The case for firing Gruden ASAP

[SkinsHokieFan]

 

common factor in the root issue ... ? ... I don't think its the coach's schemes

 

You are conflating scheme and head coach ability.

 

I am not as concerned about scheme (and I think Gruden has a good scheme but I think Kyle was better) but more so the areas a HC controls and has a major impact on. Gruden has not accomplished that, yet. He needs to improve in those areas

[Skinsinparadise]

on point ironically, just saw this

 

LOVERRO: Relationships at Redskins Park will make for a very messy divorce

 

That’s where Jay and Haslett connected. Haslett got the job as the head coach of the Florida Tuskers in the United Football League and hired Jay to be his offensive coordinator.

These connections begin with Bruce Allen, who was Jon’s general manager in Oakland and then was hired in Tampa to work with Jon after a falling out with then-GM Rich McKay.

“Bruce Allen is a great football mind and an even better person,” Jon said in a statement issued when Allen was hired to be the Redskins general manager in 2009. “His background and understanding of the Washington Redskins‘ tradition will be a huge asset to the Redskins. He is a leader and a great fit for this job. He’s a big reason why I had any success in coaching. I’m really happy for him and I wish him the best.”

Maybe this all started with Gruden’s father, Jim — who, from 1969 to 1972, worked as an assistant coach under John McVay at the University of Dayton. McVay is current Redskins offensive coordinator Sean McVay’s grandfather. There are other connections as well.

You get the picture? You think Mike and Kyle Shanahan was nepotism? The family tree at Redskins Park is a complicated one — the reason why firing anybody won’t be simple.

If Jay has to fired Haslett, he will be firing a mentor. If Allen has to fire Jay, he will be firing a close family friend who, let’s remember, he gave a remarkable five-year contract reportedly worth $20 million — remarkable in the sense that few first-time head coaches get that kind of guaranteed, long-term money.

“Once Jay’s interview was about three-quarters through, we knew he was the right guy,” Allen said upon hiring Jay in January.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/9/loverro-relationships-redskins-park-will-make-very/#ixzz3LRRBO69W 
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

[Rufus T Firefly]

See he never said he wanted Haz to get extended.  He said something like "Haz only has one year left on his deal" and "I'll talk to Bruce about that".  At least from what I read and remember.

 

But I'm particular about words cause I work in the legal world, so essentially Gruden said nothing.

What he said was:

“He has one year left on his contract,” Gruden told The Washington Post. “I’ll talk to Bruce [Allen, the team's general manager] and we’ll talk to [Haslett] and see what we can do there.

 

I'm not interested in lawyer-speak. We all know what he was saying. He had no reason to say anything about an extension, but chose to talk about it. That certainly doesn't follow the 'he didn't say anything initially' line you used above.

 

Nor does everything here:

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/4940/gruden-explains-decision-to-retain-haslett

[Aireskoi]

simple answer ... pissed off fans looking for a quick and available supposed fix

 

A/K/A ... a witch hunt

 

its easier and faster than waiting for the arrival ... even if masterfully done ... of:  3 - 4 quality starting O linemen; 1 quality ILB; 1 "true" NT; 1 - 2 quality pass rushing specialists; 2 quality CBs; 2 quality safeties; 1 decent kicker with the leg to stop the KO returns; 5 - 6 quality ST role players; 1 quality blocking TE; and, 1 quality veteran QB to either start or mentor a young QB ... not to mention some quality young back-ups to develop instead of throwing them to the wolves in desperate hope

 

that's at least 3 years of systematic roster recovery ... and by then there will be some other positions that need refreshing as well

 

OK man, you're hired.  Just run the team please.

 

I read it again...I'm tearing up.

[Rufus T Firefly]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2014/01/14/paul-guenther-bengals-linebackers-coach-is-possible-candidate-for-redskins-staff/

I'm not at all sure what point you're trying to make with those quotes.

