The case for firing Gruden ASAP

[The Wicked Wop]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2294103-top-3-candidates-to-replace-jay-gruden-as-washington-redskins-head-coach

Top 3 Candidates to Replace Jay Gruden as Washington Redskins Head Coach

Kirby Lee-USA TODAY Sports

It occurred to me that simply stating Jay Gruden should be axed after just one year in charge of the Washington Redskins is a bit of a half-a-job approach to the problem in D.C.

If Gruden is to be one and done, taking his abrasive manner and questionable play-calling with him, then who should replace him? Fortunately, three candidates leap immediately to mind.

As fair warning, the three potential candidates listed here are scoured from the pro coordinator ranks. If you just rolled your eyes, no offence taken, I hardly blame you.

After all, Gruden was plucked from the same pool less than 12 months ago. But there was ample reason to believe he was the wrong hire to begin with.

For one thing, his reputation was cultivated during three seasons as offensive coordinator of the Cincinnati Bengals. That was strange because Gruden's units always lagged behind then-defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer's groups, which were the catalyst for Cincy's three-year dip of the toe in the playoff waters.

Second, Gruden became a (reasonably) hot commodity because of his work with young quarterback Andy Dalton. Yet there were legitimate questions about Dalton's supposed progress, not the least of which concerned his dire performances in the postseason.

Joe Robbins/Getty Images

Gruden's inability to work with Griffin has undermined his whole tenure.

There was also the not-so-small matter of Dalton being a classic pocket passer and Gruden's stated preference for such not jelling with the read-option of Robert Griffin III. Not at all surprisingly, that ill-fated marriage has come to a public and bitter end already this season.

Right, that's enough parsing and disclaimers, here's the list:

Vic Fangio, Defensive Coordinator, San Francisco 49ers

Vic Fangio satisfies what should be the chief criteria for this team's next head coach: Defensive expertise. The situation at quarterback, namely whether Griffin has a future or not, is so delicate it requires a coach who can dedicate full attention to the problem.

Only an offensive coordinator can do that. If Griffin is given another chance or a newcomer is added under center for 2015, it's unhealthy for the head coach to dedicate so much time to development at this key position.

What type of coach should Washington hire?

That flawed dynamic cost Mike Shanahan his job and has dominated too much of Gruden's brief and stunted tenure.

The better combination is a defensive-minded head coach prepared to leave the running of his offense to a creative and quarterback-friendly play-caller. Think John Fox with the Denver Broncos, who has entrusted his offense to Peyton Manning and coordinator Adam Gase.

As a promising potential head coach, the Redskins will struggle to find one with more defensive experience than Fangio. He's a 3-4 master whose roots in that system go as far back as the vaunted New Orleans Saints "Dome Patrol."

USA TODAY Sports

Fangio is a master of the 3-4.

Fangio has spent a lot of time around current Green Bay Packers defensive coordinator Dom Capers and knows the zone-blitz system inside out. He ran the defense for Capers with the 1996 Carolina Panthers. His unit topped the league in sacks with 60 and was second in points allowed.

The Panthers, who'd only been in existence two years, rode that defense to a spot in the NFC Championship Game.

But if you're concerned that another 3-4, zone-blitz guy sounds a lot like current defensive coordinator Jim Haslett, you needn't be. Fangio has since shown his flexibility, first at Stanford and then running the defense for the San Francisco 49ers.

In San Fran, Fangio's units have been far more simplistic schematically, but every bit as devastating as his Panthers group was nearly two decades ago. The 49ers rarely blitz, instead relying on ferocious four-man fronts and sound coverage structures built on Cover 1 shells and robber techniques.

In Fangio's first three seasons, the Niners ranked second, second and third in points allowed. His defenses were the catalyst for three straight trips to the NFC title game, including one Super Bowl berth.

Kirby Lee-USA TODAY Sports

Fangio's defense got the 49ers to a Super Bowl.

However, Fangio's efforts this season may be his most impressive. He began the campaign with his best pass-rusher, Aldon Smith, serving a nine-game suspension. Dynamic inside linebacker NaVorro Bowman was also recovering from a serious leg injury and has yet to play this season.

Fangio's secondary had been completely remade following the departures of cornerbacks Carlos Rogers and Tarell Brown, along with safety Donte Whitner. Fangio also lost All-Pro middle linebacker Patrick Willis and nose tackle Glenn Dorsey to lenghty injuries.

Yet despite all of that, Fangio's 2014 vintage still ranks 10th in points, third in yards, fourth against the pass and seventh against the run. The 49ers may be struggling at 7-6, but none of their turmoil is the fault of Fangio's defense.

USA TODAY Sports

Fangio has adapted brilliantly to injuries this season.

It's that turmoil, mostly centred on the future of head coach Jim Harbaugh, that could scupper Washington's chances of landing Fangio. That's according to Ben Volin of The Boston Globe: "The 49ers will look for a mellower coach, and will consider promoting defensive coordinator Vic Fangio. 'They just want someone with less noise,' a league source said."

A more mellow coach is just the ticket in Washington after five years of Shanahan and Gruden's gruff ways, as well as the usual annual dysfunction. This franchise needs some quiet time.

