BBC.com: Charlie Hebdo: Gun attack on French magazine kills 12

[TradeTheBeal!]

The worst part is that people buy it hook line and sinker. This thread is evidence of it..especially amongst some posters who should know a hell of a lot better.

 

It just boggles the mind.  

[tshile]

I have trouble getting worked up over 12 dead in a mass shooting in Paris.

Please don't take this the wrong way...

 

Intent and motive mean nothing to you with all these issues?

[zoony]

This is all from Pew Research.  First hit on a google search.  There is more, anyone care to read any of this stuff?  Or is Pew not credible? (I'm honestly asking)

 

 

In 10 of 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, at least half of Muslims who favor making sharia the law of the land also favor stoning unfaithful spouses.¹⁸

Some of the highest support for stoning is found in South Asia and the Middle East-North Africa region. In Pakistan (89%) and Afghanistan (85%), more than eight-in-ten Muslims who want Islamic law as their country’s official law say adulterers should be stoned, while nearly as many say the same in the Palestinian territories (84%) and Egypt (81%). A majority also support stoning as a penalty for the unfaithful in Jordan (67%), Iraq (58%). However, support is significantly lower in Lebanon (46%) and Tunisia (44%), where less than half of those who support sharia as the official law of the land believe that adulterers should be stoned.

In Southeast Asia, six-in-ten Muslims in Malaysia consider stoning an appropriate penalty for adultery. About half hold this view in Thailand (51%) and Indonesia (48%).

 

It is a mainstream Muslim belief that adulturers should be stoned.  In "progressive" Muslim countries, it's slightly less than half.  Which is still astonishing.

 

 

In Egypt, 86% of Muslims... 86%!!!!!!!!!!... support the death penalty for apostates

 

Compared with attitudes toward applying sharia in the domestic or criminal spheres, Muslims in the countries surveyed are significantly less supportive of the death penalty for converts.¹⁹ Nevertheless, in six of the 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, at least half of those who favor making Islamic law the official law also support executing apostates.

Taking the life of those who abandon Islam is most widely supported in Egypt (86%) and Jordan (82%). Roughly two-thirds who want sharia to be the law of the land also back this penalty in the Palestinian territories (66%). In the other countries surveyed in the Middle East-North Africa region, fewer than half take this view.

In the South Asian countries of Afghanistan and Pakistan, strong majorities of those who favor making Islamic law the official law of the land also approve of executing apostates (79% and 76%, respectively). However, in Bangladesh far fewer (44%) share this view.

 

 

on Women's rights

 

 

Although many Muslims endorse a woman’s right to choose how she appears in public, overwhelming majorities in most regions say a wife should always obey her husband. Medians of more than eight-in-ten Muslims express this view in Southeast Asia (93%), South Asia (88%), and the Middle East and North Africa (87%). Even in Central Asia, a region characterized by relatively low levels of religious observance and strong support for a woman’s right to decide whether to wear a veil, seven-in-ten Muslims agree that a wife should carry out her husband’s wishes.¹¹ Only in Southern and Eastern Europe do fewer than half (median of 43%) share this view.

 

 

 

I also found this tidbit interesting. 

 

 

In most countries where the question was asked, roughly three-quarters or more Muslims reject suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians. And in most countries, the prevailing view is that such acts are never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies. Yet there are some countries in which substantial minorities think violence against civilians is at least sometimes justified. This view is particularly widespread among Muslims in the Palestinian territories (40%), Afghanistan (39%), Egypt (29%) and Bangladesh (26%).

 

 

Okay, so 3/4 are against.  What about the 1/4?

[jpyaks3]

This is all from Pew Research.  First hit on a google search.  There is more, anyone care to read any of this stuff?  Or is Pew not credible? (I'm honestly asking)

 

 

 

It is a mainstream Muslim belief that adulturers should be stoned.  In "progressive" Muslim countries, it's slightly less than half.  Which is still astonishing.

 

 

In Egypt, 86% of Muslims... 86%!!!!!!!!!!... support the death penalty for apostates

 

 

 

on Women's rights

 

 

 

 

I also found this tidbit interesting. 

