Barry v Haslett and Gruden vs. Shanny

[TheCoach22]

They play harder for the current coaches then they did at the end of the last regime, but they don't play better. There are no media leaks this season, but I don't attribute that to Jay as much as I do Scot.

The offense is an absolute dinosaur... If Jay had a clue he would be using Crowder the way Edelman and Amondola get used in NE and play him off Reed the way the Pats do Gronk. Thompson should be used the way they use Lewis too. The best thing about a BB team is that they plan to exploit the other team's weaknesses, where as a Jay Gruden team continues to try just one way. He has no imagination. Hell, he doesn't even have a personality! I was expecting to really like the guy but he could get canned today and I wouldn't care a lick.

Barry is just here until Jay gets canned. He doesn't do enough. I think they play harder but the scheme is so unaggresive I am not sure it matters. Honestly, he is the 3-4 version of Greg Blache. Just like we went from an aggressive, sometimes irresponsibly so, D under Wiliams to Vanila Bean Blache... We go from Blitz 0 Hazmat to Bend-then-Break Barry. This pretty much confirms we haven't had personnel on D to know what the heck we want to do.

The team is more watchable and competitive this season, which is good. However, we have underachieved. A better staff, IMHO, has this team 5-3 and leading the Giants by a half-game and the half-way point. Absolutely should have won against the Dolphins... Left opportunities in NY twice and in Atlanta. Consistency is lacking and that, to me, speaks volumes to the team's overall preparation.

[gchwood]

I dont really blame Barry for the run defense sucking recently.  When your offense is less than impressive for most of the game and your running game flat sucks, your defense tends to be on the field too long.  Each of the last 4 games the Redskins lost the time of possession battle.  The offense was abused by the Jets and Pats throughout the game, and against the Bucs and the Falcons the offense didnt show up until the 2nd half.  

[Probos]

There is no difference whatsoever right now between Barry and Haslett.

 

Gruden I actually think is starting to improve. People forget how terribly coached our team was for 3 of Shanny's 4 years.

 

No difference between Barry and Haslett?  I don't know what Skins games you've been watching but the schemes each run are different.  Now, has the result been the same with regard to wins/losses?  Yes.

 

Bottomline -- the team is talent deficient on both sides of the ball.  Outside of Breeland and Kerrigan (who's had an off year) everyone else is average to below.  Actually, Blackmon's played surprisingly well.  Riley, Hatcher, Culliver, Murphy, Jean-Francois,...hell, even Robinson.  I don't see anyone consistently stepping up and making plays.  I see guys getting beat one-on-one.  Sub-par play overall.  I don't see the coaching (at this point) being the major issue(s) with this team.

 

For the foreseeable future I'm staying positive.  McCloughan needs at least two more off-seasons to get this team to where it needs to be personnel-wise.  And I'm feeling better and better about Kirk -- lets keep him upright and see how the rest of the season plays out with him at the helm.

[Skinsinparadise]

I dont really blame Barry for the run defense sucking recently.  When your offense is less than impressive for most of the game and your running game flat sucks, your defense tends to be on the field too long.  Each of the last 4 games the Redskins lost the time of possession battle.  The offense was abused by the Jets and Pats throughout the game, and against the Bucs and the Falcons the offense didnt show up until the 2nd half.  

 

I'd agree with you if they were good initially stopping the run and they just wore down as the game progressed.  But they were getting gashed in the first drive, heck on the first play -- the Patriots as have just about every other team of late discovered hey yeah these guys can stop us if we bounce to the edges especially the right side.

 

Thinking about it, unless I am missing something this has been ditto in every game of late -- the big runs come just about immediately.

[Burgold]

I dont really blame Barry for the run defense sucking recently.  When your offense is less than impressive for most of the game and your running game flat sucks, your defense tends to be on the field too long.  Each of the last 4 games the Redskins lost the time of possession battle.  The offense was abused by the Jets and Pats throughout the game, and against the Bucs and the Falcons the offense didnt show up until the 2nd half.  

That complaint never rings true, because we see this run defense sucking from the very first snap. It's not like they get worn down and are being gashed in the fourth quarter. They are getting annihilated on the first drive! That's not fatigue. It is bad execution, design, or players who can't cut it.

[50yrSKINSfan]

IMO,

Shanahan / Barry.

 

Mike took the team from a joke to a division title at least, but his downfall was Haslett, whom he never got rid of.

There's no comparing Barry to Haslett this early, but it seems at least Barry has them playing harder; Haslett just cowered up in the booth reading Mad magazine and football for Dummies.