If the Redskins can convince Fangio, who expressed interest in the position last year, per ESPN reporter Adam Schefter, he'd be a great choice.

But Fangio isn't the only NFC West defensive mind this team should target.

Todd Bowles, Defensive Coordinator, Arizona Cardinals

If Todd Bowles doesn't get a head coaching job this offseason, there's something very wrong with the NFL. It shouldn't be possible to overlook the quite brilliant work he's done with the Arizona Cardinals.

Bowles' defenses have spearheaded the two-season revival in the desert. Like Fangio, he's overcome multiple injuries and losses and still managed to field a top-notch unit.

USA TODAY Sports

No matter how many players he's lost, Bowles continues to work wonders in Arizona.

Bowles entered this season missing the backbone of his hybrid 3-4 scheme. Savvy veteran middle linebacker Karlos Dansby bolted for the big bucks offered by the Cleveland Browns. Meanwhile, fellow ace inside 'backer Daryl Washington began a season-long suspension.

Since then, defensive end Darnell Dockett has been lost for the season, as has premier pass-rusher John Abraham. Tackle Calais Campbell and multipurpose defensive back Tyrann Mathieu have also missed significant time.

But instead of crying the blues about injuries (cue Haslett), Bowles has seamlessly adapted. His defense has given up the third-fewest points in football and is sixth-toughest against the run. The unit is the main reason the Cards top the ferociously tough NFC West at 10-3.

While Fangio has trusted simplicity in the Bay Area, Bowles' mercurial brain is never short of ideas. He is one of the most creative, pressure-based play-callers in the NFL.

Last season, NFL Films analyst Greg Cosell marvelled at both the daring and the sophistication of Bowles D', per Sports Illustrated reporter Doug Farrar:

This team blitzes more than any team in the NFL, and they blitz more on first down than any team in the NFL, and they're creative with their pressures. They're also very good with disguise.

Cardinals.com reporters Darren Urban and Kyle Odegard broke down some of Bowles' pressure packages for the team's official YouTube channel earlier this season:

Bowles has been so good he's earned a three-year extension to his deal. But according to ESPN Cardinals reporter Josh Weinfuss, that won't preclude him from pursuing a head coach position this offseason:

There's an obvious Redskins connection here. Bowles played safety in D.C. and won a Super Bowl under the guidance of legendary defensive boss Richie Petitbon.

He's also coached under Bill Parcells with the Dallas Cowboys and Miami Dolphins. That's the kind of experience any team should view as invaluable in a first-time head coach.

Who would you choose?

If Bowles can be tempted to leave the Cardinals, the Redskins should be at the front of the queue ready to make him the largest offer. He'd certainly create the kind of swarming, pressure-based defense this team has failed to field in five seasons of trying.

Imagine what players such as outside linebacker Ryan Kerrigan, middle 'backer Keenan Robinson and tackle Jason Hatcher would do in his system.

With a savvy offensive mind alongside him, Bowles would set a direction for a quick turnaround to match this team's obvious talent.

Darrell Bevell, Offensive Coordinator, Seattle Seahawks

Just for a nod to the offense, and particularly to the idea of Griffin being given another shot, Darrell Bevell should be on the list of potential Gruden replacements. In fact, if Griffin stays in town, Bevell should be near the top of that list.

If you've watched the Carolina Panthers this season, you can be forgiven for thinking that anyone who told you the read-option is just a fad sold you a bill of goods. Even the Miami Dolphins and the Kansas City Chiefs use facets of the system.

The read-option—or zone-read, if you prefer—is indeed alive and well, and defenses still haven't figured it out. Nobody runs it better than Bevell's Seahawks.

USA TODAY Sports

Bevell's offense has helped Russell Wilson flourish.

He's framed an entire offense around the zone-read, its run-first principles and inherent deception. In the process, he's made Russell Wilson a star while Griffin has floundered.

Wilson's a star because he's a constant threat to run and he's given the freedom to make big plays on the move. Bevell has schemed multiple ways for getting the NFL's half-size Houdini out of the pocket and into space.

But what underpins it all is a natural reliance on the tough running of Marshawn Lynch. The Seahawks are a pure zone-stretch team. Bevell doesn't deviate from that or make his running backs forgotten figures the way Gruden has this season.

Instead, he calls plays for the top-ranked rushing offense in football. With that framework around him, Wilson's incredible natural athleticism and instinct for the big play are allowed to shine.

What we have here is a play-caller prepared to tailor his system to exactly what his players do best. That certainly would be a breath of fresh air in Washington.

If Bevell took over, there would be little scheme crossover or transition needed. He'd have his running game in place thanks to Alfred Morris and Griffin. The rest of the offense would naturally follow from there. You know, the way it should now.

USA TODAY Sports

Washington has players who would make Bevell's schemes work.

Of course, the rather sizeable caveat here is whether or not Griffin gets another chance. Even if he does, could his body stand up to the type of offense Bevell has favored?

Well, if Washington's management plans to find out for sure, there's no better coach to help Griffin finally make the grade.

