Yahoo: Report: Patriots being investigated for using deflated footballs in AFC championship game

[Mr. Sinister]

Dunno. Seemed believable to me. So did Bellichick. Still having a hard time caring about this, since theres no real smoking gun in terms of evidence, but a lot of he said/she said/"my word against his".

Guess whatever the law, err, NFL decides, will hage to be good enough

[GoSkins0721]

Dunno. Seemed believable to me. So did Bellichick. Still having a hard time caring about this, since theres no real smoking gun in terms of evidence, but a lot of he said/she said/"my word against his".

Guess whatever the law, err, NFL decides, will hage to be good enough

 

Yeah, it's like Bettis said "It's really not that big of deal. The NFL doesn't think it's that big of deal that's why it's only a $25k fine if a team is caught doing it."

 

What he & Brunell are pissed at is that Brady didn't have the balls to admit he asked for it to be done. They were looking for the mea culpa to end the whole mess. By their accounts, Brady made it worse. Much worse. 

[Destino]

I need more info. Where the under inflated balls uniformly so? If they were especially prepared in a shady way for the benefit of the QB they would be right?

I also need a reason to care about this because currently I do not and I'm a well practiced Brady and Patriot hater.

[megared]

I mean, I'm assuming they did it the same way they've done it for other games and measured inside.  That's what Graham Gano said they would consistently do.  It's an assumption that they followed that same procedure Sunday, yes, but one that is backed by some history apparently.

 

So the assumption is that the officials measured the balls outside at halftime, but inside at the beginning of the game?  This is bordering on absurd. 

 

 

Teacher's Quote

• Let's assume an average ball has a gauge pressure of 13 psi. This makes the absolute pressure of the ball 27.7 psi (gauge + atmosphere). Since these are initial values, we will call them P1 and T1.

• The game time temperature was 49 degrees F (278 K). We are attempting to solve for the new pressure at this temperature, P2. We plug everything into the equation and get (27.7/294.1) = (P2/278). At the game time temperature, the balls would have an absolute pressure of 26.2 psi and a gauge pressure of 11.5, below league specifications.

 

I've really got to question that person if they couldn't be bothered to even get the unit conversions right.  49 degrees Fahrenheit = 282.594 degrees Kelvin.  70 degrees Fahrenheit = 294.261.  Now using the same formula:

 

A ball with 12.5 PSI measured in a 70 degree environment has an equivalent 11.4 PSI in 49 degree weather.

A ball with 13 PSI measured in a 70 degree environment has an equivalent 11.9 PSI in 49 degree weather.

 

 

Dr. Michael Lisa, Professor of Physics, at The Ohio State University:

"There were apparently balls found at 10.5 PSI gauge pressure rather than the regulation 13 PSI gauge pressure. This corresponds to an 11 percent difference in the absolute pressure in the ball. (Absolute pressure includes both the gauge pressure and atmospheric pressure.) That 11 percent change in pressure is what you'd get with a 11 percent reduction in temperature. Taking care of all the conversions to Kelvin, etc, that would be going from 70 F to 12 F. So, that could happen on a real cold day."

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24982438/did-weather-play-a-role-in-patriots-colts-deflategate

[HogsOfWar]

Trying to think of the different scenarios here:

 

1. Tom Brady or an equipment manager deflated the balls on the sideline after certification by the refs

2. The equipment manager never properly inflated the balls up to spec. Brady likes a less inflated ball and was perfectly happy to pick a bunch of these out. But the refs never measured the pressure when they received them.

3. The balls were up to spec, but given the temperature drop in the post above, they dropped to 10.5.

 

 

I think any of the three scenarios are plausible.

[TexasSkinsFan]

He's a horrible liar. Horrible. 

 

Edit: Brunell just basically called him a liar. He's passionately pissed off at Brady. Says there is no way Brady didn't know what was going on. "A tough one to swallow." I've never seen Brunell so pissed. He's actually furious. And now Bettis is piling on, too. "I'm disappointed in you, Tom Brady."

 

Wow!  

 

Agree with you, kills me that no one bothered to ask him one very important question....

 

Did you tell anyone to deflate the football if you didn't do it yourself?

 

You would think that would have been asked but it wasn't.

 

Still think that this was done, it was done for Brady, he knew about it (How can anyone hear him say he doesn't know if a ball is deflated and then state he likes them at a specific PSI level and not think he was coached up for this), and that Goodell is once again letting them off the hook when they cheated?

 

How can the NFL not ask Brady any questions about this yet? 

 

How can Belichick throw Brady under the bus like he did and anyone not think Brady did this?

 

How can anyone believe that neither Tom or Bill knew about this until Monday?

