The case for firing Gruden ASAP

[topdog]

There are not many coaches who can win with this roster. All the traded draft picks and the 36mil cap penalty no free agent signings for 2 years.It's a depleted roster and has been for awhile. Gruden  deserves a little room and time to develop the roster and coaching staff to move the team forward after 3rd year if still no progress then make change.

[Conn]

So we're supposed to hold onto Gruden so that when we eventually do fire him we will look better for not firing him right away? Okay

Exactly what I was thinking. People are more worried about perception than outcome.

[TSO]

This guy has contradicted himself and so unwilling to acknowlege any form of change that you have to ask what is he thinking. During the offseason we were told we'd lean on the run and basically run a very similar offense for consistency.

What does he do, forgets that Alfred Morris even exists and decides we're running a pro style offense not the WCO.

This has gone over great as Morris has one 100 yard game and both of our existing QB's, plus the QB are confused running the offense. I mean tell me this is not true!

 

 

 

So we're supposed to hold onto Gruden so that when we eventually do fire him we will look better for not firing him right away? Okay

 

Wow, point completely flew over your heads, lol. I wasn't even judging Gruden here... I'm not willing to right now. 

 

But, if he is that awful then should we be focused on him or the ones who hired him? A hire where things just don't work out because of unforeseen issues or the guy simply wasn't cut out for it is okay sometimes. You could chalk it up to some misfortune. But when you give a guy a 5 year contract and he's that awful to where you can't even trust him to get better and you're unwilling to even give him that opportunity, what does that say about your hiring skills? 

 

My point was that I think we're focused on the least of our problems. I posted yesterday the list of our problems (and I think they're ALL problems) as follows: 

 

1- Dan Snyder

2- Dan Snyder

3- Dan Snyder

4- Bruce Allen as GM

5- Scouting Department

6- Jim Haslett

7- Player personnel

8- Rest of the coaches, including Gruden

 

So forgive me if I think us fans here are being a bit foolish here by focusing so heavily on problem #8. If it were up to me, we'd have an amount of threads and posts made proportionately to those issues, but instead, we have a very vocal group that can't stop talking about the least of our issues.   

[NoCalMike]

Jackson was a fun signing, has made for some exciting plays, but the time it will take to rebuild this team into a winner, will mean he is either gone, or basically will be Santana Moss 2.0 where his best most productive years will be spent on a losing team.

[Taylor703]

so walk me through what we do? who are we getting rid of and who are we keeping? and please keep it realistic, not a "OMG LIKE FIRE EVERYBODY AND SELL THE TEAM!" I could be on board with moving on from gruden if there was a real answer but so far i havent heard one.

if you say art briles we can stop right there lol

I've never advocated Art Briles. I like Jay Gruden but it's not working. This team has no interest in what he's selling.

How about bringing Todd Bowles back home?

[The Wicked Wop]

Wow, point completely flew over your heads, lol. I wasn't even judging Gruden here... I'm not willing to right now. 

 

But, if he is that awful then should we be focused on him or the ones who hired him? A hire where things just don't work out because of unforeseen issues or the guy simply wasn't cut out for it is okay sometimes. You could chalk it up to some misfortune. But when you give a guy a 5 year contract and he's that awful to where you can't even trust him to get better and you're unwilling to even give him that opportunity, what does that say about your hiring skills? 

 

My point was that I think we're focused on the least of our problems. I posted yesterday the list of our problems (and I think they're ALL problems) as follows: 

 

1- Dan Snyder

2- Dan Snyder

3- Dan Snyder

4- Bruce Allen as GM

5- Scouting Department

6- Jim Haslett

7- Player personnel

8- Rest of the coaches, including Gruden

 

So forgive me if I think us fans here are being a bit foolish here by focusing so heavily on problem #8. If it were up to me, we'd have an amount of threads and posts made proportionately to those issues, but instead, we have a very vocal group that can't stop talking about the least of our issues.

What has #1-3 done during this season that has held Gruden back.

[Garcon More Wine]

I've never advocated Art Briles. I like Jay Gruden but it's not working. This team has no interest in what he's selling.

How about bringing Todd Bowles back home?

 

he definitely runs a nice defense in AZ, and id love him as our D coordinator.  if we went to him as HC i wouldnt be that upset, i just hate the idea of one and done.  id like to give gruden one off season where he gets to mold his own team.  he essentially was given shannys ****ty 3-13 with a few bad free agent additions, tough to expect much else.  id love to see a roster purge this offseason, give gruden the players hes looking for, and let him roll one more year.  if we dont see any improvement, we can zorn him.

[Taylor703]

he definitely runs a nice defense in AZ, and id love him as our D coordinator. if we went to him as HC i wouldnt be that upset, i just hate the idea of one and done. id like to give gruden one off season where he gets to mold his own team. he essentially was given shannys ****ty 3-13 with a few bad free agent additions, tough to expect much else. id love to see a roster purge this offseason, give gruden the players hes looking for, and let him roll one more year. if we dont see any improvement, we can zorn him.

