Thoughts on Cousins and the next few weeks

[MattFancy]

I'm confused. Are you suggesting that RG3 as a game manager will work for us in the long term?

 

Yes. Works in Seattle and KC. Worked for years in Pittsburgh. Hell, Eli was pretty much that during the Giants 2 Super Bowl runs.

 

Right now, our defense is not good enough for that most weeks. If we can improve the defense, we won't need video game stats out of the QB position every week.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

what team would want to trade for a back up QB?

you guys arent even being rational.

I said that we could not trade him. I just don't think we are going to release him.

[skins/psu1981]

Yes. Works in Seattle and KC. Worked for years in Pittsburgh. Hell, Eli was pretty much that during the Giants 2 Super Bowl runs.

 

Right now, our defense is good enough for that most weeks. If we can improve the defense, we won't need video game stats out of the QB position every week.

We gave up 3 1's and a 2nd for a game manager? I don't think we would've made that trade if that was the case

[GoDeep81]

I'd hate to see any of them moved before we get a chance to see what they could do with an actual offensive line.. May have Manning the III, IV, and V on the team if they get an actual pocket to stand in!!

 

Also think calling Wilson a game manager is a little far fetched.. His arm may say game manager, but his legs disagree..

[Alexa]

You know who else has won games this year as a game manager? Russell Wilson. And you can't tell me he's not a game manager.

 

He has 7, yes 7 games with under 200yds passing and another 2 where he threw for 201 and 202. Griffin "only" threw for 220yds against Philly, Wilson has 5 games with over 220yds passing. Wanna know how many Griffin has this season? 4. He's also played way less games. Also has 7 games with 0 or 1 TD pass.

 

That's great that Kirk threw for 345 and 3 TDs against Philly back in Week 3. We also lost the game. I'll take Griffin's stats and a win any day. Works for Seattle.

Last night Wilson dominated the game against one of the best defenses in the NFL.  A game manager does not do what he did. Wilson is never going to have Drew Brees stats.  That's not the what their offense is. But he's a playmaker. He makes plays for their offense and it works for them. He does things that doesn't show up in the stat sheet.  He's also a 3rd round draft pick and never complains about running.

 

I do hope Griffin gets to going back to running a little more if he's the starter next year. Just having him sit back  and throw short passes and a couple deep balls isn't going to win a lot of games here.  He needs to do more of what Wilson did last night in order for us to take the next step. Part of that is Gruden designing plays and part of it is Griffin wanting to run.  Every QB in the league could run Sat game plan. But not many could do what WIlson did last night.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Ryan Leaf and  Tim Couch threw a bunch of interceptions early on too.

 

My point obviously isn't that lots of interceptions will lead to a HOF career. It's that a high turnover rate early on doesn't rule out the possibility that a QB will become a good starter. Especially if you like almost everything else about his game. I think Leaf and Couch had many other deficiencies to go along with the picks. 

[redskins59]

Yes, I do agree that Russell Wilson is a game manager at best.  That defense won't remain elite for long, and he sure as hell will get exposed once he needs to win games by himself.  Seattle's success will sustain as long as their defense remains elite.  Once Wilson needs to win games by himself, that team will look terrible, because I believe 100% that Wilson is not a good QB.  Yes, he doesn't make many mistakes.  And yes, RG3 is that type of QB.

However, I believe Cousins has the potential to be way more than the game-manager type.

[MattFancy]

We gave up 3 1's and a 2nd for a game manager? I don't think we would've made that trade if that was the case

 

If we get wins, who the hell cares what we gave up or what kind of QB we have. I want the team to win.

 

Matt Stafford is on pace to have his lowest passing attempts, YPG, and TD totals since his rookie season. Yet, the Lions are 11-4 and in the playoffs. This is the best season record wise the Lions have had under Stafford. You don't need video game numbers from your QB to win every week.

[theTruthTeller]

Peyton Manning threw 3 interceptions three times in his first 9 starts. In those games, he totaled 18 interceptions. In Aikman's first 11 starts, he racked up 18 interceptions and had a 3- and 4-interception game to his credit. 

 

It's a good thing no one pulled the plug on those games after less than a full season of starts, right? 

Of course, there are some little differences:

  Aikman was the second player taken in the draft - so he was going to get more of a chance.

  There was never any doubt that Aikman had an all-pro arm.

  He was on a horrible team.  The previous year, they had been 3-13 and that aging team had been completely blown up when Jimmy Johnson took over.  Cousins has DJax and Garcon as WRs and Morris to keep the other team honest.  All have been all-pro.  Aikman had James Dixon, Kelvin Martin and Derrick Shepard (Irvin was injured for the first 10 games and gimpy for the last 6).  The rest of the team had been blown up - his only decent running back was Paul Palmer who had 400+ yards.  The second leading rusher on the team: Troy Aikman with 300 yards.

  He had David Shula as his OC. 'Nuf said.

  Aikman went from 0-11 to 7-8 to 7-5 to 13-3.