Bevell interviewed last season, per Mark Maske of The Washington Post. If owner Dan Snyder and general manager Bruce Allen remain committed to Griffin, as Maske's fellow Post writer Jason Reid has suggested, then they must run the rule over Bevell again.

Gruden recently claimed jobs are on the line during the last three games, per NBC reporter Dianna Marie Russini:

Hopefully, Gruden has the self-awareness to include himself in that category. Of his three potential replacements listed here, Bowles and Fangio are the best.

The offense, with a little continuity under center, a free-agent lineman or two and better play-calling, is talented enough to take care of itself. Molding a formidable defense would make this team a quick winner in 2015.

All statistics via NFL.com.

[Grayrider]

Get him out of here.  And make him take Bruce Allen with him.  Both are terrible.  Jay Gruden was brought here to develop RG3 not destroy him.  He is a complete jerk.  He is suppose to dampen the story about RG3, not incite them.  And after he got his precious McCoy he showed he really isn't a good coach.  None of the players have developed under him.  Cut bait.  Let's not suffer through another season only to be here again next year.

Maybe ol Bob just cannot play QB unless hes in a spread or run option offense...you know the one all the defenses figured out in 2013.

[Garcon More Wine]

Just so you all know, Gruden is trying to build an NFL team around Colt McCoy. Let that sink in for a few. 

 

yeah hes 100% serious about that.  just like shanahan staked his reputation on john beck and rex grossman.  

 

whats he supposed to say?  i mean i like his honesty but he cant come out to the media and go "have you seen the garbage at QB i have to work with?"

no, no, no.

Jimmy Johnson had pedigree behind him. HE lead the best college program of the 1980s who had a bushel of NFL players he brought.

Gruden was a middling offensive coordinator who got this job.

The Cowboys were changing eras when Johnson got to Dallas. Gruden is a mess.

Do not compare the two. Its intellectually lazy.

 

he had pedigree.........and went 1-15.

 

gruden hasnt even had a chance to bring in any of his own players, he was handed shanahans abomination of a roster.  what GM in their right mind sees a defense give up 30 points a game...............and brings back 95% of the defensive roster??  i mean seriously?

[ThomasRoane]

Remember ya'll - last year, the Cleveland Browns fired Chud after one year.  They had something like $60 mil in caps space and two 1st round picks to entice a new HC.  They also had a ton of talent on defense and two premier offensive linemen in the NFL.  They thought they had it made!

 

They also fired Lombardi and re-did their Front Office (Morocco Brown)

 

But by firing Chud after 1 season - they pissed off the coaching fraternity.  They didn't hit on any of their top 3 guys on their list.  Luckily they got Pettine, who is a lesser-known guy but a strong character man and a great defensive mind.  He put together a pretty good staff, too (Kyle).

 

So... We don't have that to offer a coach.  We don't have ANY of that.  We have FIVE maybe SIX players that would start on some NFL teams (not most, some).  We have a perennial mess in the owner's box and an out of date scouting department that look at old measurables and matricies.

 

Why do I post this?  When folks say it's not all about coaching, these are some examples.

 

There is no quick fix.  This team is AT LEAST three years away even with a great coach coming in.

 

So again, in summary, you get rid of Grudes, you get rid of the kit and kaboodle.

 

And add to that there will always be a mysterious leak so the coach will never get to focus on football alone.  He will have to deal with drama before they even step on the field.  This has been going on ever since Dan (Marketing background) bought the team.  For a media type there's no such thing as bad publicity.  He loves the buzz and our fan base falls for the allure of the never-ending 'next guy'  who will 'change the culture' every time.  And thus it will continue... 

[DC9]

And add to that there will always be a mysterious leak so the coach will never get to focus on football alone.  He will have to deal with drama before they even step on the field.  This has been going on ever since Dan (Marketing background) bought the team.  For a media type there's no such thing as bad publicity.  He loves the buzz and our fan base falls for the allure of the never-ending 'next guy'  who will 'change the culture' every time.  And thus it will continue... 

 

Really good piece by Manny Benton:  http://proplayerinsiders.com/nfl-player-team-news-features/fixing-washington-redskins-wont-easy-probably-will-never-happen/

 

I agree with about 95% of it.  Not 100% on his suggestions on candidates, but whole-heartidly agree with most of his solutions on what Snyder needs to do and WHY Snyder struggles to pull the trigger. 

 

Also the Redskins as a "marketing company" and not a football team are spot on. 

 

Worth the read.

[The Wicked Wop]

Just so you all know, Gruden is trying to build an NFL team around Colt McCoy. Let that sink in for a few.

Yeah as stupid as some think Snyder is, even he had to hear this and say what?

[theTruthTeller]

no, no, no.

Jimmy Johnson had pedigree behind him. HE lead the best college program of the 1980s who had a bushel of NFL players he brought.

Gruden was a middling offensive coordinator who got this job.

The Cowboys were changing eras when Johnson got to Dallas. Gruden is a mess.

Do not compare the two. Its intellectually lazy.

Exactly right.  Its crazy how people try to rationalize mediocrity by making comparisons to excellence based on a single statistic.  I feel the same about comparisons between Cousins and Manning, because Manning had 21 interceptions his first year.  You have to look at the big picture - are you getting better or getting worse.