[TSO]

IMO it all goes back to the bottom line:

 

A.  Is Dan going to sell the team?  Very unlikely

 

B.  Will Bruce Allen voluntarily give up his GM title-role.  Very unlikely

 

C.  If there is a media-fan outcry about Bruce like there was years ago about Vinny -- which there is some beginnings of now -- and the upshot is Dan sees Bruce as having baggage that's affecting him, he'd likely be more inclined to remove him and hopefully put a real football guy in place.

 

D. Since to me C is the one realistic shot we got.  Then I don't see how the back Jay crowd no matter what accomplishes that.  Jay and Bruce are tied tightly.  If Jay flames out, it reflects very poorly on Bruce.  If you recall Danny used the excuse of Vinny picked Zorn for why he fired Vinny. 

 

As for sports radio, let me explain what I mean by that.  .....

 

Fair enough, but I think you're undervaluing the importance of this board or even fan sentiment in general. Maybe I'm over-valuing it, but sometimes I swear Dan Snyder takes his marching orders from here, lol. The Jim Fassel episode was pretty crazy when you think about it. 

 

So I do think we can have an effect. If not directly through this board, then at the very least we can help influence the rest of the fan base as well as the media. We know media members frequent this site. We know a lot of us on here have branched out and become well known on twitter. If we all have the same consistent message I sincerely believe we can make it happen. The last thing Dan needs to hear is that we'd be satisfied, in any way, with a coaching change. That's a dream come true for him, even if he has to spend millions on these failed coaches, the fans falling for the marketing that comes with the hope of a new coach keeps the profits soaring.        

[DC9]

What he said was:

I'm not interested in lawyer-speak. We all know what he was saying. He had no reason to say anything about an extension, but chose to talk about it. That certainly doesn't follow the 'he didn't say anything initially' line you used above.

 

Nor does everything here:

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/4940/gruden-explains-decision-to-retain-haslett

 

Actually - it's almost exactly what I summarized... and it says nothing.  It implies that he wants to re-sign him.

 

If you pay attention to what is said and how things are said it gives you more of a key of what exactly happens or is going to happen.

[The Wicked Wop]

simple answer ... pissed off fans looking for a quick and available supposed fix

 

A/K/A ... a witch hunt

 

its easier and faster than waiting for the arrival ... even if masterfully done ... of:  3 - 4 quality starting O linemen; 1 quality ILB; 1 "true" NT; 1 - 2 quality pass rushing specialists; 2 quality CBs; 2 quality safeties; 1 decent kicker with the leg to stop the KO returns; 5 - 6 quality ST role players; 1 quality blocking TE; and, 1 quality veteran QB to either start or mentor a young QB ... not to mention some quality young back-ups to develop instead of throwing them to the wolves in desperate hope

 

that's at least 3 years of systematic roster recovery ... and by then there will be some other positions that need refreshing as well

Again 3 o-lineman, 2 corners, 2 safties and your fielding a competetive team. Even with the QB'S we have, all you have to do is know how to use them........so make your system fit them, not the other way around. The team has the picks and cap room to make all this happen........but do they have the COACHES? I say no, others say yes, but this whole game and saga are far easier to fix then people are making it out to be.

[DC9]

I'm not at all sure what point you're trying to make with those quotes.

 

Just that this was his plan.

 

Look, you have a right to believe what you want. 

 

The way I look at it (at worst) is Haz and Jay are boys, or at least worked together.  That's established.  But if Haz wasn't already here do you think that Jay pulls the trigger and brings him in or do you think Bruce saying "he's already got one year he owes us, why not?" is more likely?

 

I think Jay tries to go another route.

[Boss_Hogg]

If you fire Jay then you need to fire all of his boys. 

 

- Bruce Allen

- Haslett

- Ike Hilliard

- McVay

- Raheem,

- And that kid that runs around on the sideline during games (I'm assuming that's Jay's son but weirder things have happened with this franchise)

[Rufus T Firefly]

Just that this was his plan.

