megared Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I suspect that has to do more with the litigiousness of the American people. No. It came from doing it before. What they're doing now, American newspapers did 100+ years ago, to blacks, Native Americans, Irish, etc. They outgrew juvenile humor at the expense of disenfranchised minorities that you have to live amongst. It is pretty much the definition of counterproductive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 You are viewing it through a Christian lens in the current day. You are assuming that the Holy Trinity is the one true way and that it is the correct interpretation. which was a concep that was no where near universal in adoption especially early on. The unification of Christianty was very messy and by no means a set theological path. Basically, from what I gather, you are arguing that since it deviates from the form Christianity that developed and became mainstream that it is an incorrect interpretation and therefore not from God? Not at all, I never said that the Holy Trinity nor christianism nor any other religion is one and only true way. I just interpreted the verse, because it seems to be contradictory, between the Holy Trinity reference and the absence of knowledge about it from the Prophet. The Charlie Hebdo suspects are reported to be dead and the hostage was freed. Good work by the French authorities. They are all dead, the brothers and Coulibaly in the kosher market. Another person is dead, he is believed to be associated with Coulibaly. Casualties: one GIGN guy slightly injured, two RAID police officers injured during the kosher market assault. Edit: Coulibaly killed 3 hostages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Are stupid cartoons which serve only to inflame really worth that risk? They weren't iconic, symbolic, or emblematic...it seemed like they thrived off piquing the public's curiosity from being controversial. You obviously don't know anything about Charlie Hebdo. Stupid ? WTH !!! Cabu and Wolinski were iconic cartoonists ! They were condemning the barbarity of those religious fanatics through their cartoons, if you call this stupid thriving off public curiosity or controversial you're out of your mind. In 2007 Charlie Hebdo was sued by the representatives of the Great Mosque of Paris and the Muslim Brotherhood's Hani Ramadan and Yussuf al-Qaradawi. CH won the trial and another one. Cabu used to draw cartoons in a very famous children tv show, his favorites targets were racists, hunters, polluters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeesburgSkinFan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 4 hostages reportedly killed: http://news.sky.com/story/1405106/hostages-killed-as-supermarket-siege-ends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbunny Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 And all 3 terrorists dead. Another unkown dad almost. Will have to ID him. Yeepeekaie mother****ers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Lol, even Hezbollah condemned the attack http://bigstory.ap.org/article/dc2d5f2be90840999a72a696b02f9b86/hezbollah-chief-extremists-harm-islam-more-cartoons BEIRUT (AP) — The leader of the Lebanese Hezbollah group says Islamic extremists have insulted Islam and the Prophet Muhammad more than those who published satirical cartoons mocking the religion. Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah did not directly mention the Paris attack on the offices of Charlie Hebdo that left 12 people dead, but he said Islamic extremists who behead and slaughter people — a reference to the IS group's rampages in Iraq and Syria — have done more harm to Islam than anyone else in history. Nasrallah spoke Friday via video link to supporters gathered in southern Beirut. Nasrallah's Shiite group is fighting in Syria alongside President Bashar Assad. His remarks are in stark contrast to those of Sunni militants from the IS group and al-Qaida who have called for attacks on Western countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Lol, even Hezbollah condemned the attack http://bigstory.ap.org/article/dc2d5f2be90840999a72a696b02f9b86/hezbollah-chief-extremists-harm-islam-more-cartoons Realistically, Hezbollah is speaking out against ISIS because they are supported by the Assad regime in Syria. Success by ISIS directly harms Hezbollah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megared Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 You obviously don't know anything about Charlie Hebdo. Stupid ? WTH !!! Cabu and Wolinski were iconic cartoonists ! They were condemning the barbarity of those religious fanatics through their cartoons, if you call this stupid thriving off public curiosity or controversial you're out of your mind. Cabu used to draw cartoons in a very famous children tv show, his favorites targets were racists, hunters, polluters. I'm talking about the role of the Charlie Hebdo. They cowered behind 'personal freedom' in order to justify hateful and stupid messages, albeit to many different groups. Subjects that were/are the lowest hanging fruit. It's real easy to capitalize from sentiments that are apparent, and fan the flames. How good were they at creating their own social commentary? Reminds me of a teenager that draws something obscene on a bathroom stall. It's easier to be destructive than constructive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeWolf990 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I'm talking about the role of the Charlie Hebdo. They cowered behind 'personal freedom' in order to justify hateful and stupid messages, albeit to many different groups. Subjects that were/are the lowest hanging fruit. It's real easy to capitalize from sentiments that are apparent, and fan the flames. How good were they at creating their own social commentary? Reminds me of a teenager that draws something obscene on a bathroom stall. It's easier to be destructive than constructive... this is my feeling also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Reminds me of a teenager that draws something obscene on a bathroom stall. It's easier to be destructive than constructive... You're making a judgement here and I'm sure you never read nor seen any of their cartoons. Since when condemning fanatics barbary through cartoons is destructive ? How come opening a debate about a certain use of islam and self-censorship isn't constructive ? You're obviously seeing this by a tiny little lens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Realistically, Hamas is speaking out against ISIS because they are supported by the Assad regime in Syria. Success