 

  Cousins is in his third year.  Contrary to popular belief, he isn't cryongenically frozen between starts.  I wouldn't expect him to be as savvy as a third year full-time starter, but he's not a rookie either and shouldn't be evaluated as a rookie. He needs to play like a veteran or he is of no value to the Skins or any other team.  He had a legit chance this year.  That's all you can ask for.

[MattFancy]

Last night Wilson dominated the game against one of the best defenses in the NFL.  A game manager does not do what he did. Wilson is never going to have Drew Brees stats.  That's not the what their offense is. But he's a playmaker. He makes plays for their offense and it works for them. He does things that doesn't show up in the stat sheet.  He's also a 3rd round draft pick and never complains about running.

 

I do hope Griffin gets to going back to running a little more if he's the starter next year. Just having him sit back  and throw short passes and a couple deep balls isn't going to win a lot of games here.  He needs to do more of what Wilson did last night in order for us to take the next step. Part of that is Gruden designing plays and part of it is Griffin wanting to run.  Every QB in the league could run Sat game plan. But not many could do what WIlson did last night.

 

Yes, Wilson played really well last night, not taking that away from him. Just saying that he and the Seahawks win games without him having to do that every game. I'd love to see Griffin have games like that and he's certainly capable of doing it. My stance is that you don't need QBs to do that every single game. Play good defense, run the ball and be efficeint in the passing game. That's the formula for success.

 

Would you rather win like we did against the Eagles on Saturday or lose like we did against the Eagles in Week 3?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

well...except those 2 showed to be alot better then Kirk Cousins did in the time frame he had....I would love for im to prove me wrong, I would. I hope hes here when training camp starts with an improved O-line and then they can have a QB competition. But as it stands right now, Cousins freezes and gets worse under pressure...Manning and Aikman...not so much. They showed they can handle the pressure. Cousins showed he buckles. Thats why the plug was pulled.

 

Sometimes facts help during these discussions...

 

Neither Manning nor Aikman outplayed Cousins. 

 

Cousins' first 14 games: 18 TDs/19 INTs and a 77.5 rating

Aikman's first 11 games: 9 TDs/18 INTs and a 55.7 rating (Aikman's next season wasn't much better 11/18/66.6)

Manning's first 16 games: 26 TDs/28INTs and a 71.2 rating

 

So...by all accounts, Cousins is showing better than those two guys on teams that are similarly as bad. Unless you are going with the very intangible and qualitative "they had ice water in their veins" argument that none of us are qualified to assess, I don't see what you're basing your opinion on. 

[MattFancy]

Sometimes facts help during these discussions...

 

Neither Manning nor Aikman outplayed Cousins. 

 

Cousins' first 14 games: 18 TDs/19 INTs and a 77.5 rating

Aikman's first 11 games: 9 TDs/18 INTs and a 55.7 rating (Aikman's next season wasn't much better 11/18/66.6)

Manning's first 16 games: 26 TDs/28INTs and a 71.2 rating

 

So...by all accounts, Cousins is showing better than those two guys on teams that are similarly as bad. Unless you are going with the very intangible and qualitative "they had ice water in their veins" argument that none of us are qualified to assess, I don't see what you're basing your opinion on. 

 

Good stats to back up your argument. However, you have to remember, Aikman's and Manning's rookie years were in totally different eras than the pass happy league we see now. Not discrediting Cousins' stats, just saying that when looking at QBs from different eras, it's hard to say well look at the TDs/yards without factoring in back then, the league wasn't nearly the passing league it is now.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Good stats to back up your argument. However, you have to remember, Aikman's and Manning's rookie years were in totally different eras than the pass happy league we see now. Not discrediting Cousins' stats, just saying that when looking at QBs from different eras, it's hard to say well look at the TDs/yards without factoring in back then, the league wasn't nearly the passing league it is now.

 

I don't really know how yards are factored into QBR, so that might be a good point. Still, the TD/INT ratio is what most people are focusing on here. I think it's clear to the eye test that Cousins moves the team up and down the field very effectively. The counter argument has always been that he throws too many interceptions. 

 

So, my argument is simply that some very effective QBs needed more than 9 starts and a handful of relief appearances to overcome an upside down TD/INT ratio. 

[Fat Stupid Loser]

You know who else has won games this year as a game manager? Russell Wilson. And you can't tell me he's not a game manager.

 

He has 7, yes 7 games with under 200yds passing and another 2 where he threw for 201 and 202. Griffin "only" threw for 220yds against Philly, Wilson has 5 games with over 220yds passing. Wanna know how many Griffin has this season? 4. He's also played way less games. Also has 7 games with 0 or 1 TD pass.

 

That's great that Kirk threw for 345 and 3 TDs against Philly back in Week 3. We also lost the game. I'll take Griffin's stats and a win any day. Works for Seattle.

Well it seems there are two ways to do it. Build a great team around a below average to average QB and let the QB not lose games for you, or find a QB that can do more with less and build what you can around him.