 

 

 

Okay, so 3/4 are against.  What about the 1/4?

From your own source (which can be found at http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf)

 

"At the same time, the survey finds that even in many countries where there is strong backing

for sharia, most Muslims favor religious freedom for people of other faiths. In Pakistan, for

example, three-quarters of Muslims say that non-Muslims are very free to practice their

religion, and fully 96% of those who share this assessment say it is “a good thing.” Yet 84% of

Pakistani Muslims favor enshrining sharia as official law. These seemingly divergent views are

possible partly because most supporters of sharia in Pakistan – as in many other countries –

think Islamic law should apply only to Muslims. Moreover, Muslims around the globe have

differing understandings of what sharia means in practice"

 

"In most countries where a question about so-called “honor” killings was asked,

majorities of Muslims say such killings are never justified. Only in two countries –

Afghanistan and Iraq – do majorities condone extra-judicial executions of women who

allegedly have shamed their families by engaging in premarital sex or adultery."

 

Also your comment about the other quarter for violence against civilians, 25 percent of Americans don't know that the Earth revolves around the sun and 40 percent believe that God created the earth less than 10,000 years ago....so taking a poll and extrapolating results especially around that 25 percent threshold can get some pretty wacky results. 

This is actually a pretty nuanced and interesting survey but I think making broad generalizations about it is dumb because once again there is no monolithic Muslim and like the poll states Shariah law means a ton of different things to different people so saying Muslims want Shariah law is actually pretty meaningless unless you get to specfic tenets. It would be interesting if you asked the Christian, Budhist, Hindu, or other populations in the regions what they thought because many things that people mistakenly attribute to Islam (such as FGM) are actually cultural practices for the regions (for FGM North Africa) and there isn't much of a difference in views between Christian groups and Muslim groups regarding it.  

 

[s0crates]

Assuming those statistics are accurate:

1. Are you saying Islam is the cause of those beliefs? Or is this only a correlation? Might other factors (say poverty, war, education) explain them?

2. How do you account for the discrepancies in different regions?

3. I'd also point out that Christian countries aren't far removed from oppressing women and torturing infidels. I'd even say we still have some fundamentalist types with similar belief systems.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Please don't take this the wrong way...

 

Intent and motive mean nothing to you with all these issues?

 

I don't take it the wrong way

 

I just expect more out of rich educated men in suits sitting comfortably in Tel Aviv and Washington DC then I do out of thugs raised in the slums of Paris

[headexplode]

I think we can all agree that people around the world, of all colors and creeds, are total pieces of ****. But I am an egalitarian.

[SkinsHokieFan]

This is all from Pew Research.  First hit on a google search.  There is more, anyone care to read any of this stuff?  Or is Pew not credible? (I'm honestly asking

 

 

 

A few things I think when I read your post

 

1) Who cares unless you are going to go there and live there. Even then you are white and have dollars and if there is one thing Muslims in that part of the world actually love, its white people who show up with dollars (and I am being serious)

 

2) They are no threat to your way of life and won't have an impact ever on your life, unless your taxes are raised to pay for George W's war to kill about 1 million of them during the first decade of this century, then they might have an impact

 

3) I was raised by a pretty traditional Pakistani mom who prays 5 times a day and fasts every day of Ramadan (I pray maybe twice a day and fast all of Ramadan)  yet somehow avoided being a misogynistic asshole who wants to stone adulterers. 

 

Is it because I am less Muslim then those people? Or probably because my parents raised me to be a decent human? 

 

 

Also your comment about the other quarter for violence against civilians, 25 percent of Americans don't know that the Earth revolves around the sun and 40 percent believe that God created the earth less than 10,000 years ago....so taking a poll and extrapolating results especially around that 25 percent threshold can get some pretty wacky results. 

 

 

I am curious how many Americans still think Iraq had WMDs

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/21/iraq-wmd-poll-clueless-vast-majority-republicans_n_1616012.html

 

A vast of majority of Republicans still do as late as June 2012

 

 

 

The poll, constructed by Dartmouth government professor Benjamin Valentino and conducted by YouGov from April 26 to May 2, found that fully 63 percent of Republican respondents still believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the U.S. invaded in 2003. By contrast, 27 percent of independents and 15 percent of Democrats shared that view.

