Barry v Haslett and Gruden vs. Shanny

[Wildbunny]

I agree with this.  I'd give Barry an incomplete to be determined grade.  It really depends on how you look at it and it can get exposed either way IMO going forward:

 

Pro-Barry:  

 

How can you not like a guy that:

 

or:

 

That guy is clearly great!

We have a winner!

[FuriousD]

I'll preface this by saying I was beyond thrilled when both Shanny and Haslett got the boot. That being said, I'm still grateful for 2012.

 

Haslett vs Barry? Push... too early but it shouldn't be hard for Barry to make the edge with SMac on his side. Haslett, was forced to endure Shanny's insistence on converting to 3-4, endure Vinny's incompetence and saw almost no investment in defensive talent over his tenure. The results were all too predictable.

 

Shanny vs Gruden? This has to be Shanahan in a lock. Like him or not, the man had a Superbowl ring and was borderline genius at the run game. Time after time, he took no-name RB's and turned them into 1000 yd rushers and household names. If that was easy, everyone would be doing it. Gruden has done well,... nothing really,...yet.

[Riggo-toni]

Shanahan has won 1 playoff game without Terrell Davis. Couldn't even win with just Elway. Gee, what a genius being able to win with a HOF QB, a borderline HOF TE, an 1800 yard rusher, and a ProBowl WR.

Yeah, he got lots of rushing yards from mediocre talent like Gary Olandis and Mike Andersen, but what did it get him really? His undersized zone blocking lines stopped being all that effective after Alex Gibbs left and rule changes for player safety limited their arsenal. Furthermore, they were bad in pass protection. Shamster's schemes became outdated, but Lobsterman was too arrogant to admit it. Kyle is a better offensive strategist. He made Matt Freaking Schäub look good, and made RG3 look like a franchise QB.

Gruden is average with little to no ability to adapt.

[FuriousD]

Due respect Riggo but your loathing for the man is clouding your judgement.

 

HOF QB, a borderline HOF TE, an 1800 yard rusher, and a ProBowl WR? Shanahan's offense helped make them what they are. That's not too hard to figure, is it? And it stands to reason the O-line's pass-pro helped that HOF QB find the borderline HOF TE and the ProBowl WR because they didn't make it there on their blocking skills.

 

Finally, how can you forget that Shanahan and his "outdated scheme" once again created something out of nothing in the form of Alfred Morris just a couple of short years ago and without the benefit of Alex Gibbs?!

 

I'm glad we can agree he has a Superbowl ring, tho'.

[TheCoach22]

Extremeskins makes me laugh. I don't come around here as often when the team is not doing well because people tend to overreact and think all of our coaches and players need to be fired. I can't stand a bunch of the negativity.

I don't think any conclusions can be made about anybody - Gruden included - until after next season. It just takes time and patience to change everything about an organization from top to bottom. We still don't have the players we need and the players are still learning the offensive and defensive systems we are installing. Our running game looks like Martyball's running game when he was 0-5.

As cliche as it sounds, all of our players need to build upon every game rep they are given. Take a look at Kirk, he is steadily improving each week and is a legit, functional, NFL QB. At least 95% of everyone on this board said we were going to win 3 or 4 games. Well we have won 3 and it's only the halfway point. Stop being so impatient and let things run their course. The Redskins are an undeniably better organization now than last year.

re: The OP

Our current regime is leaps and bounds better than their predecessors.

Also, to anybody saying Gruden is on the hot seat: Snyder is not going to ****can Gruden with $15m left on his contract, plus however much money the other coaches are guaranteed. Besides, if that happens, it just starts the clock over on putting in a new system, culture change, etc, that comes along with a new coaching staff. No thank you.

You cannot compare giving a proven coach time to turnover a roster in 2001 to giving an unproven commodity time to grow while a proven GM builds a roster to work with in 2015.

In 2001 people were still learning the name Snyder but what was clear was his impatience (firing Norvo the Clown with a winning record and three games left in the 2000 season on the heals of turning over a roster that had just won the division). Marty was the guy who Snyder was suppose to learn patience with. That team had Kent Graham and Tony Banks taking snaps after Jeff George melted down. Marty was taking flack from Darrell Green and veterans pissed about the Okie drills and bed checks in training camp... Started awful and finished .500. If given time that coach had a track record and pedigree to suggest he would get it right. Snyder screwed up, he admits it today.