 

Gruden, I'd say he has to have a little bit of a longer leash, at least for this and next year; if he doesn't get this offense going, then he's on the hot seat, but its just too early, especially with the QB crap we all just went through. Its too bad that he didn't have this team psyched and ready for this week, which he should whole-heartedly be criticized for, but the WRs coach should run their asses into the ground for 4 days straight and for god's sake get rid of Andre Roberts. That sorry p.o.s. doesn't deserve to wear an NFL uniform.

Agree. I thought we would do much better on D with 2 weeks to prepare. 

That complaint never rings true, because we see this run defense sucking from the very first snap. It's not like they get worn down and are being gashed in the fourth quarter. They are getting annihilated on the first drive! That's not fatigue. It is bad execution, design, or players who can't cut it.

If you cannot stop the run. Quarter after quarter, game after game it is because you are getting blocked. If you cannot get off your blocks and make a stop then you do not belong on the field.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Without a doubt our LBS are just PUTRID!!!! Eeeeewwwww!!

We have the most easily defended and unimaginative offense in the league proven by least big plays in the league this year

Is it that our LBs stink or is it that our D line does not protect them from being blocked by the other teams O line?

[RandyHolt]

At least Haslett could largely stop the run, and Mike could run. 

 

Gruden himself even said running on Haslett was always a chore.

[Cliffmark1]

i think scot is doing his job. some personel groups imo are outperforming and certain groups with more talent are underperforming. but LBs have been absent. I'd look closely at our DB coach, im not watchint 32 camera angles but i would say DBs are out performing their talent which is good coaching.

our LBs are underperforming their talent level which could be indicative of the LB coach.

both groups need good acquisitions this offseason like first pick imo should go to DB 2nd LB 3/4th safety. but we prob need a new LB coach too.

Is it that our LBs stink or is it that our D line does not protect them from being blocked by the other teams O line?

ive seen at least three plays where kerrigan or another lb can make a sack and they dont. so i think its lbs. for me the question is - is it bad coaching or is it talent/injury. im leaning toward coaching.

also the WR coach should be fired today.

[Burgold]

Overreaction on the WRs. Crowder is having an excellent rookie campaign, Garçon has been uneven, but mostly good. Grant has been okay, but he was cast in a role too big for him. Roberts is Roberts and Desean is MIA.

WR has somewhat over performed all things considered. Yesterday, they were terrible.

[Ghost of]

People have pointed out that since the line attacks, the LBs aren't protected like they used to be. They are, according to this view, also being asked to do too much that cannot be done by most players and this leads to more bad angles, more missed tackles, etc.

[Thirtyfive2seven]

I think that the Redskins would be Great if they had gotten Scot as GM when Shanny was here.  I love that the Redskins defense is actually doing decently given all of the injuries they have sustained in the secondary.  It's like anyone they throw in there at CB or Safety does a pretty good job.  I know everyone wants to run Gruden out of town but I think that with another year or two of drafts the Redskins will be a very good team.  

 

And I'd hate to say this but given the QB play in Philly is anyone else concerned that RGIII might be headed there next year when the Redskins cut him???  RGIII may not be a great fit here for Gruden but imagine what Chip Kelly could do with him running THAT offense?  it's scary.

[Cliffmark1]

Overreaction on the WRs. Crowder is having an excellent rookie campaign, Garçon has been uneven, but mostly good. Grant has been okay, but he was cast in a role too big for him. Roberts is Roberts and Desean is MIA.

WR has somewhat over performed all things considered. Yesterday, they were terrible.

. it's about the message. in this case accountability. thats why wr coach should be gone. 10 drops officially in one game. that requires a response imo.

I think that the Redskins would be Great if they had gotten Scot as GM when Shanny was here. I love that the Redskins defense is actually doing decently given all of the injuries they have sustained in the secondary. It's like anyone they throw in there at CB or Safety does a pretty good job. I know everyone wants to run Gruden out of town but I think that with another year or two of drafts the Redskins will be a very good team.

And I'd hate to say this but given the QB play in Philly is anyone else concerned that RGIII might be headed there next year when the Redskins cut him??? RGIII may not be a great fit here for Gruden but imagine what Chip Kelly could do with him running THAT offense? it's scary.

i think he problably does go there. but i think rg3 is just not the same as he was before. i would say he isnt looking at big contract numbers and not looking to be brought in as a starter. he may earn it or he may be done.