 

And 42 percent of Americans STILL think we FOUND WMDs in Iraq as of yesterday!

 

http://publicmind.fdu.edu/2015/false/

 

Overall, 42 percent of Americans believe that U.S. forces found active weapons of mass destruction program in Iraq. Republicans are more likely to hold this belief than Democrats: fifty-one percent of Republicans think it’s “probably” or “definitely” true that an active program was found after the 2003 invasion, with 14 percent saying that it was definitely true. Still, large portions of other groups think that the WMD program, a major part of the justification for the invasion, was actually found, including 32 percent of Democrats. Part of the confusion may come from reports that individual chemical weapons shells, and related items have been found in Iraq, mostly thought to be vestiges of a WMD program shut down after the U.S.-led invasion in 1991

 

.

[Larry]

It is a mainstream Muslim belief that adulturers should be stoned.  In "progressive" Muslim countries, it's slightly less than half.  Which is still astonishing.

Slightly less that half of those who support legislating their religion.

 

In Egypt, 86% of Muslims... 86%!!!!!!!!!!... support the death penalty for apostates

 

 

86% of those who support legislating their religion. 

[Elessar78]

This is really a rhetorical question, but why do idealistic/fanatic muslims move to or continue to live in "free societies". 

 

They can't have it both ways. They or their parents cannot immigrate to a country, benefit from better educational and economic systems then rebel violently against it. If the mindset they want to perpetrate, an Islamocentric society, is so great . . . guess what? That's what the Theocracy in a dozen or so countries have set up—have fun with your religion there.

[I_Bleed_B&G]

You are wrong and simply putting your belief/spin on this issue.

 

When terror attacks happen, there are NO Muslim leaders coming out and attacking it.  There are no Muslim leaders condemning it.  In fact, there are Muslim leaders who say that killing in the name of defending Allah and Islam is the RIGHT thing to do.

 

Read the article from today in the USA Today (from a Muslim Cleric):  http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/01/07/islam-allah-muslims-shariah-anjem-choudary-editorials-debates/21417461/

 

This is the type of hate and sentiment that is the core of this religion.

 

Really?  Do you do any kind of research before posting?  I'll leave this here for you:

 

media.giphy.com/media/TlK63EwiHqemn41RRHq/giphy.gif

 

[Elessar78]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/fareed-zakaria-blasphemy-and-the-law-of-fanatics/2015/01/08/b0c14e38-9770-11e4-aabd-d0b93ff613d5_story.html?hpid=z2

 

"As they went on their rampage, the men who killed 12 people in Paris this week yelled that they had “avenged the prophet.” They follow in the path of other terrorists who have bombed newspaper offices, stabbed a filmmaker and killed writers and translators, all to mete out what they believe is the proper Koranic punishment for blasphemy. But in fact, the Koran prescribes no punishment for blasphemy. Like so many of the most fanatical and violent aspects of Islamic terrorism today, the idea that Islam requires that insults against the prophet Muhammad be met with violence is a creation of politicians and clerics to serve a political agenda.

"

[SkinsHokieFan]

This is really a rhetorical question, but why do idealistic/fanatic muslims move to or continue to live in "free societies". 

 

 

 

In general they do not.

 

And in reality, America is the best place on earth to practice Islam 

http://gawker.com/how-much-did-we-need-this-blasphemy-1678317390

[Elessar78]

Fair enough, then (rhetorical) why bite the hand that has become a welcoming place for people that share the faith? Not you of course. 

 

I don't know the proceedings in a khutbah(?) but is there a time when the Imam (church leader) addresses the "congregation"? In moderate Mosques, is radical Islam denounced? 

 

I checked around and many Islamic organizations around the world for this incident in Paris condemned the attacks. Many Islamic nations as well. 

NYT: 

Suspect in Paris Attacks Trained With Al Qaeda in Yemen, U.S. Official Says

 

"Mr. Kouachi as well as his younger brother Chérif, 32, have been under scrutiny for years by officials in France and the United States, and according to an American intelligence official both were in the American database of known or suspected terrorists and on the no-fly lists maintained by the government."

