The Gun Control Debate Thread

[Chew]

disappointed Picard

 

and the local Sheriff's department deemed him worthy of carrying concealed lol

 

'Murica.

[visionary]

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/chuck-schumer-gun-control-background-checks-223223

Gun-control group pushes Schumer, he obliges

 

Under heavy pressure from an influential gun-control group, Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) said Monday that he would introduce legislation expanding universal background checks — following through on a months-long pledge to bring forward the bill.

 

The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence had organized a conference call for Monday afternoon designed to call out Schumer — normally a reliable ally of gun-control groups — for not yet introducing the bill. In a statement announcing the call, the organization proclaimed: “Senator Schumer falls through on promise to Brady Campaign.”
 

But shortly before the conference call was set to begin, Schumer’s office said he planned to introduce the bill later Monday. The Brady Campaign also flooded Schumer’s office with more than 1,800 calls, a spokesman for the group said, as well as waging a social media campaign pushing the New York senator.

 

“As the author of the [1994] Brady law, Sen. Schumer of course agrees that there should be universal background checks,” Schumer spokesman Matt House said Monday. “To avoid any misunderstanding, he will introduce his universal background check bill today.”

Edited May 16, 2016 by visionary

[Larry]

Politico: Gun-control group pushes Schumer, he obliges

It has about as much chance of passing (hell, of getting a vote) as DC statehood, or making Arnold Schwartzneger eligible to be President.

But, hey.

[Burgold]

@21 you can drink, @18 you can vote/be drafted @ 16 you can drive, but @4 you can use guns. Really?

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2016/05/21/armed-with-guns-and-constitutions-the-patriot-movement-sees-america-under-threat/?hpid=hp_rhp-top-table-main_constitutionalguard908pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

 

REDMOND, Ore. — B.J. Soper took aim with his AR-15 semiautomatic rifle and fired a dozen shots at a human silhouette target. Soper’s wife and their 16-year-old daughter practiced drawing pistols. Then Soper helped his 4-year-old daughter, in pink sneakers and a ponytail, work on her marksmanship with a .22-caliber rifle.

Deep in the heart of a vast U.S. military training ground, surrounded by spent shotgun shells and juniper trees blasted to shreds, the Central Oregon Constitutional Guard was conducting its weekly firearms training.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Once past the shock of the age, there is at least an argument to be made for teaching children responsible firearm use and handling. Though not knowing anything else about the people, I can't say if this is the case.

[Burgold]

Once past the shock of the age, there is at least an argument to be made for teaching children responsible firearm use and handling. Though not knowing anything else about the people, I can't say if this is the case.

I suppose, but then you get into the militia thing and protecting themselves from a government that's coming to get them. Still, I don't think there's really any such ting as responsible firearm use at 4 years old. It baffles me how we can put an age limit on the right to vote, but not one on the right to shoot. 

 

I think the right age would be 12 for a gun "learner's permit" and 18 for the full licence. I'm sure that would be unpopular though. Heck, no one even brings it up as an issue.

[Major Harris]

I'll actually read the article next week

Edited May 23, 2016 by Major Harris

[Burgold]

The article I posted was about a guy in a militia who was worried about government overreach. Not stereotyping. Just working with the facts that we were discussing.

[Major Harris]

The article I posted was about a guy in a militia who was worried about government overreach. Not stereotyping. Just working with the facts that we were discussing.

Dam, i get what i get when i don't read the article. My bad

[TheGreatBuzz]

I suppose, but then you get into the militia thing and protecting themselves from a government that's coming to get them. Still, I don't think there's really any such ting as responsible firearm use at 4 years old. It baffles me how we can put an age limit on the right to vote, but not one on the right to shoot. 

 

I think the right age would be 12 for a gun "learner's permit" and 18 for the full licence. I'm sure that would be unpopular though. Heck, no one even brings it up as an issue.