 

All signs point to everyone lying and once again the NFL covering it up yet we get a huge penalty for spending money in an uncapped year by this commissioner. I am so done with Goodell

Trying to think of the different scenarios here:

 

1. Tom Brady or an equipment manager deflated the balls on the sideline after certification by the refs

2. The equipment manager never properly inflated the balls up to spec. Brady likes a less inflated ball and was perfectly happy to pick a bunch of these out. But the refs never measured the pressure when they received them.

3. The balls were up to spec, but given the temperature drop in the post above, they dropped to 10.5.

 

 

I think any of the three scenarios are plausible.

 

The problem with #3 is that the Colts balls measured correctly, if it was a temperature thing that is not possible

[Rufus T Firefly]

The NFL apparently can't get any answers on the who, why and how of this. Cant help but wondering if the Patriots organization is just so good at cheating that they have everyone, down to ballboys, trained on keeping their lips sealed.

[DogofWar1]

So the assumption is that the officials measured the balls outside at halftime, but inside at the beginning of the game?  This is bordering on absurd. 

 

I've really got to question that person if they couldn't be bothered to even get the unit conversions right.  49 degrees Fahrenheit = 282.594 degrees Kelvin.  70 degrees Fahrenheit = 294.261.  Now using the same formula:

 

A ball with 12.5 PSI measured in a 70 degree environment has an equivalent 11.4 PSI in 49 degree weather.

A ball with 13 PSI measured in a 70 degree environment has an equivalent 11.9 PSI in 49 degree weather.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24982438/did-weather-play-a-role-in-patriots-colts-deflategate

 

As far as we can tell, based upon the statements of Graham Gano, the standard procedure prior to the game is to inflate the balls indoors.  Unless you have something to counter Graham's statements, the weight of the evidence falls towards initial inflation of the balls indoors.  You seem to be assuming they did something against usual procedure by inflating them outside.

 

In addition, as far as we can tell, it is NOT standard procedure to test ball pressure at half time.  In this situation, as I have said, we cannot conclude the exact circumstances of the measuring, but it is not outside the realm of possibility, and may even be probable, that they checked the balls outside or very shortly after bringing them indoors, such that the internal psi is reflective of the outdoor conditions.

 

Now, as for the equations;

 

Brady basically went on the record today saying he likes balls inflated to 12.5 psi, which is the minimum allowable by the league.

 

The CBS sports article, which does have some good information, does also need some tweaking if we start from the 12.5 psi number.  First, they started from 13.5 psi early on, then the physicist talked about 13 psi.

 

However, avoiding delving deeply into that (the math inside the article is internally inconsistent, at the top it says .2 psi drop per 10 degrees, then the physicist says 58 degree drop would lead to 2.5 psi drop, which is well over .2 psi per 10 degrees, closer to .4 psi actually), I'll assume your math is correct however, and we can continue from the 12.5 ----> 11.4 psi numbers.  Furthermore, it appears that the rain and the water pressure might have played a small role.  Enough to lower it below 11 psi?  Likely not.  But it might have had a small effect, maybe pushing it toward 11.3 or 11.2 psi, depending on the circumstances.

 

This is where the accuracy of sources must be questioned and determined.  How accurate they are is crucial, and frankly, it's just better to wait and see what the actual measurements are.

 

Furthermore, there is seemingly this strange inconsistency I've noticed on the reporting here.  Initially "sources" said they were 2 pounds under inflated.  However, news sources seem to be inconsistent on where to start that 2 pounds mark.  2 pounds from 13?  2 pounds from 13.5?  2 pounds from 12.5?

 

The CBS article, while it does some good things, hits this pitfall.  It initially mentions a drop from 13.5 psi to 10.5 psi, a 3 psi drop.  The physicist discusses a 2.5 psi drop from 13 to 10.5 psi.

 

It's also possible the sources fell into this pitfall, or were just flat wrong (remember the whole Joe Barry/Vic Fangio episode?  "Sources" being taken as gospel and then being wrong was something of a theme this past week).  If a source reported to a reporter "Average of 2 psi under usual 13.5 psi," and that reporter reported it as "average of 2 psi under usual," well, we've got a problem.  11.5 falls within the bounds of potential environmental change.  10.5 doesn't.

_________________________________

 

 

Is it likely something foul happened here?  Probably.

 

Do we know for sure YET?  No.

 

Let's avoid crucifying everyone on the Pats until the official report actually tells us the circumstances of the measuring as well as the actual measurements.  If they fall at 11 psi or below, it was definitely foul play.  If they are above 11 psi, and especially if the vast majority of the balls are at or above 11.5 psi, then it becomes harder to determine with certainty foul play without knowing the circumstances of the measuring.

