Mike Shanahan Tells All on ESPN 980 (RGIII, McNabb, Manning, Haynseworth) Link included w/ Audio

[Darrell Green Fan]

The kid may be flawed, but putting Shanahan's failings on him suggests that Shanny is a worse coach and manager of people then any of us think.  After all, inflated egos and god-syndrome is part and parcel with modern pro sports. Shanny doesn't have the coaching skills to deal with a rookie with an inflated head? He lets it get so out of hand that it destroys team unity.  What kind of pathetic, spineless, brainless, ball-less dope must Mike Shannahan be to be so cowed and undone by a rookie and to let his team completely collapse because of it. 

 

But I'm sure you're right, RGIII is at fault for our special teams and defensive woes.  In fact, all that's bad with the Redskins is RGIII based because over the two years before he was drafted the team was unified, never leaked, and was a disciplined no penalty unit. Do you realize how bad a human being Griffin must be that he destroyed team unity two years before he was even selected!  RGIII was the cause of Shanahan's failures during his entire four year stretch minus that one RGIII run? The whole 4 years where he wasn't even a threat to break .500 once.  Did you see who he selected to replace Danny Smith? Did you see how the defense always folded?

 

And what is RGIII's biggest sin? A move you never heard of? A player wanting to talk strategy with his coach. A quarterback wanting to have input on the passing game. That's something that should happen every game. On other teams, that's something that happens regularly. Oh, but this is bigger. This isn't a QB suggesting a play because he saw a weakness, or to drop a play because of a defensive strength.  RGIII asked to drop a major part of a scheme. He isn't Peyton Manning going to the Broncos!  He isn't a rookie like Andrew Luck! Who is he to try to have an offense tailored to him!

 

(Hyperbole aside. RGIII probably went too far in stating his feelings about the RO especially through his surrogates, but he also backtracked on it pretty quickly. As others pointed out, he was playing RO by game three so he was hardly holding the team hostage. Moreover, good coordinators and coaches desire player feedback and incorporate it while retaining the ability to tell the player to shut up. If they failed to do that, they're terrible coaches)

 

 

Describing Griffin's biggest sin as "having input on the passing game" is like describing deion sanders as "kind of boisterous".   This wasn't input, it was a demand. By a rookie.

 

 

But it wasn't just Shanny not being able to handle an ego, he was trying to get a handle on an ego that was enabled and empowered by the owner.  This is a unique situation and hardly the same thing as trying to get a young ego in check.  But you guys continue to try to give the owner a pass in all of this for some reason and put it all on the coach.

 

You may be fine with a rookie QB demanding, yes demanding, plays be taken out of the playbook but not me.  Again the fact that he finally agreed to run the RO, reluctantly by the way and he's STILL not happy with it, has nothing to do with what he did when Shanahan was here.  That is insane to give the guy a pass for that. And again I was a huge Griffin guy until recently.

 

As for the defense and teams no question that was on Shanny.  But again they were a problem in 2012 as well and they won a division. The biggest factor, by far, between 10-6 and 3-13 was the play, and attitude, of the QB.  Period.

DGF- Robert likely shares some blame.

But who picked him?

Anyway, as far as yesterday's Gibbs discussion, you posted all of Gibbs bad trades and fa signings but never did the same for shanny. If you did, you might see that it's pretty comparable, cuz off the top of my head, I can think of a few.

(Ya, many people defended Al. It was nuts.)

 

 

Be my guest.  Again the Griffin trade is not a done deal, now a year from now he will be on the books one way or another.  But again my position was fans have been ragging on Shanny since the McNabb trade, not so with all the Gibbs mistakes.  So I have illustrated those moves to show just how bad they were.  If you are going to go deep into Shanny this thing will run for another week.  I don't think it's necessary, again my point was people gave Joe Gibbs a total pass for a ton of mistakes and I just don't agree with that.

[Wyvern]

From my perspective, one of the key issues that one can take issue with Shanahan on, is his insistence on going for a 3-4 defense, when he already had a decent amount of time-tested players best suited for the 4-3.

The 3-4 may be the defense to have in place for today's NFL offenses, but at that time it had the effect of 'overhauling something that wasn't really broken'. The fallout from that, did not improve the defense in the short run. As you know, Haynesworth immediately balked at becoming a NT, and eventually you had all that drama. Carter (one of the better DEs) was no longer as effective in his new role. Moreover, it meant the Skins needed to draft lots of 3-4 linebackers, and spend FA dollars on more prototypical 3-4 d-linemen. And candidly, these $$ were needed elsewhere.