Jay has his brother's resume and three decent seasons as an OC to hang his hat on. He has shown nothing to suggest he has the capacity to figure it out. The predictions of 3 or 4 wins this season had more to do with last season's record and question marks about Jay himself than the roster GM SM had assembled for this season. With the way the division has unfolded five or six wins would not be progress IMHO. As for eating money, Snyder doesn't care. If SM says to him, "one more good draft and this team can be a perennial playoff team, two more offseasons and we can be in the talk for a SB but I gotta tell you this boob and his buddies are in the way," Snyder would personally escort Jay to the Gruden Thanksgiving table, stuff him like a turkey and serve him to Jon before the pumpkin pie was cut.

As for fear of starting over because Snyder's Redskins have a history of impulsive change? I get it, but a) that alone is not reason to stay the course, Snyder has never had a true GM selecting "his guy," c) if GM SM has someone in mind and started shaping the roster for what he sees as the future then we would not be starting over, but getting rid of the placeholder and taking the next step.

Shanny v Gruden? By the end of Shanny this team was beat. Right now there is some optimism, youth, hope and pieces. Not sure any of that is Jay though, it might be in spite of him. Team still lacks discipline... Basic fundamental mistakes occur every game... No ID yet on either side of the ball... Rarely or ever does the team play 4 quarters or three teams (offense/defense/teams)... Adjustments are unheard of... Two games in a row following "code red" and a bye we have spotted the opponent huge leads... Etc. if improvements are not made the back half, this means at least 4-4 and an overall record of 7-9 I would like to see Jay gone. You selected the end of next year as a gage, I am curious why? The only argument for this would be keeping the offense for the players another year but they could get a defensive minded coach to take over, find an WCO guy to be coordinator (hopefully one with more imagination and flexibility) and accomplish more.

One more Marty flashback... It was clear he wanted to win games 7-6 every week if he could. He was old school and tough and a throwback. Shanny wanted you to think he was brilliant and he was a ZBS and WCO Walsh guy. What area Jay's core beliefs and ID? He is WCO in scheme but he spouts off the tough guy talk about power FB and grinding it out. Jay tries to talk GM SM football but his track record does not suggest it is his MO. I think Scot would love to find a Marty 2015 to lead his brand... I don't think that is Jay. I really wish we had hired Zimmer, not because the Vikings are winning... I had advocated for Zimmer during the search and I think he is better suited to lead a Scot built team.

[CBass1724]

Long post.

 

Thank you for the response.

 

My point was that systems take time to implement and good teams don't jell overnight.  We did not look like we could beat a high school team with Marty those first 5 games.  Then bam, we are the hottest team in the league to end the year.  See Joe Gibbs changing systems and he was NOT a proven coach and was an unproven commodity at the time.  It worked there too.  Not saying Jay is as good as them, I'm just citing examples.

 

I guess I'm not a "Jay hater" like you and everyone appears to be.  We have a pretty young team with a young coach and a new GM. The reason I chose next season is because I think 3 years is enough time (albeit on the lower end) to see whether we are trending up or down.  It's more about sample size and giving Jay another off-season with a real GM picking players.  There is zero doubt we are better this year than last.  Why give up on a coach who is improving?  I could see jumping ship if we were going backwards, but nobody can argue that we are.

 

There is no coach who can magically fix this team.  I just believe we have a talent and depth issue on defense. On offense, it's all about execution.  We make too many mistakes.  That is fixable to me.

 

Anyway, good talk.  We just disagree, which is cool.

[skinny21]

I was as fed up with Shanahan as the next guy, and I see some signs of improvement with Guden, but I'm not sure how we could give the edge to Gruden as of yet. Shanahan had a better pedigree, hired his son (and drafted Griffin) - which led to the Redskins best season in many years and the best rookie year by a qb. I think we can all agree that were Griffin healthy, we had a chance at a Super Bowl title in 2012. We also (likely) would have had a far better 2013 season. The team went downhill quickly after that of course. With Gruden, we're still on the uphill climb. The good news is that we don't know how good we can be with Gruden.