Well the guys freak show opinions on the government aside, I think it is a good idea to teach kids about responsible gun handling.  I would start with something less dangerous like a pellet gun though.  I don't have kids and don't know anything about them other than that I can't stand them so what a kid should do or shouldn't do is beyond me.  I would have to hear more about what you would be able to do with a "gun learners permit" and a "gun license".  But I would be open to some meeting in the middle in regards to this, though I am at least willing to negotiate on most things unlike others in my party.  I could see putting a limit on the gun caliber depending on age.  Maybe nothing bigger than a .22 until age X.  To me, that would be like letting your kids have a 4 wheeler.  Sure, they aren't driving a car but there is still plenty of risk if used irresponsibly. 

[Burgold]

I might be able to deal with a pellet gun (as long as we're negotiating) but a .22 still has plenty of lethal power. More, I still think that guns are a serious issue. I don't think they should be used by kids until they reach a certain level of maturity. Part of it is just that I've read so many articles about kids shooting kids accidentally or when showing off. Part of it is that probably that I've lived my life separate from the gun culture in a suburban environment where help is pretty close.

[TheGreatBuzz]

A .22 while still "lethal" is FAR less likely to kill than say a .223.  I think just not letting kids touch a firearm until a certain age isn't any more responsible than just giving them a gun and walking away.  That's assuming though that the parent is teaching them proper and safe gun handling and not just teaching them it's a toy.  Especially if they are going to be around guns.  I'd be interested to know the numbers of these accidental shootings by kids if they were taught safe gun handling or not as children.  I'd be willing to consider some sort of license for the parent before they could have guns in a house with kids and let the kids handle the guns.   One thing that you and I agree 100% on is that something needs to be done.  We just don't see eye to eye on what needs to be done.  Though if we are both willing to have a meaningful conversation and give a little, we can probably come to an agreement.  To bad those in power aren't as grown up as we are. 

 

EDIT:  Though I will say since you admit you haven't ever been a part of the "gun world", you may not be the best person to come up with the rules.  That is kind of like a bunch of old men deciding what is appropriate for a women to do with/to her body.

Edited May 23, 2016 by TheGreatBuzz

[Kosher Ham]

I could see we have made some headway here. 

More progress in less time than the gov't. 

 

I think eight is a more than appropriate age to start to teach responsibility of handling a firearm. 

I like the idea of a caliber limitation for ownership...I do feel that in a controlled environment ( range), any firearm should be at someones disposal to learn about. 

 

Even as a suburbanite, gun violence happens, if I recall correctly, typically that is where most of it happens. 

 

I do appreciate the reference to a 4-wheeler as far as danger and responsibility. 

I also knew someone that was incapacitated with a 22, giving the killer a chance to finish via another method. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

I could see we have made some headway here. 

More progress in less time than the gov't. 

 

I think eight is a more than appropriate age to start to teach responsibility of handling a firearm. 

I like the idea of a caliber limitation for ownership...I do feel that in a controlled environment ( range), any firearm should be at someones disposal to learn about. 

 

Even as a suburbanite, gun violence happens, if I recall correctly, typically that is where most of it happens. 

 

I do appreciate the reference to a 4-wheeler as far as danger and responsibility. 

I also knew someone that was incapacitated with a 22, giving the killer a chance to finish via another method. 

Too bad the government will never have bipartisan, meaningful headway.  Such a shame.

 

I don't know anything about children and what is appropriate at what age so I will defer there.  But I also like the idea of a controlled environment (gun range with a legit RSO watching) a kid being able to learn with a bigger gun.

 

I know people have been killed with a .22 but the likelihood is less then with a larger caliber.  You have to start somewhere and the smallest caliber (reasonably available) seems like a good spot.  .22 ammo is also like 50 cents for 1000 rounds so you can afford to get your kid plenty of practice.  I just don't want to completely take guns away from kids in every situation.  Many parents take their kids hunting as bonding time and teaching a useful skill.  I would like that to continue in a reasonable manner.

 

Now someone take the underlined part and twist it into something I clearly don't mean.  That is how a gun control debate must be handled according to the example set by our leaders.

[Burgold]

 One thing that you and I agree 100% on is that something needs to be done.  We just don't see eye to eye on what needs to be done.  Though if we are both willing to have a meaningful conversation and give a little, we can probably come to an agreement. 

