Bozo the kKklown Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 (edited) When R. Kelly apologizes for what he did, I need you all to keep the same energy. Edited October 3, 2019 by BenningRoadSkin 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 I have no problem with Jean's brother publicly forgiving her, and giving her a hug. As a Christian, it's what he's expected to do. And as a Christian, I'm reminded of how I sometimes fall short in the compassion department. Because I feel like I couldn't do it. Family can grieve in any way they see fit, and nobody should be criticizing that. Now this judge I have a different opinion. What she did was unprofessional. Does she hug every convicted murderer in her court? We all know the answer to that. How this case ended showed a startlingly amount of grace for a woman who laughed about MLK's assassination, and made disparaging remarks about her own fellow black officers. I really hope the performance she put on in that courtroom was genuine, but....I doubt it. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSSkinz Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 I have no issue with that family forgiving her, that's their business so even though I thought it was odd to watch the courtroom hugging I understand what the family was trying to accomplish with that gesture. With that being said we still have a justice system and that police officer still needs to be held accountable. 99% of the time I refrain from getting involved in the over the top rant style threads but this one pisses me off. The woman is a cop and can't possibly be that ****ing stupid. You can call it an accident all you want but the man is dead and he's not coming back and 6 or 7 years in prison for murder is not justice? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said: I have no problem with Jean's brother publicly forgiving her, and giving her a hug. As a Christian, it's what he's expected to do. And as a Christian, I'm reminded of how I sometimes fall short in the compassion department. Because I feel like I couldn't do it. Family can grieve in any way they see fit, and nobody should be criticizing that. Now this judge I have a different opinion. What she did was unprofessional. Does she hug every convicted murderer in her court? We all know the answer to that. How this case ended showed a startlingly amount of grace for a woman who laughed about MLK's assassination, and made disparaging remarks about her own fellow black officers. I really hope the performance she put on in that courtroom was genuine, but....I doubt it. it speaks the larger point of a lack of reciprocation when minorities show a level of grace that is hard to comprehend. saw it when those folks were murdered in the church in SC. We are constantly displaying that level of grace in the face of system that refuses to acknowledge our humanity and in fact constantly reminds us just how little they value our lives. As I mentioned before, I won't criticize anyone related to that man for how they respond, but I damn sure don't want to see it from one who's job it is to adjudicate in a fair manner. Everything about her reeked of performance art and the world fell at her damn feet. That is a privilege that will never be afforded to anyone who looks like me or any children I bring into this world. everybody knows how this situation would have played out if the situation were reversed and you had a black man killing a white woman in her home after "mistakenly" entering the wrong apartment. I can damn well guarantee, no judge would be ready to hug that man after giving him an extremely favorable sentence. I just can't rock with people who refuse to acknowledge those basic facts. Its as clear to my eyes as the sky is blue and 1 + 1 = 2 Edited October 3, 2019 by StillUnknown 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Are we sure the biggest factor here is the race of the people involved? Women of all races receive lighter sentences than white men for the same crimes. Consider what this looks like if you were to keep the races the same, but swapped the genders. A woman coming home and finding a strange man inside is a familiar nightmare scenario. No one would entertain the idea that it was an honest mistake. No judge would be hugging that particular convicted killer. Im sure race played a role, racism is real and undeniable in our justice system. I’m just not sure that in this specific situation it’s the most significant bias in play. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 17 hours ago, Destino said: Forgiveness has never held anyone back. Holding a grudge sure as hell does though. The examples around the world of people that can't let **** go and the suffering that it has caused are easy to see. Forgiveness is the only way for people, harmed in a way that can never be undone, to take their lives back. The only way to avoid being defined by a wound that nothing can make right. Forgiveness does not mean forgetting. It just means letting go of the personal animosity. I can forgive someone and still think they should be punished appropriately. I dont really disagree with you on any of this. I think I may be more amoral (?) than most? Im not sure if thats the word in looking for. I dont have a personal connection in this particular story outside of the fact that im black and a male like the guy who died. And even then I dont see this as a black guy shot by a white cop thing in this case, so I dont really have much of an emotional reaction to it. If im being honest, the only thing I "felt" when I watched the clip of him forgiving her and asking to hug her was how weak that felt to me. I dont really know why. And im not trying to say forgiveness is weak because I do understand how you can be so caught up on a grudge that it holds you back. Fiance does that a lot and I tell her often she has to let that **** go. So I get why forgiveness is important. And I understand how it is even more important for someone with a religious background. But I dont feel like forgiveness is whats needed in this country as far as the justice system is concerned. And I guess because I dont have much of an emotional reaction to the story, thats what im focused on. I dont know. Maybe I am wrong. I just dont feel like it. I dont know how to really explain it well. 14 hours ago, Destino said: Im sure race played a role, racism is real and undeniable in our justice system. I’m just not sure that in this specific situation it’s the most significant bias in play. Its definitely not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 The problem with the forgiveness BS is that the people who pushed Xtianity down our throats (slave owners) didn’t then and their ancestors don’t now practice this. Where was the forgiveness for OJ? For the 9/11 attackers? What about the undocumented immigrants that have committed crimes? I don’t see anyone asking or expecting the victims’ family members of these perpetrators to forgive. This article expresses it better than I ever could. