The case for firing Gruden ASAP

[HogsOfWar]

RGIII has played four games, we've lost ten. There is no accountability, he just doesn't like the kid. There's nothing wrong with that but trying to hide behind the guise of accountability while continuing to play guys like Chester and Lauvao, praising them even, makes this whole "accountability" schtick a big ****ing joke.

I love that we can go out, not score a point, turn the ball over three times, give up 6 sacks and guys are still ****ing about RGIII. We suck! The whole ****ing team sucks. It's getting worse week by week. But please, let's keep Gruden for continuities sake since you know that makes everything better and all. Keeping Jim Haslett for five years has certainly improved the defense. Yay for continuity!

 

The RG3 fan looks at the team and says "RG3 is good, but the coach and the rest of the team suck. We fired the coach last year, let's fire this year's coach too. One of these years we'll get the right coach for RG3."

[MattFancy]

The RG3 fan looks at the team and says "RG3 is good, but the coach and the rest of the team suck. We fired the coach last year, let's fire this year's coach too. One of these years we'll get the right coach for RG3."

 

The RG3 hater looks at the team and says "RG3 is trash, but the coach and the rest of the team are good. We fired the coach last year, let's let this coach who is 3-10 keep going because RG3 is so bad, he's holding the coaches and players back."

[Taylor703]

The RG3 fan looks at the team and says "RG3 is good, but the coach and the rest of the team suck. We fired the coach last year, let's fire this year's coach too. One of these years we'll get the right coach for RG3."

Nobody is saying RGIII played well but I'm getting sick and tired of a guy who's played in 4 games this season getting the bulk of the blame. It's stupid. It's like people have run out of excuses for Gruden and are grasping at straws.

[3200fps]

The RG3 hater looks at the team and says "RG3 is trash, but the coach and the rest of the team are good. We fired the coach last year, let's let this coach who is 3-10 keep going because RG3 is so bad, he's holding the coaches and players back."

 

I was a fan of Robert when he was just that, not the person he has evolved to.  I wish to have "Robert" back, but I have no idea at this point if Bob wants to be Robert again.  Sure, Brady and Manning have commercials and living amazing lives, but those folks are legendary for not just busting their asses in the weight room but also in the film room.  IF Bob was putting in the study time that Brady and Manning do then I wouldn't care if he was in tons of commercials and the same for his social media love.

[Brokenstriker]

But you have to give me..........if Jay just did what he said in the offseason which was lean on the running game (and/or figure out why we can't run) Gruden's job security would be less of a question if at all.

no agrument ^^

[HogsOfWar]

The RG3 hater looks at the team and says "RG3 is trash, but the coach and the rest of the team are good. We fired the coach last year, let's let this coach who is 3-10 keep going because RG3 is so bad, he's holding the coaches and players back."

 

That's not true at all. The RG3 haters are all really Snyder haters. This team won't be any good until Snyder learns to keep his paws off the players, coaches, and GMs. That's why we don't want Gruden fired. But by contrast, the RG3 fans really do still believe in their guy.

[theTruthTeller]

Gruden shouldn't be fired by Allen. If Allen is back, Gruden should be back. If Allen fires Gruden, that's a collosal mistake, and should cost Allen his job.

If Allen is fired, the new GM should decide Grudens fate.

For me, I actually think Gruden was dealt a crappy hand, and as a rookie HC, he's struggled to handle the situation well.

I'd like to see more. But I'd like to see significant changes in the FO and coaching staff.

Of the rest of the staff, defensively, everybody can go, maybe keep the OLB coach. The rest, bye bye.

Offensively, I'd replace OL, TE, RB and get a new QB coach. I can't really judge WR, but they seem to know what they're doing.

We need RB and TE coaches who can coach guys to BLOCK.

I don't mean this to be critical of your post in any way - I generally like your posts a lot - but what exactly do you want to see more of?  At the beginning of his time, almost everyone thought we were loaded with offensive talent, and that was before we got Djax.  We added to the OL (I don't necessarily blame him for that) and there have been no tangible gains in any offensive department.  We continue to gain yards at a decent measure, but have nothing to show for it in points.

 

About the only group that is doing as well or better than last year is the tight ends.  But only as receivers, not as blockers, which is bad for a team with OL problems.  And, to be honest, Williams had taken a step back even before the injury.

 

If the plan had been to blow up the team, I'd feel differently.  But we have the same people as last year, most of the offense is young, and its still horribly ineffective unless Robert puts on his superman suit.  I'm pretty sure that if there was a plan, it was to get the  most out of RG3.  No one can blame Gruden for Roberts medical condition, but what I see is a kid who wants to do well, but has been completely broken.  In no way is RG3 better than last year.  We had one quality win this year.  One, as compared to multiple losses to horrible teams.

