and I'd still say we were on course for greatness.

Folks need a big picture view.