[Hooper]

I hate Patriot fans, so the whole thing kinda makes me laugh...

 

... but I also don't really get it. I mean, it would be one thing if Luck was using the same football Brady tampered with but he wasn't.

 

Not even sure why it's a rule. Let the QB of one team do whatever he wants to the football his team uses and the QB of the other do the same for the ball his team uses. 

 

The coverage of this is embarrassing.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Trying to think of the different scenarios here:

 

1. Tom Brady or an equipment manager deflated the balls on the sideline after certification by the refs

2. The equipment manager never properly inflated the balls up to spec. Brady likes a less inflated ball and was perfectly happy to pick a bunch of these out. But the refs never measured the pressure when they received them.

3. The balls were up to spec, but given the temperature drop in the post above, they dropped to 10.5.

 

 

I think any of the three scenarios are plausible.

If all the reports out there are accurate, then the balls were properly inspected before the game and the Colts balls were fine when the Pats' were found to have been under inflated. 

 

So, if the reports are right, then there's no chance either #2 or #3 happened.

[DogofWar1]

Not even sure why it's a rule. Let the QB of one team do whatever he wants to the football his team uses and the QB of the other do the same for the ball his team uses. 

 

Eh, lots of laws in the real world don't make much sense.  Doesn't mean breaking them won't get a SWAT team busting down your door at dinner time.  Laws and rules are, sometimes unfortunately, laws and rules, and while we can change them afterwards, we should enforce them while they are in effect unless they violate something larger than themselves (like the Constitution).

 

That being said, we might see a loosening of the rules in the wake of this.

 

After all, how could QBs being able to throw the ball 10 yards farther be bad for ratings?  More big plays!?  Better QB numbers?  Sounds like an NFL-Broadcasting deal wet dream.

[Rufus T Firefly]

I hate Patriot fans, so the whole thing kinda makes me laugh...

 

... but I also don't really get it. I mean, it would be one thing if Luck was using the same football Brady tampered with but he wasn't.

 

Not even sure why it's a rule. Let the QB of one team do whatever he wants to the football his team uses and the QB of the other do the same for the ball his team uses. 

 

The coverage of this is embarrassing.

So, you literally don't think the league should be regulating the balls that are used in NFL games? I can't believe that's going to be part of this conversation.

[GoSkins0721]

As far as we can tell, based upon the statements of Graham Gano, the standard procedure prior to the game is to inflate the balls indoors.  Unless you have something to counter Graham's statements, the weight of the evidence falls towards initial inflation of the balls indoors.  You seem to be assuming they did something against usual procedure by inflating them outside.

 

In addition, as far as we can tell, it is NOT standard procedure to test ball pressure at half time.  In this situation, as I have said, we cannot conclude the exact circumstances of the measuring, but it is not outside the realm of possibility, and may even be probable, that they checked the balls outside or very shortly after bringing them indoors, such that the internal psi is reflective of the outdoor conditions.

 

Now, as for the equations;

 

Brady basically went on the record today saying he likes balls inflated to 12.5 psi, which is the minimum allowable by the league.

 

The CBS sports article, which does have some good information, does also need some tweaking if we start from the 12.5 psi number.  First, they started from 13.5 psi early on, then the physicist talked about 13 psi.

 

However, avoiding delving deeply into that (the math inside the article is internally inconsistent, at the top it says .2 psi drop per 10 degrees, then the physicist says 58 degree drop would lead to 2.5 psi drop, which is well over .2 psi per 10 degrees, closer to .4 psi actually), I'll assume your math is correct however, and we can continue from the 12.5 ----> 11.4 psi numbers.  Furthermore, it appears that the rain and the water pressure might have played a small role.  Enough to lower it below 11 psi?  Likely not.  But it might have had a small effect, maybe pushing it toward 11.3 or 11.2 psi, depending on the circumstances.

 

This is where the accuracy of sources must be questioned and determined.  How accurate they are is crucial, and frankly, it's just better to wait and see what the actual measurements are.

 

Furthermore, there is seemingly this strange inconsistency I've noticed on the reporting here.  Initially "sources" said they were 2 pounds under inflated.  However, news sources seem to be inconsistent on where to start that 2 pounds mark.  2 pounds from 13?  2 pounds from 13.5?  2 pounds from 12.5?

 

The CBS article, while it does some good things, hits this pitfall.  It initially mentions a drop from 13.5 psi to 10.5 psi, a 3 psi drop.  The physicist discusses a 2.5 psi drop from 13 to 10.5 psi.