 

As I said in other posts, we should keep Gruden solely to stabilize for a future coach.  Preferably, we would not emasculate him ala Jim Zorn.  Just accept that we need to start a rebuild next year and worry about acquiring an developing talent, not immediate results.  But its probably going to be ugly in the interim.

[ZRagone]

Oh can we stop with the asinine "haters" talk.

 

News flash for people.

 

There are people who think RG3 needs to go that also think Gruden needs to go.

 

There are undboutably people who think RG3 should stay, but don't think Gruden needs to go.

 

There are fans of RG3 that dislike Dan Snyder. There are people who dislike Dan Snyder that think Gruden needs to go.

 

And I can go on and on...

 

There's plenty of reasons that someone could point to, completely aside from Griffin, that puts forward a legitiate argument to can Gruden. Doesn't mean the canning would be right, just that it's not an outlandish argument.

 

It's also entirely possible to add Griffin into that equation without doing it in an unrealistic way. Hell, it's even possible to add Griffin into that equation even while holding the belief that Griffin is a failure that can't make it in the NFL.

 

And one does not necessarily have to be an "RG3 fan" to suggest that there are a multitude of problems with this team or even to suggest that there's been a disproporionate amount of blame placed on Griffin in terms of this teams failure this season. And suggesitng that in no way EXCUSES Griffin or says that he's "good".

 

If I say "Yeah, that saw mill over there smells bad. However, so does that pile of cow dung, that rotting bag of garbage, and that skunk...so why so much focus on the saw mill?" that's not saying "The saw mill smells like fresh cut roses", it's saying "Yeah, it stinks, but so does a ton of other things, so why aren't we addressing ALL OF THEM".

 

Before the season there were folks going "if Griffin can't succeed with these offensive weapons then that's it for him, he's done". And that's a reasonable stance to take. But that same stance applies with Colt's offense getting blown out by the Rams or Cousins two sub 70 QB rating games. The same stance applies to the head coach and offensive play caller who's offense failed to get over 20 points in nine of the thirteen games this year.

 

There's been systematic failure across the board on this team, and it goes much bigger than a single QB. That doens't mean the QB hasn't been a failure as well, it simply means he's one piece of the entire picture.

[Skinsinparadise]

its what I said earlier, don't see how Jay bombs out and Allen comes off unscathed, with that in mind I'd assume Allen will fight hard to keep Jay

 

 

 

A Gruden firing also would signal yet another Bruce Allen failing, so he would probably fight to make this thing work at least another year.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2014/12/09/redskins-mailbag-on-gruden-mccoy-griffin-and-the-future-of-the-franchise/

[Taylor703]

That's not true at all. The RG3 haters are all really Snyder haters. This team won't be any good until Snyder learns to keep his paws off the players, coaches, and GMs. That's why we don't want Gruden fired. But by contrast, the RG3 fans really do still believe in their guy.

Again, you're wrong but please continue on with your "RGIII haters" really are just looking out for the team schtick.

[penasquito]

Hey, guys, I'm a Cowboys fan, normally I stick to ATN, but I thought I'd throw my $0.02 in over here.

 

You can't hire a guy, give him a contract worth $20,000,000 and then fire him after less than a year.  I'm sorry, that's just not how the NFL works.  You're married to Gruden and Allen for at least 2 years, probably 3 or 4.  All you can do is endure the losing, draft well, and fix the salary cap so that the superstars get paid like superstars (and you've got precious few of those to worry about) and the role players get paid like role players.

 

 Maybe they (Allen and Gruden) can do it, and maybe they can't.  If the product on the field still stinks at the end of the 2016 season, maybe you can fire the entire operation (front office and coaching staff), hire a GM and let whoever that is build the entire coaching staff, scouting department, etc. from the ground up.

 

Impatience is not your friend, here.  Blowing the entire organization up every year or even every 4 years is obviously not a formula for success.  You picked a GM, he picked a coach, you've got to let these guys build a team, and that takes more than a year.  Some of you may be thinking that Jay Gruden was taking over one of the best teams in the NFL when he was hired, but that is just not the case.  You're going to have to bite the bullet a little bit, draft well, fill some needs via free agency, implement an offensive and defensive system and generally do the hard work of building a winning program.  And even then there's no guarantee that you're going to win the Super Bowl.  That's just to give yourself a chance in a few years.

 

It's fine to say that Gruden deserves to be fired ASAP, its just not gonna happen.

