PeterMP Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 "Let the one without sin cast the first stone." I think that explains itself. It seems to me Christians have been casting stones at Islam, and I've reminded them that Christianity is not without sin. Well, if we want to extrapolate this out far enough, we can prevent Christians from discussing any and all possible contributing factors of terrorism. Isn't discussing the possible role of lack of education in terrorism casting stones at the uneducated using the same logic. Yet, I don't think that is what was intended by Jesus or a way of generating a productive conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Jesus would have said things differently if he knew the internet was coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 PeterMP, on your adultery angle, and I don't intend to derail, but isn't there similarity to aspects of the Christian faith where masturbation or sex out of holy matrimony (among many examples) is damnable sin, and while you may (do) fail to eliminate the sinful behavior (as also with "lying"), to be forgiven you have to at least be truly repentant "in your heart" (my quotes) and try your utmost to change the behavior (even if you fail repeatedly). But with most Christians (over history and now) who masturbate (a rather large number I'd suggest) or have out of wedlock sex (ditto) reality suggests they aren't "truly repentant in their heart" and fully intend to do "it" again, so they are not "really Christian" either by argument? Point being mass segments of each of the "Abrahamic (Semitic) religions do things or ascribe to thinking that make them "not truly of their faith" by dogma yet still consider themselves faithful adherents and are still generally perceived and treated as such by even clergy (inc. with my Christian examples) and congregation (or equivalent). Yet another framing: "I'm Muslim, and I don't believe in stoning women for adultery. But I AM Muslim, and am accepted as such by my Muslim fellows." "I'm Christian, and I do masturbate (or have sex out of wedlock),....etc." I think this is a reasonable frame work. It even gets more complex with respect to Islam because there is the Koran, which is supposed to be the literal word of God, and then there are the hadiths, which are supposed to be stories of Muhammad and his sayings and of people associated with him. Generally historically, they appear to be given almost right equal weight as the Koran in many strains of Islam. But the hadiths in general seem to be more conservative. Can I be a Muslim and even accept that the Koran is the literal word of God, but not accept the hadiths as significant religious text? I'm not going to tell such a person they are not Muslim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 "Let the one without sin cast the first stone." I think that explains itself. It seems to me Christians have been casting stones at Islam, and I've reminded them that Christianity is not without sin. That is right but Christians have learned from their wrongdoings, there are no more barbaric slaughterings in the name of God. But the hadiths in general seem to be more conservative. Can I be a Muslim and even accept that the Koran is the literal word of God, but not accept the hadiths as significant religious text? I'm not going to tell such a person they are not Muslim. The Qur'an is very clear about it, muslims must follow the Quran and reject all hadiths. The Arabic word "hadith" generally means "words, narrative, story". The word "hadith" refers to personal words supposedly said by the prophet. These hadiths are considered by the majority of "scientists" as the second source of law after the Qur'an, despite clear orders given in the Qur'an to follow only the Qur'an and to reject all hadiths. 31:6 "And of the people is he who buys the amusement of speech to mislead [others] from the way of Allah without knowledge and who takes it in ridicule. Those will have a humiliating punishment." 45:6 "These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe?" 7:2-3 "[This is] a Book revealed to you, [O Muhammad] - so let there not be in your breast distress therefrom - that you may warn thereby and as a reminder to the believers. Follow, [O mankind], what has been revealed to you from your Lord and do not follow other than Him any allies. Little do you remember." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Jesus would have said things differently if he knew the internet was coming. Now that's funny! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 That is right but Christians have learned from their wrongdoings, there are no more barbaric slaughterings in the name of God. The Qur'an is very clear about it, muslims must follow the Quran and reject all hadiths. The Arabic word "hadith" generally means "words, narrative, story". The word "hadith" refers to personal words supposedly said by the prophet. These hadiths are considered by the majority of "scientists" as the second source of law after the Qur'an, despite clear orders given in the Qur'an to follow only the Qur'an and to reject all hadiths. 31:6 "And of the people is he who buys the amusement of speech to mislead [others] from the way of Allah without knowledge and who takes it in ridicule. Those will have a humiliating punishment." 45:6 "These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe?" 7:2-3 "[This is] a Book revealed to you, [O Muhammad] - so let there not be in your breast distress therefrom - that you may warn thereby and as a reminder to the believers. Follow, [O mankind], what has been revealed to you from your Lord and do not follow other than Him any allies. Little do you remember." To me my post cuts both ways. I'm not a Koranic expert or Islamic expert and am not really going to argue the Koran based legitimacy of using the hadiths as an important guide in Islamic life. However, it is my understanding that there was a lot of importance given to the hadiths very early in Islam and that practice has continued through out history, especially in the region where Islam started. I'm not about to tell those people they and their ancestors were wrong with respect to the practice of Islam. I mean you might be right, but I'd be willing to bet those people have what they consider important and significant reasons for using the hadiths in the way they do, and I suspect that even included quotes from the Koran. (Though, if I was given the job of liberalizing Islam from what I know, I'd be working to minimize the importance of the hadiths from every day Muslim life, but from what I know you'd be fighting a lot of tradition and history there in some Muslim cultures.