[SkinsHokieFan]

Fair enough, then (rhetorical) why bite the hand that has become a welcoming place for people that share the faith? Not you of course. 

 

I don't know the proceedings in a khutbah(?) but is there a time when the Imam (church leader) addresses the "congregation"? In moderate Mosques, is radical Islam denounced? 

 

I checked around and many Islamic organizations around the world for this incident in Paris condemned the attacks. Many Islamic nations as well. 

 

 

There are 2 places I go for Friday prayers, usually depending on where I am working that day.

 

The first place I go to is near work and I have gone to for years. 

 

http://www.ihcproject.com/

 

I have helped raise money for the Mosque and go to activities there from time to time. The khutbas are non political and generally only discuss issues like ISIS in broad terms, nothing specific. However they are conservative, the Imam here is more conservative and talks more about lessons and deeds from the Quran and Hadith. I would say though that it is non controversial, but definitely conservative, and certainly more conservative then I am

 

The other place I have been going to more and more, is called Make Space and is in Alexandria VA. 

 

http://www.imakespace.com/

 

http://www.imakespace.com/blog/

 

The Imam here is far more political, very progressive (even though he was born in Afghanistan) and on a weekly basis denounces ISIS and terror attacks. The Imam is also very liberal (in terms of US political leanings) so political discussions occur frequently. They sponsored an anti-ISIS training session, discussing ISIS recruiting tactics and methods to combat them. They had several activities during anti Domestic violence month talking very frankly about the issue, which is a major issue in Muslim homes in America.

 

There were at this press conference as well

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/us-muslim-leaders-denounce-islamic-state-pledge-to-dissuade-youth-from-joining/2014/09/10/e6a27f8e-38f9-11e4-bdfb-de4104544a37_story.html

 

 

My brother, who is far less religious then I am, went with me to a prayer while he was in town the other week. The line that struck out to him was "we must make a better world and community, not only for ourselves, but for atheists, Hindus, Jews and Christians"

 

So really it depends. I enjoy Make Space because many of my peers go there as well and it is a very positive message

[tshile]

This is really a rhetorical question, but why do idealistic/fanatic muslims move to or continue to live in "free societies". 

 

They can't have it both ways. They or their parents cannot immigrate to a country, benefit from better educational and economic systems then rebel violently against it. If the mindset they want to perpetrate, an Islamocentric society, is so great . . . guess what? That's what the Theocracy in a dozen or so countries have set up—have fun with your religion there.

Ah, but they can.

 

And they are. 

 

They'll likely continue too.

[IHOPSkins]

Frances no-go zones: where non-Muslims dare not tread.

http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/analysis/frances-no-go-zones-where-non-muslims-dare-not-tread/2012/08/28/

Muslims segregated from French society in growing Islamist mini-states

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/7/french-islamist-mini-states-grow-into-problem-out-/

French police chased from Muslim zone

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2aa_1414750787

Government website designating the 751 "Sensitive Urban Zones"

http://sig.ville.gouv.fr/Atlas/ZUS/

Sharia law coming to an "Enclave" near you

[SkinsHokieFan]

Lol at IHOPs links

[IHOPSkins]

Lol at IHOPs links

Lol at liberals that bury their head in the sand

Here is your Newspaper of Record......

Europe’s Anti-Semitism Comes Out of the Shadows

European officials are deeply concerned that radical Islam, nurtured in the Middle East, could take root in Europe. Mehdi Nemmouche, a French Muslim arrested in connection with the killings at the Jewish Museum in Brussels, fought as a jihadist in Syria. A French journalist who was held captive in Syria until April said Mr. Nemmouche had been one of his torturers.

“We are a microcosm of the Middle East,” said Philip Carmel, European policy director for the European Jewish Congress. “The Middle East is being imported into Europe.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/24/world/europe/europes-anti-semitism-comes-out-of-shadows.html?_r=0

[Destino]

The cultural bias in this thread is strong, which is normal unless you believe you represent objective truth and not simply your preferred way.  I imagine there are discussions like these taking place in the middle east about American society and they are equally horrified by statistics on American beliefs. 