To be fair about Shanahan's decision to build a 3-4, it does seem to be be the defense of choice these days; moreover Shanahan might have had a better working 3-4 in place in due course, assuming those cap penalties hadn't been placed on the team.

[grego]

 

 

Be my guest.  Again the Griffin trade is not a done deal, now a year from now he will be on the books one way or another.  But again my position was fans have been ragging on Shanny since the McNabb trade, not so with all the Gibbs mistakes.  So I have illustrated those moves to show just how bad they were.  If you are going to go deep into Shanny this thing will run for another week.  I don't think it's necessary, again my point was people gave Joe Gibbs a total pass for a ton of mistakes and I just don't agree with that.

 

 

but, DGF, if your point was that people criticize shanny for bad personnel moves while letting gibbs off the hook, why would you post virtually every bad trade or signing by gibbs but not mikes? all you posted from mike was his draft picks. and it doesnt help that you messed up with some of gibbs signings and initially blamed him for the devin thomas, comb and sleepy davis draft.

 

you said 'be my guest', but youre the one trying to make the argument. 

[goskins10]

  Regarding the last line about building a team he could coach I put that on the QB who turned this team upside down with his diva behavior, with a giant assist from the owner and his father.  The player lied consistently to the coach about the extent of the injury, then threw him under the bus when he got hurt.  Then he pulled the ultimate punk move when coming off his rookie season he met with the coach and demanded plays be stricken from the playbook.  I've never heard of a player doing that, have you?  In the process of doing all this he alienated himself and divided the locker room.  Sorry, I refuse to put that on the coach.  That's on the player, the owner and the dad.

 

People actually sided with Albert Haynesworth???   Good thing I wasn't around then, I would have violated a few rules. 

 

I know I am late to this but it has gotten to a point I can't sit and watch.

 

You state these as if they are fact. None of it known as fact. You call RGIII a diva. Was he -  Is he - Immature? Absolutely, but Diva? That's a huge stretch and a personal opinion and personal interpretations of his actions or inaction. So many things he has said havce been taken so completely out of context. The whole "comparing himself to Brady and Rogers. He spent the first 80% of the interview stating emphatically, I need to get better, I played bad, right now I am bad, I made too many mistakes. then he says, on top of that the whole team needs to play better. All that gets printed is RGIII compares himself to Rogers and Brady. Total BS.

 

Then you say he lied constantly about the health of his leg - Please show me the players that don't tell coach they are good to go when they have injuries? When other players do it they are sucking it up for their team, when RGIII does it he a big liar??  That's a huge double standard, the kind of double standard that permeates every discussion about RGIII.

 

Then you believe MS in the whole RGIII "demanded" they take plays out of the playbook. QBs have since the beginning of time asked not to run plays, because they are uncomfortable with them. I have seen 1000 times on this board people being pissed because they don't think Gruden is adjusting his Off enough to match the players- Garcon, Reed, AM, RGIII, etc. All great HCs will ask the QB what he likes and try to run it. But again RGIII says he prefers (I seriously doubt he DEMANDED) not to run certain plays, he is doing what every other QB since the beginning of football has done. When other players do it, they are playing smart. But RGIII does the same and he get raked over the coal. More importantly, if you go to your boss and "demand " changes, if they do so, who's fault is that? They are the boss!  They have to have enough gonads to say NO! That is 90% on the coach.  

 

Also, I saw in a few other posts you believe "many" people give Gibbs a pass. I disagree. Some may, but not that many. Myself, I believe the worst 2 moves Gibbs made were: Ryan Clark for Adam Artuletta, trading Champ Bailey - Portis was a great player,  but you can find RBs much easier than shut down CBs - and finally bringing Mark Brunell in as the starting QB. He was horrible.

 

Finally, I thought MS handled A Haynsworth perfectly. That tub of lazy goo had to be cut from the heard.

 

 

Just my thoughts.

[Darrell Green Fan]

but, DGF, if your point was that people criticize shanny for bad personnel moves while letting gibbs off the hook, why would you post virtually every bad trade or signing by gibbs but not mikes? all you posted from mike was his draft picks. and it doesnt help that you messed up with some of gibbs signings and initially blamed him for the devin thomas, comb and sleepy davis draft.