by ISIS directly harms Hamas. Hamas does not equal Hezbollah And I was speaking more so on the Paris attack then the Shia vs Sunni battle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Not at all, I never said that the Holy Trinity nor christianism nor any other religion is one and only true way. I just interpreted the verse, because it seems to be contradictory, between the Holy Trinity reference and the absence of knowledge about it from the Prophet. I am not extremely versed in the Quran and different interpretations of that passage so I will defer to what seems to be a better source Here is the quote traslated slightly differently 5:116 And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. With further analysis at http://islamfrominside.com/Pages/Tafsir/Tafsir(5-116%20to%20120).html The Qur'an's use of "son of Mary" as a title accomplishes several goals in a single phrase. It establishes Jesus' humanity and counters the notion of his divinity at the same time that it reasserts, in a turn of phrase, the unique manner of his birth. Also, it indicates that, aside from the honour of being a Prophet, it is an honour for Jesus simply to be the son of a woman who is given such a high position by Allah. So being a son of a woman like Mary is itself a signal honour - so much so that this sonship is made an official title and a mention of Jesus necessitates a mention of his mother. In other words Jesus is known through his mother (son of Mary) whereas Mary is not known though her son (mother of Jesus) but on her own merits. This is significant as it is a unique situation. For example, Moses' mother is referred to as the "mother of Moses", gaining her identity through her son. Mary, however, is "chosen" and both her and Jesus were made "signs" for all mankind...... The phrasing of this verse is interesting in that it asks, "Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God." When focus and emphasis is shifted towards God's creation, then the focus is shifted away from God. This is a derogating action since a shifting of focus to one area results in a loss of focus in another. Worship is exclusively for God. Worship, even of the kind given to saints and icons of the church, results in the derogation of God - he is no longer at the centre of focus. The phrasing of the Qur'an thus gives us clues as to the reason for not allowing this worship (even though the Christian form of saint and icon worship is very mild compared to true idolatry). I think that trying to intepret any single Surah and to hold that up as a gotcha like people seem to love to do with this one goes counter to how pretty much any religious text is read...with a lot of nuance, interpretation, and wiggle room all around. But once again I am not terribly versed in theology especially the varied interpretations of Surahs like this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megared Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 You're making a judgement here and I'm sure you never read nor seen any of their cartoons. Since when condemning fanatics barbary through cartoons is destructive ? How come opening a debate about a certain use of islam and self-censorship isn't constructive ? You're obviously seeing this by a tiny little lens. So depicting a religion's prophet in sexually explicit positions is somehow providing a thought provoking commentary? No, their propensity to being irreverent to things people held dear passed being a weird obsession long ago. What's ironic to me is that many cartoonists have come out in support of Charlie Hebdo. If it was them, they would've mocked someone else's death in order to drum up controversy and sell magazines. It's myopic to point at another group and blame the world's problems on them, and then play victim. Why is no one examining the past time France has of imperialism and interference in these countries' affairs? They conquered and ruled however many countries and told generations of people 'France is the best place in the world'...and now you're mad they want to live there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Hamas does not equal Hezbollah And I was speaking more so on the Paris attack then the Shia vs Sunni battle You are right. What I wrote is actually true for Hezbollah and not so much for Hamas. I edited the post. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/09/us-france-shooting-hezbollah-idUSKBN0KI1OM20150109 "Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah said what he called "takfiri terrorist groups" had insulted Islam more than "even those who have attacked the messenger of God through books depicting the Prophet or making films depicting the Prophet or drawing cartoons of the Prophet."" He's taking a shot at ISIS and he's doing it because the success of ISIS is bad for his organization, which has been supported by Syria. He's not even saying what happened in Paris was wrong. He's saying ISIS is worse. Because the success of ISIS is bad for his organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Cnn reporting a female suspect on the run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/09/world/europe/raising-questions-within-islam-after-france-shooting.html?smid=tw-share Raising Questions Within Islam After France Shooting CAIRO — Islamist extremists behead Western journalists in Syria, massacre thousands of Iraqis, murder 132 Pakistani schoolchildren, kill a Canadian soldier and take hostage cafe patrons in Australia. Now, two gunmen have massacred a dozen people in the office of a Paris newspaper. The rash of horrific attacks in the name of Islam is spurring an anguished debate among Muslims here in the heart of the Islamic world about why their religion appears cited so often as a cause for violence and bloodshed. The majority of scholars and the faithful say Islam is no more inherently violent than other religions. But some Muslims — most notably the president of Egypt — argue that the contemporary understanding of their religion is infected with justifications for violence, requiring the government and its official clerics to correct the teaching of Islam. Continue reading the main stor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 You're making a judgement here and I'm sure you never read nor seen any of their cartoons. Since when condemning fanatics barbary through cartoons is destructive ? How come opening a debate about a certain use of islam and self-censorship isn't constructive ? You're obviously seeing this by a tiny little lens. Actually, we have all seen their cartoons in the last few days. They are all over the internet. Many of the ones I saw seemed pretty puerile to