 

It's also possible the sources fell into this pitfall, or were just flat wrong (remember the whole Joe Barry/Vic Fangio episode?  "Sources" being taken as gospel and then being wrong was something of a theme this past week).  If a source reported to a reporter "Average of 2 psi under usual 13.5 psi," and that reporter reported it as "average of 2 psi under usual," well, we've got a problem.  11.5 falls within the bounds of potential environmental change.  10.5 doesn't.

_________________________________

 

 

Is it likely something foul happened here?  Probably.

 

Do we know for sure YET?  No.

 

Let's avoid crucifying everyone on the Pats until the official report actually tells us the circumstances of the measuring as well as the actual measurements.  If they fall at 11 psi or below, it was definitely foul play.  If they are above 11 psi, and especially if the vast majority of the balls are at or above 11.5 psi, then it becomes harder to determine with certainty foul play without knowing the circumstances of the measuring.

 

It's one thing for us armchair QBs to give our opinion on this, pro or con. What I find really, really telling is the outcry from former players (who never played for NE) on this. If you haven't seen the video of Brunell & Bettis right after the Brady presser, you should see it. If Brady was in the room with Brunell, I'm convinced Brunell would have beat the **** out of him. He was that mad.  

 

It wasn't that big of a deal - say you did it, take your $25k fine & move on. But sack up, at least sack up and face the music. Brady failed. Seriously failed in the court of retired NFL players. 

 

I swear, if Brady was an ugly dude the press would have skewered him today. Every tough question, he smiled, changed the tone of his voice & turned on his charm. He should go into acting after he retires. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

It's one thing for us armchair QBs to give our opinion on this, pro or con. What I find really, really telling is the outcry from former players (who never played for NE) on this. If you haven't seen the video of Brunell & Bettis right after the Brady presser, you should see it. If Brady was in the room with Brunell, I'm convinced Brunell would have beat the **** out of him. He was that mad.  

 

It wasn't that big of a deal - say you did it, take your $25k fine & move on. But sack up, at least sack up and face the music. Brady failed. Seriously failed in the court of retired NFL players. 

 

I swear, if Brady was an ugly dude the press would have skewered him today. Every tough question, he smiled, changed the tone of his voice & turned on his charm. He should go into acting after he retires. 

Yeah, I was actually kind of dreading the NFL 'expert' reaction we were going to get from this. After Spygate and Bountygate there was a rush of them yelling "no big deal, no big deal'. The reasons are obvious- these are ex-NFL players and coaches and they 1)  have friends who were and are Patriots and 2) they make money talking NFL, which means the league doing well is in their best interest. All of which is to say these people have a bested interest in making these scandals go away. And I figured we would get a lot of talk designed to steer this thing that way.

 

I have actually been fairly surprised. The first morning, Danny Kanell came out to basically call anyone stupid who didn't understand how big a diff the air pressure makes. Shannon Sharpe essentially said to shut up about how much they beat the Colts by- if you're trying to cheat, that's all that matters. Ron Jaworski talked of this in terms of the Patriots putting themselves above the game and disrespecting it.

Then today I hear Brian Billick being offended by the "everyone does it" talk and that he's ticked to be put in the same boat as this. We all saw what Aikman and Madden said, and many others. And then the way the 3 guys on ESPN reacted (of course, the NFL Network has two ex-Patriots as their 'experts').

 

It seems the NFL fraternity is taking this pretty seriously. Which, given how I expected them to react, feels like a big deal to me.

[Redskin4ever]

The comments by Aikman are ludicrious. They are two completely separate issues. Bounty-gate was all about injuring players. I thought it too was overblown, but when you have a bunch of former players suing the league about the NFL not protecting them from injury, and you find a team that is paying players for intentional injury, you must take "serious" action to make the lawsuit settlement less damaging.

 

If former players start complaining about getting carpel tunnel syndrome from using under inflated balls, then maybe we can compare this to bounty-gate.

[pjfootballer]

A lot of "gates".

First Spygate

Then Bountygate

Then Deflategate

And the Swinging gate.

[GoSkins0721]

The comments by Aikman are ludicrious. They are two completely separate issues. Bounty-gate was all about injuring players. I thought it too was overblown, but when you have a bunch of former players suing the league about the NFL not protecting them from injury, and you find a team that is paying players for intentional injury, you must take "serious" action to make the lawsuit settlement less damaging.

 

If former players start complaining about getting carpel tunnel syndrome from using under inflated balls, then maybe we can compare this to bounty-gate.

 

Well, I agree they are 2 separate issues because of the injuries. 

 

Bettis I get why he would be "disappointed" in Brady (PIT being an obvious rival). Brunell? No reason for him to react that way. I mean, he played for JAX & WAS, certainly not NE rivals. The same can be said for Aikman. That's why I find their reactions,well, interesting.