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I mean you might be right, but I'd be willing to bet those people have what they consider important and significant reasons for using the hadiths in the way they do, and I suspect that even included quotes from the Koran. Hadiths contain harsh, dehumanizing words, clearly marked by the culture of the time. After the death of Muhammad, representing the livings was prohibited, certainly in order to fight against idolatry. Islam was born in a pagan context and the return to polytheism was an obsession in the early centuries of its development. Therefore, hadiths became the cornerstone for establishing the rule of non-representation of life. This week end TV journalists conducted a live poll outside many mosques. They asked the muslims (from blue collars to white collars, from young to old) is depicting the Prophet allowed in Qu'ran? All of them answered no. Even islamologist Tariq Ramadan (his grandfather founded the muslim brothers) on TV claimed it is not allowed, until the journalist (after the third try) forced him to confess otherwise. Here is a real problem, educated people using the texts the way it fits them and ignoring others or what is not prohibited in Qu'ran. In the land of the blind the one-eyed is king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 http://bigstory.ap.org/article/3a1e0443b6824cd18348074e4dc053dc/louisianas-jindal-doubling-down-no-go-zone-assertion Louisiana's Jindal doubling down on 'no-go zone' assertion Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal plans to double down on the assertion there are neighborhoods in Western nations where Islamic traditions trump civic laws, a move that appears aimed at standing out in a crowded field of potential Republican candidates for president. Yet some in his party question if it's a strategy that has the potential to resonate in the early voting states of Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina, especially if well-funded establishment favorites — including former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush and 2012 GOP nominee Mitt Romney — join the race. "He's in a battle for headlines in a field that includes Jeb and Mitt," said Ford O'Connell, a Republican strategist who advised John McCain's presidential bid on connecting with rural voters. The hubbub began Monday in London, when Jindal told a think tank audience that some countries have allowed Muslims to establish autonomous "no-go zone" neighborhoods in cities where they govern by a harsh version of Islamic law. Jindal also said non-Muslims avoided the neighborhoods. Aides said that Jindal, who returns from Europe late Tuesday, planned to repeat the statements on Wednesday. His advisers provided a handful of media reports suggesting that Muslims in some European countries have asserted control over law enforcement functions in certain neighborhoods. But British Prime Minister David Cameron has called such assertions bunk. Fox News apologized for airing an interview with an American author who made similar assertions, and an official with Paris' City Hall said Tuesday the city plans to sue Fox News for airing the statements. Like many other countries, Britain and France have crime-plagued neighborhoods where outsiders risk muggings and violence. In Europe, some of these areas are predominantly Muslim, in large part because they were settled by poor families from former colonies with Muslim majorities. While drug gangs and radical imams sometimes vie for influence in these zones, none is subject to the rule of Sharia. Muslims in some European countries can legally consult Sharia councils — often erroneously called Sharia courts — for the settlement of family disputes. But these councils have never replaced the law of the land or the authority of police and courts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 This week end TV journalists conducted Here is a real problem, educated people using the texts the way it fits them and ignoring others or what is not prohibited in Qu'ran. In the land of the blind the one-eyed is king. How much of the "ignorance" by the "blind"is real ignorance vs. psychological issues with admitting things they know (as suggested based on your story) or simply not wanting to learn things are false that they want to be true do you think? As far as I know there are no issues with pratical access to Korans or even religious restrictions to accessing the Koran. This isn't the Middle Ages where there is a real issue with access to information. How much of this problem is really education/ignorance vs. something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 12th Commandment Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2015/01/20/pkg-amanpour-fox-news-paris-france-iaw.cnn The satire comes full circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 This isn't the Middle Ages where there is a real access to information. How much of this problem is really education/ignorance vs. something else? That's the major problem, I think there is a rampant selective teaching of Qu'ran. Depicting the Prophet isn't prohibited but yet the devouts are taught otherwise, and more dangerously, islamologists like Ramadan (he's a consultant for the EEC !!!) are supporting this message. Muslims don't have a respected authority such as the Pope for the christians. On the contrary, beside the shiism between shiites and sunnis they have many cults. - Popular Islam with its ritual traditions and practices. Moroccan immigrant families in Belgium belong to this Islam. - Sufism, humanism and lifestyle fully turned to spirituality. It fascinates the western world and makes converts. - Secularizing Islam (modern): reformist intellectuals reinterpret the Koran and other founding documents for a modern Islam (Turkey). - Conventional Islam that Islam is often the official islam of political regimes (Saudi Arabia, the Gulf oil states, Iran ...). It is represented by the Wahhabi standard, which is opposed to modernity. - Political Islam (Islamism) with both violent and radical legalistic tendencies that both call for jihad and martyrdom. Inside this one there are two standards: Legalistic Islamism: represented through political parties in and attempts to form a state within the state. Examples are the Muslim Brotherhood, the FIS in Algeria, Refah in Turkey, Hezbollah in Palestine. Fundamentalist and revolutionary Islamism: seeks to promote an Islamic state through violence and terrorism. For example, the GIA in Algeria, the Taliban in