jpyaks3 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Murder: Quran 2:191, Qur'an 4:89, Qur'an 4:91, Qur'an 5:33, Qur'an 8:12, Qur'an 8:17, Qu'ran 33:61, Qu'ran 47:4 Other religions: Qur'an 5:51, Qur'an 9:30, Qur'an 5:14 Jesus Christ is not dead: Qu'ran 4:157 Women: Qur'an 4:34 looting: Qur'an 8:1 Death penalty for those who leave Islam: "But no doubt I would have killed since the Prophet said. If someone (a Mohammedan) deviates from his religion, kill him" Story of Ikrima, Bukhari LII 260 Tolerance « Assalamu Alaikum » peace be upon you Qu'ran 49:6 Qu'ran 49:13 The variety and human diversity are considered part of the blessing and mercy of God. People are encouraged to go beyond the mere coexistence and to actively seek to hear each other and build mutual supportive relationships. Qu'ran 2:285 The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what the Lord revealed to him, like all men of faith do. Each of them believes in God, His Books, and His Messengers. "We're not making a distinction (they say) between one or another of His Messengers, and they add:' We hear and we obey; we beg Your pardon, Lord, and we return to you all. » Qu'ran 5:82 In the Qur'an, Allah commands Muslims (and in fact all believers) to believe in Jesus, Moses and other biblical prophets, as all were sent by his grace to humanity. Qu'ran is quite contradictory, therefore can be used by fundamentalists to raise hell upon us. I hope the highest muslim authorities will someday rewrite these verses calling for murders, looting, disrespect. That would help pulling the rug from under those fundamentalists' feet. You fundamentally misunderstand the Islamic structure (on the Sunni side, Shi'ite side is very different), there isn't some ultimate highest authority that can rewrite anything. There isn't a Pope or translations don't allow room for changes or judgement calls (like in the Christian bible) so as to the actual Quran changing that isn't happening. The Quran is the word of God and therefore pretty much unaterable for any Muslim. What will (and has) changed is the interpretation of those words. That is how so many sects of Sunni side and why Sufis and Salafis act and believe such different things. Second, you removed all context from your examples, and context is incredibly important when reading the Quran (or any book like the Quran) and removing that context (both the larger historic and the literal context) entirely changes the meaning and is one of the way that people can use the Quran to justify violence (just as one can use the Bible, Torah, anything really if you look hard enough). So lets look at some of those Surahs in context This is what is the Surah before the one you highlighted for killing Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors. Here is the one quoted And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. and here is the one after And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. the one after that Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors. So context is extremely important, instead of telling people to kill all non-believers, this Surah is talking about a very specific situation where you are being attacked and how you can respond. So even the literal context entirely changes the passage. I can get into the historical context which further enriches the Surah but I think that you get the point. The Quran is a very complex text and it has a lot of nuance that was built in through historical context and the way that Islam has developed, to reduce it to Islam says this or that is absurd because there is a ton of variation of interpretation about the scope, meaning, message and applicability of different parts of the Quran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 With respect to radical beliefs in Muslim countries, in most Middle East countries about 50% of the population thinks apostates should be killed (and in some countries it is higher). And then there is another percentage that thinks there should be a non-lethal punishment. That's more than a small minority. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/10/06/ben-affleck-and-bill-maher-are-both-wrong-about-islamic-fundamentalism/ http://es.redskins.com/topic/384218-affleck-vs-maher-on-islam/?p=10008914 If you consider killing somebody for leaving the religion a radical belief, about 50% of Middle Eastern Muslims are radical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 And now there is a separate, but related, incident involving murder and hostages in a kosher grocery store in France. Shameful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 http://forward.com/articles/212382/paris-kosher-supermarket-attacked-at-least--ho/ Paris Kosher Supermarket Attacked — At Least 5 Hostages HeldRead more: http://forward.com/articles/212382/paris-kosher-supermarket-attacked-at-least--ho/#ixzz3OKi06TiE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 You fundamentally misunderstand the Islamic structure (on the Sunni side, Shi'ite side is very different), there isn't some ultimate highest authority that can rewrite anything. There isn't a Pope or translations don't allow room for changes or judgement calls (like in the Christian bible) so as to the actual Quran changing that isn't happening. The Quran is the word of God and therefore pretty much unaterable for any Muslim. What will (and has) changed is the interpretation of those words. That is how so many sects of Sunni side and why Sufis and Salafis act and believe such different things. I know they don't have an ultimate autority to do it, I was pointing out, no matter the context, the contradictions and how easy it is for fundamentalists to use these verses to fuel their message for proselytizing. You seem to ignore that historians have shown that in the early days of Islam, the Koran has undergone several changes. Or rather "substractions" since passages aimed at notables were purely and simply deleted after the death of Muhammad. 5:116 : And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. If it had been dictated by God, he never would have passed to his prophet that heresy committed at the time by the Christian communities of Saudi Arabia Muhammad used to live with. He did not know the theology of the Holy Trinity much earlier defined at the Council of Nicaea. Islam therefore is a human creation, out of the mind of Muhammad and not a divine revelation. See all the contradictions above, and that's really too bad they'll never do anything about it because I believe it is through religious education that they have a chance to deal with the fundamentalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I know they don't have an ultimate autority to do it, I was pointing out, no matter the context, the contradictions and how easy it is for fundamentalists to use these verses to fuel their message for proselytizing. You seem to ignore that historians have shown that in the early days of Islam, the Koran has undergone several changes. Or rather "substractions" since passages aimed at notables were purely and simply deleted after the death of Muhammad. 