 

you said 'be my guest', but youre the one trying to make the argument. 

 

 

I illustrated the draft picks to counter a post by another poster.  I already posted on the McNabb and Brown trades because they have been the most discussed, by far and they involved draft picks.  If we want to trot out Josh Morgan I'll counter with a bad lesser profile FA that Gibbs signed.  And away we go. 

 

I just don't see that as necessary, again the issue was how the team was left when the coach was gone and trading draft picks was the topic.  So I illustrated all the picks both coaches spent and the balance sheet is pretty clearly one sided.  And again the point was one coach was trashed for trading picks and the other was given a pass simply based on personal feelings. 

 

And again if (when?) Griffin washes out that changes the discussion.  But I have been talking about what has taken place regarding the feelings on the 2 coaches to date.

 

. 

From my perspective, one of the key issues that one can take issue with Shanahan on, is his insistence on going for a 3-4 defense, when he already had a decent amount of time-tested players best suited for the 4-3.

The 3-4 may be the defense to have in place for today's NFL offenses, but at that time it had the effect of 'overhauling something that wasn't really broken'. The fallout from that, did not improve the defense in the short run. As you know, Haynesworth immediately balked at becoming a NT, and eventually you had all that drama. Carter (one of the better DEs) was no longer as effective in his new role. Moreover, it meant the Skins needed to draft lots of 3-4 linebackers, and spend FA dollars on more prototypical 3-4 d-linemen. And candidly, these $$ were needed elsewhere.

To be fair about Shanahan's decision to build a 3-4, it does seem to be be the defense of choice these days; moreover Shanahan might have had a better working 3-4 in place in due course, assuming those cap penalties hadn't been placed on the team.

 

 

Everyone acts like our defense was great before Shanny got here.  It wasn't.  The name of the game in football is turnovers, by far the most revealing stat on who wins and who loses.  The previous defense may have been top 10 but they rarely won games.  The 3-4 is a defense that forces turnovers so I can see the reason for the move.  It may have not worked out but let's not pretend he turned the Niners defense into the Jags with that decision.

I know I am late to this but it has gotten to a point I can't sit and watch.

 

You state these as if they are fact. None of it known as fact. You call RGIII a diva. Was he -  Is he - Immature? Absolutely, but Diva? That's a huge stretch and a personal opinion and personal interpretations of his actions or inaction. So many things he has said havce been taken so completely out of context. The whole "comparing himself to Brady and Rogers. He spent the first 80% of the interview stating emphatically, I need to get better, I played bad, right now I am bad, I made too many mistakes. then he says, on top of that the whole team needs to play better. All that gets printed is RGIII compares himself to Rogers and Brady. Total BS.

 

Then you say he lied constantly about the health of his leg - Please show me the players that don't tell coach they are good to go when they have injuries? When other players do it they are sucking it up for their team, when RGIII does it he a big liar??  That's a huge double standard, the kind of double standard that permeates every discussion about RGIII.

 

Then you believe MS in the whole RGIII "demanded" they take plays out of the playbook. QBs have since the beginning of time asked not to run plays, because they are uncomfortable with them. I have seen 1000 times on this board people being pissed because they don't think Gruden is adjusting his Off enough to match the players- Garcon, Reed, AM, RGIII, etc. All great HCs will ask the QB what he likes and try to run it. But again RGIII says he prefers (I seriously doubt he DEMANDED) not to run certain plays, he is doing what every other QB since the beginning of football has done. When other players do it, they are playing smart. But RGIII does the same and he get raked over the coal. More importantly, if you go to your boss and "demand " changes, if they do so, who's fault is that? They are the boss!  They have to have enough gonads to say NO! That is 90% on the coach.  

 

Also, I saw in a few other posts you believe "many" people give Gibbs a pass. I disagree. Some may, but not that many. Myself, I believe the worst 2 moves Gibbs made were: Ryan Clark for Adam Artuletta, trading Champ Bailey - Portis was a great player,  but you can find RBs much easier than shut down CBs - and finally bringing Mark Brunell in as the starting QB. He was horrible.

 

Finally, I thought MS handled A Haynsworth perfectly. That tub of lazy goo had to be cut from the heard.

 

 

Just my thoughts.

 

I honestly have no idea how much more noise you need to hear on Robert Griffin before you get it that he is a huge part of the problem here.  If you don't believe it by now I'm wasting my time discussing it.