me. Look at the one in the middle of this page. The French there translates to: "Mohammed. A star is born." Now I am NOT saying that anyone should die or be censored or anything like that. I am a freedom of speech advocate. But I also won't try to pretend that all speech is equally classy or useful. That cartoon is neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar78 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 A blogger was flogged in Saudia Arabia today for publicly criticizing clerics. Saudia Arabia made a statement denouncing the terrorist attacks in Paris, but this stuff is allowed to go on in their country. Both are deemed not in keeping with Islam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 A blogger was flogged in Saudia Arabia today for publicly criticizing clerics. Saudia Arabia made a statement denouncing the terrorist attacks in Paris, but this stuff is allowed to go on in their country. Both are deemed not in keeping with Islam. Is that really about religion though or are they punishing him for criticizing their authority. For instance there are a lot of countries, secular countries where you will get jailed or worse for publicly criticizing the political leadership or the military. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 A blogger was flogged in Saudia Arabia today for publicly criticizing clerics. Saudia Arabia made a statement denouncing the terrorist attacks in Paris, but this stuff is allowed to go on in their country. Both are deemed not in keeping with Islam. That is the House of Saud protecting its power base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 So depicting a religion's prophet in sexually explicit positions is somehow providing a thought provoking commentary? No, their propensity to being irreverent to things people held dear passed being a weird obsession long ago. What's ironic to me is that many cartoonists have come out in support of Charlie Hebdo. If it was them, they would've mocked someone else's death in order to drum up controversy and sell magazines. It's myopic to point at another group and blame the world's problems on them, and then play victim. Why is no one examining the past time France has of imperialism and interference in these countries' affairs? They conquered and ruled however many countries and told generations of people 'France is the best place in the world'...and now you're mad they want to live there? Since when they claimed they were fighting back the french colonialism ? They claimed to fight the Jews and the misbelievers from the western countries. "They conquered and ruled however many countries and told generations of people 'France is the best place in the world'.." WTH is this non sense coming from ? This is pure BS, you better study french history before talking. We're playing victims ? Never heard that before. You sound like a pure french hater who's talking about a country he doesn't know much about. I leave it there, believe what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Is that really about religion though or are they punishing him for criticizing their authority. For instance there are a lot of countries, secular countries where you will get jailed or worse for publicly criticizing the political leadership or the military. I dare you to go to Thailand and say something bad about the King, even in casual conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megared Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Since when they claimed they were fighting back the french colonialism ? They claimed to fight the Jews and the misbelievers from the western countries. "They conquered and ruled however many countries and told generations of people 'France is the best place in the world'.." WTH is this non sense coming from ? This is pure BS, you better study french history before talking. We're playing victims ? Never heard that before. You sound like a pure french hater who's talking about a country he doesn't know much about. I leave it there, believe what you want. You're refusing to consider the circumstances beyond 'muslims being sensitive'. Look at these 'woe is me' books like 'The French Suicide' and 'Submission', bemoaning immigrants presence. Well maybe if your ancestors hadn't have left their home in the first place like conquistadors, your country wouldn't be the place to go for poor people from French speaking countries...that speak French because... I don't hate France. Hate requires effort. I do dislike lazy intellectual conclusions that only include one side of an argument. I argue against Islamophobia anywhere, not just in France. I do think these cartoonists only capitalized off of using people's fears and dislikes of other cultures, beliefs and religions. They created nothing. With the inundation of cartoons they made being shown all over the internet, I've found the artistry in the tributes to far exceed anything they ever did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Now I am NOT saying that anyone should die or be censored or anything like that. I am a freedom of speech advocate. But I also won't try to pretend that all speech is equally classy or useful. That cartoon is neither. I understand you may take it as classless, here most of the people don't because they have a different way to react to cartoonists provocations. This sentence sums up the different opinions between most foreign countries and anglo-saxons countries. None is right none is wrong. "Paris - far rarely shown, the Muhammad cartoons, which made Charlie Hebdo targeted by Islamists, since the attack against the weekly was relayed by newspapers and websites around the world, but not all: great English and American media refused to publish them, prudence or fear of offending." Link (google translated) A Close Call on Publication of Charlie Hebdo Cartoons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Since when they claimed they were fighting back the french colonialism ? They claimed to fight the Jews and the misbelievers from the western countries. "They conquered and ruled however many countries and told generations of people 'France is the best place in the world'.." WTH is this non sense coming from ? This is pure BS, you better study french history before talking. We're playing victims ? Never heard that before. You sound like a pure french hater who's talking about a country he doesn't know much about. I leave it there, believe what you want. welcome to America's brand of liberal guilt. Hit me again Ike, this time put some stank on it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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