Mike Shanahan Tells All on ESPN 980 (RGIII, McNabb, Manning, Haynseworth) Link included w/ Audio

[MattFancy]

You know what would be really awesome right about now?  If people would actually read and understand my posts.  I never said I was comparing the records.  In fact I said it twice.  I was again comparing how they left the team moving forward and how Gibbs' short sighted trades left the team void of young talent.  And again I was disputing the claim that Gibbs era was ok and the Shanny era was a complete disaster when all things considered (young talent, cap situation as well as over all record) they were in fact very comparable.

 

When he got here Shanny had the oldest roster in the league, a roster with no depth, no youth, and a terrible cap situation.  To compare his sitiuation to Gibbs by record only is simply not what I"ve been talking about.

 

You forget that inbetween Gibbs and Shanny, was Zorn. When Zorn took over in 2008, most with Gibbs' players, he started the season 6-2 and Campbell was being talked about as an MVP candidate. So I'm not so sure Gibbs left the team in as big of a mess as you think. Was it a mess when Zorn left? Yeah. But not so much after Gibbs.

[Darrell Green Fan]

You forget that inbetween Gibbs and Shanny, was Zorn. When Zorn took over in 2008, most with Gibbs' players, he started the season 6-2 and Campbell was being talked about as an MVP candidate. So I'm not so sure Gibbs left the team in as big of a mess as you think. Was it a mess when Zorn left? Yeah. But not so much after Gibbs.

 

 

Yeah after reading my post again it did kind of look like I was implying that Gibbs handed it off to Shanny. That was obviously not the case.  But it does not change the fact that Shanny inherited the team as I described it and Gibbs trading away so many picks did play a part in that roster down the road 2 years. 

[MattFancy]

Yeah after reading my post again it did kind of look like I was implying that Gibbs handed it off to Shanny. That was obviously not the case.  But it does not change the fact that Shanny inherited the team as I described it and Gibbs trading away so many picks did play a part in that roster down the road 2 years. 

 

So what about Shanny trading picks for McNabb, Jamaal Brown, Hightower and Griffin?

[Supreme Wu]

I was thinking of some other areas of comparison.. i guess out of boredom.

 

On D -

 

Gibbs 2.0: Snags Gregg Williams, grants him autonomy, team has top ten defense 3 out of 4 years

 

Shanahan: 'Snags' Haslett, apparently even meddles with him, team has a miserable defense 4 out of 4 years (not excusing Haslett but if you hire a sucky guy at least let him suck on his own terms. And maybe he did, who knows, either way it didnt work for crap)

 

They may have both done dumb things but dang, outside of a seven game win streak, Shanahan really stank it up across the board.

[pjfootballer]

No problem. I apologize if I misrepresented your position.  But let's not pretend that you did not become salty which kind of set this entire thing in motion. 

 

But if I misquoted your position I was wrong and I apologize. 

 

I apoligize if I came off too salty.  I just had to defend myself a little.

 

FWIW, I always felt bad for Kyle.  He was in "damned if he does, damned if he doesn't situation."  I think he is a bright up and coming coach and proved in Houston that he didn't need his dad to suceed.

[TSO]

So that would have been during the Gibbs II tenure.  I get it, he is Joe Gibbs. But it's amazing how little flack he gets for his trades yet people are still harping on the McNabb trade under Shanny.

 

I did a breakdown a few years ago on another board and it was really really bad.  Trading up and drafting Jason Campbell, trading up to draft that RT from Penn State who never played, bilked out of a 2nd in the Champ for Portis deal, TJ Duckett, Brandon Lloyd, a 3rd for the old guard from the Jets who played like a year..  It was something like 2 1's, a 2, 3 3's and 3 4ths for nothing.   His short sighted moves gutted the team's future.

 

But since it was Joe Gibbs, and not Mike Shanahan, it's as if he somehow gets a pass.

 

This isn't really hard to figure out, actually (in regards to the trades, not the overall job either coach did). All you have to do is look at the posters who are obsessed with controlling the narrative on Mike and making sure he is as vilified as humanly possible for a football coach, tie it with their views on our QBs and, surprise! Almost right down the board you'll find they're totally consistent.

 

They also are the same contingent vilifying (or attempting to, subtly) Gruden now. This is true in the vast majority of these cases, though I'm sure there are exceptions. 

 

As soon as Mike went head to head with Robert, or even showed signs of opposition towards Robert's actions, it was over for him with these posters. Same for Gruden. They are obsessive and they're a big reason why Jumbo created a thread for that, uhm, stuff to be filtered into, lol. And vice versa, of course. 