 

And again I was a huge defender up until the mid point of this year so this is not from a poster with an agenda.

[RedBeast]

Can we all just agree we have sucked for 20 years, due to many peoples errors, and that this **** has to change? Too many people own that blame. Shanahan is just one of them. Who cares what he said? He's history and we can't put the spilled milk back in the cup now.

We need to start a "**** and Moan" thread which would occupy about 50% of the content on this board. God! We sometimes sound like a bunch of old women during menopause!

[Burgold]

I also want to come to defense of Gibbs in the unexpected way.  It has popular to say that Gibbs left the cupboard bare and that the team struggled because of that.  So much so that we are perhaps still reeling from the effects of the Gibbs Roster seven years later. Okay, let's put that thought aside to a degree, because we've had three coaching regimes since that wanted "their" players and who knows how many Gibbs players might have stuck or been developed.

 

I want to put it forth that the team Gibbs left was not in abysmal shape.  After all, not only was it a roster capable of going to the playoffs twice, but it was such a good roster that on sheer talent and instilled discipline alone it made Zorn look like a great head coach for the first half of his rookie coaching season.  Do you remember that strong start? Everybody was getting Zorny. He was not however a great head coach or good strategists.  So why then did his team excel that first half of the year? I put it to you it was not because Gibbs left the team with no talent, no players, no discipline, and no understanding of how to win.

 

Compare that too Shanny's team.  Shanny made it to the playoffs once. His team when taken over by a new rookie head coach (Zorn v Gruden) displayed what in comparison? Take the first eight games and ask yourself who performed better Gruden or Zorn? Which team looked more promising?  Sure, I'd take Gruden's offensive skill positions over Zorn's, but outside of that...?

 

Gibbs, the head coach, left his team in better shape than Shanny, the GM did.  A year later and everyone thinks Shanny's team needs an entire demolition job and maybe has 4 players worth keeping.

 

:allhail: Gibbs

[Darrell Green Fan]

I also want to come to defense of Gibbs in the unexpected way.  It has popular to say that Gibbs left the cupboard bare and that the team struggled because of that.  So much so that we are perhaps still reeling from the effects of the Gibbs Roster seven years later. Okay, let's put that thought aside to a degree, because we've had three coaching regimes since that wanted "their" players and who knows how many Gibbs players might have stuck or been developed.

 

I want to put it forth that the team Gibbs left was not in abysmal shape.  After all, not only was it a roster capable of going to the playoffs twice, but it was such a good roster that on sheer talent and instilled discipline alone it made Zorn look like a great head coach for the first half of his rookie coaching season.  Do you remember that strong start? Everybody was getting Zorny. He was not however a great head coach or good strategists.  So why then did his team excel that first half of the year? I put it to you it was not because Gibbs left the team with no talent, no players, no discipline, and no understanding of how to win.

 

Compare that too Shanny's team.  Shanny made it to the playoffs once. His team when taken over by a new rookie head coach (Zorn v Gruden) displayed what in comparison? Take the first eight games and ask yourself who performed better Gruden or Zorn? Which team looked more promising?  Sure, I'd take Gruden's offensive skill positions over Zorn's, but outside of that...?

 

Gibbs, the head coach, left his team in better shape than Shanny, the GM did.  A year later and everyone thinks Shanny's team needs an entire demolition job and maybe has 4 players worth keeping.

 

:allhail: Gibbs

 

 

This is perhaps the best response I have seen, well done.   I can counter by pointing out that the roster Zorn inherited had no depth what so ever and obviously the lack of young talent due to draft picks traded played a big part in that.  They got off to a fast start but once a few injuries happened and Chris Samuels was suddenly replaced with Stephan Heyer, well that's what happens when you have a thin roster.  Still you make solid points. 

 

Regarding Shanny again he inherited the perhaps the worst roster in the league, the oldest team with very little  young talent and a terrible cap situation.  His first year was pretty much slash and burn as he cut players left and right, most never finding a roster spot in the league again.   He also was handcuffed by a year with virtually no FA movement his first year (look it up, there was virtually no FA movement that off season as the owners agreed to keep spending down before the lockout.  But then again he had no cap space anyway), then a lockout off season with again little to no free agent movement, and finally a cap penalty that killed their 2 year plan.  Does this not factor in at all when evaluating the guy on record alone?   I think it does. 