Barry vs Haslett is tough. Pedigree (amazingly) goes to Haslett. I like Barry more, but he hasn't exactly paid dividends as of yet (and he has a better personnel guy). Also on the uphill climb here, so we don't know where the threshold is under Barry. Haslett's D was (mostly) terrible against the pass, sometimes historically so, but Barry is in the same boat with the run D. Pretty much a push, though I see some potential in Barry.

Plenty of room for improvement with Gruden and Barry, so let's see how this plays out... at least through this season. Given the amount of injuries, the number of young guys playing (and gaining experience), the idea that SM should continue to upgrade the roster, and the idea that the systems are still relatively new... I'm also comfortable going into next year with the same staff.

[TheCoach22]

Thank you for the response.

My point was that systems take time to implement and good teams don't jell overnight. We did not look like we could beat a high school team with Marty those first 5 games. Then bam, we are the hottest team in the league to end the year. See Joe Gibbs changing systems and he was NOT a proven coach and was an unproven commodity at the time. It worked there too. Not saying Jay is as good as them, I'm just citing examples.

I guess I'm not a "Jay hater" like you and everyone appears to be. We have a pretty young team with a young coach and a new GM. The reason I chose next season is because I think 3 years is enough time (albeit on the lower end) to see whether we are trending up or down. It's more about sample size and giving Jay another off-season with a real GM picking players. There is zero doubt we are better this year than last. Why give up on a coach who is improving? I could see jumping ship if we were going backwards, but nobody can argue that we are.

There is no coach who can magically fix this team. I just believe we have a talent and depth issue on defense. On offense, it's all about execution. We make too many mistakes. That is fixable to me.

Anyway, good talk. We just disagree, which is cool.

Cool. Listen, I don't hate Jay... I just don't like him as much as I thought I would. I thought he would be a Chuckie type personality with a little more Chris Farley for laughs at times... Unfortunately the hasn't shown much personality at all.

We are improving, just can't say it is because of Jay. The improved units are overseen by new coaches... The side of the ball he is responsible for, as you said, still doesn't execute. That is a problem. I personally think Barry as much better players than Haz ever had... He doesn't let them do much. See Blache, Greg and Nolan, Mike... Barry has persona but His Unit doesn't play with the same intensity nor are they allowed to.

[FFODC]

People keep saying they want to move to a 4-3 but we are essentially playing that now

We have a 1-tech with Knighton (ugh) and Golston

A 3-tech in Baker and Paea

A 5-tech in Hatcher and Jean-Francois

Rush end is Kerrigan

Switching to a 4-3 changes none of that. The only difference would be Murphy's OLB position would get moved off the line more. But it would still be substituted in Nickel and Dime packages.

[RandyHolt]

I always hated the 3-4. I feel like it requires too many specialized players, and its not run enough in college to accurately grade players that need to bulk up / slim down to fit in.

 

We need a nose to make it work.... well that's the first reason to avoid it, IMO. That hard to find 350 pound tank gets injured, then what?

 

Someone inevitably chimes in, that we spend an awful lot of time in 4-3 front anyways..... so why the hell bother with the charade of the 3-4? 

 

Especially when it sets teams back years to implement.  And watching those former DL in pass coverage, seems an exercise in futility. Most recently Murphy in open space, just falling over....

[FFODC]

We play a 1-gap nose. Baker was more than serviceable. We can use a 43 nose to play at our nose. But we need to replace Knighton

There would be a loss at the OLB position. On a 53 man roster we can have 2-3 play rush end and maybe 1 play SAM LB. Kerrigan and Preston smith could stay. Guys like Murphy and jeffcoat, I dunno

[pjfootballer]

Our 3-4 has been terrible this year because of our ILBers play and the OLBers pinching down too much.

[skinny21]

Our 3-4 has been terrible this year because of our ILBers play and the OLBers pinching down too much.

Play calling seems an issue as well (as you alluded to with OLbs not playing contain), but I'm not positive on this point. Could be the secondary isn't making enough plays in the run game (22? missed tackles between Goldson and T. Robinson).

