The case for firing Gruden ASAP

[SkinsHokieFan]

 

 

I swear. No joke. If Snyder fires Gruden and continues to coddle RG3 i'm done with this team. Emotionally I'm half way out the door already.

 

To me this isn't about coddling RG3.

 

To me its about the lack of accountability with everyone else (why are Chester and Luoavo starting?), the horrific performance on D, the penalties (we lead the NFL in special teams penalties) and lately the complete lack of motivation. Oh and talking so much to the media that it helped spark the biggest fire storm in the NFL.

 

I can give him another year, but this year has been a total debacle, even with the roster issues

[skinfan2k]

Just so you all know, Gruden is trying to build an NFL team around Colt McCoy. Let that sink in for a few. 

 

you mean like Shanny who said that about John Beck??

[Brokenstriker]

To me this isn't about coddling RG3.

 

To me its about the lack of accountability with everyone else (why are Chester and Luoavo starting?), the horrific performance on D, the penalties (we lead the NFL in special teams penalties) and lately the complete lack of motivation. Oh and talking so much to the media that it helped spark the biggest fire storm in the NFL.

 

I can give him another year, but this year has been a total debacle, even with the roster issues

you have to consider the real-world probability that ... if the back-ups were good enough Chester and Luovao would be sitting.  No coach would sit better players and play bad players.  They are playing because the talent on this roster is TERRIBLE, McRib was a mistake and Long quite understandably needs time and would be ruined if he was thrown to the wolves (or he sucks too ... don't know).

 

The personnel on this roster are not on the coach ... he's not the GM.  The Coach has to work with what he has to work with ... why start McCoy .. .because he sucks less than the other two ... why start Clark ... same answer ... repeat as necessary

[Mad Mike]

Just so you all know, Gruden is trying to build an NFL team around Colt McCoy. Let that sink in for a few. 

 

NO. HE IS NOT.

 

He's trying to get through this season with the best guy he has and since RG3 cant seem to run the most basic offense he is left with Colt. Let THAT sink in.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Again, outside of the QB, this coach has many issues. The refreshing honesty has blown up in his face and the org. The choices of who is starting are questionable. Having such a young staff on O is questionable. The discipline/motivation/details aren't showing up. Many players on O seemed to have regressed 

[Brokenstriker]

Many players on O seemed to have regressed 

who specifically has regressed?

[SkinsHokieFan]

who specifically has regressed?

 

The QB's (all 3 of them)

 

The running game without Griffin playing.

 

Garcon's production 

 

Roberts has been MIA for weeks

 

Even TW has been playing poorly (and yes I understand his injury issues right now)

 

Even better, where is the team improved today then it was in September? Perhaps blocked punts on special teams? 

[Mad Mike]

who specifically has regressed?

 

You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

This team sucked last year. RG3 sucked last year. Who exactly is it that supposedly regressed and how is their regression Gruden's fault?

 

And if Gruden is such a bad coach, how did we put 45 points on the Giants with Cousins? The thing is we have seen what this offense can do when it is running right. Not to give Gruden more time to fix this team now that he really knows the problems are would be incredibly short sighted and stupid.

[SkinsHokieFan]

You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

This team sucked last year. RG3 sucked last year. Who exactly is it that supposedly regressed and how is their regression Gruden's fault?

 

And if Gruden is such a bad coach, how did we put 45 points on the Giants with Cousins? The thing is we have seen what this offense can do when it is running right. Not to give Gruden more time to fix this team now that he really knows the problems are would be incredibly short sighted and stupid.

 

The Giants put 45 on US with Cousins throwing pick after pick.

 

The more any of our QB's played, the worse they got.

 

Again, independent of roster/QB sucks issues, the team has not improved in any sense at all. I guess the historically bad special teams from last year finally found a game where they decided to take no penalties. Other then that, I dunno.

 

I am willing to give the guy another year as its obvious he had no clue what he was getting into by coming to Washington. But Gruden's performance has not been good

[Brokenstriker]

The QB's (all 3 of them)

 

The running game without Griffin playing.

 

Garcon's production 

 

Roberts has been MIA for weeks

 

Even TW has been playing poorly (and yes I understand his injury issues right now)

 

Even better, where is the team improved today then it was in September? Perhaps blocked punts on special teams? 

QB ... Griffin SUCKED last season and still does (not regression), Cousins was ineffective last season but really made the offense work if not for the INTs (improvement)

 

running game ... Morris still runs hard and hits the hole ... the O line sucks and did last year and without any hint of a passing game without Cousins the D is keying on the run ... Morris isn't regressing ... the O line still sucks ... not regression

 

Garcon doesn't throw the ball to himself ... he still gets open and he still makes clutch catches ... ref to the QB situation and O line situation

 

see above re: Roberts

 

TW is injured and he played well when he wasn't

 

improvements ... Paul as a receiving TE, Helu is much more effective than he was, beating the div leader on the road with the #3QB, Breeland, Robinson, Kerrigan all better

 

STs sucked last season and suck again ... but they might be better on coverage than they were and the punter is awesome

The Giants put 45 on US with Cousins throwing pick after pick.

