Mike Shanahan Tells All on ESPN 980 (RGIII, McNabb, Manning, Haynseworth) Link included w/ Audio

[pjfootballer]

Again I was simply trying to get you to explain just how costly Gibbs 2 was.  And again you want to give him a lifetime pass and I don't agree with it, I was simply trying to get you to understand why I'm not ready to give him a pass. 

 

I do not understand how you can say Gibbs' moves were for the good of the team and Shanny's were not.  Again more undeserved hate, how do you justify that statement?   I also don't agree that Shanny hiring a bad DC is just as damaging as Gibbs giving away so many picks, picks that could have turned into productive players years after he was gone.  That makes zero sense to me. 

 

Yes and I have admitted that the picks given up under Gibbs were costly.  And I'm trying to get you to understand that the mistakes that Shanahan made were just as equally costly as what Gibbs did.  Draft picks aren't the only relavent factor of a successful head coach. While I will admit (per your other post listing draft picks) that Shanahan probably had better drafts, it doesn't mean we should exclude other failures outside of his drafting, things like team chemistry (the whole rumors/leaks thing), coaching staff assembled (Gibbs always made sure that what he couldn't do, he would hire the right coaches to get it done) and accountabilty/honesty.

 

You keep saying, I "hate" Shanahan.  I don't hate the guy.  I really don't. He made mistakes and here we are now.  I'm ready to move on, but others seem hellbent on upholding his legacy. I just don't care about him anymore. I want to see the team improve and I really just don't care what Shanahan says.

 

The reason I can justify it is because I see one coach who is guy who gave his heart and soul to the team, not once, but twice, while the other guy left in a cloud of controversy.  I'm not sure how much more plain I can get about it.

[grego]

stink is actually alot harder on mike (about whom i had never heard him say a bad word) than i am.

 

http://www.hogshaven.com/2010/12/29/1902428/mark-schlereth-sheds-light-on-shanahans-ego-why-redskins-traded-for

 

 

Back in July, you said Shanahan was very aware of the reason he was out in Denver - the poor personnel decisions in the draft & free agency. Here we are one year into this and the Redskins burned 2 high draft picks for a QB that's out in 1-year & 3rd round pick for a banged up Tackle that will be a free agent in 2 weeks. Is he still a bad GM?

"It's a little bit of a different situation. He had some stability in Denver and he had good players, but he made bad draft choice after bad draft choice. And then he chased those bad draft choices with bad free agent moves. [The Redskins] are an organization that was still lacking some depth and legit, big time Quarterbacks. They tried to patch a hole, obviously. The jury is still out on those moves and how much Mike Shanahan plays in that and how much is on Bruce Allen and the owner."

Well, Warren Sapp said Bruce Allen is nothing more than a guy that plays golf with the alumni and works the salary cap and contracts.

"(laughing). If that's the case...I've known Mike for a very long time in regards to those personnel moves and there are a lot of things you kind of look at and scratch your head and I could go through tons of them that happened in Denver which made zero sense."

For example?

"Let's start with the draft. Ashley Lelie. Really? Deltha O'Neal, who played running back in college at Cal Berkley got switched to defensive back. We drafted him in the first round. Does that truly make sense? Guys like Willie Middlebrooks. You've never heard of them. [Willie was a] defensive back from the Univ. of Minnesota that never panned out. 1

st

 round draft choice. 

George Foster

 -1

st

 round draft choice, who was injured his last year in college with a broken wrist and really couldn't bend his wrist. A lot of people thought he'd be available in the 4

th

 or 5

th

 round and we took him with the 24

th

pick overall in the draft. I can go on and on and on.

[pjfootballer]

 

I just think Shanny's drafts were better over all.  Not great but better. 

 

This I can agree with, although Gibbs was not the GM.  Yes, he had input, but Vinny was running our drafts.

[grego]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/with-mike-shanahans-departure-inevitable-redskins-need-to-hire-a-true-general-manager/2013/12/09/5e032fee-6126-11e3-8beb-3f9a9942850f_story.html

 

In four seasons with the Redskins, Shanahan, as head coach and vice president of football operations, has had total control over the roster. Bruce Allen, who holds the title of general manager, has played only a supporting role. On player-personnel matters, Shanahan mostly receives input from Scott Campbell, director of player personnel, and Morocco Brown, director of pro personnel. Shanahan doesn’t value Allen’s input, some in the organization say, because Allen isn’t considered a strong talent-evaluator. That’s a problem.