The problem with this is if he's a lame-duck coach than you're wasting draft choices that fit into his and his coordinators systems. We would have a lot of cap space and a top 5 pick in every round. That's very enticing to a new coach and an up and coming GM prospect. Yes the one and done sucks but if it works no one will ever remember it.

[Garcon More Wine]

if hes this bad again next year we'll have all the same draft slots haha.

[TSO]

What has #1-3 done during this season that has held Gruden back.

 

Well, if Gruden is as incompetent as you claim, he hired the guy (Allen) who hired such an incompetent fool.

 

Also, by all accounts this season (via media and Gruden himself), he's totally involved with Allen in everything they do, which is NOT what an owner should be doing.

 

That should be enough, but then you throw in all the talk of him undermining the authority on the team, which should reside exclusively with the HC, by enabling his "superstars"... well, yeah. I think enough said.     

[Bishop Hammer]

I would do a happy dance if Larry Michael is fired

I would call him a "homer" but he's getting paid to support the Skins. I don't know why I blindly support them, sometimes?

[TD Riggo]

Firing a new coach after the first year.

 

It's thought processes like these that's the reason why our organization is a league-wide joke.

 

 

OR

 

Hiring guys like Jay and Zorn with absolutely no head coaching experience, and little to none as a coordinator (most of Gruden's experience is not in the NFL .. Zorn had none) is "the reason why our organization is a league-wide joke."

[drowland]

I'm not for firing a coach after 1 year, but I'm indifferent on Gruden.  I brought up the Cleveland example because I see a lot of similarities between the situations. Gruden and Chudzinski have similar styles with how they handled their teams.  The bottom line with Chud was the team didn't show improvement late in the season losing like 11 games in a row.  There was also some friction between Chud and the FO.  They fired Chud and then Haslem came back and fired Lombardi and Banner because he saw a toxic environment where no coach could survive.  Haslem was minority owner of the Steelers and saw how the Rooney's did it.  So he hired a hard nosed defensive HC and promoted Ray Farmer to GM who shares the same beliefs as the HC.  They're trying to form an identity and look to be off to a good start in just their first year.  

 

With Gruden, no one can look at this team right now and say they're better or as good as they were in September.  If anything they have regressed and Gruden looks over his head.  Not sure if there's any friction between Gruden and Allen.  But with a possible top 5 pick and a lot of cap space I'd rather Snyder make a move now.  But that would include getting rid of Allen or at least removing him from personnel.  

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

So you're saying sitting RGIII made the team better?

 

*I* Say YES! Absolutely...there is a big difference between running around clueless taking 10-15 yard sacks and someone HANGING in having dropped to the correct depth..making the reads and just NOT having the time.

 

McCoy was a real WARRIOR eyes down field..RG3 was spinning around like a washing machine...

 

McCoy didn't deliver..but he wasn't a lost soul out there...he just got beat up

[HogHeaven84]

-Benches RG3 instead of playing to his strengths (See San Fran and Seattle).

 

 

 

These are two completely different scenarios....and hardly analogous.  I would make the the argument that Kaepernick, actually kinda sucks right now, and hasn't done anything special this year...not to mention he's severely regressed(like another QB we know). So is that his fault...or his head coach's??   Seriously...2TD's and 5 INT's the last three games...and he's struggling to read defenses.  I would actually be more comfortable with the guy they let go for him.  Say what you will about Alex Smith's inability to push the ball down the field...but he doesn't turn the ball over and he's a hell of a lot more consistent.  Pair him with a decent running game and a solid defense and you can contend year after year.  

[Taylor703]

*I* Say YES! Absolutely...there is a big difference between running around clueless taking 10-15 yard sacks and someone HANGING in having dropped to the correct depth..making the reads and just NOT having the time.

McCoy was a real WARRIOR eyes down field..RG3 was spinning around like a washing machine...

McCoy didn't deliver..but he wasn't a lost soul out there...he just got beat up

McCoy got sacked 6 times, threw two picks and we didn't score a point. He was terrible.

[pjfootballer]

3. Fire Sean McVay - I'd love to keep a 28 year old prodigy on staff, but the offense, particularly the TE position has been a mess all year. I know that we seen some nice production in games from Paul and Reed, but if you look more closely they are the weakest unit by far. Poor blocking, poor play recognition and seemingly not understanding of the pass protection.

I think back to the press conference when Gruden was introduced and the question of whether McVay was going to elevated to OC. Gruden wasn't 100% about it. A head coach should be 100% confident in his OC, even if he's the one calling plays.

McVay isn't the TEs coach. Wes Phillips is our TE coach. Not sure what you are getting at. You're all over the place.