 

Look, you have a right to believe what you want. 

 

The way I look at it (at worst) is Haz and Jay are boys, or at least worked together.  That's established.  But if Haz wasn't already here do you think that Jay pulls the trigger and brings him in or do you think Bruce saying "he's already got one year he owes us, why not?" is more likely?

 

I think Jay tries to go another route.

Who's plan? You linked to two quotes about Haslett being retained by Gruden. I still don't see what you think that shows.

 

The "he's already signed" so that's why Allen wanted him retained line is, once again, nothing but a theory and one that doesn't make much sense. After they guaranteed Gruden about 5 mil more than a coach with his qualifications would normally get, they then hampered that investment  with coaches not of his choosing because they were concerned about the 1 mil or so Has was due? I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why I should even begin to believe that.

 

And guessing that Gruden wouldn't have kept Haslett if he wasn't already here is not only something you seem to pulling from nowhere, but also pretty irrelevant.

If you fire Jay then you need to fire all of his boys. 

 

- Bruce Allen

- Haslett

- Ike Hilliard

- McVay

- Raheem,

- And that kid that runs around on the sideline during games (I'm assuming that's Jay's son but weirder things have happened with this franchise)

Where do I sign? (and not just because I love the idea of firing children)

[Red_dawg_one]

I think Gruden (speculation on my part) had different ideas of how this organization was ran/operated, and after a full season is seeing that it is a circus, ran by a bunch of clowns...

so i could absolutely see him trying to get out of this mess....

Also as a coach, he is going to defend his coordinator (even if he doesnt believe it) because he knows piling on to the media crap storm isnt going to help.

[DC9]

Who's plan? You linked to two quotes about Haslett being retained by Gruden. I still don't see what you think that shows.

 

The "he's already signed" so that's why Allen wanted him retained line is, once again, nothing but a theory and one that doesn't make much sense. After they guaranteed Gruden about 5 mil more than a coach with his qualifications would normally get, they then hampered that investment  with coaches not of his choosing because they were concerned about the 1 mil or so Has was due? I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why I should even begin to believe that.

 

And guessing that Gruden wouldn't have kept Haslett if he wasn't already here is not only something you seem to pulling from nowhere, but also pretty irrelevant.

 

I linked that he planned on having Guenther as his DC.

 

It's not irrelevant that Haz was here.  Cause you are saying that Haz was Gruden's choice. 

 

So you think that Gruden goes and gets Haz on his own if Haz was on the street and had no connection with the Redskins?

If you fire Jay then you need to fire all of his boys. 

 

- Bruce Allen

- Haslett

- Ike Hilliard

- McVay

- Raheem,

- And that kid that runs around on the sideline during games (I'm assuming that's Jay's son but weirder things have happened with this franchise)

 

If you fire one you need to fire all of them.  Two coaches per GM.  That's the norm.

[Red_dawg_one]

Gruden is the chief clown in charge he makes all the coaching staff decisions

he has a rookie offensive coordinator..a clueless DC And he's horrible at head coaching..enuff said

[Brokenstriker]

You are conflating scheme and head coach ability.

 

I am not as concerned about scheme (and I think Gruden has a good scheme but I think Kyle was better) but more so the areas a HC controls and has a major impact on. Gruden has not accomplished that, yet. He needs to improve in those areas

agreed ... the backs coach or approach needs to get serious or changed ... same for the TE's ... can't speak to the defense but I'm sure there are position coaching issues ... 

 

I'd like to see him upgrade ... and I'd like to see him assert control over a new DC and ST coach

Gruden is the chief clown in charge he makes all the coaching staff decisions

he has a rookie offensive coordinator..a clueless DC And he's horrible at head coaching..enuff said

pretty confident that the DC wasn't really his choice

OK man, you're hired.  Just run the team please.

 

I read it again...I'm tearing up.