[Skinsinparadise]

Mark Bullock weighing in on the run defense.  Keim on coaching-execution

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2015/11/09/a-closer-look-at-how-the-redskins-run-defense-went-awry-against-the-patriots/?postshare=1901447087879609

 

The tackling problems have been well documented. Washington defenders have struggled to wrap up and complete tackles, instead allowing runners to pick up extra yards. But tackling isn’t the only problem for this defense. One of the biggest problems schematically has been setting an edge. The edge defenders, Ryan Kerrigan and Trent Murphy, have been crashing inside on run plays, leaving the edge vacant for the inside linebackers to have to cover.

The Patriots’ offense was always going to be tough to defend, but coming off a bye week against a patchwork offensive line, the Redskins could have expected better run defense. It’s worrying that the Redskins are still crashing edge defenders inside even after a bye week to self-evaluate. It’s been a fault of the defense since the game against Atlanta, when the Redskins’ run defense started to falter.

But the Redskins also need to get more from their inside linebackers. Riley began the season exceptionally well before getting hurt, but has been poor since returning to the field. Compton performed well in his absence initially, but isn’t an impact player in the run game. Robinson has been the most worrying of the group. He was expected to take the next step forward this season in a contract year. While he’s flashed his athleticism and ability, like on his interception, he has failed to play consistently against the run.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/21282/redskins-cant-turn-corner-until-they-execute-the-basics

Back in the day, Marty Schottenheimer’s team or some of Joe Gibbs’ teams (in his second tenure) weren’t wildly talented. They did execute and play hard and smart. Let’s start with that as the baseline. If the Redskins want to establish anything in the second half of the season, there you go. Especially on defense: Be in the right spot to stop the run.

“You can’t drop balls you’re supposed to catch; you can’t not cover the guy you’re supposed to cover,” Redskins defensive end Chris Baker said. “They do a good job playing assignment football. We just got to get better making the plays we’re supposed to make.”

Said end Ricky Jean Francois, “They might miss [tackles] here and there. We were missing them left and right. They’re not dropping passes like we were. We had the opportunity to go toe-to-toe with this team, but it wasn’t there.”

[Wildbunny]

also the WR coach should be fired today.

 

No. You don't fire coaches at the first mistakes. Because that's also a bad sign send to the next guy. You need guys that know they have some "leash" going on, just in case. But I'm not expecting this to happen anytime soon for the whole team. And I'll watch if he gets mads at them and work the **** out of them at catching the ball. After all, as Cousins said, it's more of an anomaly than a real pattern we've witnessed yesterday.

 

Also, those WR are pros. They've been catching balls for more than 10 years since HS and College. And I'm still wondering how can some guys makes it to the pro level without knowing how to catch a ball or even tackling properly. I'm baffled at the fact that NFL Coaches have to make sure those guys know how to do it. Well, you always go back to the basics, that's obvious, but seeing this kind of inability by some guys is just astounding.

[pjfootballer]

I hate to say this, but over the years, I defended our move to the 3-4. I'm not so sure I like it anymore. I've always been partial to the 4-3 myself. We just never seem to have the right guys to run the 3-4. Not saying we don't have 3-4 defenders, but elite enough guys to run it. We're always terrible against the run and we still never seem to get enough pressure.

[Brokenstriker]

Haz vs. Barry ... still spoiled with memories of Petitbon making halftime adjustments that killed the opposition in just about every game.  Barry wins by playing the odds better than Haz who sold out early and often with all or nothing play calling.  That in no way means Barry is doing a good job ... just not as bad as Haz.  Barry damn well better fix the D Line tactics to stop giving away the edge ... beat some sense into the backs re: the actual meaning of the term "tackle" ... bench/cut Riley and blitz at least occasionally especially vs. rookie and back-up QBs.

 

Shanman vs. the Gruden ... stuck on Beck and Grossman ... stuck on making a decision to trade 4 should-be-starters for 1 flawed QB, or staying in the job if that decision was forced on him ... stuck on bringing in Haz and converting from 4 - 3 to 3 - 4 without any of the right pieces.  The Gruden wins in an easy no-contest.

[Wildbunny]

Shanman vs. the Gruden ... stuck on Beck and Grossman ... stuck on making a decision to trade 4 should-be-starters for 1 flawed QB, or staying in the job if that decision was forced on him ... stuck on bringing in Haz and converting from 4 - 3 to 3 - 4 without any of the right pieces.  The Gruden wins in an easy no-contest.

 

I think OP was about Kyle Shanahan vs Gruden. It should have been Mike S. vs Gruden and McVay vs Kyle S. in my opinion to make it clearer. But Shanahan father vs Gruden works fine to me also.