[Taylor703]

So what you're saying is, we should hire a coach, take away all of his duties, publicly embarrass him and let him stand on the sidelines like a chump? Because that's what Jerry Jones has done to Jason Garrett all in the sake of continuity. I honestly feel bad for Garrett. He looks like he's trying so hard not to be miserable whenever I see him on the sidelines.

[VRIEL1]

You fire Gruden after 1 year and no decent coach will take the job. You gotta stick with Gruden. Why would Snyder pay $15 mill for Gruden not to be working for the team? Why pay $5 mill to Gruden to not coach and another $5+ mill to a new HC? not gunna happen.

 

I'd get rid of RGme. He does not fit a WCO scheme. He fits a gimmicky team like the Eagles or Seahawks. Cut bait. There is too much work to do and not enough time to fix RGme. Move on. Keep McCoy and Cousins and give them both another year while you build up the OL. Get the OL fixed then either keep both QB's or draft another after this year. Fire no game Haslett and bring in the best DC available. See if Russ Grimm will come in and fix the OL and make him assistant HC. BOOM! 

[HogsOfWar]

Again, you're wrong but please continue on with your "RGIII haters" really are just looking out for the team schtick.

 

So you think RG3 can potentially be a top 10 QB in the league, going forwards, given his injuries and lack of pocket fundamentals?

[Taylor703]

So you think RG3 can potentially be a top 10 QB in the league, going forwards, given his injuries and lack of pocket fundamentals?

I don't know what RGIII can be. I literally have no clue? It's not going to hurt me to move on from Griffin. I want the team to blow everything up and start from scratch.

[s0crates]

Some people still think this is about RG3?

Talk about belief perseverance.

[Taylor703]

Some people still think this is about RG3?

Talk about belief perseverance.

It's the excuse being used against the people that want to move on from Gruden.

[HogsOfWar]

I don't know what RGIII can be. I literally have no clue? It's not going to hurt me to move on from Griffin. I want the team to blow everything up and start from scratch.

 

So what makes you think this time will be different than all the other times? Is there any number of times to blow the team up before you'll consider the possibility that maybe Snyder has been common denominator throughout all these coaches that you don't like?

[penasquito]

So what you're saying is, we should hire a coach, take away all of his duties, publicly embarrass him and let him stand on the sidelines like a chump? Because that's what Jerry Jones has done to Jason Garrett all in the sake of continuity. I honestly feel bad for Garrett. He looks like he's trying so hard not to be miserable whenever I see him on the sidelines.

Are you asking me?  Because I don't think I said anything remotely like that.

 

But if you did all of those things and were 9-4, would you be happy?  If the Cowboys had actually done all those things, do you think they'd be 9-4?

 

Regardless, this doesn't seem like it really fits in this thread.  I didn't say a word about Garrett or Jones, so maybe you really were replying to someone else and I'm just overly sensitive.

[Taylor703]

So what makes you think this time will be different than all the other times? Is there any number of times to blow the team up before you'll consider the possibility that maybe Snyder has been common denominator throughout all these coaches that you don't like?

Of course Snyder is THE problem. Nobody is denying this. However Tom Benson was the problem in New Orleans forever until he acquired Sean Payton and Drew Brees. Blowing it up at least gives us a chance to start fresh and maybe, just maybe he gets it right this time. It's better than just sitting on your hands hoping it gets better with what we currently have.

[ZRagone]

So what makes you think this time will be different than all the other times? Is there any number of times to blow the team up before you'll consider the possibility that maybe Snyder has been common denominator throughout all these coaches that you don't like?

 

1. ****ing about Snyder does little good. I don't think you'll find many people on this forum who don't believe Snyder is the problem. The difference is between thos who realize that said problem isn't going away and those that just want to keep bashing their head against the wall. The reality is he is the owner, there's no one that can really "fire him", and it's not realistic to expect him to leave anytime soon. So if your entire and SINGULAR point is "if Snyder is here its going to suck" then really whether or not we blow everyone out, or keep Gruden for a decade, is entirely irrelevant.

 

2. So what makes you think NOT firing him will be different than all the other times? We didn't fire Jim Zorn after one season. How successful were we? We didn't fire Mike Shanahan after one season, how successful were we? We didn't fire Spurrior after one season. How successful were we?

 

Your two arguments seem to be:

 

1. Snyder's the problem, not the coach

 

2. It didn't work in the past, so we shouldn't do it now

 

Both of those arguments are crappy arguments for keeping Jay Gruden. If Snyder is the problem, and not the coach, then whether we keep Gruden or not is completely irrelevant because things will be crappy anyways. And the argument that "It didn't work in the past, so we shouldn't do it now" could be used just as much for getting rid of Gruden rather than crossing our fingers and hoping it works.