I am a licenced coach ... from a long line of coaches ... but I haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn in awhile

[Rufus T Firefly]

I linked that he planned on having Guenther as his DC.

 

You didn't, actually. You linked to an article saying they wanted to talk to him about a staff position and one person guessed that he could be in consideration for DC. I have seen plenty to indicate that he wanted to talk to Guenther, but never anything that really showed it was for the DC spot, Which wouldn't matter anyway, because if Guenther had been his first choice, it doesn't mean he didm't choose Haslett when he knew that wash't an option.

 

It's not irrelevant that Haz was here.  Cause you are saying that Haz was Gruden's choice. 

It is irrelevant, because he both could have chosen to retain him (as he clearly did, imo) and whether he would have gone out and hired him if he wash't already here doesn't actually have anything to do with that.

 So you think that Gruden goes and gets Haz on his own if Haz was on the street and had no connection with the Redskins?

I don't know. All I have to base the answer to that question on is that he had a longstanding relationship with him, retained him here, spoke of wanting him to have a congract extension, spoke of how the problems with the Redskins D weren't his fault and what a great coach he is. Not sure why I would assume he wouldn't have gone out and hired him.

[hitmandm]

The only reason we want to keep Jay Gruden is due to contract, appearance (it looks bad) and appearance of stability.

 

Those are silly reasons. The reasons to fire him is that he doesn't possess the skills to be a HC in the NFL. His team is overmatched and under coached. Theyre undisciplined and don't have a clue what to do. He is a drama queen who adds to the sense of instability by switching QBs every few games. He bashes RG3, but then he benches him and the team looks worse. This guy is Arena League. Time to get an NFL calibre coach.

[Skinsinparadise]

Fair enough, but I think you're undervaluing the importance of this board or even fan sentiment in general. Maybe I'm over-valuing it, but sometimes I swear Dan Snyder takes his marching orders from here, lol. The Jim Fassel episode was pretty crazy when you think about it. 

 

So I do think we can have an effect. If not directly through this board, then at the very least we can help influence the rest of the fan base as well as the media. We know media members frequent this site. We know a lot of us on here have branched out and become well known on twitter. If we all have the same consistent message I sincerely believe we can make it happen. The last thing Dan needs to hear is that we'd be satisfied, in any way, with a coaching change. That's a dream come true for him, even if he has to spend millions on these failed coaches, the fans falling for the marketing that comes with the hope of a new coach keeps the profits soaring.        

 

Am ok with that.  I don't know too many people here who want Jay to go but like Bruce.  I don't know if you read Thom Loverro's article which I posted on here and has its own thread now too -- it gets into Bruce's ties with Jay in a much deeper way than I did, along with all the other nepotism relationships in play.    To me the whole thing looks like a tangled mess.  And it outlines very well how Bruce cannot separate himself from this stuff and even get into how Bruce was sold on Jay before the interview was even over.

 

I actually don't have a strong opinion one way or another about whether Jay needs to stay or go.  Overall, I don't like what I've seen so far but am ok with those saying he needs another year.  But I do strongly believe that Jay being under heat actually hurts Bruce a lot more then helps him.  

 

Is Jay going to push for someone else to run the football operation?  That would be bizarre and very unlikely considering the deep ties Jay and Bruce's families have and not to mention Bruce hired him.    Jay being canned IMO is the best shot to replace Bruce.   And for further thoughts on it, if you haven't read Loverro's article, I'd take a look.  

 

As for us fans, IMO we should have a focus that we have a shot at and I am not so sure Danny would sell the team because some of us asks him to do so but if we direct it specifically by saying look it seems more important for him to hire a buddy-crony to run the FO versus a real football personnel guy, and we are sick of it -- maybe we got a shot.  The dump Cerrato campaign and I sent a letter on this along with others seemed to have an impact.  

