Guff: Americans Drift From Organized Religion In Record Numbers

[jpage520]

The thought of there not being an afterlife of some sort from what I've seen is the basis for a lot of people to believe in general. Or to not stray from their beliefs at least. It's hard to actually grasp that there will be a day in which you're no longer walking the earth. In which your physical contributions to the world cease to exist. In the same way that eternity, and forever are terms that we can only understand so far. We can know that forever means never ending, but being that our life comes to an end we can never truly wrap our heads around what that truly is.

 

I think what truly alarms me is the difference in answers I've received from folks on whether or not they found out for absolute certain that their beliefs were incorrect.

 

Upon asking people who were believers, and I'm talking about folks that are very rational and not extremists. What they would do if they were to be presented with concrete, indisputable, unwaivering proof that god did not exist. I found that the reaction is alarming. A lot said they would most likely end their lives. Others said they would be distraught to the point of not knowing how they would react but knew it wouldn't be good.

 

Upon asking non-believers of varying degrees from intellectual atheists to vehement antitheists I found that the answers were not even close to as alarming as the responses from believers. The worst answer that I got was ignorance really. Just "I'd refuse to believe it." OR "I would try to prove it wrong."

 

This, to me is scary. The thought that folks would rather die than accept and adapt to information alarms me.

[DaGoonie55]

That would be depressing.

 

I think it would be either way.  Think about the hard nosed on both sides.  What have they been doing with their entire lives?

 

Wasted.  Wasted and unfruitful lives, who now are on the wrong side of the 'law" so to speak.

 

For me personally (I am not a model Christian by any means.  I own that), I don't know what life would mean.  He's always been there in the back of my mind.  The Word has influenced my life to the point where I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for the consolation that God is there.  My life was pretty rough until 2007-8ish.  Bad marriage, debt, combat, PTSD, physical malfunctions etc.  A lot to overcome.  My faith kept me on the path to recovery and normalization (that and my Wife, to whom I owe so much).  I raise my kids with the tenets of Love that the Bible teaches us about.  My entire life is influenced.

 

Yeah, I can see why those people wouldn't want to live anymore.  Depressing.  Edit: I would add that I do not support suicide and would not take that action.

[PF Chang]

Why would you have anxiety over something you don't believe exists? Unless you still do believe and deep down know your turning your back on God?

 

The possibility of being wrong, imo. 

[The 12th Commandment]

The possibility of being wrong, imo. 

The bane of all our agnostic existences.

[PF Chang]

The bane of all our agnostic existences.

 

“To fear death, gentlemen, is no other than to think oneself wise when one is not, to think one knows what one does not know. No one knows whether death may not be the greatest of all blessings for a man, yet men fear it as if they knew that it is the greatest of evils.” 

- Socrates

 

I assumed that as I grew older I'd have more certainty in life. I'm finding it to be the opposite. That's not to say nobody should 'decide' on God, but just where I've ended up with it. 

[jpage520]

I understand the basic idea. Like you've found out that everything you've ever been told about life is a lie. That's mindblowing stuff. I understand it creating some almost unfathomable negative feelings. But I don't see that as an excuse not to live anymore.

 

It's also very alarming to me that so many Christian folks are so befuddled at the "Where do you think your morality comes from?" question and answer. The insinuation that the only thing stopping me from raping, killing, stealing, and other crimes and offenses is a belief in a deity frightens me as well.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Why would you have anxiety over something you don't believe exists? Unless you still do believe and deep down know your turning your back on God?

Probably has something to do with people that they trust telling them since they were 3 years old that there is a heaven, that Jesus is the only path to get there, and that they would burn in hell if they didn't commit themselves to him.

 

I have anxiety about spiders but deep down I know that it is not rational.

[Bang]

I have no fear of being wrong.

I don't believe it, and if I AM wrong, than i'll stand on my record as a human being and so be it.

I've been pretty decent to my fellow human beings, have not broken any commandments other than the selfish ones an all powerful omnipotent being would really have no use for... I don't murder covet steal adulterize, etc. (I don't even put any other god before God, because there is no list when there are no entities..) and frankly, if it's the lack of belief that will damn me, than I'd  start to wonder why such a powerful being has such insecurity as to require me to accept his Great Mysteriousness without question, even though he presumably gave me a brain that does nothing BUT question and search for knowledge.

What is it,, a trick? Question everything but me? 

What's the point? To demand unwavering loyalty, beyond the obvious questions? Believe, or else?