[The Wicked Wop]

Our 3-4 has been terrible this year because of our ILBers play and the OLBers pinching down too much.

 

Very much the truth and this was supposedly Barry's area along with the D-Line as there is so much interconnection.  

 

Kerrigan was rather vocal and upset with the dismissal of Brian Baker.  I understand having to many coaches in the kitchen especially around what should be the center of our defense our linebackers.  Kerrigan was always going to have an uphill climb coming into the season as his late offseason surgery and missing virtually all of training camp has that effect.  Training year around is no longer an option but a requirement so seeing Kerrigan struggle has not been that shocking to me.  

 

Barry made this even more difficult for him and the Linebackers in general IMO.  This to me was always the issue with bring a guy like Barry in and the post game broadcast from Sunday really brought this home to me.  He was standing outside the locking room door somewhat cheerleading his defensive players after the game which is great and all if you want to be liked, but I want a DC that puts fire in the belly's of his players.  Perhaps that's why I've been really impressed with Perry Fewell's work.  Given the injuries and lack of pass rush Fewell's work with the DB's is actually quite impressive.  This seems a 180 vs. Morris' work with the DB's last year. Morris was a similar players coach as Barry and perhaps that's something our coaches need to quit being so concerned with, especially when we have a losing record.

[Skinsinparadise]

I was listening to Cooley's Saints scouting report.  He got into Barry's scheme some.  He says studying it its mostly a read and react defense -- in his view, its not aggressive.  In his view, Wade Phillips' scheme is aggressive-exotic blitz heavy and different than what Barry runs outside of the one gap philosophy.    That's how it felt to me too without studying it intently, I've commented previously it feels very much like the Blache's bend but don't break scheme -- corners don't play tight, lot of zone, not much blitzing, cover 3.

 

Cooley's view is its read and react scheme and the problem is the players don't read and react very well.  It seemed like he didn't want to take a shot at Barry but sort of did so indirectly -- saying if they play their typical soft coverage scheme, Brees will eat up the defense because its not hard to pick apart -- and the players are poorly positioned when it comes to stopping the run, citing for example how the ILBs should be filling the gaps especially on the edges at times instead of doubling up directly behind the edge LBs. 

 

Cooley said if the Saints run big on the Redskins it would be sad because he's not impressed with the Saints on the ground and he would be so frustrated in that case that he wouldn't even do a film review. He said especially this Sunday, he would be much more aggressive then they've been so far and take chances.

 

Not saying Cooley is the be all and end all but I do find his reviews at least entertaining.  He seems to be relatively impressed with Jay's passing schemes, unimpressed with the running game and specifically the layers of incompetency with players -- in his view poor blocking on the line, Wrs and Te's missing assignments and the running backs have inconsistent approaches.   He hasn't flat out said he's unimpressed with Barry but I got that sense this week (unless it was temporary frustration) that is what he was thinking.  He doesn't seem to think the defense is schemed up well at least at the moment.  If I recall he had some optimism earlier in the season.

[RandyHolt]

I have feared BDB from day 1 when Barry said he will be aggressive; like most of the other recent DCs here, it's all lies.

 

Thanks for the great write up of Cooley's comments. 

 

Barry does dial up his aggressiveness a little more often than a Blache, but for some reason seems to like his LBs and DBs pinned inside vs the run.  Bringing 5 as his go to blitz has become too easy to block. 

[Skinsinparadise]

I have feared BDB from day 1 when Barry said he will be aggressive, like most of the other recent DCs here, it's all lies.

 

 

 

Haz himself said the previous season (2014) that they'd be more aggressive then in 2013 alluding to Shanny holding him back.  Hence the joke became that Haz was unleashed in 2014.   But as Keim and others joked about before this season, each regime talks about they will be more aggressive in the coming year, etc -- no one says they are going to be for example more passive -- but it doesn't always bear out in reality. 

[skinny21]

I just don't know what to think of this D anymore. From scheme, to players, the lack of gap control, lack of pass rush, the injuries and the subsequent need to protect a depleted secondary, OLBs not playing contain, the missed tackles, the surprising play of Blackmon/Jarrett, the fact that they started off strong and that it's the first year in a new system, and so on. Just weird, confusing and frustrating.