[Brokenstriker]

Again 3 o-lineman, 2 corners, 2 safties and your fielding a competetive team. Even with the QB'S we have, all you have to do is know how to use them........so make your system fit them, not the other way around. The team has the picks and cap room to make all this happen........but do they have the COACHES? I say no, others say yes, but this whole game and saga are far easier to fix then people are making it out to be.

His system fits 2 of the 3 QBs, Cousins and McCoy, and its a system the 3rd QB, Griffin*, says he is good at (passer not a runner) and wants to play.  The system that fits Griffin, is a system that Griffin won't run.  So ... what are Gruden's options?  

 

Get better QBs? ... not a realistic option

 

Coach the INTs out of, and short term memory (put the last play in the past and move on) into Cousins? ... probably happening as we debate this

 

Coach "up" Griffin to be a passer? ... been doing that since he arrived and apparently its not working which is interesting since he's proven he can do that in the past but also consistent with some observations made by NFL QBs about Griffin's prospects in the NFL (re: Tarkenton's thrashing of Griffin) ... and I'm confident he had to PROVE it to Snyder and Allen that this has been tried thoroughly and competently ... and RG3 can't handle it ... or RG3 would still be the starter.

 

Play McCoy, let Cousins get more coaching before he returns as a starter and continue to see if Griffin will ever get it as an NFL passing QB?  ... that's what I think is happening and it makes a certain amount of sense.

 

If there is a system that "fits" RG3 ... that isn't the read-option and isn't exposing RG3 as a ball-carrier which he clearly doesn't want to be (and wouldn't last long if he was) ... what the heck is it?

 

(* Griffin .. the can't miss phenom with all the tools ... he can't make Gruden's playbook work?  Seriously ... maybe he doesn't have all the tools huh?)

 

as far as defensive fits ... yeah I don't think there's a fit for this bunch ... some of them should be required to get a ticket to these games instead of playing in them

[RandyHolt]

He couldn't even get his 4 years salary payout swinging gate correct. Truly a sign of a failure. 

 

He should have studied his mentor Zorn more closely. He would have learned that you have to take a delay of game penalty first, to show the defense and world "the fake", before actually attempting to run it.

 

Gruden is going through a tough time. Grude is getting Rude. 

[DC9]

You didn't, actually. You linked to an article saying they wanted to talk to him about a staff position and one person guessed that he could be in consideration for DC. I have seen plenty to indicate that he wanted to talk to Guenther, but never anything that really showed it was for the DC spot, Which wouldn't matter anyway, because if Guenther had been his first choice, it doesn't mean he didm't choose Haslett when he knew that wash't an option.

 

It is irrelevant, because he both could have chosen to retain him (as he clearly did, imo) and whether he would have gone out and hired him if he wash't already here doesn't actually have anything to do with that.

I don't know. All I have to base the answer to that question on is that he had a longstanding relationship with him, retained him here, spoke of wanting him to have a congract extension, spoke of how the problems with the Redskins D weren't his fault and what a great coach he is. Not sure why I would assume he wouldn't have gone out and hired him.

 

So you leap on an implication from Jay but you don't leap on a stronger implication from the press? 

 

Don't ever change, Rufus.

 

If you think that he would go out and get him, then that gives strength to your argument that he chose for Haz to stay here.  The more likely story is the same one I've posted SEVERAL times in this conversation.  He wanted Geunther, Zimmer was hired away, Geunther was promoted, he was stuck with Haz.

 

What pisses me off is that at the same time, my Avi left UCLA and then got stuck in Tennessee coaching LBs.  So I think something was up. 

 

But that is irrelevant ^^^.

 

What else is he supposed to say about a coach on his staff?  Is he not suppossed to instil confidence?  Is that really what you're basing this off of?

[Rufus T Firefly]

The only reason we want to keep Jay Gruden is due to contract, appearance (it looks bad) and appearance of stability.