[goskins10]

 

 

. I honestly have no idea how much more noise you need to hear on Robert Griffin before you get it that he is a huge part of the problem here.  If you don't believe it by now I'm wasting my time discussing it.

 

And again I was a huge defender up until the mid point of this year so this is not from a poster with an agenda.

 

 

So that's all you got out of that? First, I never said Robert was guiltless. He certainly owns some of the problem. I said he was and is still immature. He needs to be more careful what he says and how he says it.

 

But you stated very specifically about him "lying" to the coach, and "demanding" things of the coach and not being willing to put that on MS at all. If you are the boss and you let someone do that to you, then you own it.

 

Again, when someone else wants to paly hurt they are lauded as taking one for the team. Robert does it and he is a jerk liar. And the whole throwing Mike under a bus, he never said hardly a word about the coaches until after MS was gone. All he said he is the coach and I am the player. I do what he says. Then people started filling in all kinds of blanks, many of which were just their own bias.

 

I have no agenda either, I just get tired of the double standard used for Robert all the time.

 

He did not play well the last few years. But neither did the team. And certainly with MS the coaching was just not there. Let's talk about other players under MSs watch. How many players truly get better under him? Name them? Maybe Kerrigan, but having seen him at Purdue I can promise you he will get better every year no matter who the coach. But who else got better?

 

I supported MS right up till when he benched RGIII, not because he did it, but the way he did it. If he wanted to save him, wait till after the bye to put him in. Then move him out early enough so you can truly evaluate Cousins. The team quit on him those last 3 gms. That was horribly mismanaged.

 

Again, the point is he is the HC, and one that supposedly had complete control. Yet now he wants to assign blame to all these other people for what went wrong here. Sorry, I just don't bye it. Everyone involved owns some of the blame, including Robert. But to say MS was bullied by Robert is just crazy, or MS was a really bad manager, even worse than we knew.

[Darrell Green Fan]

So that's all you got out of that? First, I never said Robert was guiltless. He certainly owns some of the problem. I said he was and is still immature. He needs to be more careful what he says and how he says it.

 

But you stated very specifically about him "lying" to the coach, and "demanding" things of the coach and not being willing to put that on MS at all. If you are the boss and you let someone do that to you, then you own it.

 

Again, when someone else wants to paly hurt they are lauded as taking one for the team. Robert does it and he is a jerk liar. And the whole throwing Mike under a bus, he never said hardly a word about the coaches until after MS was gone. All he said he is the coach and I am the player. I do what he says. Then people started filling in all kinds of blanks, many of which were just their own bias.

 

I have no agenda either, I just get tired of the double standard used for Robert all the time.

 

He did not play well the last few years. But neither did the team. And certainly with MS the coaching was just not there. Let's talk about other players under MSs watch. How many players truly get better under him? Name them? Maybe Kerrigan, but having seen him at Purdue I can promise you he will get better every year no matter who the coach. But who else got better?

 

I supported MS right up till when he benched RGIII, not because he did it, but the way he did it. If he wanted to save him, wait till after the bye to put him in. Then move him out early enough so you can truly evaluate Cousins. The team quit on him those last 3 gms. That was horribly mismanaged.

 

Again, the point is he is the HC, and one that supposedly had complete control. Yet now he wants to assign blame to all these other people for what went wrong here. Sorry, I just don't bye it. Everyone involved owns some of the blame, including Robert. But to say MS was bullied by Robert is just crazy, or MS was a really bad manager, even worse than we knew.

 

When 2 different coaching staff as well as most of the locker room, hates your guts that's pretty revealing.  As were his comments recently about his play this season.   He blamed the ankle and the coach, again, for his poor play instead of looking in the mirror.  What exactly does that say?

 

 

Robert lied to his coach about the extent of the injury, he told Trent this on the field.  Then he cried like a little beotch when he was sat down for the Cleveland game even though it was a 2 week minimum.  I can only imagine how he would have reacted had Shanny done the right thing and pulled him against Seattle.  And of course he threw him under the bus, his Tweets as he was recovering were pretty clear. 

 

Some players may suggest plays not be run, he didn't do that.  He demanded they not be run, we have heard this from multiple sources.  This is not Aaron Rodgers, this is a 22 year old rookie.   He has also alienated himself with his teammates.  If you don't think that is important you may want to look up Jeff George. 