[skins island connection]

No. You don't fire coaches at the first mistakes. Because that's also a bad sign send to the next guy. You need guys that know they have some "leash" going on, just in case. But I'm not expecting this to happen anytime soon for the whole team. And I'll watch if he gets mads at them and work the **** out of them at catching the ball. After all, as Cousins said, it's more of an anomaly than a real pattern we've witnessed yesterday.

 

Also, those WR are pros. They've been catching balls for more than 10 years since HS and College. And I'm still wondering how can some guys makes it to the pro level without knowing how to catch a ball or even tackling properly. I'm baffled at the fact that NFL Coaches have to make sure those guys know how to do it. Well, you always go back to the basics, that's obvious, but seeing this kind of inability by some guys is just astounding.

 

 Not trying to be an ass, but that's been the M.O. for this team for 10 + years.

I'd bet that Snyder had the desks of current coaches made from the contracts of the prior coaches he hired, with clear-coated eggshell top.

[skins island connection]

I hate to say this, but over the years, I defended our move to the 3-4. I'm not so sure I like it anymore. I've always been partial to the 4-3 myself. We just never seem to have the right guys to run the 3-4. Not saying we don't have 3-4 defenders, but elite enough guys to run it. We're always terrible against the run and we still never seem to get enough pressure.

 

 I've never been a fan of the 3-4. The argument is that most all teams are running it today; well, that's part of the problem; teams are practicing against the 3-4 and find ways to exploit it, especially when the players are sub-par. At least with the 4-3 it fills the line up a little more, maybe it helps stop the outside running, and being most teams are running the 3-4 it seems natural that running a 4-3, or even a hybrid form of that would create problems for opponents, and the desperate need for LBs would not be as great.

 

If they REALLY wanted me to get a woody they'd do something special like the 4-6, but even then it still requires decent players.

[Bishop Hammer]

I would take Barry over Haslett.  Still undecided about Jay.  If it wasn't for Griffins rookie year, Shanahan's only good season, I would pick Gruden, just because he's only been here two years.

[skinny21]

Mark Bullock weighing in on the run defense. Keim on coaching-execution

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2015/11/09/a-closer-look-at-how-the-redskins-run-defense-went-awry-against-the-patriots/?postshare=1901447087879609

The tackling problems have been well documented. Washington defenders have struggled to wrap up and complete tackles, instead allowing runners to pick up extra yards. But tackling isn’t the only problem for this defense. One of the biggest problems schematically has been setting an edge. The edge defenders, Ryan Kerrigan and Trent Murphy, have been crashing inside on run plays, leaving the edge vacant for the inside linebackers to have to cover.

The Patriots’ offense was always going to be tough to defend, but coming off a bye week against a patchwork offensive line, the Redskins could have expected better run defense. It’s worrying that the Redskins are still crashing edge defenders inside even after a bye week to self-evaluate. It’s been a fault of the defense since the game against Atlanta, when the Redskins’ run defense started to falter.

But the Redskins also need to get more from their inside linebackers. Riley began the season exceptionally well before getting hurt, but has been poor since returning to the field. Compton performed well in his absence initially, but isn’t an impact player in the run game. Robinson has been the most worrying of the group. He was expected to take the next step forward this season in a contract year. While he’s flashed his athleticism and ability, like on his interception, he has failed to play consistently against the run.

http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/21282/redskins-cant-turn-corner-until-they-execute-the-basics

Back in the day, Marty Schottenheimer’s team or some of Joe Gibbs’ teams (in his second tenure) weren’t wildly talented. They did execute and play hard and smart. Let’s start with that as the baseline. If the Redskins want to establish anything in the second half of the season, there you go. Especially on defense: Be in the right spot to stop the run.

“You can’t drop balls you’re supposed to catch; you can’t not cover the guy you’re supposed to cover,” Redskins defensive end Chris Baker said. “They do a good job playing assignment football. We just got to get better making the plays we’re supposed to make.”

Said end Ricky Jean Francois, “They might miss [tackles] here and there. We were missing them left and right. They’re not dropping passes like we were. We had the opportunity to go toe-to-toe with this team, but it wasn’t there.”

Hate to quote so much, but there were several nuggets I wanted to comment on...

1st, yeah, missed tackles are a big issue, but not setting the edge/playing contain is destroying us. After thinking about this for a while, I've found myself pretty ticked off about it. Last year, Murphy was one of the best run defenders of all 3-4 OLBs. Kerrigan has always been good playing contain (when asked). So the problem is almost certainly schematic. How the heck do you go through 5+ weeks of this, including a 'self evaluation' over the bye week, and still have a major issue here?