 

Let's remember that the bad guys here are those pushing their beliefs on those that want no part of them through mass murder. 

[twa]

Lol at IHOPs links

 

links can be humorous, but is it any different than the problems you bemoan in Pakistan?

 

some are overstated, others problematic

 

stupid is as stupid does...and unfortunately it is in good supply there

[FrFan]

Terrorists have been located in a village a few miles from Paris. The village is under curfew, they're being holed up in a factory and took one hostage.

GIGN is going to take care of them.

[FrFan]

Murder: Quran 2:191, Qur'an 4:89, Qur'an 4:91, Qur'an 5:33, Qur'an 8:12, Qur'an 8:17, Qu'ran 33:61, Qu'ran 47:4

Other religions: Qur'an 5:51, Qur'an 9:30, Qur'an 5:14

Jesus Christ is not dead: Qu'ran 4:157

Women: Qur'an 4:34

looting: Qur'an 8:1

Death penalty for those who leave Islam: "But no doubt I would have killed since the Prophet said. If someone (a Mohammedan) deviates from his religion, kill him" Story of Ikrima, Bukhari LII 260

 

Tolerance

« Assalamu Alaikum » peace be upon you

Qu'ran 49:6

Qu'ran 49:13 The variety and human diversity are considered part of the blessing and mercy of God. People are encouraged to go beyond the mere coexistence and to actively seek to hear each other and build mutual supportive relationships.

Qu'ran 2:285 The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what the Lord revealed to him, like all men of faith do. Each of them believes in God, His Books, and His Messengers. "We're not making a distinction (they say) between one or another of His Messengers, and they add:' We hear and we obey; we beg Your pardon, Lord, and we return to you all. »

Qu'ran 5:82 In the Qur'an, Allah commands Muslims (and in fact all believers) to believe in Jesus, Moses and other biblical prophets, as all were sent by his grace to humanity.

 

Qu'ran is quite contradictory, therefore can be used by fundamentalists to raise hell upon us. I hope the highest muslim authorities will someday rewrite these verses calling for murders, looting, disrespect. That would help pulling the rug from under those fundamentalists' feet.
 

[Elessar78]

Lol at liberals that bury their head in the sand

 

oh right. only conservatives are informed. I do prefer it when you call us "sheeple"—much more creative. Reflects our group think and timid nature much better.

[grego]

Murder: Quran 2:191, Qur'an 4:89, Qur'an 4:91, Qur'an 5:33, Qur'an 8:12, Qur'an 8:17, Qu'ran 33:61, Qu'ran 47:4

Other religions: Qur'an 5:51, Qur'an 9:30, Qur'an 5:14

Jesus Christ is not dead: Qu'ran 4:157

Women: Qur'an 4:34

looting: Qur'an 8:1

Death penalty for those who leave Islam: "But no doubt I would have killed since the Prophet said. If someone (a Mohammedan) deviates from his religion, kill him" Story of Ikrima, Bukhari LII 260

Tolerance

« Assalamu Alaikum » peace be upon you

Qu'ran 49:6

Qu'ran 49:13 The variety and human diversity are considered part of the blessing and mercy of God. People are encouraged to go beyond the mere coexistence and to actively seek to hear each other and build mutual supportive relationships.

Qu'ran 2:285 The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what the Lord revealed to him, like all men of faith do. Each of them believes in God, His Books, and His Messengers. "We're not making a distinction (they say) between one or another of His Messengers, and they add:' We hear and we obey; we beg Your pardon, Lord, and we return to you all. »

Qu'ran 5:82 In the Qur'an, Allah commands Muslims (and in fact all believers) to believe in Jesus, Moses and other biblical prophets, as all were sent by his grace to humanity.

Qu'ran is quite contradictory, therefore can be used by fundamentalists to raise hell upon us. I hope the highest muslim authorities will someday rewrite these verses calling for murders, looting, disrespect. That would help pulling the rug from under those fundamentalists' feet.

As far as rewriting, was going to say "that'll never happen".

But,then, the Jehovahs witnesses did it.

Guess you could always claim a satanic verses situation.

I keed, I keed.

At least, a little.