 

They are right about some things and Mike certainly was a big failure here overall, but never let them fool you into thinking their extreme distaste (key word: extreme, a base level of distaste is totally acceptable and natural) for Mike - or Gruden, for that matter - has to do with the other failures as much as it has to do with Robert. The proof is in the pudding. They were silent on both coaches, and their perceived failures, for the most part until they openly showed their issues with Robert. Some of them even defended those coaches adamantly before those occurrences. 

 

When Joe Gibbs benched Ramsey in 2005, he was bashed considerably, too. I haven't forgotten that. Had the 2005 season not ended in a playoff run with Brunell performing pretty well the majority of the season, it would've been certainly been a sticking point. Now, he is Joe Gibbs so probably wouldn't have been nearly as bad. I wonder had he returned in 2007 and given the job to Todd Collins over Campbell (plenty of rumors and reasoning that would happen at the time), how some would've reacted.

 

You'd have seen a lot more of what you see taking place now, that's for sure.

 

Now, speaking to your overall point about Joe Gibbs versus Shanahan, I think it's okay to give Gibbs a pass since he's done so much for this franchise. I agree, we shouldn't simply overlook everything to the point where we can't have a discussion about Gibbs' failures the second go around, but it's understandable why he'd be forgiven much quicker than Mike or even Gruden if he fails.  

 

In the end, I suppose it's natural. Robert was a huge part of the best season we've had as Skins fans in the last two decades, with the team breaking records left and right. To see it all fall apart was devastating and some are too emotionally tied to Robert because of that season, as opposed to anyone else who contributed to it.

 

I can honestly say I was too emotionally tied to the Shanahan's myself for the jobs they did then as well, so it was hard for me to let go when they made bad coaching decision after bad decision in 2013. A little cognitive dissonance is natural, but, eventually, you got to accept what's in front of you.        

[TheLongshot]

Yeah after reading my post again it did kind of look like I was implying that Gibbs handed it off to Shanny. That was obviously not the case.  But it does not change the fact that Shanny inherited the team as I described it and Gibbs trading away so many picks did play a part in that roster down the road 2 years. 

 

Again, had Vinny knew how to draft, maybe it wouldn't have been so bad.  Vinny had drafted 16 players.  Of those, six were still on the roster when Shanahan opened the season.  (Devin Thomas, Fred Davis, Rob Jackson, Chris Horton, Brian Orakpo, Kevin Barnes.)  Thomas was gone that season, Horton was gone the following and Barnes never saw a lot of action.  That overall was a pretty poor return.

[Darrell Green Fan]

So what about Shanny trading picks for McNabb, Jamaal Brown, Hightower and Griffin?

 

 

Again I addressed this already.  I said a few times that if Griff fails that changes the equation.  But it hasn't happened yet and the bashing of the McNabb (and Brown) trade has been going on for years.  Again I feel it's unfair to bash Shanny for McNabb while giving Joe Gibbs a pass for all the bad moves he has made.  That is how I started this entire discussion

 

I now understand after reading thesubmittedone's post above.  It clarifies things but hardly makes it right IMO. 

Again, had Vinny knew how to draft, maybe it wouldn't have been so bad.  Vinny had drafted 16 players.  Of those, six were still on the roster when Shanahan opened the season.  (Devin Thomas, Fred Davis, Rob Jackson, Chris Horton, Brian Orakpo, Kevin Barnes.)  Thomas was gone that season, Horton was gone the following and Barnes never saw a lot of action.  That overall was a pretty poor return.

 

 

Agreed. But it doesn't change the fact that so many want to give Gibbs a pass for pissing away a 1, a 2, 2 3rds and 3 4ths while Shanahan gets ripped a new one for giving up a 2nd, 3rd and a 4th for McNabb (who later turned into Alfred Morris) and Brown. 

[TheLongshot]

Agreed. But it doesn't change the fact that so many want to give Gibbs a pass for pissing away a 1, a 2, 2 3rds and 3 4ths.  The same group who wants to rip Shanny a new one for giving up a 2nd, 3rd and a 4th for McNabb (who later turned into Alfred Morris) and Brown. 

 

I'm hoping you aren't including Campbell in those numbers, because I wouldn't.  Same that I wouldn't hold the trade for RG3 against Shanahan.  That just goes toward the overall draft record. Let's just limit this argument to trades for veteran players.

 

People were mad at the wasted picks from 2006 and 2007, particularly since some of the trades were pretty damn stupid.  Course, it helped that Gibbs admitted that a lot of those trades were a mistake and that the focus would be on keeping their draft picks going forward, which they mostly did.  Shanahan never did anything similar.  Personally, I don't hold that against him, but given his rather poor draft record and seeing this team really no better than when he got here, it is really disheartening.  With Gibbs, I felt he really was going for the brass ring, while Shanahan muddled in mediocrity.