 

Although Campbell and Brown are respected within the NFL, neither could challenge, let alone overrule, Shanahan on roster matters. That’s the way Shanahan wanted it. He came to Washington to run the whole show. But Shanahan’s record with the Redskins is 24-37. Even if you account for the problems created by the two-year salary cap penalty imposed by the league, it is obvious Shanahan needed more help picking players. The Redskins need a better system of checks and balances in that key area.

Truth is, Shanahan shouldn’t have been given player-personnel authority. Denver Broncos owner Pat Bowlen fired Shanahan after the 2008 season in large part because of his missteps in building the Broncos’ roster. It was said then that the performance of Shanahan the player-personnel man undermined Shanahan the two-time Super Bowl-winning coach. Shanahan, however, brought much-needed credibility to the Redskins at a time they desperately needed it, so Snyder gave him everything he requested.

[Darrell Green Fan]

Yes and I have admitted that the picks given up under Gibbs were costly.  And I'm trying to get you to understand that the mistakes that Shanahan made were just as equally costly as what Gibbs did.  Draft picks aren't the only relavent factor of a successful head coach. While I will admit (per your other post listing draft picks) that Shanahan probably had better drafts, it doesn't mean we should exclude other failures outside of his drafting, things like team chemistry (the whole rumors/leaks thing), coaching staff assembled (Gibbs always made sure that what he couldn't do, he would hire the right coaches to get it done) and accountabilty/honesty.

 

You keep saying, I "hate" Shanahan.  I don't hate the guy.  I really don't. He made mistakes and here we are now.  I'm ready to move on, but others seem hellbent on upholding his legacy. I just don't care about him anymore. I want to see the team improve and I really just don't care what Shanahan says.

 

The reason I can justify it is because I see one coach who is guy who gave his heart and soul to the team, not once, but twice, while the other guy left in a cloud of controversy.  I'm not sure how much more plain I can get about it.

 

 

Again my position has been to argue against those who see Shanny's time here as a complete and utter disaster while Gibbs' time here was either seen as a mild success or he has been somehow given a lifetime pass for all the screw ups he did in round 2.  I just don't agree with that and that's been my position throughout the thread, I've tried to back my position with evidence. 

 

I understand why you are bitter at Shanny and still love Mr. Gibbs.  I get it, I really do. But I just disagree with a  lot of your thoughts.  And  I will stand by my position, Gibbs 2.0 was an equally bad disaster for the team, IMO it was worse than Shanny's regime for the reasons I have posted.

[grego]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/personnel-moves-not-shanahans-strength/article/18357

 

The Denver Broncos wanted to improve their line and sought a quick fix. So they brought in two former Cleveland Browns, a group that failed to achieve much before coming to Denver. For one season they helped Denver.

But their reputations suggested it wouldn't last.

"They were just fingers in the dyke," one NFL source said.

Still, Mike Shanahan rewarded Gerard Warren with a six-year contract. He extended Courtney Browns' deal as well. A year later Warren was cut and the injury-prone Brown suffered another one. And Denver continued its search for an improved line.

Few question Mike Shanahan's moves on the field as a coach. Many doubt what he can do when it comes to acquiring personnel..........................................

 

He used three defensive coordinators in his last three years, firing Larry Coyer, who had the best results and is Indianapolis' defensive coordinator. He also paid big money to players such as Warren and defensive tackles Dewayne Robertson and Daryl Gardener, both of whom had questionable character. Neither worked.

"As an offensive guy, he's exceptional," one general manager said. "but as a decision maker, he's [terrible]. I watched how many defensive coordinators he had in; how he drafted players. It's a win-now mentality. He's going to be very expensive because his mistakes are expensive and to correct them is expensive. He wears you out and he does things desperately, not soundly ... He knows good offense. He knows running backs and receivers. But he's not a CEO head coach type."

When it came to the draft, Shanahan did most of his scouting off highlight films. He did not attend the Senior Bowl; and he would only briefly attend the scouting combine, say multiple NFL sources.