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 People still dont mess with Vick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 1 hour ago, The Sisko said: The problem with the forgiveness BS is that the people who pushed Xtianity down our throats (slave owners) didn’t then and their ancestors don’t now practice this. Where was the forgiveness for OJ? For the 9/11 attackers? What about the undocumented immigrants that have committed crimes? I don’t see anyone asking or expecting the victims’ family members of these perpetrators to forgive. This article expresses it better than I ever could. If any of the victims families of the crimes you listed went to an average Christian church, they’d likely be advised to forgive those that wronged them. Do you really think priests are in there asking about the skin color of criminals and then advising forgiveness to parishioners only if the answer is “white?” It’s an individual act. Some people can do it, and some can never let go of the hatred. and some, apparently, imagine that holding onto that hatred is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Destino said: If any of the victims families of the crimes you listed went to an average Christian church, they’d likely be advised to forgive those that wronged them. Do you really think priests are in there asking about the skin color of criminals and then advising forgiveness to parishioners only if the answer is “white?” It’s an individual act. Some people can do it, and some can never let go of the hatred. and some, apparently, imagine that holding onto that hatred is a good thing. I’m not even going to dignify the silliness of your first paragraph with a response. As for your final sentence, it seems some people that usually just so happen to be of a certain hue have an expectation that the hatred should be dismissed while others of the opposite hue have no such expectation. Oddly enough, your final sentence applies perfectly to a country that’s still outraged over the OJ Simpson case. Hello pot, meet kettle. Aside from OJ, I cited a number of examples in my post of whites not being asked this question. How many examples can you find where whites are asked this or even just offer it up voluntarily? I’m not saying it never happens, just that the expectation isn’t there nearly as much as it is for us. IMO the reasons for it are rooted in the need to assuage white guilt and the history of our being expected/forced to sit quietly while our people were treated violently while OTOH whites could and did immediately yell for mob justice or the cops. Same difference. Well, the time for that 💩 is over. Edited October 4, 2019 by The Sisko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simmsy Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Ok, lets temporarily take out the fact of race or sex and say that this women didn't do it because of any type of racial bias. Who in this thread, could honestly say that if they were to walk into their apartment, see a guy chilling on the couch eating ice cream, their first instinct would be to pull a gun and just start blasting? That reaction alone is not normal of any human being, let alone a "trained" police officer. I don't know why cops get more lenient sentences for breaking the law, shouldn't it be the other way around? 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 family members have to figure out how to move on. if that includes an act showing forgiveness (or whatever you want to call it), then that's their thing and their right and i won't judge them for it. i will judge myself based on how I believe I would feel and act, and how I view I may fall short compared to what others do. I don't think I have the strength to forgive a person like that, in that situation. But I'm not going to judge the family. I'm not going to let my personal opinions dictate how they can/can't move on with their lives, that would be incredibly selfish among other things. The judge.... that's unacceptable and in my view, which includes no real understanding of what is/isn't ethical in these situations, that should be reported to the bar association (or whatever oversees judges) and should be considered a disqualifying act (unless it can be shown she does this all the time, in which case correcting it so she stops doing it for everyone seems appropriate) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 3 hours ago, The Sisko said: I’m not even going to dignify the silliness of your first paragraph with a response. OK Quote As for your final sentence, it seems some people that usually just so happen to be of a certain hue have an expectation that the hatred should be dismissed while others of the opposite hue have no such expectation. Oddly enough, your final sentence applies perfectly to a country that’s still outraged over the OJ Simpson case. Hello pot, meet kettle. The sort of forgiveness that we're discussing here, specifically the Christian kind that took place between Brandt Jean and Amber Guyger, is individual. As in the individuals that were wronged forgiving the person that wronged them. The person that could have forgiven OJ was Fred Goldman, among others personally wronged by OJs crimes. What Brandt Jean did was personal. His choosing to forgive does not mean that Americans, of any "certain hue", also forgive her. Forgiveness of this sort is not a collective act. Quote Aside from OJ, I cited a number of examples in my post of whites not being asked this question. Who asked Brandt Jean this question? My understanding is that he chose to do this himself and it came as a surprise to most that heard about it. It's an individual act. Quote How many examples can you find where whites are asked this or even just offer it up voluntarily? The, arguably, most famous one of