 

When JJ took over the Cowboys, he cut all of the former all-pros who were just collecting a check.  Then he traded the best player they had.  Of course he went 1-15, he was basically starting from scratch - by design.  He made some big mistakes (Steve Walsh), but made more moves designed to rebuild the team.  He and Jones made a ton of moves those first two years to upgrade the personnel at almost every position.

 

I don't see what Gruden has done.  Every aspect of our offense is worse.  RG3 is worse.  AlMo is worse.  The OL, incredibly, is worse.  The special teams couldn't get worse, but they are still horrible.  We still play a 3-4 with 4-3 personnel.  We have two safeties that can cover and week-by-week get worse at tackling.

 

As I said earlier in the thread, I'm for keeping Gruden for the next year or two, but just as a stopgap.  There needs to be a plan, and who will implement the plan.  Gruden's actions this year lead me to believe he's an excuse maker.  Building from nothing is tough work; we need a leader.

[Zazzaro703]

I want him gone. Go read the latest Tandler article in breaking news. When Griffin said his protection failed him Gruden crucified him. McCoy said the same thing after the rams game and Gruden agreed. Its Mickey Mouse Horse**** Coaching and its not going to get any better.

[PortisBetts]

“Well, he was put in some tough situations,” said Gruden during his Monday news conference. “We continue to punish ourselves with holding calls, false starts, mis-targeting a run, poor technique from time to time and we leave ourselves in third down and too long, and we are not very good on third down obviously. And then in the second half when it became a one-dimensional game, we’re not good enough to overcome those right now at this time. So, unfortunate, it wasn’t all on Colt. Obviously he had some issues with protection. Our backs missed a few, our line missed one or two and it was a tough day for the quarterback.”
 
http://realredskins....n-failed-a-lot/
 
13 weeks in and no progress. Still the same mistakes since week 1. Missing assignments is unacceptable. Being beat is one thing, but not knowing your assignment? That is on coaching. This speaks to coaching ALL AROUND! This is why he will be fired. 13 weeks in and they still can't AT THE VERY LEAST, know their assignments. I honestly cannot name 1 positive in the last 3 weeks of play. Not a single 1.

[Boss_Hogg]

I want him gone. Go read the latest Tandler article in breaking news. When Griffin said his protection failed him Gruden crucified him. McCoy said the same thing after the rams game and Gruden agreed. Its Mickey Mouse Horse**** Coaching and its not going to get any better.

 

This cannot be emphasized enough. 

[ThomasRoane]

I've never advocated Art Briles. I like Jay Gruden but it's not working. This team has no interest in what he's selling.

How about bringing Todd Bowles back home?

 

WHY!?!?!  Because Todd Bowles is a damn good coach!  Why would he want to come to this nightmare of an organization?  With Dan and Bruce picking the players based on Mel's big board what chance would he or anyone have of competing?  Not to mention the never ending drama, incessant leaks, and an impatient fan base who doesn't understand that they are a perennial rebuilding project?

 

You dream.  You'd probably end up with Rob Ryan.  He's the only coach desperate enough to take this job.

[Rodriggo]

The problem has continued to be the keeping of Haslett and people screamed about it the second he was re-signed. I can swallow the benching and distancing from Robert because his performance has been indefensible, but keeping Haslett has not let this team move on from the previous regime and not surprisingly the leaks, the mediocrity, and the circus is still here.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

Now, allegedly he wanted McVay, but the other word was that the organization wanted to keep him prior to Gruden even coming in for an interview.  McVay is thought of to be a "hot" future head coaching prospect throughout the league.  Haslett was kept on because he snitched on Shanny.  Jay didn't want him as DC, but was semi-forced into it after the guy he wanted to bring in was promoted in Cincy.  Foerster is an excellent ZBS offensive line coach, but we are transitioning to gap blocking and that's obviously not his strength.

 

All of this didn't sound bad when he was hired, but it's now all in play.

 

Gruden has really done little to justify another year.  Bruce Allen has done even less. 

 

But this all points to the overall, underlying problem.  Organizational dysfunction.  You don't hire a coach and say "hey, here's three dudes we want to help you".  It won't matter who the coach is until we un**** that issue.  And that comes from the top.

 

 

you say allegedly he wanted McVay.  Then switch out of allegedly or at least that how it reads to me so correct me if am wrong and talk about how Jay didn't want Haslett as fact.  Based on what?  I consider myself a media hound, I watch and read everything I can get my hands on and not once did I hear or even have a reporter imply that Jay didn't want Haslett.  In fact, it was the reverse as for what the media speculated on.  

 

The turn of events the way I recall them:

 

I.  FO kept Haslett among other assistant coaches to give Jay a chance to keep any he liked.

2. Jay said he'd review all options not just the coaches currently on staff

3. Jay got rid of some of those coaches and kept some, Haslett among them

 

If the point is The Cincy LB was Jay's ist choice.  Yeah definitely some smoke to that fire.  But the idea that Jay didn't want his buddy or as Cincy's media called him, his mentor as his DC -- I can't think of a single source who sung that tune.  If you have one I'd be interested.  Its not as if all the behind the scenes dirty laundry doesn't get aired with this team so I'd figure it would have come out -- versus the current prevailing story which is will Jay have the gumption to fire his friend.  Heck even Haslett's guy Chris Russell asked Jay about this in Jay's press conference yesterday -- suggesting some say he hired Haslett because of Jay's friendship with him.   It gave Jay the opportunity to pour some more praise Haslett's way.