"He does not respect the process," one NFL source said. "That creates risk."

And despite the personnel problems, they managed to stay competitive because of the offense.

Denver guard Mark Schlereth said, "It's a testament, despite the poor draft picks and poor free agent choices, that he put a winner on the field consistently."

[Darrell Green Fan]

This I can agree with, although Gibbs was not the GM.  Yes, he had input, but Vinny was running our drafts.

 

 

Again I was responding to this post:

 

Shanahan didn't throw away draft picks like Gibbs, but he didn't do a good job of maximizing the one's he did have.

 

The only way to compare the 2 was to list the draft picks to see if Shanny's draft mistakes offset all the picks Gibbs gave away.  In my opinion they did not. 

[Peregrine]

Gibbs won more games.  Enough said.  You can go "This wasnt his fault, or that wasnt, or look at mitigating factor #3", but the reality is both were head coaches with full responsibility, and one performed better in 4 years.  Not only did Gibbs average about 8-8, compared to Shanahans 6-10 average, but in 4 years Gibbs teams had a combined point differential of -4.  They were competitive.  Shanahan's had a point differential of -250.  His teams werent even competitive.

[pjfootballer]

Again my position has been to argue against those who see Shanny's time here as a complete and utter disaster while Gibbs' time here was either seen as a mild success or he has been somehow given a lifetime pass for all the screw ups he did in round 2.  I just don't agree with that and that's been my position throughout the thread, backing my position with evidence. 

 

I understand why you are bitter at Shanny and still love Mr. Gibbs.  I get it, I really do. But I just disagree with a  lot of your thought.  And  I will stand by my position, Gibbs 2.0 was an equally bad disaster for the team, IMO it was worse than Shanny's regime for the reasons I have posted.

 

Cool. I'm bitter about Shanahan and love Gibbs. Since you are projecting the way I feel, then it's fair to say you are bitter about Gibbs 2nd run and love Shanahan.  Good to know we're on the same page for once.

 

I wish I could bring more "evidence", but I'm at work and trying to type this on my IPhone. I'm not allowed to be on the internet at work for ES information. Sorry I can't be more involved.

 

Well, this, like other debates is just going in circles. You have your opinion, I have mine. While you sit here and defend Shanahan, I'll be in 2015, waiting to see if the current FO and coach can turn it around. Have fun at the Shanahan appreciation party. I'm done with this.

[Darrell Green Fan]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/personnel-moves-not-shanahans-strength/article/18357

 

The Denver Broncos wanted to improve their line and sought a quick fix. So they brought in two former Cleveland Browns, a group that failed to achieve much before coming to Denver. For one season they helped Denver.

But their reputations suggested it wouldn't last.

"They were just fingers in the dyke," one NFL source said.

Still, Mike Shanahan rewarded Gerard Warren with a six-year contract. He extended Courtney Browns' deal as well. A year later Warren was cut and the injury-prone Brown suffered another one. And Denver continued its search for an improved line.

Few question Mike Shanahan's moves on the field as a coach. Many doubt what he can do when it comes to acquiring personnel..........................................

 

He used three defensive coordinators in his last three years, firing Larry Coyer, who had the best results and is Indianapolis' defensive coordinator. He also paid big money to players such as Warren and defensive tackles Dewayne Robertson and Daryl Gardener, both of whom had questionable character. Neither worked.

"As an offensive guy, he's exceptional," one general manager said. "but as a decision maker, he's [terrible]. I watched how many defensive coordinators he had in; how he drafted players. It's a win-now mentality. He's going to be very expensive because his mistakes are expensive and to correct them is expensive. He wears you out and he does things desperately, not soundly ... He knows good offense. He knows running backs and receivers. But he's not a CEO head coach type."

When it came to the draft, Shanahan did most of his scouting off highlight films. He did not attend the Senior Bowl; and he would only briefly attend the scouting combine, say multiple NFL sources.

"He does not respect the process," one NFL source said. "That creates risk."

And despite the personnel problems, they managed to stay competitive because of the offense.

Denver guard Mark Schlereth said, "It's a testament, despite the poor draft picks and poor free agent choices, that he put a winner on the field consistently."