[Skinsinparadise]

I just don't know what to think of this D anymore. From scheme, to players, the lack of gap control, lack of pass rush, the injuries and the subsequent need to protect a depleted secondary, OLBs not playing contain, the missed tackles, the surprising play of Blackmon/Jarrett, the fact that they started off strong and that it's the first year in a new system, and so on. Just weird, confusing and frustrating.

 

On topic, and going purely with Cooley and granted Cooley could be fickle and change his mind at times -- he comes off to me as when he digs deeper into film study -- the passing offense is better than many think and you'll see improvement ahead whereas the defense is even worse than it appears and it might look worse going forward.  He's said multiple times that it could have been even worse for the defense in multiple games if the opponents saw this and that and exploited it.  Ranking 7th in the league in time of possession -- the offense is doing its part to help the defense.  Plus arguably the tougher part of the schedule for the defense is ahead and the tough part of the schedule for the offense is mostly behind us (sans Carolina).  

 

He doesn't come off to me as thinking that the defense is overachieving -- i.e., lets say they have had some injuries but boy is Barry coaching them up well, etc.   For me personally, I am stuck on neutral on Barry.   I am not in the camp that he's the guy or not the guy.  I am definitely not in the camp that slam dunk we got a gem in him or what a great improvement, etc.  Maybe?  Will see. 

[Wildbunny]

We're coming from so far, that it's not hard for Barry to be an improvment. I still thinks that he's hiding many of our defenses flaws right now. Because, yes, it could be really, really worst. And honestly, there's nothing real new regarding the fact that our ILB corps suck, and that our safety's do as well.

 

That's a recurring problem we've had for years.

[Darrell Green Fan]

Obviously it's too early to form a conclussion but to date I don't understand how anyone can give Barry the nod. His pass defense is better because they have better players. Not to say this is a great secondary but let's not forget Hazmat had Clark, Amerson and Biggers playing prominant roles. He took the same front 7, with a few minor improvements along the D line, and that group regressed big time this season.

I Hated Haz and I'm glad he's gone. But sadly our objection to the Barry hire at least to date seems accurate.

[Wildbunny]

Better players in the secondary?

When we're playing with Hall/Culliver/Breeland being hurt throughout the whole season and we never had those three on the field at the same time? That we're realying on a vet min + incentives in Blackmon, a new 5th or 6th round safety rookie to play nickel corner in Kyshoen Jarrett...

 

I don't know where you get that stupid idea that we have a better secondary compared to last year... Our safeties are still a nightmare, even if Goldson is doing ok, he's whiffed on quite many tackles, and T. Robinson has been even worse. Check how he was raped and abused late in the game against Tampa, where only Breeland saved our asses from what would have then be a L.

[skinny21]

I hear you Wildbunny. Of course, you could argue that Blackmon is better than Biggers (even if he was brought in off the street straight into a starting role), and that Jarrett might be the best nickel corner we've had in a while (even though he's a rookie). Culliver and Breeland have both missed time, but when they've played, they're better than Amerson and Breeland from last year (Breeland having another year under his belt).

[Skinsinparadise]

To defend Darrell Green Fan's point.  Jarrett looks like a good find and seems miles better than Biggers in the slot. And, based on that alone its arguably a better secondary.  Speaking of Cooley, he would go on and on about Biggers being an outright train wreck in the slot when he did his film study.  

 

I think strong safety is equally bad this year and last year.  Otherwise, Goldson is an improvement IMO (and Cooleys') over last years banged up Ryan Clark.   Culliver when healthy is a clear improvement as the #2 or #1 corner -- plus even though Hall has been banged up, at least he's going to play versus missing all of last season.  Heck even Blackmon looks all right.   I think its far from crazy to suggest that the secondary talent wise is better than last year.  Is it elite?  Of course not.  Better than last year, I think its hard to argue otherwise. Scot IMO did a good job to improve the secondary talent wise from last year -- looking forward to seeing all three corners on the field finally, though.

 

Probably not the best day to make this point, assuming Brees is about to tear the Redskins secondary apart as he has done to other teams.

[Wildbunny]

OK. But then none of them being efficient had anything to do with Barry or Fewell...