 

This topic has been covered plenty so not trying to debate it again but your post implied it actually went down that way so curious if you got something I missed. 

[Taylor703]

WHY!?!?! Because Todd Bowles is a damn good coach! Why would he want to come to this nightmare of an organization? With Dan and Bruce picking the players based on Mel's big board what chance would he or anyone have of competing? Not to mention the never ending drama, incessant leaks, and an impatient fan base who doesn't understand that they are a perennial rebuilding project?

You dream. You'd probably end up with Rob Ryan. He's the only coach desperate enough to take this job.

I think if Snyder offered Bowles the same contract he gave Gruden and it was written in his contract that he couldn't meddle and hired an actual GM he'd sign on the dotted line. Yes Snyder is an issue for any coach that comes here but she has to be realizing now that HE'S the problem. I couldn't fathom that it's not hitting him like a ton of bricks now. Especially with an empty stadium.

[ThomasRoane]

Really good piece by Manny Benton:  http://proplayerinsiders.com/nfl-player-team-news-features/fixing-washington-redskins-wont-easy-probably-will-never-happen/

 

I agree with about 95% of it.  Not 100% on his suggestions on candidates, but whole-heartidly agree with most of his solutions on what Snyder needs to do and WHY Snyder struggles to pull the trigger. 

 

Also the Redskins as a "marketing company" and not a football team are spot on. 

 

Worth the read.

 

Everyone should read that article!!!

 

Excellent read.  I'm really intrigued by the candidates for GM like Khan from Pittsburgh or Brian Gutekunst from Greenbay.  If a legit GM comes in and says to move on from Jay then fine.  I don't want anyone who is in the Redskins building right now, not even AJ Smith, making any football related decision. 

I think if Snyder offered Bowles the same contract he gave Gruden and it was written in his contract that he couldn't meddle and hired an actual GM he'd sign on the dotted line. Yes Snyder is an issue for any coach that comes here but she has to be realizing now that HE'S the problem. I couldn't fathom that it's not hitting him like a ton of bricks now. Especially with an empty stadium.

 

I wish I had your optimism.  He's been thru this time and time again though and has always been able to use sleight of hand to distract the fan base.  It has always ended up as a putrid mess.  Fans need to hold his feet to the fire this time.  Hire a legitimate GM.  That must be what fans demand and we should not settle for anything less. 

[DC9]

you say allegedly he wanted McVay.  Then switch out of allegedly or at least that how it reads to me so correct me if am wrong and talk about how Jay didn't want Haslett as fact.  Based on what?  I consider myself a media hound, I watch and read everything I can get my hands on and not once did I hear or even have a reporter imply that Jay didn't want Haslett.  In fact, it was the reverse as for what the media speculated on.  

 

The turn of events the way I recall them:

 

I.  FO kept Haslett among other assistant coaches to give Jay a chance to keep any he liked.

2. Jay said he'd review all options not just the coaches currently on staff

3. Jay got rid of some of those coaches and kept some, Haslett among them

 

If the point is The Cincy LB was Jay's ist choice.  Yeah definitely some smoke to that fire.  But the idea that Jay didn't want his buddy or as Cincy's media called him, his mentor as his DC -- I can't think of a single source who sung that tune.  If you have one I'd be interested.  Its not as if all the behind the scenes dirty laundry doesn't get aired with this team so I'd figure it would have come out -- versus the current prevailing story which is will Jay have the gumption to fire his friend.  Heck even Haslett's guy Chris Russell asked Jay about this in Jay's press conference yesterday -- suggesting some say he hired Haslett because of Jay's friendship with him.   It gave Jay the opportunity to pour some more praise Haslett's way.

 

This topic has been covered plenty so not trying to debate it again but your post implied it actually went down that way so curious if you got something I missed. 

 

Of course I don't know how it all went down, no one knows nor will they ever really know.  I'm like you, I'm using the evidence that we have from the media.  The fact that Haz and McVay weren't immediately named at their position says what you need to know. 

 

As far as the wording with "allegedly" ref McVay goes, don't read into that.  He allegedly wanted McVay but had to put him somewhere is all I'm implying.

 

But it was implied by several beat reporters at the time that Haz and McVay were going to be kept regardless in some capacity - mainly it was Chris Russell.  The idea for Haz was that he may not be a defensive coordinator, but a head coaching consultant for Gruden's transition from OC to HC.  Not necissarily with X's and O's, but with the other nuances of being a head coach - especially on game day.  In other words, he's being kept cause he snitched on Shanahan and we really don't care wear.

 

The London Fletcher comments that come out about him being a snitch and a back stabber - which I believe 100% (cause how else would he have a job?) lead me to believe that he sold Jay on Shanny interfering with his defense.  I just hope that everyone in the organization remembers the "I finally have the pieces for a disruptive defense" bit from earlier in the year.