 

Cousins is effectively a rookie ... he's never been "the" QB in camp/preseason and he's rarely been "the" QB for any game prep ... i.e., most of the coaching is aimed at the other guy and not him over his brief career.  His numbers compare well with some legit star QBs ... ref. Troy Aikman's first season and reconsider damning a rookie QB who make the offense work but threw a bunch of INTs.

[mammajamma]

curious as to why i havent seen one mcvay-bashing on here. when the defense is bad, its on haz, when the offense is bad, its on jay. if mcvay is in charge of the offense, arent those issues (poor o-line play, poor blocking schemes, etc) ultimately on him?

[Brokenstriker]

curious as to why i havent seen one mcvay-bashing on here. when the defense is bad, its on haz, when the offense is bad, its on jay. if mcvay is in charge of the offense, arent those issues (poor o-line play, poor blocking schemes, etc) ultimately on him?

don't confuse the villagers ... they can only burn one witch at a time

[SkinsHokieFan]

QB ... Griffin SUCKED last season and still does (not regression), Cousins was ineffective last season but really made the offense work if not for the INTs (improvement)

 

running game ... Morris still runs hard and hits the hole ... the O line sucks and did last year and without any hint of a passing game without Cousins the D is keying on the run ... Morris isn't regressing ... the O line still sucks ... not regression

 

Garcon doesn't throw the ball to himself ... he still gets open and he still makes clutch catches ... ref to the QB situation and O line situation

 

see above re: Roberts

 

TW is injured and he played well when he wasn't

 

improvements ... Paul as a receiving TE, Helu is much more effective than he was, beating the div leader on the road with the #3QB, Breeland, Robinson, Kerrigan all better

 

STs sucked last season and suck again ... but they might be better on coverage than they were and the punter is awesome

Cousins is effectively a rookie ... he's never been "the" QB in camp/preseason and he's rarely been "the" QB for any game prep ... i.e., most of the coaching is aimed at the other guy and not him over his brief career.  His numbers compare well with some legit star QBs ... ref. Troy Aikman's first season and reconsider damning a rookie QB who make the offense work but threw a bunch of INTs.

 

Griffin was not nearly this awful last year. He looked fine in the Minny game and then just got significantly worse from that point forward. 

 

Cousins again moved the ball but threw horrific picks. No improvement and his play got worse the more he played

 

Alf again has no room without Griffin. O-line play seems to only work running the ball with Griffin and passing with Kirk (since Kirk just throws up INTs quickly). Colt took 6 sacks against the Rams

 

As for D, Kerrigan is having a terrific year, Robinson has played well and Breeland excellent for a rookie 4th rounder. The rest of the D is awful

 

Overall, from an HC perspective, the team has lacked discipline all year (see some awful penalties) and besides Griffin there has been very little accountablity. Gruden created a firestorm post Tampa game and it has only gotten worse.

 

I would still give him another year, but its not looking good at all. 

 

The questions are this with Gruden (from a head coach perspective, I do actually like his schemes)

 

1) Can he discipline?

 

2) Can he motivate? 

 

3) Can he adjust his scheme to fit his players?

 

4) Is he a leader that believes in what he is doing and can get the team to buy into it?

 

Right now 1 and 2 are suspect, 3 I have doubts on and his woe is me Jim Zornesque PC's the last 2 weeks give me pause on 4. 

[Veretax]

If Allen and Snayder  want to send a real message.  Start RG3 sunday.... If he plays poorly cut him on Monday.   Start Cousins the next sunday, if he looks poor fire Gruden on Tuesday.

[Brokenstriker]

Griffin was not nearly this awful last year. He looked fine in the Minny game and then just got significantly worse from that point forward. 