 

So yeah I put the majority of this on the player and again the owner for allowing it to take place and in some cases encouraging it IMO.  This was apparent when he was using Snyder language in the meeting.  So again this was not a coach trying to reign in a diva, he was battle the player, the owner, and his dad too. 

 

As for the final 3 games of a lost season who cares?  Griff was clearly hurt, Shanny caught a bunch of crap for starting him in the opener remember?  So now he sits an obviously ineffective and still hurt QB to protect him and he get's crap for that too?  I'm telling you he is in a no-win position with a lot of you.  If Griff can't handle being benched at the end of the year that's on him, not the coach. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

I'm not going to crush Griffin for asking that certain plays not be called. I don't have a problem with it.

I don't think this request came from the Robert's belief that he was too good to run or was a great pocket passer already as many think. I think the request came from fear over his injury and a sudden realization of his own mortality after 2 historically dominant seasons in college and the NFL. If you remember the story of after he awoke from his acl surgery, how he cried with his parents and promised his mother she wouldn't see him like this again. Suddenly, 2 acl tears left a cloud of uncertainty over his health and career.

I think that's important in understanding where this originated and why. Sure it's easy to spin it into the arrogant and entitled diva running the show but I don't think that's the case, though perhaps it did play a part. He could have flexed his star power and leverage to help assuage his fears over his injury and the play calling, sure that makes sense .

My opinion is that he shouldn't have had to ask to begin with honestly. He asked at the end of 2012 when he was hurt and was ignored and asked again in the offseason while recovering from surgery and regaining the ability to run.

The coach should cater an offense around an injured player, especially a QB. Look at how the Packers playcalling changed when Rodgers hurt his calf. Suddenly he was confined to the pocket and wasnt asked to rollout, bootleg etc. Both he and the offense may have been less effective or dangerous, but he was protected. Would it shock or change anyone's opinion of him if it was revealed that Rodgers had asked Sherman not to call rollouts or anything that put unnecessary strain on his calf?

Now granted, it's obviously significantly easier to modify a gameplan or playcalling when your QB is Rodgers who can do pretty much anything, but the point remains. There is a larger issue at play if we are unable to find effective plays that your young injured QB is capable of running. And if you cant get on the same page, you should turn to your other QBs who are healthy and able to play confidently until you have drawn up a better game plan or alleviated any fears or concerns Griffin had.

I would expect this of any head coach dealing with an injured QB. Why wouldn't it be expected to alter playcalling? It seems one of the biggest failures in the shanahan/Griffin tenure was basic and simple communication and both parties are at fault in that regard, which is extremely disappointing.

[Darrell Green Fan]

Aaron Rodgers is a stud in the pocket.  RG III somehow thinks he is but we all know he is just the opposite, he is perhaps the worst we have ever seen.  It has been proven that the only way this team can win is to have at least the threat of the RO in the playbook.   And again he didn't suggest, he didn't ask, he demanded. You may think that is entirely appropriate for a 22 year old to do to a vet coach, especially when the results on the field don't support the position, but I do not.  And he got all bent out of shape when Kirk didn't run the RO against Cleveland.  WTF?  Kirk isn't a RO guy, he is a pocket guy. So the coaches called plays that best fit his talent, just as they did with Griff. It's kind of what good coaching is all about.   Why Griff would get upset at that again tells me what we are dealing with here. 

[gtn130]

To your first point, I was high on shanny for about 3.5 years, defending just about everything he did. Still do, in many cases.

But many didn't like him early on, starting with the Haynesworth stuff. How anyone could have defended Al, I have no idea.

As far as the other stuff, I think a lot of us see Vinny and Dan as more responsible for the state of the team when Gibbs left, rather than Gibbs.

Obviously they've both been deservedly ripped for their role in the mess that is our team.

 

Uh, any particular reason why? Didn't Snyder say he was completely hands off with Gibbs, just as he was with Shanahan? I guess you don't believe him when it comes to Gibbs, but you do with Shanahan lol.

[Burgold]

Uh, any particular reason why? Didn't Snyder say he was completely hands off with Gibbs, just as he was with Shanahan? I guess you don't believe him when it comes to Gibbs, but you do with Shanahan lol.

Even if Dan was... Vinny wasn't.

Aaron Rodgers is a stud in the pocket.  RG III somehow thinks he is but we all know he is just the opposite, he is perhaps the worst we have ever seen.  It has been proven that the only way this team can win is to have at least the threat of the RO in the playbook.  