Everyone should read that article!!!

 

Excellent read.  I'm really intrigued by the candidates for GM like Khan from Pittsburgh or Brian Gutekunst from Greenbay.  If a legit GM comes in and says to move on from Jay then fine.  I don't want anyone who is in the Redskins building right now, not even AJ Smith, making any football related decision.

 

Khan is Bruce Allen lite.  Gutenkust I don't know much about.

[Skinsinparadise]

Of course I don't know how it all went down, no one knows nor will they ever really know.  I'm like you, I'm using the evidence that we have from the media.  The fact that Haz and McVay weren't immediately named at their position says what you need to know. 

 

As far as the wording with "allegedly" ref McVay goes, don't read into that.  He allegedly wanted McVay but had to put him somewhere is all I'm implying.

 

But it was implied by several beat reporters at the time that Haz and McVay were going to be kept regardless in some capacity - mainly it was Chris Russell.  The idea for Haz was that he may not be a defensive coordinator, but a head coaching consultant for Gruden's transition from OC to HC.  Not necissarily with X's and O's, but with the other nuances of being a head coach - especially on game day.  In other words, he's being kept cause he snitched on Shanahan and we really don't care wear.

 

The London Fletcher comments that come out about him being a snitch and a back stabber - which I believe 100% (cause how else would he have a job?) lead me to believe that he sold Jay on Shanny interfering with his defense.  I just hope that everyone in the organization remembers the "I finally have the pieces for a disruptive defense" bit from earlier in the year.

 

Khan is Bruce Allen lite.  Gutenkust I don't know much about.

 

If the fact that Haz and Mcvay were kept says all we need to know?, then what happened with the three coaches that Jay let go once he got the job.  And (supposedly) super honest, Jay, said in his press conference then he'd review the coaches here and decide to either keep them or replace them if there is a better option.  He did just that.  He kept some, and let some go.  I listened to Russell at the time plenty.  The idea that Haslett would be here was presented by Russell, not because of that's the what the FO is demanding but by a combination of according to Russell that Halsett is a good coach and has a relationship with Jay, ditto on McVay.

 

I'll let go after this point, I don't get why the idea of Jay being friends with Haslett is incidental and not a key part of the story.  It was the heart of the speculation in the first place of why people expected Haslett to remain once Jay got the job.    And his friendshsip is part of the story line still right now and being referred to by both Halsett's biggest supporter, Russell and Haslett's detractor, London Fletcher. 

 

Now if the line of the thought is the FO should have let Haslett go so it didn't facilitate Jay hiring him so easily, I get that or  even a wilder idea if the FO was so in love with Halsett then maybe it geared them to the one coach whose hometown media calls Haslett's their mentor, Jay Gruden.  How can Jay not hire his mentor, that's our guy!  

 

But yeah IMO I just don't see how Jay doesn't deserve serious blame for Haslett.   

[nelsonal]

Just so you all know, Gruden is trying to build an NFL team around Colt McCoy. Let that sink in for a few. 

 

Good!  One of the biggest mistakes the Redskins have made over the last 20 years is expending far too many resources on the hunt for a QB of mythic proportions (and then not having the supporting cast to really make the QB shine when they finally got close).  

 

Had they kept Campbell for a bad year or two and used their second on a RT or G, they'd be far more likely to be in a much better position today, and most likely wouldn't have preformed that much worse than they did with McNabb.  

[DC9]

I'll let go after this point, I don't get why the idea of Jay being friends with Haslett is incidental and not a key part of the story.  It was the heart of the speculation in the first place of why people expected Haslett to remain once Jay got the job.    And his friendshsip is part of the story line still right now and being referred to by both Halsett's biggest supporter, Russell and Haslett's detractor, London Fletcher. 

 

Now if the line of the thought is the FO should have let Haslett go so it didn't facilitate Jay hiring him so easily, I get that or  even a wilder idea if the FO was so in love with Halsett then maybe it geared them to the one coach whose hometown media calls Haslett's their mentor, Jay Gruden.  How can Jay not hire his mentor, that's our guy!  

 

But yeah IMO I just don't see how Jay doesn't deserve serious blame for Haslett.   

 

Honestly, the reason that I thought any friendship coorilation was BS cause of what Jay said to "Moving the Chains" after the zero coverage/Mohamad Sanu TD pass when they beat us in 2012.

 

I know we're boys, but come on... this is my chance.

 

But if he was THAT sold on Haz I think he would've said something initially, also.

 

I'd give him the benefit of the doubt on that.  Plus we're the Redskins.  So 3 - 1 Jay.

[The Wicked Wop]

Interesting. The offset is something that is obviously not new but if he has some kinda of fired clause that only pays half his salary then it would be rather cheap to walk away from. I'm going to leave it as speculation unless/until I hear different.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2294231-insider-buzz-contract-could-entice-redskins-to-fire-gruden-instead-of-cut-rg3

[TSO]

From other posts, am gathering your top goal is to have a real personnel guy running this team.  As it is for me and most of us.  I doubt Danny is going anywhere and for better or worse he's likely going to be here no matter what.  So who is the guy in the way of a real football guy running the operation?  Bruce.