 

So you are breaking out a handful of bad moves by Shanny to prove what point again?  The key phrase in your post to me was the last part, the part about winning consistently.

Cool. I'm bitter about Shanahan and love Gibbs. Since you are projecting the way I feel, then it's fair to say you are bitter about Gibbs 2nd run and love Shanahan.  Good to know we're on the same page for once.

 

I wish I could bring more "evidence", but I'm at work and trying to type this on my IPhone. I'm not allowed to be on the internet at work for ES information. Sorry I can't be more involved.

 

Well, this, like other debates is just going in circles. You have your opinion, I have mine. While you sit here and defend Shanahan, I'll be in 2015, waiting to see if the current FO and coach can turn it around. Have fun at the Shanahan appreciation party. I'm done with this.

 

 

Actually I don't love Shanny, just thinking he's getting too much hate and people are quick to dismiss the problems under Mr. Gibbs for some reason

 

I'd love to see Shanny get another job, just as I was happy to see Kyle succeed when people like you no doubt said he was only here because of his last name.

 

So it goes I guess.

[grego]

Again my position has been to argue against those who see Shanny's time here as a complete and utter disaster while Gibbs' time here was either seen as a mild success or he has been somehow given a lifetime pass for all the screw ups he did in round 2.  I just don't agree with that and that's been my position throughout the thread, I've tried to back my position with evidence. 

 

I understand why you are bitter at Shanny and still love Mr. Gibbs.  I get it, I really do. But I just disagree with a  lot of your thoughts.  And  I will stand by my position, Gibbs 2.0 was an equally bad disaster for the team, IMO it was worse than Shanny's regime for the reasons I have posted.

 

 

DGF- any way you phrase it, youre going to have a hard time convincing anyone that gibbs 2.0 was bad (or worse, IYO) than mike. 

 

humble, 3 time super bowl winner, HOFer, legend here, making the playoffs 2 out of 4 years after going once in the decade + since he left.

 

compared to a guy who has no ties to us, egomaniac, hadnt done much of anything in years, 3 out of 4 abysmal seasons.....

 

not really sure what else to tell you.

[Peregrine]

Again my position has been to argue against those who see Shanny's time here as a complete and utter disaster while Gibbs' time here was either seen as a mild success or he has been somehow given a lifetime pass for all the screw ups he did in round 2.  

But I think as a Redskins fan it WAS a mild success.  I think its justified to give a pass to a guy who in 16 seasons, has lead the Redskins to the playoffs in 10 of them, and won all 3 superbowls the Redskins have.  In the other 31 seasons, the Redskins have made the playoffs(super bowl era) only 7 times.  Heck, if you take out Allens 5 playoff years, coaches not named Allen or Gibbs have lead the Redskins to 2 playoff appearances in 24 years.  Thats sad.  

 

All that said, he doesnt need a pass.  I would call it a mild success to make the playoffs 2 times in 4 years.  Since he last left, its been 2 playoff appearances in 18 years for the other coaches combined.  I would call that a mild success.

[Darrell Green Fan]

Gibbs won more games.  Enough said.  You can go "This wasnt his fault, or that wasnt, or look at mitigating factor #3", but the reality is both were head coaches with full responsibility, and one performed better in 4 years.  Not only did Gibbs average about 8-8, compared to Shanahans 6-10 average, but in 4 years Gibbs teams had a combined point differential of -4.  They were competitive.  Shanahan's had a point differential of -250.  His teams werent even competitive.

 

 

I started this discussion by saying I didn't want to compare the 2 by their records but of course it always comes to this.  Again I wasn't comparing the records so much as pointing out how many short sited moves he made and how the effected the team after he was gone.  And again he gets a pass for this because he is a great guy who won Super Bowls when Ronald Reagan was in office.  I just don't see it that way.

[TheLongshot]

Again my position has been to argue against those who see Shanny's time here as a complete and utter disaster while Gibbs' time here was either seen as a mild success or he has been somehow given a lifetime pass for all the screw ups he did in round 2.  I just don't agree with that and that's been my position throughout the thread, I've tried to back my position with evidence. 