[Darrell Green Fan]

I'm hoping you aren't including Campbell in those numbers, because I wouldn't.  Same that I wouldn't hold the trade for RG3 against Shanahan.  That just goes toward the overall draft record. Let's just limit this argument to trades for veteran players.

 

People were mad at the wasted picks from 2006 and 2007, particularly since some of the trades were pretty damn stupid.  Course, it helped that Gibbs admitted that a lot of those trades were a mistake and that the focus would be on keeping their draft picks going forward, which they mostly did.  Shanahan never did anything similar.  Personally, I don't hold that against him, but given his rather poor draft record and seeing this team really no better than when he got here, it is really disheartening.  With Gibbs, I felt he really was going for the brass ring, while Shanahan muddled in mediocrity.

 

 

You don't think trading for Griffin was going for the brass ring?  I thought that had a better chance at success than riding something called Todd Collins did. 

[TSO]

DGF - I just went through the last couple pages (I replied to your post above before I saw it all). I just wanted to say great job keeping this discussion from getting out of hand and staying level-headed even in the face of being ganged up on a bit. That also goes for the majority of those who've responded to you.  

 

Not saying those who hold the opposing views are incorrect, I totally see where they're coming from and understand why they're in the majority, but you're making your points, as unpopular as they are, in a way that everyone should reasonably consider and it's lead to a (in my mind) nice discussion. So, again, well done.   

[Darrell Green Fan]

DGF - I just went through the last couple pages (I replied to your post before I saw it all). I just wanted to say great job keeping this discussion from getting out of hand and staying level-headed even in the face of being ganged up on a bit. That also goes for the majority of those who've responded to you.  

 

Not saying those who hold the opposing views are incorrect, I totally see where there coming from and understand why they're in the majority, but you're making your points, as unpopular as they are, in a way that everyone should reasonably consider and it's lead to a (in my mind) nice discussion. So, again, well done.   

 

 

Thanks for this.  It's not easy being the only one on one side of an argument but I agree, it was a good discussion and I'm glad it didn't get out of hand.  Thanks to everyone involved for that.  . 

 

It's difficult at time being the voice of reason in a room full of idiots but I do what I can.

 

OK I'm KIDDING on that last part. 

[TSO]

It's difficult at time being the voice of reason in a room full of idiots but I do what I can.

 

OK I'm KIDDING on that last part. 

 

lol, nice save, almost ruined it right there. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

 

 

Agreed. But it doesn't change the fact that so many want to give Gibbs a pass for pissing away a 1, a 2, 2 3rds and 3 4ths while Shanahan gets ripped a new one for giving up a 2nd, 3rd and a 4th for McNabb (who later turned into Alfred Morris) and Brown. 

 

When the dust settle and everything is boiled down this has been my position.  This bashing of Shanahan didn't stat last week.  Hell it didn't start last year. It started the year McNabb flamed out here and before they traded up for Griff. 

 

I just don't see how you can give a pass for 5-6 mistakes and rip another guy mercilessly for making 2 that weren't nearly as costly simply because you like one coach and don't like the other one. 

[hail2skins]

When the dust settle and everything is boiled down this has been my position.  This bashing of Shanahan didn't stat last week.  Hell it didn't start last year. It started the year McNabb flamed out here and before they traded up for Griff. 

 

I just don't see how you can give a pass for 5-6 mistakes and rip another guy mercilessly for making 2 that weren't nearly as costly simply because you like one coach and don't like the other one. 

I just think Gibbs 2 is looked upon as somewhat successful by some because he's mainly compared to the miserable two-year tenures of the guy who immediately preceded him and the guy who followed him.  But in general, Joe's second stint here was underwhelming.

 

But Shanny did deserved to be bashed. Even before the salary cap hits, we paid the guy $7 million per year to win less games his first two seasons than either Spurrier and Zorn did. 

[grego]

When the dust settle and everything is boiled down this has been my position. This bashing of Shanahan didn't stat last week. Hell it didn't start last year. It started the year McNabb flamed out here and before they traded up for Griff.

I just don't see how you can give a pass for 5-6 mistakes and rip another guy mercilessly for making 2 that weren't nearly as costly simply because you like one coach and don't like the other one.

To your first point, I was high on shanny for about 3.5 years, defending just about everything he did. Still do, in many cases.

But many didn't like him early on, starting with the Haynesworth stuff. How anyone could have defended Al, I have no idea.

As far as the other stuff, I think a lot of us see Vinny and Dan as more responsible for the state of the team when Gibbs left, rather than Gibbs.

Obviously they've both been deservedly ripped for their role in the mess that is our team.

[abdcskins]

Pretty much agree with everything he said.

[justice98]

You mean the BS stat BSPN created that no one else in the NFL uses or respects?  The stat that ESPN doesn't share the formula for because they know they wouldn't be able to defend it if they did?  That stat?