 

I think the part you are missing is for how strong potentially Bruce and Jay are interlinked, and it has been discussed quite a bit on talk radio especially yesterday so its not some off beat outlier theory.  With some reporters alluding to Jay failing speaks really bad for Bruce so Bruce likely will be in Jay's corner.

 

A.  Bruce Allen and Jay are tied to the hip.  Bruce was all over that hire.  

B.  It's Bruce who is likely to save Jay's job.

C.  Lets say Jay gets let go.  What is Danny going to say, shucks Bruce nice try with Jay but stuff happens, 3-13, we look like a team on the rise, people aren't showing up to the games but who cares, what do you think next Bruce, whose your next recommendation?

 

The idea that if we knock down Jay we are ignoring the larger problem.   I just don't see it.  If anything it brings the spotlight there in a way that wouldn't be there otherwise.   Is Jay going to push for a real football guy to run the operation in the off season and go against Bruce who actually gave him his job?  Doubt it.

 

Jay bombing out IMO screams the FO is the problem, they hired him.  The RG3 issue perhaps confuses it all since there is the perception that the FO is pro-RG3 and the HC isn't.  but heck even if we paint everything on RG3.  It was Bruce who hired Jay presuming on the premise that he's the guy who can help and instead its been a big debacle -- that speaks poorly of Bruce.

 

In short, if they give up on Jay how the heck is Bruce unscathed?  IMO its the biggest strikeout he could have and in turn more likely to set up not kill the idea of a real football running the operation.

 

I think you focus way too much on talk radio, brother. I really don't put a huge amount of stalk into what they're talking about or how they think when it's opinion-based. I'll listen to a guy like Cooley or Fletcher maybe a little more due to their first hand accounts, but even then I can understand their biases.

 

As far as your point about knocking Jay down doesn't mean it's ignoring the larger problem, I'm sorry, it does to a large extent. It's obsessive at this point here on ES and it reflects the same EXACT foolish mentality we've had here for so long with regards to targeting the HC and thinking a change there will make a huge difference. Why would you expect me to give anyone here the benefit of the doubt when this has happened like 800 times now? Honestly?

 

My problem is, if that's understood, then why all these threads with a ton of pages about Gruden? What is it going to take for us to understand that any coach that comes here is going to look stupid? 

 

For me, it's simple. Let me put it scientifically. If I told you I did an experiment with 8 variables; a, b, c, d, e, f, x and y. I achieved a result and let's say, for the sake of argument, it's number-based. Let's go with 35.

 

I then do another experiment with all the same variables, except I removed two of them (x and y) and replaced them g and h. I have pretty much the same exact result... let's go with 34.5.

 

Wouldn't I be foolish to think x and y were huge factors and focus at all on them? Or should I start focusing more on the other variables if I'm trying to get a different result?  

 

This is exactly what we're doing here. We literally have almost the EXACT same results from last year and, furthermore, the type of circus atmosphere every coach that's been here has had to endure. It doesn't matter who it is. No coach has instilled discipline here, at least on the field. Even under Gibbs, we had a ton of penalties and that was with an even worse offense than what we've had under Shanny and Gruden. The leaks were common with Gibbs as well, we even had "andyman" here for crying out loud, lol. JLC would report crap that would make us all angry at first, but then it'd turn out true.         

 

I keep hearing the argument that "things are getting worse" under Gruden and I just have to laugh at that. I could pull up posts and threads from the last decade that show that is utter nonsense. It's the same. This is the organization we're dealing with. So it's extremely difficult to judge the coaches here. Maybe they all do suck, but it's legitimate to wonder if they were just consumed by this awfulness and couldn't get out of it versus they just stink and were bad hires. How do we know that Gruden can't improve immensely, for instance, if put in just a slightly better situation? 

 

Anyone who claims to know that is being ridiculous and automatically loses credibility with me. 

 

We essentially agree here that Bruce is mainly at fault. I'd also say Dan is even more at fault, especially with how often we hear he's involved now in everything with Bruce, never mind that he just handed him the GM title when he had no business assuming that role. Last season everyone in the organization was making it super clear that Dan wasn't involved at all and now we're hearing the complete opposite, so I'm not going to be fooled anymore. He's directly involved and probably has been much more than we think the last how many years. 

 

I'll post my list of problems (in order of significance) one more time, and you tell me if you think it's wrong and why. Otherwise, shouldn't the focus here on this board be proportionate to it? Why isn't it? Why are we getting stuck on this same old cycle and refusing to learn?

 

1- Dan Snyder

2- Dan Snyder

3- Dan Snyder

4- Bruce Allen as GM

5- Scouting Department

6- Jim Haslett

7- Player personnel

8- Rest of the coaches, including Gruden

[TSO]

Have you ever made a hire thinking you're getting an allstar only to find do out the person is a dud. This happens with players all the time, but the ramifications are far different with coaches.

I remember many years back my Co. needed to

hire someone. Long story short and I'm careful what I put online........but in the end all it was, was a person that looked perfect on paper, near perfect in interviews (fooled 5 of us who were mgrs or senior mgrs), but couldn't remotely do the job.