 

Minn was clearly his best game ... but consider that he had two game winning drive opportunities and blew it ... also consider that he has 4+ yards of clear running room to keep that last drive alive and did two really bad things ... he threw a lame duck pass into the ground to an open receiver ... and he refused to run for the first down.  You can call that fine if you want to ... I don't.  That game was there to be won ... as was the Tampa Bay game as well as the Texans game and its entirely on him even considering how bad the Redskins are.  If he executes the game plan, runs the plays as designed ... he has 3 wins and the love and adoration of the fans.  Gruden was a pretty good QB but that's not his job any more ... he put his QB in position to win and the QB lost.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Minn was clearly his best game ... but consider that he had two game winning drive opportunities and blew it ... also consider that he has 4+ yards of clear running room to keep that last drive alive and did two really bad things ... he threw a lame duck pass into the ground to an open receiver ... and he refused to run for the first down.  You can call that fine if you want to ... I don't.  That game was there to be won ... as was the Tampa Bay game as well as the Texans game and its entirely on him even considering how bad the Redskins are.  If he executes the game plan, runs the plays as designed ... he has 3 wins and the love and adoration of the fans.  Gruden was a pretty good QB but that's not his job any more ... he put his QB in position to win and the QB lost.

 

So instead of 3-10 we are 5-8? Maybe? 

 

The Minny game should have been won by the D. The Texans game I give you. 

 

The home debacles vs the Giants and Rams (unprepared both times) and Cousins awful regression are big issues with coaching. 

 

When Gruden talks about pro players motivating themselves, it sounds like he doesn't understand the role of HC and what it entails. Being able to call the plays you want and design great game plans aren't it. Its a part of it but not enough for a HC

[Rufus T Firefly]

Honestly, the reason that I thought any friendship coorilation was BS cause of what Jay said to "Moving the Chains" after the zero coverage/Mohamad Sanu TD pass when they beat us in 2012.

 

I know we're boys, but come on... this is my chance.

 

But if he was THAT sold on Haz I think he would've said something initially, also.

 

I'd give him the benefit of the doubt on that.  Plus we're the Redskins.  So 3 - 1 Jay.

I don't know what you mean about him not saying something about Haslett. One of the first things he said on being hired was that he wanted Has to get an extension.

 

If Allen had decided on Gruden before the interview process started (as seems painfully obvious to me), or even if he had just considered Gruden his top candidate,  then I'm not sure why people think Haslett being retained until Gruden was hired a sign that Allen was going to keep Haslett regardless. It would seem a pretty easy conclusion that keeping Haslett was about Gruden wanting him, not Allen wanting him. I don't really see why people refuse to accept that.

[DC9]

I don't know what you mean about him not saying something about Haslett. One of the first things he said on being hired was that he wanted Has to get an extension.

 

If Allen had decided on Gruden before the interview process started (as seems painfully obvious to me), or even if he had just considered Gruden his top candidate,  then I'm not sure why people think Haslett being retained until Gruden was hired a sign that Allen was going to keep Haslett regardless. It would seem a pretty easy conclusion that keeping Haslett was about Gruden wanting him, not Allen wanting him. I don't really see why people refuse to accept that.

 

See he never said he wanted Haz to get extended.  He said something like "Haz only has one year left on his deal" and "I'll talk to Bruce about that".  At least from what I read and remember.

 

But I'm particular about words cause I work in the legal world, so essentially Gruden said nothing.

[Brokenstriker]

So instead of 3-10 we are 5-8? Maybe? 

 

The Minny game should have been won by the D. The Texans game I give you. 

 

The home debacles vs the Giants and Rams (unprepared both times) and Cousins awful regression are big issues with coaching. 

 

When Gruden talks about pro players motivating themselves, it sounds like he doesn't understand the role of HC and what it entails. Being able to call the plays you want and design great game plans aren't it. Its a part of it but not enough for a HC

yup

 

D could have played better ... but RG3 still had 2 ops to win it

 

Cousins got ~ 2 weeks of starting QB prep as compared to 2+ months that Griffin got this season alone ... it wasn't good but its not necessarily an indication of much other than rookie back-up QB

 

Gruden has 10 years of experience motivating players as a HC and 10 playoff seasons to go along with this ... he also has 3 years of experience motivating players as an NFL OC ... and presumably about 10 years as a top tier NCAA and minor league starting QB ... I'm willing to bet he knows how to motivate more than I am willing to assume he has no clue

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

We essentially agree here that Bruce is mainly at fault. I'd also say Dan is even more at fault, especially with how often we hear he's involved now in everything with Bruce, never mind that he just handed him the GM title when he had no business assuming that role. Last season everyone in the organization was making it super clear that Dan wasn't involved at all and now we're hearing the complete opposite, so I'm not going to be fooled anymore. He's directly involved and probably has been much more than we think the last how many years. 

 

I'll post my list of problems (in order of significance) one more time, and you tell me if you think it's wrong and why. Otherwise, shouldn't the focus here on this board be proportionate to it? Why isn't it? Why are we getting stuck on this same old cycle and refusing to learn?