Afghanistan, Al Qaeda, Hamas in Lebanon, the organization "Liberation Party" in London. The term "Islamism" reappeared in France in the late 70s in response to the need to identify new trends posing a political and ideological interpretation of Islam and to make a difference with Islam as a faith. Most of them clash with secularism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2015/01/20/pkg-amanpour-fox-news-paris-france-iaw.cnn The satire comes full circle. Mayor of Paris decided to sue Fox despite four rounds of apologies from the network. BREAKING: Paris is going to sue @FoxNews after image of Paris was “insulted” and “prejudiced,” Mayor @Anne_Hidalgo tells me. Christiane Amanpour (@camanpour) "Fox News has apologized, perhaps, but continues to report about areas of high crime in Paris, which is still wrong. The problem is not the editorial line, obviously, but the dissemination of false information, which is detrimental to the image of Paris in general." Pure example of extreme disinformation like the one I pointed out a few days ago Here 1) Nolan Peterson comparing areas of Paris to Afghanistan and Irak ! 2) The maps he got are representing SUZ, sensitive urban zone for income, employability, and social security integration. 3) Yesterday they went back at it, talking about zones where police don't even go ! displaying videos of the 2005 riots and making the audience think that is the daily life in Paris ! 4) They hosted Nigel Farage leader of the UK independant party, and asked him: why would France or any other country allow muslims that have come in the country to basically take over portions of the country ?, that is madness to me. So basically they are asking this question based on false informations to a guy representing the most conservative english political party (like the national front here) ! Brilliant ! The worst is yet to come. 5) What other countries have allowed muslims to separate and create this independant state and sharia courts ? ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Churches in Niger burned over 'Charlie Hebdo' cover http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/01/19/niger-charlie-hebdo/22030521/ Forty-five churches burned in the African country of Niger during the weekend in protests over depictions of the prophet Muhammed published in a French weekly that led to a Jan. 7 terror attack. At least 10 people have died in the torchings fueled by cartoons published in the weekly Charlie Hebdo, according to the BBC. Hotels and bars also burned during the fires, as well as a school and an orphanage, the BBC and Agence France Presse report. The fires prompted the government to call for three days of mourning, the BBC reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/23/us-france-davos-idUSKBN0KW1D620150123?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews France's message to Davos: do your part to fight terrorism Maybe bring the red lady along too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/23/us-france-davos-idUSKBN0KW1D620150123?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews Maybe bring the red lady along too. This clown needs to stop his stupid hypocrit rhetoric, people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. He better get his act together and stop paying or make french companies pay ransoms for hostages ! Since he hit an all time rock bottom popularity, he's always very prompt to pay ransoms for journalists (75% of them being socialists). Paying Ransoms, Europe Bankrolls Qaeda Terror Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Churches in Niger burned over 'Charlie Hebdo' cover http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/01/19/niger-charlie-hebdo/22030521/ Nice reaction, you ignorant ****ing boobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 God save us from the people who love you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 God save us from the people who love you. Very politically correct of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ea75e7295b004e2e879b203c3f608bd0/french-fracture-laid-bare-8-year-old-praises-terrorists French fracture laid bare as 8-year-old praises terrorists It was bad enough when France learned that the minute of silence for victims of the nation's deadliest terror attacks in decades was not respected by all students. Some children contested it, others walked out. But when an 8-year old Muslim boy proclaimed, "I am with the terrorists," the alarm bells sounded at full strength. The chilling call from a child so young brought into stark relief the divide between mainstream France and a portion of the Muslim population, often from neglected neighborhoods. But the official reaction — hauling the boy into the police station for questioning — also triggered debate, with many seeing it as a sign of mounting hysteria. The fierce official backlash against expressions of Muslim extremism in the wake of this month's Paris terror attacks stems in part from the sheer numbers of homegrown jihadis. More French have embraced jihad in Syria and Iraq than in any other European country — over 1,000. Dozens of these fighters have returned, feeding fears they could turn their battle skills on France. In early January, those fears were realized, as three Frenchmen with links to Islamic extremists went on their murderous rampage, killing journalists at the satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo, a policewoman, a policeman and shoppers at a kosher grocery store. The French government is desperate to prevent more bloodshed. This week, it started a "stop jihad" website that mimics the media tactics of the Islamic State group luring youth to the battlefront — while, crucially, adding a dose of real-life warnings about what the siren calls from Syria can mean. They range from being killed far from home to having a role in massacres of children. President Francois Hollande held a day-long emergency meeting on Thursday with school officials, associations and mayors of poor suburbs with crime-infested housing projects — widely believed to also be filled with potential jihadis. The government is trying to devise a plan to bridge the divide between the haves and have-nots and bring the values that define French citizenship, notably equality and secularism, to this parallel world. The pronouncement by the 8-year-old at a school in Nice in support of the terrorists who killed 17 people this month illustrates how the issues that divide may be seeded long before adolescence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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