DaGoonie55 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I think that people let their personal convictions get in the way of other peoples freedoms. Ex: I think that for Goonie, it is wrong to be gay. For ME. I do not feel that it is the life I am supposed to live. However, I see no reason why joe p snuffy over there isn't right in being gay. And furthermore, it really isn't any of my business how he chose/chooses/is born to live. It is my responsibility to show that man/woman respect and love as I would any other person on earth. Ex: I know that evolution is true, science tells me that. SO I know that it is in the bible somewhere. I just have to find it. If my mother/sister read that statement I wouldn't be allowed back home ever again. IMHO, religion is a PERSONAL relationship with God. What the scripture means to me, may not interpret the same to you. Stop forcing me to conform to man's standards of religion, and I'll stop boycotting churches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Alexey, I thought about you when I read this this morning. Misconceptions of science and religion found in new study - See more at: http://news.rice.edu/2014/02/16/misconceptions-of-science-and-religion-found-in-new-study-2/#sthash.CSKViSsn.dpuf Thank you for sharing! This study seems to support a narrative about peaceful coexistence of religion and science... Although I wonder what kind of questions where asked to get that conclusion.I see conflicts between findings of science and religious teachings... But people would prefer to avoid conflicts. I know people who very much support science - but they support real science, not fake science like evolution. Methods/mechanisms/means matter.I agree with this.I see critical thinking serving as thr foundation of ethics. Therefore I do not understand how it can be promoted in an unethical way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I see critical thinking serving as thr foundation of ethics. Therefore I do not understand how it can be promoted in an unethical way. Your ends are so good that the means can't possibly be bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Your ends are so good that the means can't possibly be bad?I suppose it is possible, but I do not now what it would look like. Can you offer an example of an unethical way to promote critical thinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I suppose it is possible, but I do not now what it would look like. Can you offer an example of an unethical way to promote critical thinking? First, I suspect you can't promote actual critical thinking effectively through propaganda so I suspect your means won't actually achieve your ends. But I suspect you can try, and you might even make some (apparent) short term gains, but long term, I think it will only hurt your efforts, and you'll end up hurting things that are actually dependent on good critical thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Thank you for sharing! This study seems to support a narrative about peaceful coexistence of religion and science... Although I wonder what kind of questions where asked to get that conclusion. I see conflicts between findings of science and religious teachings... But people would prefer to avoid conflicts. I know people who very much support science - but they support real science, not fake science like evolution. I agree with this. Evolution isn't science, fake or otherwise. Its a conclusion based on evaluation of the evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 First, I suspect you can't promote actual critical thinking effectively through propaganda so I suspect your means won't actually achieve your ends. But I suspect you can try, and you might even make some (apparent) short term gains, but long term, I think it will only hurt your efforts, and you'll end up hurting things that are actually dependent on good critical thinking. Did you understand my usage of the word "convince" to indicate that I intend to use propaganda? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 12th Commandment Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Evolution isn't science, fake or otherwise. Its a conclusion based on evaluation of the evidence. The way I understand it, and I await correction, is that evolution is a theory (which amounts to a conclusion based on evaluation of the evidence as you suggest) that hasn't been proven. That is science, it's just not a proof. At least there is some evidence for it though, as opposed to other theories... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Evolution isn't science, fake or otherwise. Its a conclusion based on evaluation of the evidence.I am not sure how you can draw that boundary in a way that says a scientific theory is not science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGoonie55 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Science is a method, evolution is the findings of said method? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Science is a method, evolution is the findings of said method? Yes, its sort of like means and ends. Its the same as theology. We don't know theology, we do it. Likewise, we don't know science because its not a thing to be known, we do science in order to form conclusions about creation. But that's besides the point of the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Evolution isn't science, fake or otherwise. Its a conclusion based on evaluation of the evidence. Wiat, what? Don't be silly. Of course evolution is science. That does not mean that it is set in stone. If new scientific evidence comes along to call evolution into question, then things will change, but that doesn't mean that evolutionary biology isn't real science. Many Christians agree with this. However, many do not, and for the very same reason you cite for evangelization. They feel that it is in the best interest of people to live in accordance with God's laws. Just think if evangelicals like William Wilberforce and Thomas Clarkson hadn't worked to put his faith into action to outlaw slavery in England, or forma the first Animal welfare league or prioritize education as one of the best means to combat poverty? Its easy to pick and choose when we don't personally feel something is right, but that's just subjective. I like this saying: "So I'll stop living off of how I feel and start standing