all comes immediately to mind. That's Pope John Paul II meeting with Mehmet Ali Ağca, the man who shot him, and personally forgiving him. There are numerous other examples. Quote I’m not saying it never happens, just that the expectation isn’t there nearly as much as it is for us. IMO the reasons for it are rooted in the need to assuage white guilt and the history of our being expected/forced to sit quietly while our people were treated violently while OTOH whites could and did immediately yell for mob justice or the cops. Same difference. Well, the time for that 💩 is over. You agree that this concept comes from Christianity. Are you saying Churches, including black churches, are pushing forgiveness on black victims because they want to assuage white guilt? As a Catholic that has heard all about the importance of forgiveness his whole life, and often in Spanish, that sounds insane to me. Christianity is bigger than America, and it's teachings are not limited to American racial dynamics. The specific teaching of forgiveness, of letting go of hatred so that healing can begin, is not a concept that was born in the US or created for Americans and their race relations. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Are we really comparing OJ's situation to this? The guy that went on TV and essentially made jokes about getting away with murdering those two people? The guy that was never actually held accountable for the murder? There has to be a better comparison. One that actually applies. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 12 minutes ago, tshile said: Are we really comparing OJ's situation to this? The guy that went on TV and essentially made jokes about getting away with murdering those two people? The guy that was never actually held accountable for the murder? There has to be a better comparison. One that actually applies. Look on the bright side, it's a step up from the R Kelly comparison made earlier. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Simmsy said: I don't know why cops get more lenient sentences for breaking the law, shouldn't it be the other way around? Because the entire judicial system favors police. In a your word against a police officers situation, the officer will win. Because they're an officer, and they're afforded that... respect/benefit of the doubt/etc. They often don't get charged, or don't get convicted, or when they do get convicted they get lighter sentences. There is a real issue with the fact that a police officer sentenced to prison is an inherently more dangerous situation than other people sent to prison; an exception would be pedophiles and arsonists. They're targeted in the prison system (other groups are too but these seem to be that top tier of people targeted.) But it would seem to me they should be held to a higher standard even when off duty. And it would seem to me that you could accommodate for the above issue, and that a reduced sentence is not the appropriate accommodation. As for the rest of your post, i've never dealt with a home invasion situation so it's hard to predict how I would react. I know others that have, and I know that it was a paralyzing and life altering event for them. I can't imagine I would just start shooting, it's not what you're supposed to do. I certainly wouldn't try to cover it up afterwards. Her actions were inexcusable even if you buy that it was all a genuine mistake (and I don't buy that, and don't think there's a good argument for it.) Edited October 4, 2019 by tshile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 her whiteness = true remorse 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 Based on her history prior to this incident, I think what people saw as "remorse" in the courtroom from Guyger was more like," I really don't want to go to jail when I didn't mean to do this". She would've felt justified in her actions if it really was her apartment, and Jean was just some weirdo who broke in and decided to eat her ice cream. In that fantasy scenario, her actions were still ridiculous considering he never proved to be a threat. Someone like this should've never been allowed to be an officer. I have zero remorse for officers who carelessly take lives and then have to go to jail with people who may target them. Should've cared about YOUR potential consequences the way us regular citizens do if we're in a situation like she was. Our response would not be to grab a gun one second after seeing someone in "our" apartment and fire two shots. She literally zeroed in on black guy instead "this isn't my furniture" or "my apartment doesn't look like this". There is so much wrong with her reaction that it deserves it's own discussion. Someone earlier proposed this case does not belong in this thread. I wholeheartedly disagree, it belongs here because the same ridiculous notion that she was above the law, that permeates throughout every police department in this country, as well as minorities being not as valued as other citizens, contributed greatly to her shooting a man dead without processing the numerous signs that would've given someone not indoctrinated in that BS pause. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passepartout Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 Really except for Mr Jean's mother, who wanted that 28 year prison sentence, that young 18-year old that is wiser than his years. Really showed true mercy and forgiveness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 10 hours ago, StillUnknown said: No one finds this questionable? That the main witness against the officer was just randomly shot after helping out her away saying that her story was basically a lie? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 11 hours ago, StillUnknown said: This sounds suspicious, like the killings of all those Ferguson activists. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 Cases like this bring out the ugly truth out of everyone, for all to see. That's the only good thing to come of them. Cop + white woman will be a solid character build going forward. Might try to mod it into Skyrim... Get Alduin to forgive me and burst into flames 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 Seems like the description of the car is vague. I wonder if it said "police" on the side of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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