These are the kind of definitive statements that ought to be proven.

 

What measure are you using to show that RGIII is perhaps the worst pocket passer we have ever seen? Is it the nearly 70% completion rate he managed this year? Is that career QB rating in the 80's?I got it! It's because he throws such an uncatchable ball that the Redskins led the NFL in yards after catch.  No, that can't be it.

 

 Come on, give me something.  If you say he hasn't lived up to expectations or isn't a proven QB yet I can be with you, but the worst ever?

 

Preposterous.

[gtn130]

Even if Dan was... Vinny wasn't.

 

 

So? It's not as if Vinny had the ability to usurp Gibbs at will. If Gibbs thought the Skins were going to make a horrible trade/acquisition/draft choice, he had every opportunity to speak up. 

 

Shanahan had Bruce Allen who was techinically the GM -- was he meddling with everything Shanahan was trying to do as well?

 

My only point is that people assign way too much blame to Shanahan and then give Gibbs and others a free pass. It's ridiculous. RG3, Snyder, Allen, Shanahan -- they're all to blame to varying degrees, yet a large faction of fans 100% blame Shanahan. 

[Burgold]

, yet a large faction of fans 100% blame Shanahan. 

 That's because Shanahan demanded 100% of the control.

 

You don't want the lionshare of the blame don't ask (and get) complete control.

[gtn130]

 That's because Shanahan demanded 100% of the control.

 

You don't want the lionshare of the blame don't ask (and get) complete control.

 

But here's the thing:

 

1) He really didn't have complete control

 

2) Gibbs had quasi complete control as well. It just wasn't a huge media scene

[grego]

Uh, any particular reason why? Didn't Snyder say he was completely hands off with Gibbs, just as he was with Shanahan? I guess you don't believe him when it comes to Gibbs, but you do with Shanahan lol.

I don't believe Dan was making decisions about who to draft or what FAs to sign under Joe or Mike. But that doesn't mean others don't see it that way.

Vinny was essentially our GM before Joe came back and for 2 years after he left. He's been pretty open (to a fault) about his decisions.

So even though Joe has talked about how he wanted some players who turned out to be busts, I think most blame Danny and vinny more than Joe for those decisions.

[gtn130]

I mean seriously, lol at people who choose to believe Shanahan had 100% complete control. Just read this article about the Gibbs era:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/post/dan-snyder-joe-gibbs-and-being-hands-off/2011/06/03/AGi1ryHH_blog.html

 

Above is a perfect example illustrating how the perception was created that Snyder was completely hands off, when in actuality it was the opposite. There is an historical precedent that exists wherein Snyder effectively lies to the media and then continues to MEDDLE in football operations behind the scenes. This isn't debatable. Yet as it pertains to Shanahan, everyone chooses to believe that now, suddenly, Snyder is Honest Abe and actually stopped playing GM behind the scenes. Seriously, lol at that. 

I don't believe Dan was making decisions about who to draft or what FAs to sign under Joe or Mike. But that doesn't mean others don't see it that way.

Vinny was essentially our GM before Joe came back and for 2 years after he left. He's been pretty open (to a fault) about his decisions.

So even though Joe has talked about how he wanted some players who turned out to be busts, I think most blame Danny and vinny more than Joe for those decisions.

 

You're just flat out wrong.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/post/dan-snyder-joe-gibbs-and-being-hands-off/2011/06/03/AGi1ryHH_blog.html

[Peregrine]

Aaron Rodgers is a stud in the pocket.  RG III somehow thinks he is but we all know he is just the opposite, he is perhaps the worst we have ever seen.  

He is perhaps the "worst we have ever seen"?  Really, thats very interesting.  Did you know his career QB rating is 90.6, and last year it was 87?  Did you know his career completion percentage is 64%, and he averages 7.6 yards per pass.  Did you know he has thrown 40 TDs and 23 INTs?

 

So, hes worse than Rex Groassman?  Him of the illustrious 16 TD, 20 INT, 72 QB rating, 57% completion year of 2011?  Hes worse than John Beck, the man of hthe career 67% QB rating?  How about Donavon McNabb, and his great 2010 season, where he managed to throw 14 TDs, and 15 INTs for a QB rating of 77.  Do you remember a man called Jason Campbell?  Who in 4 years never managed to have a season that was as good as last years for Griffin?  It seems you have forgotten how bad he was.  Perhaps you are remembering the man, the myth, Todd Collins, and his 2 good games, while managing his career 71 QB rating.  Remember Mark Brunell?  How about Patrick Ramsey?