It doesn't make sense. It's like saying to the sharks that they can't eat fish. God gave you all those teeth and made you to live in the ocean.. but hey,, if you use them to eat a fish it's straight to Hell for you, Brucey.

 

I've been good to my neighbors, been peaceful and generous and charitable. I don't even hassle believers for their belief, like a lot of non-believers like to do..  typically i don't engage in threads like these simply because I have respect for the beliefs others have in here, and it's not my place nor my desire to insult them.

 

But if that's the case... if lack of 'faith' is the dealbreaker... then you can have it. Trying to please an entity like that is akin to slavery..  no wonder people get on their knees.

 

~Bang

[Mr. Sinister]

This is an interesting discussion, and quite civil, to be honest.

I don't remember who posted it, but I view religion as a moral code. I view religion as a practice of understanding that nonviolence, nonjudgmental people will translate to being happier people. I view many of the stories of the Bible as just that, stories. However, they each have a deeper point or meaning that they don't necessarily spell out. Much like stories that we share with our children. The point may not be in the truth of the story, or the lack of embellishment of a story, but rather the hidden meaning and the proper message that the story is attempting to convey. It's up to all of us to decipher that aspect of a story, truthful or otherwise, and pick out the true purpose as to why that story is being shared.

There is much in religion I agree with. There is also much I disagree with, and the many different denominations of religion who argue its own points are of no impact to my beliefs. In that aspect, as far as the disagreements go, I view religion much like I view politics... People arguing because they believe whats been passed on to them. There is no grounds for reason, but rather parroting past views and ideals. I think all of us would be better off if we just looked at things with the mindset of "whats best for us as a whole, and not just my own personal interests".

I think religion can accomplish that. I believe in the key tenets of religion, but I'd be lying if I said I agreed with all of it. So I practice it the way that I believe is beneficial to myself, and therefore beneficial to the community. I don't stand on top of a rock and shout my religious beliefs. And to be quite truthful, I don't talk about it outside of this post. I have no agenda. I have no desire to push others to it or away from it.

And further, I find it difficult to believe that when God gave people free will that he wanted them to all fall in line with what his message conveys. To that end, people who don't believe, in my opinion, aren't doing anything that they're not supposed to do. People that do believe aren't, either.

I do, however, wish that people were more tolerant of each other's beliefs, and not as insulting as many come across when this topic comes up. If you believe in everything that's been written as 100% truth, then so be it and good for you. If you believe in the core tenets but have a hard time with other stuff, then so be it and good for you. If you don't believe at all, then so be it and good for you. It's not my responsibility to tell you what's right to believe in and what's not.

But I do feel it's all of our responsibility to live a positive life and one with tolerance and treating each other with respect. (Keep in mind, that doesn't mean we don't get angry, I just wish we [including myself at times] weren't so gosh darn judgmental about everything). Somewhere along the lines of technology's rise (which I view as a good thing, by the way) we've lost the respect piece to a large degree.

As an agnostic, this is 100% how I feel. And thanks for taking the time to post it, because I initially wouldve posted a more inflammatory version of it. I think as much as everyone loves to fingerpoint, each "side" bears responsibility in the pervasive ignorance and disrespect that tends to dominate the discussion on a wide scale, resulting in nothing but further entrenched positions and more insult.

[Riggo-toni]

The possibility of being wrong, imo.

Yup. The basis for Pascal's wager.

Like Predicto I started out as a firm believer in God, but jave drifted off into borderline deism/Christian humanism. Ironically much of my skepticism has been fueled by my studying of the Bible in depth as well as the history of its contemporary cultures. Growing up I memorized biblical verses that supported my theological viewpoints. Studying Hebrew and reading passages within their full context I realized how wrong much of what I thought I knew was. It is also quite evident that much of what Christianity tries to retroactively apply to the Old Testament simply isn't there.

Concepts like the devil, final judgment, an afterlife split between heaven and hell -all these came centuries after the Babylonian exile and logically seem like more of a syncretism with Persian and Greek influences. I still believe in a God, but I find myself struggling with exactly how/what I believe.

[The 12th Commandment]

“To fear death, gentlemen, is no other than to think oneself wise when one is not, to think one knows what one does not know. No one knows whether death may not be the greatest of all blessings for a man, yet men fear it as if they knew that it is the greatest of evils.” 

- Socrates

 

I assumed that as I grew older I'd have more certainty in life. I'm finding it to be the opposite. That's not to say nobody should 'decide' on God, but just where I've ended up with it. 