This is a very hopeful statement. I have always been willing to listen and am a ready student. I don't only shout from the mountaintop or the soap box

 

I think there are steps we can and should take to reduce the risks associated with handgun and am a huge proponent of prevention whether we are talking about nutrition, education, health, or guns. Prevention can go too far though... for example, if a child grows up in too sterile an environment their immune system will be weak and they will be more susceptible to harm. Anti-bullying is great, but we do need children to develop mental callouses to deal with the difficulties and unfairness of the real world. Zero tolerance is generally stupid too.

 

So, I want changes that don't need us to live in utopia for them to work. Some of that will require compromise to a degree I don't like, but I want changes that make accidents less likely and increase the difficulty for the bad guys and the monsters in our world. We may be far apart. We may not be. I suspect if we sat in a room for a half hour we could come up with a strategy that would make both of us pretty happy. After all, what we care most about is the safety of ourselves, family, friends, community, and nation. 

[China]

Can't we at least mandate some sort of training to minimize incidents like this:

 

Woman shoots self in foot outside gun show

 

HENRICO COUNTY, Va. – A woman was hospitalized after police said she shot herself in the foot outside of Richmond International Raceway Sunday night.

 

The annual Richmond Gun Show had wrapped up earlier in the evening.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[mistertim]

Can't we at least mandate some sort of training to minimize incidents like this:

 

Woman shoots self in foot outside gun show

 

HENRICO COUNTY, Va. – A woman was hospitalized after police said she shot herself in the foot outside of Richmond International Raceway Sunday night.

 

The annual Richmond Gun Show had wrapped up earlier in the evening.

 

Click on the link for the full article

She was just standing her grown against the tyranny of her foot.

[Larry]

She was just standing her grown against the tyranny of her foot.

Maybe her foot behaved in a threatening manner.

We should wait for all the facts, before jumping (oops. Poor choice of words.) to any conclusion.

[tshile]

Can't we at least mandate some sort of training to minimize incidents like this:

Why? It helps balance all the other ways we fight natural selection

[twa]

each kid is different, a responsible parent cures most ills....too bad we can't mandate that 

[China]

Ohio man shoots up own home with AK-47 after imagining a burglar

 

A man in Warren, Ohio is facing charges after he shot up his own home because he feared that noises could be a burglar.

 

WKBN reported that 28-year-old William Chesser contacted 911 dispatchers to report a possible break in. Officers arrived on the scene and found Chesser waiting in his car.

 

Chesser told officers that he became paranoid after hearing cars driving past his home and knocking sounds coming from his windows, according to a police report. Believing that noises in his home could be a burglar, Chesser said that he ran into one of the upstairs bedrooms, jumped from a two-story window, and then fled to a neighbor’s home to call 911.

 

Police at the scene observed that the front door was kicked in and several windows were broken. After noticing the smell of gun powder, officers observed bullet holes in the stairway wall.

 

An AK-47 and spent shell casings were found laying on the floor in a hallway near the stairway, the police report said. A .38 special revolver was also recovered from the home.

 

Officers said that Chesser admitted to firing both guns because he suspected that a burglar was making noises by breaking into his home.

 

The police report stated that marijuana and other drug contraband were found at the scene.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[Burgold]

I was about to defend this guy. You do have the right to shoot up your own property. Then, I read about the drugs. Now, I'm back to realizing this is just another story of a responsible gun owner.

[Larry]

I keep remembering a Doonsbury comic from back, I think in the 70s.

Major characters are Zonker Harris, drugged-up hippie. And his Uncle Duke, who among other things has been a former CIA operative.

The scene, Zonker is in a hospital bed, being visited by Uncle Duke, and visited by two ATF agents.

"So, Mr. Duke. You were lying in bed, passed out drunk. And you had forgotten that your nephew was due to come home from college today".

"So hearing a noise from downstairs, your action was to grab the 50 caliber machine gun which you had smuggled home from Vietnam. Go to the head of the stairs, and open fire without warning and without even attempting to determine who it was?"

"Yes, officer. That's correct."

"Isn't a 50 caliber machine gun a rather heavy weapon to use to deter burglars?"

"What if they try to hide behind the refrigerator?"

[Jumbo]

 

[pjfootballer]

^^ Hilarious!