[Land of Crushed Dreams]

At this point, I would not be disappointed if we dumped Gruden at the end of this year. He seems to be in way over his head and he has done little to give me hope that things will get better with time. The Skins played some awful football in 2013, yet we actually seem to be worse off this year. Although there has been some improvement on special teams (which is not saying much), I would argue that our defense is the same or worse and our offense looks worse too (at least we could run the ball last year). Not a whole lot to be excited about in terms of next season. Add in the undisciplined play, his gaffes in the media, his failures with all 3 QBs, the regression in play from the entire team over the course of this season, the continued weekly media leaks, and his general lack of answers on how to turn things around; it all seems to point to the fact that Gruden has bitten off more than he can chew. I concede that with better talent and a new DC, maybe Gruden could turn things around, but I have seen very little to indicate that positive changes are on the horizon at the moment. I also haven't seen any indication that Gruden can effectively manage the current losing culture within the organization and the continued incompetence from the folks in the front office. If we do decide to get rid of Gruden, we better make a move for a new GM as well, otherwise, we will likely be holding the same conversation in 1 or 2 years.  

[profusion]

If Snyder doesn't dump Allen and hire a real football man to run the team unhindered by owner interference, then ultimately it doesn't matter when or if Gruden gets fired. The results with the next coach wouldn't be any better.

[Rufus T Firefly]

It would be unbelievably awesome if we could set the simple ground rule that someone can say that Gruden has been a bad coach, or that he should be let go without it meaning that they have to think Snyder is a great owner, or allen a great GM or even Griffin is a great QB. It's actually entirely possible to think all 4 of them are doing badly.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

The best case scenario we might get with all people currently in place:

Allen fires Gruden and entire coaching staff. Allen moves to team VP. Allen handles PR events and consults on contracts/cap with GM.

AJ Smith is given the GM role and told to build the scouting dept and team as he sees for.

AJ Smith conducts the head coach search and with input from head coach, finds all assistant coaches etc.

Even that, at this point is a total pipe dream, unfortunately

[JEBSKINS]

As I said in the game day thread, Jay Gruden has turned into Jim Zorn faster than Jim Zorn turned into Jim Zorn .

The best case scenario we might get with all people currently in place:

Allen fires Gruden and entire coaching staff. Allen moves to team VP. Allen handles PR events and consults on contracts/cap with GM.

AJ Smith is given the GM role and told to build the scouting dept and team as he sees for.

AJ Smith conducts the head coach search and with input from head coach, finds all assistant coaches etc.

Even that, at this point is a total pipe dream, unfortunately

Wake me up if this happens.

[The Wicked Wop]

Well, if Gruden is as incompetent as you claim, he hired the guy (Allen) who hired such an incompetent fool.

 

Also, by all accounts this season (via media and Gruden himself), he's totally involved with Allen in everything they do, which is NOT what an owner should be doing.

 

That should be enough, but then you throw in all the talk of him undermining the authority on the team, which should reside exclusively with the HC, by enabling his "superstars"... well, yeah. I think enough said.

If you've read nearly all of my prior posts on the subject you'd actually see I was all for Gruden getting more time but I'm getting all the wrong feels about this guy now. I think he's a great football talker much like his brother where you feel energized by the guy. He had a great track record with Dalton getting to the playoffs............the problem is the HC is something else entirely and it just simply doesn't look like he can handle it. He was brought here to improve things and keep it drama free.......the exact opposite is true.

To see him flip flop on positions, not smart enough to keep your RG3 thoughts to himself, and to sell us a bill of goods that we're taking what we did right last year which was run the ball and improve on it......especially with more weapons and to do nothing of the sort.

Also news flash HC's and GM's talk all the time, and if your going to bench the "franchise QB" don't think he should inform his superiors? That and Allen and Snyder didn't override his decision they said this is a coaching decision which appears consistent with how they have dealt with these matters in the past couple of years.

[TSO]

^^ Again, my point is you're focusing too heavily on one guy thinking a change will make a difference. It won't. I'm sorry. If you haven't realized that by now as a skins fan then God help you.

If every criticism you have here about Gruden is true (which is questionable in and of itself since there's probably a ton happening behind the scenes we don't see that would change our perceptions), then who is to blame most here? The ones who hired this incompetent idiot (according to you) or the incompetent idiot?

If you like to overlook causes and focus on effects, I guess I know your answer. I like to focus on causes. I think that's much more sensical.

[s0crates]

I hate to say it, but I think our best option is to keep Gruden for another year, and this is from the guy who said Gruden isn't smart enough to pour pee out of a boot yesterday.  

 

This is by no means an endorsement of Gruden, but I just think we don't have any other options at this point.  If you bail on Gruden after one season, given the way things went down with Shanny, I think you would have a hard time finding a decent coach to come work here.

 

I could justify showing Gruden the door, believe me, but before I do, it would be prudent to ask: What is our plan then?  

 

I only bring this up because I'm having a hard time imagining us finding a great coach if we kick Gruden to the curb after one season. Imagine the (not entirely undeserved) perception: Impatient owner, coach-killing quarterback, losing culture, racist mascot, media vultures, etc.  I don't think the hall of famers will be lining up.

 

We've cast our lot with Griffin and Gruden, and the only thing left for us to do is ride with them for a little while.  I'm not betting on it by any means, but I sure hope they can get their **** together.

 

The only way to dissuade me here is to offer a realistic alternative for next season, and I got news for you, Bill Cowher wouldn't take this job, and I doubt Art Briles wants it either.