 

No, you have to go back to 1999, 15 years before you get to a QB who had a better season than RG3 did last year.  Thats not to say it wasn't bad, because it was.  But its a bit ridiculous to say hes the worst we have seen, wouldnt you say?

[Darrell Green Fan]

He is perhaps the "worst we have ever seen"?  Really, thats very interesting.  Did you know his career QB rating is 90.6, and last year it was 87?  Did you know his career completion percentage is 64%, and he averages 7.6 yards per pass.  Did you know he has thrown 40 TDs and 23 INTs?

 

So, hes worse than Rex Groassman?  Him of the illustrious 16 TD, 20 INT, 72 QB rating, 57% completion year of 2011?  Hes worse than John Beck, the man of hthe career 67% QB rating?  How about Donavon McNabb, and his great 2010 season, where he managed to throw 14 TDs, and 15 INTs for a QB rating of 77.  Do you remember a man called Jason Campbell?  Who in 4 years never managed to have a season that was as good as last years for Griffin?  It seems you have forgotten how bad he was.  Perhaps you are remembering the man, the myth, Todd Collins, and his 2 good games, while managing his career 71 QB rating.  Remember Mark Brunell?  How about Patrick Ramsey?

 

No, you have to go back to 1999, 15 years before you get to a QB who had a better season than RG3 did last year.  Thats not to say it wasn't bad, because it was.  But its a bit ridiculous to say hes the worst we have seen, wouldnt you say?

 

 

So now this discussion has been reduced to me defending the position that Griffin is a horrible pocket passer?  You guys are too much. Trotting out career stats, when many were built on read option plays, is just a dumb argument, sorry.

 

From the pocket, without the read option, yes he may be the worst pocket passer I have ever seen.  And it was crushing to see, again I was the biggest Griffin support on another board all year.  Not sure what games you were watching last year but I saw picture after picture of Griffin holding the ball with wide open receivers.  We have seen his lack of pocket presence, again one of the worst ever. I am not spending time researching the obvious, he took way more sacks than the other 2 QBs.  This is well documented. 

 

And of course we have the words of the head coach.  In a scathing review unlike any I have ever heard he gave a pretty specific breakdown of what the problems are.  Don't take my word for it, hear it from the head coach himself. 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Robert is definitely worse in the pocket than Rex Grossman. I think Beck was worse. He couldn't play at all. We should have started him every game that year.

[TheLongshot]

I mean seriously, lol at people who choose to believe Shanahan had 100% complete control. Just read this article about the Gibbs era:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/post/dan-snyder-joe-gibbs-and-being-hands-off/2011/06/03/AGi1ryHH_blog.html

 

Above is a perfect example illustrating how the perception was created that Snyder was completely hands off, when in actuality it was the opposite. There is an historical precedent that exists wherein Snyder effectively lies to the media and then continues to MEDDLE in football operations behind the scenes. This isn't debatable. Yet as it pertains to Shanahan, everyone chooses to believe that now, suddenly, Snyder is Honest Abe and actually stopped playing GM behind the scenes. Seriously, lol at that. 

 

You're just flat out wrong.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/post/dan-snyder-joe-gibbs-and-being-hands-off/2011/06/03/AGi1ryHH_blog.html

 

There is a difference between Snyder being involved, and Snyder making the decisions on who to sign.  It was well known that Snyder met with Gibbs on a regular basis, and a lot of decisions were made as a group with Snyder in the room, but Gibbs had final call on all players, and Snyder deferred to him on all decisions.

 

I don't at all believe it was much different with Shanahan, other than Snyder and Shanahan didn't have nearly as close of a relationship.  Snyder will give any coach with full control enough rope to hang himself with.

[Darrell Green Fan]

I can't believe I have been reduced to proving that Griffin is a horrible pocket passer, this is common knowledge guys, but here is a shot of not 1, not 2 but 5 open receivers .  So what does he do?  He does not throw the ball for reasons nobody can understand and takes a sack.  If I had the desire I could find more "proof" but frankly it's an idiotic argument.  I'll take the words of the coach over message board posters. 

 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

One man's involvement is another man's meddling. Dan needs to stay far, far away. He's is like the anti-Midas. Everything he touches turns to fecal matter.