 

I think it comes back to integrity of the game. Brady said it was important, but smirked every time he did.

 

Here's my notes from his presser. I didn't post them earlier and I have not altered them since I took them:

 

"I didn't alter the balls in any way." 

 

"There wasn't a thought the balls in the 2nd half were different from the balls in the 1st half." This after being asked did he notice a difference between the balls used in each half (the deflated balls were removed at half time).

 

"As far as I know, I don't know what happened with the footballs." 

 

"I like them at 12.5." 

 

"Others have more information than me. Yeah, I have questions, too." ... on how this could have occurred. 

 

"I have no idea if I have played with under inflated balls before." 

 

Smirk turned to that "how dare you ask me that" look - he was pressed on what he was told about the delay to start the 2nd half because the balls were being replaced. He said no idea what was going on & didn't know the balls were replaced.

 

Says NFL hasn't contacted him or spoken with him. 

 

"Doesn't think about the football once the game starts...I didn't feel or notice any difference."  Trying to smile it off. 

 

"I have no idea who handles the balls after the refs give them back." after the verify them. 

 

They're throwing softball questions at him. Must be a lot of NE writers in the group.

 

"Integrity of the game is important." Holding back a smirk when asked if this is being overblown. 

 

The dude is a horrible liar. Horrible. 

 

Whoever said the ball boy/equipment manager is going to take the fall for this really nailed it - OR - the NFL is going to find no impropriety. 

[Fergasun]

Suspend Brady for first quarter of Super Bowl and take away a draft pick.

[codeorama]

Brady is a liar. I coach HS baseball and I can easily tell the difference between a 4, 5 or 6 oz baseball. He's a professional QB. Throwing the football is his job. There is zero chance he didn't notice a difference in the balls.

I'm kind of tired of people blowing it off because the score of the game wasn't close. What if it was? How many games during the season did he do it? It's just like corked bats in baseball. You get caught, you're a cheater.

[BleedBNG]

Suspend Brady for first quarter of Super Bowl...

 

They'll still win. No, the only thing that bums me about Deflategate is that it made the game boring... unless you were rooting for the Pats.

[Fergasun]

If they don't suspend Brady at least a quarter, the rules are a joke. Better to announce now so Vegas can adjust.

What matters is that they were caught breaking the rules and who knows how long this has transpired.

If no suspension than it warrants at least 2 first round draft picks as a penalty... if he is suspended for the first quarter, take away their first round pick.

It doesnt matter if Brady knew... there must be organizational punishment of significance.

[SkinsFTW]

Just like when spygate happened I thought that if they caught them on this, and we know they use "tactics" with their db's basically cheating since the refs refuse to call it, and then Brady whines and magically gets bs calls, you know they have 100 other ways of cheating that we'll never find out about.

 

Here is just one of them.

 

Then the BS vs the Ravens with the 4OLmen which is pretty much shady even if its supposedly legal.

 

The Pats are ran by a cheater coach, even Don Shula called him Bellicheat lol.

 

I believe him that he didn't know that the balls were deflated but Brady knows what the name of the game is there, do whatever you need to do to get an advantage, no matter how slight, they add up.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't have a guy record practices around the league, handsigns, etc. Its just nobody is going to catch them unless the guy slips up.

[Destino]

Don't the rules for this call for a fine?  Why are people calling for Brady to be suspended and the people getting banned for a year and draft picks and all this stuff?  If the rules say it's a fine, then issue the fine and move on.  If there is evidence that Brady did this, not just noticed mind you but actually played a role in the balls being deflated, then figure out what the rules say the punishment is.  If it's just a fine, fine him, if it's more do more.  But I'd want actual evidence not "oh well he had to have noticed" which is laughable as a justification for a suspension. 

[Mr. Sinister]

Don't the rules for this call for a fine? Why are people calling for Brady to be suspended and the people getting banned for a year and draft picks and all this stuff? If the rules say it's a fine, then issue the fine and move on. If there is evidence that Brady did this, not just noticed mind you but actually played a role in the balls being deflated, then figure out what the rules say the punishment is. If it's just a fine, fine him, if it's more do more. But I'd want actual evidence not "oh well he had to have noticed" which is laughable as a justification for a suspension.

Agreed

[Rufus T Firefly]

All I learned from the PCs today (apart from that Brady is a laughably bad liar) is that they know the ball boy, or equipment manager or whoever carried out the act, isn't going to talk. If they thought there was a chance the truth was going to be revealed then there's no way Brady's out there denying and joking about this today. It would absolutely destroy him when it gets out.