PokerPacker Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 As a side note, I envy people who look back on high school with any kind of fond memories.High School was awful. Couldn't get out of there fast enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Junior High was much, much worse. To fit it into the theme of this thread, it was the deepest pit of hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I think your reaction is the same as mine. We fear the unknown and death is the greatest of all unknowns. I think Socrates is full of it here. If I were a religious man I'd say that God gave us fear of the unknown for a reason. Since I'm not I think we evolved it because fearful people survive when the foolishly brave don't. I had a number of cats growing up in New Mexico. The fearful ones lived a good long life, the fearless were coyote bait. 1. Socrates is actually talking about courage more than death here. Remember Socrates was a soldier. In this passage he is basically saying that he cannot abandon his post. He is on a divine mission, and he will not be a coward who places his own survival over doing God's will. In fact this passage begins with a reply to exactly what you say. Here is the whole passage for reference, emphasis added (Plato's "Apology," 28a-30a): Someone will say: And are you not ashamed, Socrates, of a course of life which is likely to bring you to an untimely end? To him I may fairly answer: There you are mistaken: a man who is good for anything ought not to calculate the chance of living or dying; he ought only to consider whether in doing anything he is doing right or wrong - acting the part of a good man or of a bad. Whereas, according to your view, the heroes who fell at Troy were not good for much, and the son of Thetis above all, who altogether despised danger in comparison with disgrace; and when his goddess mother said to him, in his eagerness to slay Hector, that if he avenged his companion Patroclus, and slew Hector, he would die himself - "Fate," as she said, "waits upon you next after Hector"; he, hearing this, utterly despised danger and death, and instead of fearing them, feared rather to live in dishonor, and not to avenge his friend. "Let me die next," he replies, "and be avenged of my enemy, rather than abide here by the beaked ships, a scorn and a burden of the earth." Had Achilles any thought of death and danger? For wherever a man's place is, whether the place which he has chosen or that in which he has been placed by a commander, there he ought to remain in the hour of danger; he should not think of death or of anything, but of disgrace. And this, O men of Athens, is a true saying. Strange, indeed, would be my conduct, O men of Athens, if I who, when I was ordered by the generals whom you chose to command me at Potidaea and Amphipolis and Delium, remained where they placed me, like any other man, facing death; if, I say, now, when, as I conceive and imagine, God orders me to fulfill the philosopher's mission of searching into myself and other men, I were to desert my post through fear of death, or any other fear; that would indeed be strange, and I might justly be arraigned in court for denying the existence of the gods, if I disobeyed the oracle because I was afraid of death: then I should be fancying that I was wise when I was not wise. For this fear of death is indeed the pretence of wisdom, and not real wisdom, being the appearance of knowing the unknown; since no one knows whether death, which they in their fear apprehend to be the greatest evil, may not be the greatest good. Is there not here conceit of knowledge, which is a disgraceful sort of ignorance? And this is the point in which, as I think, I am superior to men in general, and in which I might perhaps fancy myself wiser than other men, - that whereas I know but little of the world below, I do not suppose that I know: but I do know that injustice and disobedience to a better, whether God or man, is evil and dishonorable, and I will never fear or avoid a possible good rather than a certain evil. And therefore if you let me go now, and reject the counsels of Anytus, who said that if I were not put to death I ought not to have been prosecuted, and that if I escape now, your sons will all be utterly ruined by listening to my words - if you say to me, Socrates, this time we will not mind Anytus, and will let you off, but upon one condition, that are to inquire and speculate in this way any more, and that if you are caught doing this again you shall die; - if this was the condition on which you let me go, I should reply: Men of Athens, I honor and love you; but I shall obey God rather than you, and while I have life and strength I shall never cease from the practice and teaching of philosophy, exhorting anyone whom I meet after my manner, and convincing him, saying: O my friend, why do you who are a citizen of the great and mighty and wise city of Athens, care so much about laying up the greatest amount of money and honor and reputation, and so little about wisdom and truth and the greatest improvement of the soul, which you never regard or heed at all? Are you not ashamed of this? And if the person with whom I am arguing says: Yes, but I do care; I do not depart or let him go at once; I interrogate and examine and cross-examine him, and if I think that he has no virtue, but only says that he has, I reproach him with undervaluing the greater, and overvaluing the less. And this I should say to everyone whom I meet, young and old, citizen and alien, but especially to the citizens, inasmuch as they are my brethren. For this is the command of God, as I would have you know; and I believe that to this day no greater good has ever happened in the state than my service to the God. For I do nothing but go about persuading you all, old and young alike, not to take thought for your persons and your properties, but first and chiefly to care about the greatest improvement of the soul. I tell you that virtue is not given by money, but that from virtue come money and every other good of man, public as well as private. This is my teaching, and if this is the doctrine which corrupts the youth, my influence is ruinous indeed. But if anyone says that this is not my teaching, he is speaking an untruth. Wherefore, O men of Athens, I say to you, do as Anytus bids or not as Anytus bids, and either acquit me or not; but whatever you do, know that I shall never alter my ways, not even if I have to die many times." Anyway, I find his courage here admirable. I grant we should avoid recklessness, but we should not be cowards either. 