 

Those are silly reasons. The reasons to fire him is that he doesn't possess the skills to be a HC in the NFL. His team is overmatched and under coached. Theyre undisciplined and don't have a clue what to do. He is a drama queen who adds to the sense of instability by switching QBs every few games. He bashes RG3, but then he benches him and the team looks worse. This guy is Arena League. Time to get an NFL calibre coach.

Yeah, I think him returning next year would be because of one or both of the following:

1) The amount of money he's owed.

2) The bad perception, both in the media and the league, of firing a coach in one year, especially with our recent history.

 

The opposing argument to number 1 is obviously that keeping him for another year would only really save 4 mil (guessing that is how the contract is structured, certainly has to be in that ballpark).

 

Number 2 really could be cured by tearing down the whole organization. Allen is gone,  scouting department fired, PR people fired, etc. New Pres, new GM, making a show of Snyder taking a bakseat, etc. Coupled with at least re-doing the stadium sod, if not the team name. Make it clear that it's new day here and no one is going to be blasting us for Gruden's firing.

[TSO]

As for us fans, IMO we should have a focus that we have a shot at and I am not so sure Danny would sell the team because some of us asks him to do so but if we direct it specifically by saying look it seems more important for him to hire a buddy-crony to run the FO versus a real football personnel guy, and we are sick of it -- maybe we got a shot.  The dump Cerrato campaign and I sent a letter on this along with others seemed to have an impact.  

 

I think if we all focus on the most important thing, which is for Dan to hire a reputable football GM who has had recent success evaluating player personnel, we can affect that change. That's what I'm worried about, that our focus on Gruden here will muddle that up. I just don't see a coaching change making much of a difference. Maybe a small positive change will occur with a better coach, but nothing lasting. And who knows if Gruden can't get better himself, you know?

 

So, yeah, for me anything else is not nearly as significant. I understand it's extremely unlikely that Dan would sell the team, so I'm not really focused on that. But I am completely honed in on getting a legit GM in here and allowing him to build the team as he sees fit (and make the decision on Gruden as well).         

[DC9]

Yeah, I think him returning next year would be because of one or both of the following:

1) The amount of money he's owed.

2) The bad perception, both in the media and the league, of firing a coach in one year, especially with our recent history.

 

The opposing argument to number 1 is obviously that keeping him for another year would only really save 4 mil (guessing that is how the contract is structured, certainly has to be in that ballpark).

 

Number 2 really could be cured by tearing down the whole organization. Allen is gone,  scouting department fired, PR people fired, etc. New Pres, new GM, making a show of Snyder taking a bakseat, etc. Coupled with at least re-doing the stadium sod, if not the team name. Make it clear that it's new day here and no one is going to be blasting us for Gruden's firing.

 

FWIW, they re-sodded FedEx this year.

[Skinsinparadise]

Fair enough, but I think you're undervaluing the importance of this board or even fan sentiment in general. Maybe I'm over-valuing it, but sometimes I swear Dan Snyder takes his marching orders from here, lol. The Jim Fassel episode was pretty crazy when you think about it. 

 

So I do think we can have an effect. If not directly through this board, then at the very least we can help influence the rest of the fan base as well as the media. W

 

To this point, if someone starts a Bruce needs to go thread.  I'll post on it.    Its not hard to interlink the problems people have with Jay with the man who hired him -- along with it will bring all the people together who are talking about hiring a new GM.    People seem fractured on several points relating to the team but I think they can all come together on this one.

 

1.  For most of those who don't like Jay -- they also don't like the dude who hired him, Bruce Allen in the role of GM.

 

2.  There are some who are backing Jay who seem to think in doing so its going against the FO.  While I disagree that there is this separation from Bruce and Jay -- it doesn't matter -- because those that see it that way will also rally to dumping Bruce Allen from the GM role.

 

you seem upset that the focus on Jay detracts from Bruce-Danny and I follow that point.  If so I think a thread could easily tie the two factions together.