5:116 : And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. If it had been dictated by God, he never would have passed to his prophet that heresy committed at the time by the Christian communities of Saudi Arabia Muhammad used to live with. He did not know the theology of the Holy Trinity much earlier defined at the Council of Nicaea. Islam therefore is a human creation, out of the mind of Muhammad and not a divine revelation. See all the contradictions above, and that's really too bad they'll never do anything about it because I believe it is through religious education that they have a chance to deal with the fundamentalists. I am having difficulty parsing your argument but are you arguing that since Muhammad didn't speak on the Holy Trinity that he couldn't have recieved divine revelation? Sorry if I am entirely misrepresenting your argument but I am having a real difficulty parsing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autoidiodyssey Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 The suspect in the supermarket hostage situation is believed to be the person who killed a policewoman and shot another person in the face yesterday. This suspect is also linked to the Charlie Hebdo killers. I'm surprised this sort of thing has not happened more in the West. It is so easy to pull off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHOPSkins Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 oh right. only conservatives are informed. I do prefer it when you call us "sheeple"—much more creative. Reflects our group think and timid nature much better.Id prefer you to read the links instead of pooh poohing. But it doesn't take much effort to **** and NOT read Hell, I even threw in something from the NY Slimes.....something a liberal could easily digest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 The police officer who was executed by the terrorists was Muslim http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/08/muslim-policeman-charlie-hebdo_n_6431492.html Muslim Policeman Killed In Charlie Hebdo Terrorist Attack WASHINGTON -- A Muslim police officer was among the victims of the terrorist attack carried out on the offices of satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo in Paris Wednesday. Ahmed Merabet, 42, has been identified as one of the 12 individuals killed in the attack. He was reportedly patrolling outside the building when the attack took place. According to The Associated Press, Merabet is the Muslim son of immigrants from North Africa. A police union official said he did not know whether Merabet actively practiced the faith. http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/01/Ahmed-Merabet-police-officer-killed-charlie-hebdo/384331/ #JeSuisAhmed: The Muslim Victim in the Paris MassacreWhy the death of Ahmed Merabet, one of the police officers who was killed in Wednesday'sCharlie Hebdo attack, is a vital part of the story in France. For a number of reasons, the death of Ahmed Merabet should provide a way to understand Wednesday's horrific shooting in Paris. Merabet, one of the two policemen shot and killed in Charlie Hebdo massacre, was a French Muslim man who died defending the laws that allow satirists to mock his religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHOPSkins Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 If you consider killing somebody for leaving the religion a radical belief, about 50% of Middle Eastern Muslims are radical.Part of the problem with "Radical" Muslims is the "Moderate" Muslims .....they talk but don't walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Part of the problem with "Radical" Muslims is the "Moderate" Muslims .....they talk but don't walk. Huh? I'd honestly like a definition of both a "radical" and a "moderate" Muslim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Bleed_B&G Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Arab newspapers around the world react to Charlie Hebdo attack more here: http://imgur.com/a/zd5rl/ "But... he called me a terrorist!" "This is how we avenge the cartoonists' killer" "Long live satire!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Id prefer you to read the links instead of pooh poohing. But it doesn't take much effort to **** and NOT read Hell, I even threw in something from the NY Slimes.....something a liberal could easily digest you always bring such an interesting, nuanced and refined approach to every subject you touch here. Its like the text version of a "summers eve" commercial, flowers and butterflies everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I am having difficulty parsing your argument but are you arguing that since Muhammad didn't speak on the Holy Trinity that he couldn't have recieved divine revelation? Sorry if I am entirely misrepresenting your argument but I am having a real difficulty parsing it. My understanding is that the Qur'an can not have been directly dictated word for word by God to Muhammad. In 5:116 Muhammad portrays God at Last Judgement and make him say: "O Jesus, son of Mary, Is it you who told people, take me and my mother for two gods outside of Allah? " God wouldn't have passed this heresy to his prophet, one unique God represented by three. The Prophet didn't know the nature of the christian religion, nor the Holy Trinity, so he couldn't have made God say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 More news on the hostage situations. http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/09/europe/charlie-hebdo-paris-shooting/index.html BBC updates http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-30722098 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Huh? I'd honestly like a definition of both a "radical" and a "moderate" Muslim. I'm certainly not one of those people who stands up and says, "Where the Muslims condemning this atrocity?" because: 1. I don't expect anyone else in any other racial, ethnic, or religious group to do that when members of the group misbehave, and 2. It does happen but without much publicity. I also don't like getting into the definitions of "radical" and "moderate" Muslims, because to most Westerners, I think the difference fundamentally comes down to killing people/not killing people. I do think that Western/Westernized Muslims need to hire a PR firm. I'm 100 percent serious. There have to be competing images in the media, and I think Western Muslims are the only ones who can really do that. Which means, you need to get on the ball. No pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megared Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Not interested in the religion dissection. Obviously these people didn't deserve to die...I do hope this really gives newspaper editors pause in broadly stereotyping, and subsequently offending large swaths of