on Your truth revealed" That's a good point. Still bugs me, but I see what you are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I'm not really participating much in "religion" threads these days (I go on and off in conversing on it over the decades--been at such a long time and at a variety of levels and venues), but in doing something else I noticed how actually decent wiki's page was on the demographics of atheism, and all the difficulties in accurately establishing statistics where religious beliefs and "non-beliefs" are concerned. alexy used to go into great length on the very real challenges of placing people in one or two term categories that really describe what they believe in these matters, particularly for atheists/agnostics/secularists/humanists, who often share some commonality with each other but are not necessarily all the same. Just as many may label themselves Muslims or Christians, for example, yet believe or disbelieve (not even counting deeds here) things that put them in serious conflict with fundamental "requirements" (tenets) of their claimed religion. Anyways, I think It's worth perusing the page and it does relate to the conversation beyond the idea that it's "about atheism." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 disgruntled know-it-all atheists While I wouldn't characterize myself as disgruntled, it's fair to say that I do know all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 While I wouldn't characterize myself as disgruntled, it's fair to say that I do know all. I believe there's an entity that thinks it's greater than me. Actually, there seems to be millions of them, and many seem to be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGoonie55 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I will say that I appreciate that this thread has not devolved into its usual mud slinging contest. Thank you Tailgaters, it is good to read peoples thoughts without the venom. Hail to yous guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Science is frequently broadly used to refer to both the scientific method (i.e. a process) and information derived from it (e.g. scientific theories). Most sources will give both definitions. In that context, I think it is difficult to say that evolution is not science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I was quite religous when I was young. I lost my faith, and I don't know if I will ever get it back. Call me a committed agnostic. .... Really?? i was basically totally atheist when i was young. I just couldn't get myself to buy it.... or want to. I got sent to C.C.D. every week... and skipped out and played in the woods. now i have progressed onward to agnostic, but with a strong dose of "i HOPE it is all true, and i WISH i could convince myself that it is..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Really?? i was basically totally atheist when i was young. I just couldn't get myself to buy it.... or want to. I got sent to C.C.D. every week... and skipped out and played in the woods. now i have progressed onward to agnostic, but with a strong dose of "i HOPE it is all true, and i WISH i could convince myself that it is..." I totally bought in until somewhere around junior high. I remember singing songs from Godspell at the groovy Pax Mass, and believing every word. Perhaps it was because I didn't have a cynical older brother to ruin it for me. Although I must say that the creek and woods right next to St. Luke's was awfully enticing, and I skipped CCD sometimes too. And man, do I feel you on the HOPE it is all true and WISH I could believe part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 What about fear of hell, etc.? I hear that's a thing for some people who experience anxiety about it for years after they stop believing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 12th Commandment Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 What about fear of hell, etc.? I hear that's a thing for some people who experience anxiety about it for years after they stop believing. Not that it's my opinion but I've heard that the fear of nothingness after death is pretty horrific for some too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 What about fear of hell, etc.? I hear that's a thing for some people who experience anxiety about it for years after they stop believing. The Catholic Church (or at least the ones I attended) aren't really big on the hellfire and damnation fear thing. They talked about Jesus and about a path to God after death, but didn't try to scare you with visions of eternal agony blah blah blah. They painted a picture of a very forgiving and inclusive God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 What about fear of hell, etc.? I hear that's a thing for some people who experience anxiety about it for years after they stop believing. Why would you have anxiety over something you don't believe exists? Unless you still do believe and deep down know your turning your back on God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 The Catholic Church (or at least the ones I attended) aren't really big on the hellfire and damnation fear thing. They talked about Jesus and about a path to God after death, but didn't try to scare you with visions of eternal agony blah blah blah. They painted a picture of a very forgiving and inclusive God. If you saw a blind person walking toward a 1000 foot cliff with no idea it was there, what would you do to convince them to stop and save his life? Would you even warn them of the danger of the path they are on? Would you do anything you could to persuade them? Would you tell them they would fall and be broken to pieces? Or just stand by and let them go? This is the danger of not warning folks of the judgement to come. You may not believe it, or like it, but I do and its real. But, that being said, while I never shy away from the reality of Hell, I also know that the best witness or testimony is a life lived like Jesus in love (who btw, also included warnings about judgement and Hell in His preaching). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Whether God is real or not, I am absolutely certain that there is no such thing as hell. If God is real and he's all he's cracked up to be, everyone goes to heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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