Riley is a limited player obviously and Robinson seems to be ailing, so why are they being asked to scrape to the outside to play contain? I have a feeling this was a part of JJ getting more PT - Robinson was (I think) struggling to come forward to play the force role. Talent is an issue for sure, but it's far from being historically bad. Barry needs to make changes to what he's doing because letting teams run almost at will on us is really letting the team down. I know he wants to protect his secondary, but he needs to find some sort of balance.

Whether it's our run D or run game, while we could use more talent, we need to execute. The point about Schotty/Gibbs stands.

Don't like Francois and Baker commenting on the drops. Yes, they are absolutely right that they hurt us badly, but the defense's inability to stop the run has hurt us consistently. Brady had his worst game of the year, but it sure seemed that a large part of that was due to run D - they controlled the clock, leading to fewer opportunities for our offense. If Brady had to, I have little doubt he could have put the team on his back and won the game.

I don't know if that was just a portion of their quote, so I'm not mad at them, but I don't really like tossing blame elsewhere.

[Peregrine]

I suppose I would say I think Barry is a little better than Haslett, and Gruden is about the same as Shanahan.

 

We will know more at the end of the year, for the same reason that you cant get too high on Barry for how good they were early in the year, you cant get too low right now, the defense may get better, or it may get worse.  Its impossible to judge after 8 games.

[Skinsinparadise]

I suppose I would say I think Barry is a little better than Haslett, and Gruden is about the same as Shanahan.

 

We will know more at the end of the year, for the same reason that you cant get too high on Barry for how good they were early in the year, you cant get too low right now, the defense may get better, or it may get worse.  Its impossible to judge after 8 games.

 

I agree with this.  I'd give Barry an incomplete to be determined grade.  It really depends on how you look at it and it can get exposed either way IMO going forward:

 

Pro-Barry:   The secondary has improved granted with mostly different personnel from the previous year.  They seem to be an opportunistic team that causes turnovers.  They seem sturdy when it comes to red zone defense and at times in clutch moments.   They don't give up a ton of points-yards.  Passers haven't hit 300 yards.  He has a little Greg Blache it seems in him -- conservative -- don't bend, don't break style.  Even though I didn't love Blache as a D coordinator, I'd take him over Haz.   A lot more energy than Haz.  Haz always seem to have some sort of zen-relaxed posed on the sideline.  Barry has some fire and energy in him.  

 

Anti-Barry:  Little pass rush and they can't stop the run, 3rd quarter woes. The first two games which were among their best games -- they were barely on the field though in them so did they give an inflated view of them at their best?  Kerrigan and Murphy were good last year against the run.  They have basically the same guys up front - Baker, Hatcher but with supposedly the enhancement of Knighton who is known as a run stuffer.  This all adds to an historically bad run defense?  And poor Barry has no talent?  This is basically the same front we have last year but enhanced.   Same ILBS, too.  The no talent stuff IMO on the issue of run stopping doesn't fly -- not even a little.   Staying on the time of possession argument -- before the NE game, the Redskins were ranked 3rd in the league.  We weren't that good last year in this area.  Meaning the offense has done much more to help Barry than they did Haz. 

[CBass1724]

Extremeskins makes me laugh.  I don't come around here as often when the team is not doing well because people tend to overreact and think all of our coaches and players need to be fired.  I can't stand a bunch of the negativity.

 

I don't think any conclusions can be made about anybody - Gruden included - until after next season.  It just takes time and patience to change everything about an organization from top to bottom.  We still don't have the players we need and the players are still learning the offensive and defensive systems we are installing.  Our running game looks like Martyball's running game when he was 0-5. 

 

As cliche as it sounds, all of our players need to build upon every game rep they are given.  Take a look at Kirk, he is steadily improving each week and is a legit, functional, NFL QB.  At least 95% of everyone on this board said we were going to win 3 or 4 games.  Well we have won 3 and it's only the halfway point.  Stop being so impatient and let things run their course.  The Redskins are an undeniably better organization now than last year.

 

re: The OP

Our current regime is leaps and bounds better than their predecessors. 

 

Also, to anybody saying Gruden is on the hot seat: Snyder is not going to ****can Gruden with $15m left on his contract, plus however much money the other coaches are guaranteed.  Besides, if that happens, it just starts the clock over on putting in a new system, culture change, etc, that comes along with a new coaching staff. No thank you.