 

 I think your reaction is the same as mine.  We fear the unknown and death is the greatest of all unknowns.  

 

I think Socrates is full of it here.  If I were a religious man I'd say that God gave us fear of the unknown for a reason.  Since I'm not I think we evolved it because fearful people survive when the foolishly brave don't.  

 

I had a number of cats growing up in New Mexico.  The fearful ones lived a good long life, the fearless were coyote bait.

[alexey]

Why would you have anxiety over something you don't believe exists? Unless you still do believe and deep down know your turning your back on God?

beliefs live in some places in the brain while fears/anxieties live in others.

Fear/anxiety is a very primal response. It can be quite ingrained. I heard stories of people who suffered from fear/anxiety for 5+ years after they stopped believing in the doctrine of hell. They expressed great frustration that they still get that low level anxiety even though they have complete disbelief at the intellectual level.

[Burgold]

Whether God is real or not, I am absolutely certain that there is no such thing as hell. If God is real and he's all he's cracked up to be, everyone goes to heaven.

Dude,

 

All dogs go to Heaven, but people...?

Most people would quickly turn Heaven into... well, you know

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Dude,

All dogs go to Heaven, but people...?

Most people would quickly turn Heaven into... well, you know

You've obviously never owned a pembroke welsh corgi. Just let me know if you want to try it sometime. I've got one for you.

Think of the person you love most unconditionally. Is there anything that person could do to make you wish an eternity of hell on them? So it would have to go with God I figure.

[DCSaints_fan]

The possibility of being wrong, imo. 

 

Logically speaking though, there's many ways to be wrong, but only a few, (possibily just one) way to be right.

 

Even if you accept the basic tenets of some religion, there's always the possibility of the deity being a prick and only one obscure branch being the "correct" one.  And that was the understanding, at least amongst Christians, for hundreds of years.

 

At that point, you're pretty much buying soteriological lottery tickets, anyway 

[Zguy28]

You've obviously never owned a pembroke welsh corgi. Just let me know if you want to try it sometime. I've got one for you.

Think of the person you love most unconditionally. Is there anything that person could do to make you wish an eternity of hell on them? So it would have to go with God I figure.

Nobody wishes anybody to go to Hell. Not even God. Your argument presupposes that sin and holiness do not exist. Hell is about the justice of God. Do you think that criminals should not be judged and convicted if guilty? Should they then just be released from justice? No? Now put that into the context of an infinitely holy and just God who is also omniscient and therefore judges justly.

Yup. The basis for Pascal's wager.

Like Predicto I started out as a firm believer in God, but jave drifted off into borderline deism/Christian humanism. Ironically much of my skepticism has been fueled by my studying of the Bible in depth as well as the history of its contemporary cultures. Growing up I memorized biblical verses that supported my theological viewpoints. Studying Hebrew and reading passages within their full context I realized how wrong much of what I thought I knew was. It is also quite evident that much of what Christianity tries to retroactively apply to the Old Testament simply isn't there.

Concepts like the devil, final judgment, an afterlife split between heaven and hell -all these came centuries after the Babylonian exile and logically seem like more of a syncretism with Persian and Greek influences. I still believe in a God, but I find myself struggling with exactly how/what I believe.

Then you believe the teachings of Jesus and the apostles were in error.

[alexey]

Nobody wishes anybody to go to Hell. Not even God. Your argument presupposes that sin and holiness do not exist. Hell is about the justice of God. Do you think that criminals should not be judged and convicted if guilty? Should they then just be released from justice? No? Now put that into the context of an infinitely holy and just God who is also omniscient and therefore judges justly.

Then you believe the teachings of Jesus and the apostles were in error.

I see many difficult questions in the relationship between justice and things like punishment, revenge, rehabilitation, etc.

I find it hard to see justice in eternal torment with no chance of rehabilitation. I could see justice in other models of hell, for example where the bad ones just disappear.

I shared before that I have a hard time making sense of the whole thing. I am fine having free will to kiss or hug my kids. I don't have free will to fly and I don't need free will to murder. I want free will not to be murdered but I don't have that. And if free will to murder is necessary in the system, murderers should go to hell after they decide to murder but before they actually do it.

[Predicto]

If you saw a blind person walking toward a 1000 foot cliff with no idea it was there, what would you do to convince them to stop and save his life? Would you even warn them of the danger of the path they are on? Would you do anything you could to persuade them? Would you tell them they would fall and be broken to pieces? Or just stand by and let them go?