 

There's definitely legitimate reasons to keep Gruden, and there's ones for getting rid of him as well. However "snyder sucks" and "it didn't work for us before" are not one of them.

[VRIEL1]

So what makes you think this time will be different than all the other times? Is there any number of times to blow the team up before you'll consider the possibility that maybe Snyder has been common denominator throughout all these coaches that you don't like?

 

Your 100% right... the common denominator is Snyder. The team has changed QB's, changed HC's, changed DC's, changed GM's...... the only thing that has not changed is the Owner. When the team fired Shanahan (which I think was wrong), and the only side of the ball that was producing and kept the coach of the only side not producing, Haslett, I was flabbergasted. The owner is not just going to up and sell the team cause everyone wants him to. He's making too much money from the fans to do that. Thus why I choose not to purchase anything "Redskins" related until the ship is righted. Whoever, it keeps getting harder and harder not to just give up and start supporting another team. My heart says don't do it, but I'm getting tired of the same results ever since Snyder purchased the team.

Of course Snyder is THE problem. Nobody is denying this. However Tom Benson was the problem in New Orleans forever until he acquired Sean Payton and Drew Brees. Blowing it up at least gives us a chance to start fresh and maybe, just maybe he gets it right this time. It's better than just sitting on your hands hoping it gets better with what we currently have.

 

Wasn't Gibbs1 in a similar situation his first year? wasn't his record like 8-8? or something like that. Maybe they should have blown it up after his first year also. No, Gibbs realized his mistake and tweaked his scheme and the rest was history.

[Taylor703]

Gruden doesn't get the leeway that Joe Gibbs gets.

[HogsOfWar]

 

1. ****ing about Snyder does little good. I don't think you'll find many people on this forum who don't believe Snyder is the problem. The difference is between thos who realize that said problem isn't going away and those that just want to keep bashing their head against the wall. The reality is he is the owner, there's no one that can really "fire him", and it's not realistic to expect him to leave anytime soon. So if your entire and SINGULAR point is "if Snyder is here its going to suck" then really whether or not we blow everyone out, or keep Gruden for a decade, is entirely irrelevant.

 

2. So what makes you think NOT firing him will be different than all the other times? We didn't fire Jim Zorn after one season. How successful were we? We didn't fire Mike Shanahan after one season, how successful were we? We didn't fire Spurrior after one season. How successful were we?

 

Your two arguments seem to be:

 

1. Snyder's the problem, not the coach

 

2. It didn't work in the past, so we shouldn't do it now

 

Both of those arguments are crappy arguments for keeping Jay Gruden. If Snyder is the problem, and not the coach, then whether we keep Gruden or not is completely irrelevant because things will be crappy anyways. And the argument that "It didn't work in the past, so we shouldn't do it now" could be used just as much for getting rid of Gruden rather than crossing our fingers and hoping it works.

 

There's definitely legitimate reasons to keep Gruden, and there's ones for getting rid of him as well. However "snyder sucks" and "it didn't work for us before" are not one of them.

 

I get that you want to be more productive than having a **** fest, but if that's the case we need to be realistic. We are fans, not consultants to the front office. That means we are the customer. So what recourse do we have? Albert Hirschmann conceptualized it the best in his classic Exit, Voice, and Loyalty: Responses to Decline in Firms, Organizations, and States.

 

Exit - stop being a fan. See also: Operation Starve Snyder.

Voice - protest - see also: the **** fest in just about every other thread. You might think that exit is the only mechanism that works in a market society, but voice is surprisingly effective. If I get bad service at a restaurant I'll never go back. But my mother-in-law will complain to the manager and get fawned over for the rest of the evening.

 

So if we are going to be realistic, Exit and Voice are pretty much our only options. Snyder is a public figure due to his ownership of the team and he does not want to be hated and mocked. My take on Snyder is that he is very thin-skinned and narcissistic so he probably wants to be a beloved owner like JKC. 

 

Overall I'd say that arguing for a new coach just protects Snyder from the full force of public disapproval.

[dballer]

Not saying it is the only reason to want to fire Jay, but those that want to do it because they think it will give Griffin a chance to stay here and be the QB...Well that is just crazy talk. No one not named Briles would take this job after seeing the Owner fire two coaches because they couldn't make it work with Griffin, especially considering the second coach only got one year.

 

If you fire Gruden, the only way you bring in a coach that is at all sought after is to get rid of Griffin as well.