 

I understand why you are bitter at Shanny and still love Mr. Gibbs.  I get it, I really do. But I just disagree with a  lot of your thoughts.  And  I will stand by my position, Gibbs 2.0 was an equally bad disaster for the team, IMO it was worse than Shanny's regime for the reasons I have posted.

 

I think Shanahan is more upsetting because you'd think we should have learned from the Gibbs experience.  I always saw it as trying to repeat the Gibbs experience without it being Joe Gibbs.  We saw it didn't work the first time, so why try it again?

 

Course, one thing you never doubted with Gibbs was that he was trying his best to put out the best team possible.

[Darrell Green Fan]

DGF- any way you phrase it, youre going to have a hard time convincing anyone that gibbs 2.0 was bad (or worse, IYO) than mike. 

 

humble, 3 time super bowl winner, HOFer, legend here, making the playoffs 2 out of 4 years after going once in the decade + since he left.

 

compared to a guy who has no ties to us, egomaniac, hadnt done much of anything in years, 3 out of 4 abysmal seasons.....

 

not really sure what else to tell you.

 

What about how he left the team?  Does that not mean anything to you?  Or are you ok with 2 9-7 last playoff spot seasons before the bottom fell out due in part to his bad trades that left the team lacking young talent?

[grego]

So you are breaking out a handful of bad moves by Shanny to prove what point again?  The key phrase in your post to me was the last par, the part about winning consistently.

 

 

well, we are discussing mike the GM, no?

 

i googled 'mike shanahan poor personnel moves' and got 3 different articles written by 3 different people, each with different insight on mikes record as a GM.

 

alot of it is pretty damning, imo.

 

what i'm really looking for is a concise list of his FA moves and trades while he was here, cuz there was some bad ones.

 

still, like i said, i'm not that hard on mike in that aspect (maybe i should be, cuz its a lot worse than i was giving him credit for)

[grego]

What about how he left the team?  Does that not mean anything to you?  Or are you ok with 2 9-7 last playoff spot seasons before the bottom fell out due in part to his bad trades that left the team lacking young talent?

 

even if both left the team a trainwreck, i'm telling you why gibbs is remembered far more fondly. and i didnt even take into account how joe never went on the air a year later of getting passed over for several HC jobs hed interviewed for, engaging in double talk that would make a politician blush, deflecting blame everywhere but himself.

 

if you dont see all of that, i dont think youre going to. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

even if both left the team a trainwreck, i'm telling you why gibbs is remembered far more fondly. and i didnt even take into account how joe never went on the air a year later of getting passed over for several HC jobs hed interviewed for, engaging in double talk that would make a politician blush, deflecting blame everywhere but himself.

 

if you dont see all of that, i dont think youre going to. 

 

 

As I tried to tell another posterthat  I totally understand why he still has mad respect for Joe and why he is a Shanny hater.  I was mocked for this for some reason

 

Again I GET why people love Gibbs more than Shanny.  Joe is a great guy and I agree Shanny is a bit of a weasel.  But that does not mean you pass judgement on the jobs the 2 did based on personal feelings.  That does not mean you annoint one guy a success as you totally overlook and/or dismiss his bad moves and you state that the other coach you do not like was a complete failure when the truth is their regimes are very comparable. .  That is what I mean by not being fair

 

And again Joe Gibbs never had a need to go on the air to clear up some misconceptions, he was not getting trashed the say Shanahan has been trashed.   Mike was just trying to set the record straight and I totally believe his story about the diva QB and the enabling owner crippling any chance at success he had here.

[TheLongshot]

What about how he left the team?  Does that not mean anything to you?  Or are you ok with 2 9-7 last playoff spot seasons before the bottom fell out due in part to his bad trades that left the team lacking young talent?

 

Well, it might not have been so bad if Vinny actually knew how to build a team.  Or that we had the same personnel department that did mediocre drafts after mediocre drafts.  As I said before, you can hold the person in charge responsible, but some of that also goes to the personnel staff who has failed us for a decade.

[Darrell Green Fan]

Well, it might not have been so bad if Vinny actually knew how to build a team.  Or that we had the same personnel department that did mediocre drafts after mediocre drafts.  As I said before, you can hold the person in charge responsible, but some of that also goes to the personnel staff who has failed us for a decade.