 

This is the danger of not warning folks of the judgement to come. You may not believe it, or like it, but I do and its real. But, that being said, while I never shy away from the reality of Hell, I also know that the best witness or testimony is a life lived like Jesus in love (who btw, also included warnings about judgement and Hell in His preaching).

 

 

That is why I said that I never resent it when someone tries to proselytize to save my soul.   I know that their intentions are good.

Why would you have anxiety over something you don't believe exists? Unless you still do believe and deep down know your turning your back on God?

 

 

Ummm.... because scary stories are scary?

[Destino]

Not that it's my opinion but I've heard that the fear of nothingness after death is pretty horrific for some too.

That's some people's version of hell (destruction, instead of eternal punishment).

[PeterMP]

Since this thread has clearly gone off topic, I am going to jump in on the OT discussion.
 
With respect to hell, first, we have to understand that every time Jesus talks about hell, he does so in the context of actions.  There's no sense that people will go to hell based on their beliefs in God.  So unless we want to extend beyond the idea actually presented at least by Jesus, there is no reason to believe that a "good" atheist would go to hell.
 
Jesus' clearly teaches that the path to heaven (i.e. to the Father) is through him, but he is also clear that his teachings/ministry are meant for the Jewish population and that all things are possible through God.
 
You can then tie yourself into a knot as to what happens to everybody else, which is where the Catholic Church over the years ended up developing ideas like purgatory and limbo.
 
(which they've gotten away from to a large extent and just have gone more silent on the issue)
 
From there, we get into issues with the concept of punishment in the context of hell.  The Greek word used in the early Biblical manuscripts for punishment means different things, and you are starting to see that used in different (newer) translations of the Bible.  For example, the New World Translation (2013) gives something like this:
 
"These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life"
 
but it Is traditionally translated as something like:
 
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
 
Where the "cut off' can even be a corrective good action related to things like pruning.
 
Now, if you take the first sort of thing, I'm not exactly like sure what that means in the context of hell, and I'm always surprised so many people seem so certain.

[Predicto]

 

Now, if you take the first sort of thing, I'm not exactly like sure what that means in the context of hell, and I'm always surprised so many people seem so certain.

 

 

Many evangelicals believe that the King James version of the bible is the only valid one, and any other translations or interpretations are false.   Their theological certainty rests on their fine tuned interpretations of the exact words of that exact version of the bible.

[s0crates]

Nobody wishes anybody to go to Hell. Not even God. Your argument presupposes that sin and holiness do not exist. Hell is about the justice of God. Do you think that criminals should not be judged and convicted if guilty? Should they then just be released from justice? No? Now put that into the context of an infinitely holy and just God who is also omniscient and therefore judges justly.

It's a false analogy. Criminals are punished proportionately to their crimes, say 10 years for a robbery, plus time off for good behavior. In contrast, the prison term in hell is supposedly eternal, even for petty crimes like denying the Holy Ghost. Eternal punishment cannot be just, not if you take proportionality to be a necessary condition of justice.

Anyway I don't think the book supports the dogma about hellfire and brimstones. Yes there is that business about the "wailing and gnashing of teeth," but that's a far cry from Dante's Inferno.

A friend suggested to me the wailing and gnashing of teeth is better understood as daily life. I'm not concerned to dispute his interpretation of that. I find it coheres better with the "love one another" theme.

[s0crates]

Many evangelicals believe that the King James version of the bible is the only valid one, and any other translations or interpretations are false. Their theological certainty rests on their fine tuned interpretations of the exact words of that exact version of the bible.

They can't possibly. Do they?

[Predicto]

They can't possibly. Do they?

 

Absolutely.   Not every evangelical believes this, but a large amount absolutely do, particularly bible literalists.  They believe the KJV is the divinely-inspired "correct" version of the bible.  

[GhostofSparta]

They can't possibly. Do they?

 

 

Absolutely.   Not every evangelical believes this, but a large amount absolutely do, particularly bible literalists.  They believe the KJV is the divinely-inspired "correct" version of the bible.  

I went to a very small, very strict, very conservative Baptist high school. I can confirm first hand that Predicto is not exaggerating. A handful of the people in charge of the school believed that. I once got a demerit for reading aloud from my English Standard Version instead of the KJV.

 

As a side note, I envy people who look back on high school with any kind of fond memories.