 

1- Dan Snyder

2- Dan Snyder

3- Dan Snyder

4- Bruce Allen as GM

5- Scouting Department

6- Jim Haslett

7- Player personnel

8- Rest of the coaches, including Gruden

 

IMO it all goes back to the bottom line:

 

A.  Is Dan going to sell the team?  Very unlikely

 

B.  Will Bruce Allen voluntarily give up his GM title-role.  Very unlikely

 

C.  If there is a media-fan outcry about Bruce like there was years ago about Vinny -- which there is some beginnings of now -- and the upshot is Dan sees Bruce as having baggage that's affecting him, he'd likely be more inclined to remove him and hopefully put a real football guy in place.

 

D. Since to me C is the one realistic shot we got.  Then I don't see how the back Jay crowd no matter what accomplishes that.  Jay and Bruce are tied tightly.  If Jay flames out, it reflects very poorly on Bruce.  If you recall Danny used the excuse of Vinny picked Zorn for why he fired Vinny. 

 

As for sports radio, let me explain what I mean by that.  On both sports stations just about every reporter and insider has a go just about every week with what they hear from their sources.  This team more than most airs their dirty laundry where issues get out to media sources, and we hear plenty of stuff on different topics.   Am a bit of a media hound partly because my business centers to a degree around the media and I work from home, so I keep the radio on all day.  Do I hear conflicting reports on different subjects, sure.  Our RG3 debates for example, there is plenty of info to go around to support both sides of conflicting opinions.  But when it comes to Halsett, I've heard, read, seen -- zero, zip, nada from anybody, not from an insider, reporter, even some rag speculating that Haslett was foisted on Jay.  Not only that but plenty of the info is pointed in the exact direction that I put forth.  Yeah I could be wrong.  But if we end up finding out that Jay didn't want Haslett, it would be stunning to me because no one that I've noticed who has sources with the team is on that point or even hinted at it.  

[DC9]

It’s not clear what that would mean to the Redskins’ apparent plan to retain current defensive coordinator Jim Haslett. Multiple people close to the situation repeatedly have said since Gruden was hired that the Redskins intend to keep Haslett and secondary coach Raheem Morris.

Both have ties to Gruden. Haslett worked with Gruden in the United Football League and Morris worked with him with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

A shuffling of job titles might be possible.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2014/01/14/paul-guenther-bengals-linebackers-coach-is-possible-candidate-for-redskins-staff/

[SkinsHokieFan]

 

 

Gruden has 10 years of experience motivating players as a HC and 10 playoff seasons to go along with this ... he also has 3 years of experience motivating players as an NFL OC ... and presumably about 10 years as a top tier NCAA and minor league starting QB ... I'm willing to bet he knows how to motivate more than I am willing to assume he has no clue

 

HC in Arena league? That is nice, I guess, but as you say only 3 years in the NFL. And the team doesn't look very motivated and his only comment has been "if you can't get motivated you might need new players"

 

How he has done on the 4 questions I have of head coaches is subpar. The team isn't disciplined. They are not motivated. His scheme hasn't necessarily fit the players. And are the players buying what he is selling? 

 

I will say this. I would need to see a big improvement in those 4 areas (discipline/motivation/adjustments to players/players buying in) next season even if the record doesn't improve.

 

In year 1 of Gibbs 2.0 and Marty you could feel good in December because the team appeared to be motivated and improving. There is no feeling like that right now. It is much more the last days of Zorn

[Brokenstriker]

... so essentially Gruden said nothing.

perfect candidate for management and HC pressers

[DC9]

Also didn't know McVay worked for Jay in Tampa and the UFL - http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2014/01/14/as-expected-mcvay-finalizes-deal-to-be-redskins-offensive-coordinator/

 

 

Redskins players last week praised McVay for his knowledge and communication skills. They expressed confidence in his ability to handle the job of offensive coordinator. People around the league view McVay, who worked with Gruden both for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the UFL’s Florida Tuskers, as a rising star in the coaching ranks.

 

[Brokenstriker]

HC in Arena league? That is nice, I guess, but as you say only 3 years in the NFL. And the team doesn't look very motivated and his only comment has been "if you can't get motivated you might need new players"

 

How he has done on the 4 questions I have of head coaches is subpar. The team isn't disciplined. They are not motivated. His scheme hasn't necessarily fit the players. And are the players buying what he is selling? 

Gibbs ... 3 years as an OC ... no HC experience at all at any level until he got the Redskins job

 

minor league ... same functions

 

the RG3 fit is a scheme RG3 won't run

the Morris fit is a scheme that requires RG3 to run the scheme he won't run ... and while it delivered big chuncks of yards it didn't move the chains

the scheme Gruden put in place for Cousins seemed to fit everyone on offense ... all 11+ pretty well and was effective (Cousins' INTs are on Cousins not the  scheme)

common factor in the root issue ... ? ... I don't think its the coach's schemes