 

 

Agreed Vinny didn't help.  But again I listed all the picks Mr. Gibbs wasted earlier in the thread and that was as big a factor IMO.  Don't you agree?  Again it was a first, a second,  2 thirds and 3 fourths

[grego]

 But that does not mean you pass judgement on the jobs the 2 did based on personal feelings.  

 

forget personal feelings. gibbs got a playoff starved team to the playoffs 2 times in 4 years. mike did it once in 4, with 3 of those years being terrible.

 

you said this 

Gibbs 2.0 was an equally bad disaster for the team, IMO it was worse than Shanny's regime for the reasons I have posted.

 

 

i think you may be the only person in the world who isnt seeing it. 

[MattFancy]

Wait, so are we saying now that Shanny did a better jobs than Gibbs? Is this a joke?

 

Gibbs 2.0 - 30-34, 2 playoff apperances, 1 postseason win

Shanahan - 24-40, 1 playoff apperance, 0 postseason wins

 

I'm not sure how you could even try to justify Shanny doing a better job than Gibbs.

[TheLongshot]

Agreed Vinny didn't help.  But again I listed all the picks Mr. Gibbs wasted earlier in the thread and that was as big a factor IMO.  Don't you agree?  Again it was a first, a second,  2 thirds and 3 fourths

 

Really when you are talking about wasted picks, you are talking about one year, 2006. Up until then they had a good measured approach to building a winner.  Then the playoffs had them selling out for a Superbowl run, and they overstepped their bounds and made some dumb decisions. But, it was all because they believed they could get deep into the playoffs.

 

We never were to that point with Shanahan.  In fact, we were awful until RG3 got here.  Then Shanahan rode him hard until he broke.

[pjfootballer]

I'd love to see Shanny get another job, just as I was happy to see Kyle succeed when people like you no doubt said he was only here because of his last name.

 

So it goes I guess.

 

I tried to move on, but now you are just out and out right accusing me of something I never said and lumping me in with Shanny haters. Prove it!  Anywhere in this entire site, please pull up one post where "I" said that Kyle got his job because of his name. Generalizing without evidence makes you look foolish.

 

As I tried to tell another posterthat  I totally understand why he still has mad respect for Joe and why he is a Shanny hater.  I was mocked for this for some reason

 

 

Again, prove it!  You are pretty much generalizing what I am and what I'm not. Find the post anywhere in here where I said "I hate Shanahan." 

 

I think it's time you leave me out of it. I've said my peace and I'm moving on. I suggest you move on from my quotes. You're on a slippery slope with accusations you can't back up.

[Darrell Green Fan]

Wait, so are we saying now that Shanny did a better jobs than Gibbs? Is this a joke?

 

Gibbs 2.0 - 30-34, 2 playoff apperances, 1 postseason win

Shanahan - 24-40, 1 playoff apperance, 0 postseason wins

 

I'm not sure how you could even try to justify Shanny doing a better job than Gibbs.

 

 

You know what would be really awesome right about now?  If people would actually read and understand my posts.  I never said I was comparing the records.  In fact I said it twice.  I was again comparing how they left the team moving forward and how Gibbs' short sighted trades left the team void of young talent.  And again I was disputing the claim that Gibbs era was ok and the Shanny era was a complete disaster when all things considered (young talent, cap situation as well as over all record) they were in fact very comparable.

 

When he got here Shanny had the oldest roster in the league, a roster with no depth, no youth, and a terrible cap situation.  To compare his sitiuation to Gibbs by record only is simply not what I"ve been talking about.

I tried to move on, but now you are just out and out right accusing me of something I never said and lumping me in with Shanny haters. Prove it!  Anywhere in this entire site, please pull up one post where "I" said that Kyle got his job because of his name. Generalizing without evidence makes you look foolish.

 

 

Again, prove it!  You are pretty much generalizing what I am and what I'm not. Find the post anywhere in here where I said "I hate Shanahan." 

 

I think it's time you leave me out of it. I've said my peace and I'm moving on. I suggest you move on from my quotes. You're on a slippery slope with accusations you can't back up.

 

 

No problem. I apologize if I misrepresented your position.  But let's not pretend that you did not become salty which kind of set this entire thing in motion. 

 

But if I misquoted your position I was wrong and I apologize.