Point is job interviews are one thing someone selling themselves and you do your best during the interview to throw out the bull and find out if this person can get it done. If it fails yes it's on Bruce and he's got to eat that.

With all that said I still stand 100% behind my Gruden thoughts. That what he said he was going to do and what he's done are two different things. As a GM I doubt you'd ever see that coming when making a coaching hire, especially in the first year.

 

Here's the thing, Wicked Wop, this isn't the first time we've made such a supposedly awful hire. At some point you have to point the finger at the men making the hires and you have to wonder if ANYONE can come here and succeed. When we're seeing virtually the same results with no matter who comes here or assumes the HC title... it has to become clearer that the issues present aren't with those guys. 

 

Now maybe someone out there can find a way to handle things better than them. Maybe. But it looks like no matter what personality they have, the success they've had elsewhere or type of character they possess... the results are virtually identical.   

 

Unless you believe in such things as total coincidence (hiring what just happens to be the same type of fool over and over). I just don't.  

[Brokenstriker]

Why he should be fired immediately.

-Record is the same as last year down to a blowout home loss in week 14. No improvement.

-Passive aggressive jabs at RG3 in the media shows a lack of respect and professionalism

-Team gave up on Shanny down the stretch last year. What's Gruden's excuse?

-I was at the game yesterday (my dad actually caught the Zuerlein miss right before halftime which was awesome). There was no sense of excitement from the players. They jogged out of the tunnel in the most nonchalant, indifferent way. No smiles around. That's on coaching to get them motivated. Meanwhile, the Rams were pumped.

-He continues to support Haslett despite the fact he's an awful awful coach

-If you still think RG3 is your guy (debatable), you need to fire Gruden before he alienates Robert even further

-Benches RG3 instead of playing to his strengths (See San Fran and Seattle).

-He almost seems like he wants to be fired, like Shanny last year

 

 

I admit I thought it was a bonehead move for the Browns to fire their coach after a decent season last year. But right now a year later they are so much better. Maybe we can have something like that, even if it's just a jump to 8-8 if we fire Gruden 

- The trend for first year coaches of BAD teams is to rack up a losing season ... this includes the best of the best head coaches (e.g., Belichick, Landry ...)

- Respect is earned ... no obligation to give it away.  Professionalism ... in general I agree with you but I could beleive that it was a considered tactic due to earlier attempts to "coach-up" RG3 being summarily ignored/ineffective ... and the top priority for him to get his act together

- Shanny was given years ... not just one season

- Losing isn't inspirational ... executive dabbling in starting line-ups is undermining ... and hopefully most of these players are seeing the handwriting on the wall ("your NFL career is over come January) ... good point but not surprising they were down while they were getting their butts kicked

- you can only ride the horse you have ... if not Haz ... then who exactly would be better and available in December (or September for that matter) ... and how would the team react?

- Given the fact that Gruden hasn't had to retract the RG3 benching decision ... I think it means RG3 is not "the guy" ... at least not now.  Also I would conclude that it means that Gruden demonstrated to is bosses that he has done a credible job of "coaching-up" RG3 and that RG3 just plain isn't doing it correctly

- RG3's strengths are ... lol ... wait ... that's funny ... I mean "strength is"  running the Run-Option ... a system that A) he has openly stated he isn't interested in playing; B ) he doesn't execute when its called ... he's handed off even when the "read" is QB keeper; and C) is the reason he's broken

[Brokenstriker]

 

My problem is, if that's understood, then why all these threads with a ton of pages about Gruden?

 

simple answer ... pissed off fans looking for a quick and available supposed fix

 

A/K/A ... a witch hunt

 

its easier and faster than waiting for the arrival ... even if masterfully done ... of:  3 - 4 quality starting O linemen; 1 quality ILB; 1 "true" NT; 1 - 2 quality pass rushing specialists; 2 quality CBs; 2 quality safeties; 1 decent kicker with the leg to stop the KO returns; 5 - 6 quality ST role players; 1 quality blocking TE; and, 1 quality veteran QB to either start or mentor a young QB ... not to mention some quality young back-ups to develop instead of throwing them to the wolves in desperate hope

 

that's at least 3 years of systematic roster recovery ... and by then there will be some other positions that need refreshing as well

[Mad Mike]

Can I fire the thread starter?

 

Seiously. How many times must history repeat itself here? How many times do we blame everyone but the overhyped, overpaid players who pull this club down. 

 

The first time we get a HC who tells it like it is and benches an underperforming "superstar" people want to fire him. Dont you get it? THAT is what's wrong with this team. Players have NO accountability because the coaches get the blame. How many coaches must bench RG3 before anyone believes RG3 is the problem? We are at 2... so how many? 3... 4... 5?

 

Bottom line I don't care how good a runner he is, EVERY QB must be able to run an NFL offense. While your dream coach is playing to RG3s strengths (whatever they are supposed to be) the other team is checking off all of the things RG3 cant do and focusing on his strengths as well. A great running QB should ENHANCE the passing game, not replace it by running around and getting hurt. 

 

I swear. No joke. If Snyder fires Gruden and continues to coddle RG3 i'm done with this team. Emotionally I'm half way out the door already.