 

The regular QB rating is no less a BS stat, it's just an accepted BS stat.  There's plenty of those out there.

 

Nobody else uses Total QBR because it's proprietary.  Why would the NFL, or any other media outlet use a stat developed by somebody else?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Pretty much agree with everything he said.

 

With what who said?...Shanahan?

[grego]

With what who said?...Shanahan?

 

 

obviously, hes referring to the post just above his. 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

DGF, you put somewhere in all your posts that you wished people would read and understand your posts.

I think they are.

A quote from "the west wing"(paraphrased. Adam

Sorkin forgive me)

Josh: You aren't listening to me

Toby: yes I am. I am listening, understanding, and disagreeing with you all at the same time.

Fwiw, in my opinion Gibbs/Vinny's personnel record wasn't great, but they got a lot of guys Gibbs was comfortable with, and knew how to coach.

Shanahan had some hits and some misse. But he completely screwed up everything on defense. And he couldnt build a team he could coach consistently

[Darrell Green Fan]

DGF, you put somewhere in all your posts that you wished people would read and understand your posts.

I think they are.

A quote from "the west wing"(paraphrased. Adam

Sorkin forgive me)

Josh: You aren't listening to me

Toby: yes I am. I am listening, understanding, and disagreeing with you all at the same time.

Fwiw, in my opinion Gibbs/Vinny's personnel record wasn't great, but they got a lot of guys Gibbs was comfortable with, and knew how to coach.

Shanahan had some hits and some misse. But he completely screwed up everything on defense. And he couldnt build a team he could coach consistently

 

Morning folks.  Regarding the first line I was referring to one poster in particular when i wrote that, it has been clarified and resolved.  Regarding the last line about building a team he could coach I put that on the QB who turned this team upside down with his diva behavior, with a giant assist from the owner and his father.  The player lied consistently to the coach about the extent of the injury, then threw him under the bus when he got hurt.  Then he pulled the ultimate punk move when coming off his rookie season he met with the coach and demanded plays be stricken from the playbook.  I've never heard of a player doing that, have you?  In the process of doing all this he alienated himself and divided the locker room.  Sorry, I refuse to put that on the coach.  That's on the player, the owner and the dad.

 

People actually sided with Albert Haynesworth???   Good thing I wasn't around then, I would have violated a few rules. 

[grego]

Average? That would require about .500 win pct to qualify as mediocre or average.

Dammit.

How did I miss that softball of a post?

[Burgold]

I've never heard of a player doing that, have you?  In the process of doing all this he alienated himself and divided the locker room. 

 

 

The kid may be flawed, but putting Shanahan's failings on him suggests that Shanny is a worse coach and manager of people then any of us think.  After all, inflated egos and god-syndrome is part and parcel with modern pro sports. Shanny doesn't have the coaching skills to deal with a rookie with an inflated head? He lets it get so out of hand that it destroys team unity.  What kind of pathetic, spineless, brainless, ball-less dope must Mike Shannahan be to be so cowed and undone by a rookie and to let his team completely collapse because of it. 

 

But I'm sure you're right, RGIII is at fault for our special teams and defensive woes.  In fact, all that's bad with the Redskins is RGIII based because over the two years before he was drafted the team was unified, never leaked, and was a disciplined no penalty unit. Do you realize how bad a human being Griffin must be that he destroyed team unity two years before he was even selected!  RGIII was the cause of Shanahan's failures during his entire four year stretch minus that one RGIII run? The whole 4 years where he wasn't even a threat to break .500 once.  Did you see who he selected to replace Danny Smith? Did you see how the defense always folded?

 

And what is RGIII's biggest sin? A move you never heard of? A player wanting to talk strategy with his coach. A quarterback wanting to have input on the passing game. That's something that should happen every game. On other teams, that's something that happens regularly. Oh, but this is bigger. This isn't a QB suggesting a play because he saw a weakness, or to drop a play because of a defensive strength.  RGIII asked to drop a major part of a scheme. He isn't Peyton Manning going to the Broncos!  He isn't a rookie like Andrew Luck! Who is he to try to have an offense tailored to him!

 

(Hyperbole aside. RGIII probably went too far in stating his feelings about the RO especially through his surrogates, but he also backtracked on it pretty quickly. As others pointed out, he was playing RO by game three so he was hardly holding the team hostage. Moreover, good coordinators and coaches desire player feedback and incorporate it while retaining the ability to tell the player to shut up. If they failed to do that, they're terrible coaches)

[grego]

DGF- Robert likely shares some blame.

But who picked him?

Anyway, as far as yesterday's Gibbs discussion, you posted all of Gibbs bad trades and fa signings but never did the same for shanny. If you did, you might see that it's pretty comparable, cuz off the top of my head, I can think of a few.

(Ya, many people defended Al. It was nuts.)