population. This isn't a freedom of speech argument, it's more freedom from consequences. Would you do something at your job that could possibly cost your family, coworkers, innocent bystanders their lives? Are stupid cartoons which serve only to inflame really worth that risk? They weren't iconic, symbolic, or emblematic...it seemed like they thrived off piquing the public's curiosity from being controversial. I hope they were being charged for the extra police protection they required, due to cartoons they chose to publish. I wish the French government would have stood up to them a few years back, when they had to shut down 20 embassies in response to something they chose to publish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Which means, you need to get on the ball. No pressure. Ha I think there are quite a few, better able Muslims to handle that (i.e my in the media fiance). I have met a few and they put me to shame. However when they do get on the air, this happens https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpobTX4u24k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 With respect to radical beliefs in Muslim countries, in most Middle East countries about 50% of the population thinks apostates should be killed (and in some countries it is higher). And then there is another percentage that thinks there should be a non-lethal punishment. That's more than a small minority. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/10/06/ben-affleck-and-bill-maher-are-both-wrong-about-islamic-fundamentalism/ http://es.redskins.com/topic/384218-affleck-vs-maher-on-islam/?p=10008914 If you consider killing somebody for leaving the religion a radical belief, about 50% of Middle Eastern Muslims are radical. Yup. And when someone arguing in favor of Islam and claiming that the mainstream is not radicalized presents this point in their favor, "in only two countries – Afghanistan and Iraq – do majorities condone extra-judicial executions of women who allegedly have shamed their families by engaging in premarital sex or adultery." Let's look at that again. In two countries that are sufficiently civilized to have general democratic elections, majorities believe in extra-judicial murder of women for alleged premarital sex or adultery. When you believe that half of your population are little more than candy or property for the other half of the population to be consumed or killed, you have serious ****ing problems with the values of those societies; and having large numbers of radical assholes who kill for thrills and pleasure is a consequence, and part of that spectrum and not in the extreme tail of the population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Victim blaming. How original, megared. I suspect you also blame women when they get raped because, well, they shouldn't wear such slutty clothing, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megared Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Victim blaming. How original, megared. I suspect you also blame women when they get raped because, well, they shouldn't wear such slutty clothing, right? That's not victim blaming. I prefaced it by saying they didn't deserve to die. But when you insult a billion plus people, is it out of the realm of possibility that there's a few crazy ones that will stop at nothing to make you pay? Funny thing is, there is censorship in France. In a place as free as here, our newspapers generally have the good sense to not publish outright inflammatory things that add no value to the information they're releasing to the public. Why is that? It's called judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 My understanding is that the Qur'an can not have been directly dictated word for word by God to Muhammad. In 5:116 Muhammad portrays God at Last Judgement and make him say: "O Jesus, son of Mary, Is it you who told people, take me and my mother for two gods outside of Allah? " God wouldn't have passed this heresy to his prophet, one unique God represented by three. The Prophet didn't know the nature of the christian religion, nor the Holy Trinity, so he couldn't have made God say that. You are viewing it through a Christian lens in the current day. You are assuming that the Holy Trinity is the one true way and that it is the correct interpretation. which was a concep that was no where near universal in adoption especially early on. The unification of Christianty was very messy and by no means a set theological path. Basically, from what I gather, you are arguing that since it deviates from the form Christianity that developed and became mainstream that it is an incorrect interpretation and therefore not from God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Funny thing is, there is censorship in France. In a place as free as here, our newspapers generally have the good sense to not publish outright inflammatory things that add no value to the information they're releasing to the public. Why is that? It's called judgement. I suspect that has to do more with the litigiousness of the American people. Plus, looking at the Wash Times and what's passed as news in most McClatchy owned papers, I'm not sure that I agree that "newspapers generally have the good sense to not publish outright inflammatory things". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Yup. And when someone arguing in favor of Islam and claiming that the mainstream is not radicalized presents this point in their favor, "in only two countries – Afghanistan and Iraq – do majorities condone extra-judicial executions of women who allegedly have shamed their families by engaging in premarital sex or adultery." Let's look at that again. In two countries that are sufficiently civilized to have general democratic elections, majorities believe in extra-judicial murder of women for alleged premarital sex or adultery. When you believe that half of your population are little more than candy or property for the other half of the population to be consumed or killed, you have serious ****ing problems with the values of those societies; and having large numbers of radical assholes who kill for thrills and pleasure is a consequence, and part of that spectrum and not in the extreme tail of the population. The solution to these problems are going to have to come within these countries. The good news is that I think you can see massive changes within a generation. The bad news is it takes a generation, and I'm not sure if the internal forces that can foster these necessary changes exist. For years, I assumed that Iran would once again lead the change, but I no longer know if that's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autoidiodyssey Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 The Charlie Hebdo suspects are reported to be dead and the hostage was freed. Good work by the French authorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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