2. Socrates does give a clearer argument against fearing death a bit later in the dialogue (40d). Basically he says: When you die, either you will be nonexistent, or you will go to the afterlife. If you are nonexistent, then it will be like a deep sleep, with no suffering. If you go to the afterlife, then you can do philosophy with the other dead people. Therefore death is either a deep sleep or doing philosophy with dead people, either of which is good. So death is good. There are some objections to this argument, many of which can be met by pointing out that Socrates thought he was doing God's will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Absolutely. Not every evangelical believes this, but a large amount absolutely do, particularly bible literalists. They believe the KJV is the divinely-inspired "correct" version of the bible. I'd like to be shown the wise man who owns this view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I'd like to be shown the wise man who owns this view. http://www.av1611.org/ Have fun. And while a lot of evangelicals may use the KJV still, most do not. In fact I know only a few out of hundreds in my church that use it at all. Most use the NIV or ESV. I use the ESV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 It's a false analogy. Criminals are punished proportionately to their crimes, say 10 years for a robbery, plus time off for good behavior. In contrast, the prison term in hell is supposedly eternal, even for petty crimes like denying the Holy Ghost. Eternal punishment cannot be just, not if you take proportionality to be a necessary condition of justice. What if the proportionality is infinite because of God's infinite holiness? Man's sin is rebellion. We are the one's who rank sins according to what we think they should merit for punishment. James 2:10-11 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. The context of this is the sin of favoritism toward the rich over the poor in the church. James basically says its no different than if you committed adultery or murder. Anyway I don't think the book supports the dogma about hellfire and brimstones. Yes there is that business about the "wailing and gnashing of teeth," but that's a far cry from Dante's Inferno.A friend suggested to me the wailing and gnashing of teeth is better understood as daily life. I'm not concerned to dispute his interpretation of that. I find it coheres better with the "love one another" theme. What do you think Jesus based his parable of the rich man and Lazarus on (Luke 16)? 19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’” And more teachings of Jesus from Mark 9? Temptations to Sin 42 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. 43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ 49 For everyone will be salted with fire. 50 Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.” Or Revelation 20? The Defeat of Satan 7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Judgment Before the Great White Throne 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. I think these passages most definitely support the idea of everlasting torment with fire of some kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 http://www.av1611.org/ Was this supposed to be an example of wisdom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Was this supposed to be an example of wisdom? No. I think he's a kook, akin to a snake handler or Kenneth Copeland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 No. I think he's a kook, akin to a snake handler or Kenneth Copeland. Yeah, there's some wacky stuff on that site man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Temptations to Sin 42 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. 43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ 49 For everyone will be salted with fire. 50 Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.” I think this is a particular interesting, but confusing passage with respect to hell. In those days, being salted was good. Things that were salted were kept good. Everything else rotted unless used quickly. Clearly, not having to go through the salting process was/is better than being salted (i.e. eating something fresh was better than eating something salted), and I think Jesus makes that point. But given that there is a negative, being salted by fire would suggest at least seem to suggest a positive thing in the end. A purification by fire? Maybe something akin to a pruning? Revelations is just confusing period **EDIT** I think Jesus is being somewhat metaphorical with the body parts being cut off. I think the point is that we all have things that hold us back from being good people. And we should try to lose those things (i.e. prune them) We can do it ourselves (i.e. salt ourselves), or it can be done for us (i.e. salted with fire). It would be better to do it ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I think this is a particular interesting, but confusing passage with respect to hell. In those days, being salted was good. Things that were salted were kept good. Everything else rotted unless used quickly. Clearly, not having to go through the salting process was/is better than not being salted (i.e. eating something fresh was better than eating something salted), and I think Jesus makes that point. But given that there is a negative, being salted by fire would suggest at least seem to suggest a positive thing in the end. A purification by fire? Maybe something akin to a pruning? Revelations is just confusing period. I know at least for Christians, there is some sort of purification by fire at the judgement. It seems to me to be that our works will be tested by fire and the "through fire" in v. 15 is likely referring to the "carnal Christians" he's writing to. It gives the picture of being saved, but by the skin of your teeth (or soles of your feet over the flames as it be). 1 Corinthians 3 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I know at least for Christians, there is some sort of purification by fire at the judgement. It seems to me to be that our works will be tested by fire and the "through fire" in v. 15 is likely referring to the "carnal Christians" he's writing to. It gives the picture of being saved, but by the skin of your teeth (or soles of your feet over the flames as it be). 1 Corinthians 3 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. Paul seems to be suggesting two things here to me. First is the evaluation of our works in building the Church through fire, and then a salvation through fire if the works are not good enough. (Though I certainly could be wrong.) Paul laid the foundation, and other people are building onto it (i.e. other people are helping Paul educate and convert new Christians). I've always taken this almost to be a command that if you are going to proselytize to do it well. Apollos is building on the foundation laid by Paul. If he does it poorly (e.g. with straw), his part will burn during the fire. If that happens, then Apollos will suffer loss, but he himself can still have salvation through (a purification by) fire. I'm also not at all clear that we are actually talking about real fire here. Maybe the Holly Spirit or just every day trials? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 What if the proportionality is infinite because of God's infinite holiness? Man's sin is rebellion. We are the one's who rank sins according to what we think they should merit for punishment. James 2:10-11 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. The context of this is the sin of favoritism toward the rich over the poor in the church. James basically says its no different than if you committed adultery or murder. It seems to me that the context is non-judgement. As I read it, James 2 is about mercy and compassion. Regardless I think you might be unhappy with the implications of the view that proportionality is not a condition of justice. I think these passages most definitely support the idea of everlasting torment with fire of some kind. Is that the evidence for hellfire and brimstone? Seems awfully scant to me. Might there not be some other interpretation of these passages? It seems to me that the "fire" could be symbolic. Perhaps it could represents truth, for example. Sometimes the truth can torment, especially a wicked man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 It seems to me that the context is non-judgement. As I read it, James 2 is about mercy and compassion. Regardless I think you might be unhappy with the implications of the view that proportionality is not a condition of justice. Is that the evidence for hellfire and brimstone? Seems awfully scant to me. Might there not be some other interpretation of these passages? It seems to me that the "fire" could be symbolic. Perhaps it could represents truth, for example. Sometimes the truth can torment, especially a wicked man. I honestly don't think so, especially in Luke 16. While the rich man and Lazarus (not the same as the Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead) may both not be real people, and Hell is not the point of the parable, Jesus is basing his parable off what people know and believe. Otherwise it makes no sense to them. Any symbolism is in the people, not the places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I'm a big black athletic, Christian, democrat, Redskin fan, geek living in Southwest Washington, DC... When people try to put stereotype claims on me, they feel so dumb when they realize how wrong they were about me lol You had me at "geek living in SW"...haha. Seriously though I think we have had this conversation before along with Chew and probably Taze. It is amazing how people look at you and assume who you are in a nutshell. Then they have this "whoa" moment, throws them off completely. I am not trying to throw them off, I am just being me. Happened to run into a buddy of mine and said to me, "are you seriously listening to Boyz to Men"...my response was simple..."how did you know ?". He paused and said yeah, I like some of their songs too. Went to a pick up game years ago with my staff...pulled up with some Def Leppard on...my one buddy was floored. It always makes me laugh. The wonderful thing about growing up in DC is the diversity. Even if someone grows up in a particular neighborhood, you know how to act in general. Swivel in every hood, white, black, rich poor. We can all be cool with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Absolutely. Not every evangelical believes this, but a large amount absolutely do, particularly bible literalists. They believe the KJV is the divinely-inspired "correct" version of the bible. I grew up with the KJV and and comfortable with it , but even among those you speak of the interpretation of it varied and depended on other transcripts to get the 'correct' interpretation.....Literalism means something different to them Nowadays ya would be hard pressed to find many fundamentalist churches using it exclusively,much less evangelicals at large. Modern English is much easier....besides it gives them more to argue about (and Lord knows they can spend years over a single word) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 ... The wonderful thing about growing up in DC is the diversity. Even if someone grows up in a particular neighborhood, you know how to act in general. Swivel in every hood, white, black, rich poor. We can all be cool with each other. yes... growing up in McLean in the 1970s, it was the diversity that won me over, also. In retrospect....who knew there were so many ways to be white? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 yes... growing up in McLean in the 1970s, it was the diversity that won me over, also. In retrospect....who knew there were so many ways to be white? What? We had that one black kid, like two classes behind me. (of course he went to the NFL - let the stereotypes bloom ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Black people still don't live in McLean. They are bussed in to play sports. That's what I hear at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PF Chang Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 What? We had that one black kid, like two classes behind me. (of course he went to the NFL - let the stereotypes bloom ) Eric Dorsey? My dad wrestled and played football at McLean in the late 70s and has mentioned him a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Eric Dorsey? My dad wrestled and played football at McLean in the late 70s and has mentioned him a few times. Yep. He was a sophomore when I was a senior. I went to High School with your dad. He probably knew me (and hated my guts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Eric Dorsey? My dad wrestled and played football at McLean in the late 70s and has mentioned him a few times. yeah, that guy was a montster... first round draft pick by the Giants, played NT for years. But was slightly before my time. His brother, who was at McLean when i was there, was even bigger-- but much less athletic, and never very serious. ...... He probably knew me (and hated my guts). that doesn't limit it down very much.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PF Chang Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Yep. He was a sophomore when I was a senior. I went to High School with your dad. He probably knew me (and hated my guts). Revenge of the Nerds anyway - he got a spelling bee champion/Magic the Gathering player for a son instead of a D1 athlete! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Revenge of the Nerds anyway - he got a spelling bee champion/Magic the Gathering player for a son instead of a D1 athlete! Bwahahaha! And I got an athlete who will be running college track next year. So go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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