 

So the debate here becomes which QB on this team who currently sucks marbles, is more likely to overcome his deficiencies in a timely enough manner to matter. Griffin with his big strong, sexy arm and muscley fast legs who is woefully behind in everything else an NFL QB is expected to do or Cousins who is stunningly average physically and has a significant turnover issue. He does however run the offense at a MUCH higher level, til he implodes.

 

Neither have shown that they can carry this team. For the love of God, 2012 could not be less relevant. Kyle was a genius that year and we ran him out on a rail. Who is more likely to excel with more time and an improved o-line and defense? Both will do better in that situation. I think Kirk is more likely to excel. He is the best QB on the team. Not saying much, admittedly, but he is the best.

 

Griff had an amazingly average game yesterday. But because he was so much better than his last year and a half of suckage, everyone is excited again. Please. Jason Campbell had 4 good games a year too. I was called a Fat Stupid Loser for two years because of my assessment of Jason before anyone was ready to accept it. Now my assessments of Jason are accepted as universal truths. Griff is not going to make the jump. He could, its just so unlikely. Its sad, I like him. He is the kind of guy I want to see succeed, especially for my team. Kirk is more likely to make the jump. He may not, but he is more likely.

 

Right now, our defense is good enough for that most weeks. If we can improve the defense, we won't need video game stats out of the QB position every week.

What?

[MattFancy]

Well it seems there are two ways to do it. Build a great team around a below average to average QB and let the QB not lose games for you, or find a QB that can do more with less and build what you can around him.

 

So the debate here becomes which QB on this team who currently sucks marbles, is more likely to overcome his deficiencies in a timely enough manner to matter. Griffin with his big strong, sexy arm and muscley fast legs who is woefully behind in everything else an NFL QB is expected to do or Cousins who is stunningly average physically and has a significant turnover issue. He does however run the offense at a MUCH higher level, til he implodes.

 

Neither have shown that they can carry this team. For the love of God, 2012 could not be less relevant. Kyle was a genius that year and we ran him out on a rail. Who is more likely to excel with more time and an improved o-line and defense? Both will do better in that situation. I think Kirk is more likely to excel. He is the best QB on the team. Not saying much, admittedly, but he is the best.

 

Griff had an amazingly average game yesterday. But because he was so much better than his last year and a half of suckage, everyone is excited again. Please. Jason Campbell had 4 good games a year too. I was called a Fat Stupid Loser for two years because of my assessment of Jason before anyone was ready to accept it. Now my assessments of Jason are accepted as universal truths. Griff is not going to make the jump. He could, its just so unlikely. Its sad, I like him. He is the kind of guy I want to see succeed, especially for my team. Kirk is more likely to make the jump. He may not, but he is more likely.

 

 

I don't have the time to go through everything, but Griffin last year from a numbers standpoint, wasn't that bad. No, he was far from what he was in 2012, but it wasn't terrible. So to say he's sucked for the last year and a half isn't quite accuracte, but that would get in the way of a good narrative.

 

So what have you seen from Cousins that says he is the guy to build around? Is it the 1-7 mark as a starter? The 19 INTs in the 14 games he's played?

 

What?

 

Typo. Defense is NOT good enough

[MartinC]

Honestly, the exact same arguement could be made on Griffin's behalf too.

 Yes, Cousins threw it in the dirt on 4th against Philly, but Griffin has done the same exact thing.

 

 Like Bang said, all 3 have something to offer the team, and are all worthy of keeping next season. Its not bashing Griffin or praising Cousins, but the thread is about Cousins and his future, and it should, at least for next year, be on the Redskins roster.

 

But if anyone wants to make an arguement for getting rid of Cousins, remember, the same arguement can be made about Griffin as well. The only difference is Griffin has had by far more starts than Cousins.

You can certainly make an argument against Griffin but it's not the exact same argument I made against Cousins. Griffin does quite well on 3rd downs and his stats are very consistent from first half to second half. The issues Griffin has around pocket presence and throwing with anticipation are very real and may or may not be areas he can improve but I would argue they are more coachable than folding under the pressure of game situations.

[lovemaskins]

I don't really know how yards are factored into QBR, so that might be a good point. Still, the TD/INT ratio is what most people are focusing on here. I think it's clear to the eye test that Cousins moves the team up and down the field very effectively. The counter argument has always been that he throws too many interceptions. 

 

So, my argument is simply that some very effective QBs needed more than 9 starts and a handful of relief appearances to overcome an upside down TD/INT ratio. 

Like Rex Grossman.  Sounds great, sign me up for that again. 

[Brokenstriker]

A dude that age going into his fourth year in the NFL....how much more is there to learn about him? How much better can he get?

 

Interesting question ...

 

Let's ask Steve Young ... or Robert Griffin for that matter ... heck even Joe Theismann ... his first season as the Skins starting QB was his fifth NFL season after 3 CFL seasons.  He was 29.

[Fat Stupid Loser]

I don't have the time to go through everything, but Griffin last year from a numbers standpoint, wasn't that bad. No, he was far from what he was in 2012, but it wasn't terrible. So to say he's sucked for the last year and a half isn't quite accuracte, but that would get in the way of a good narrative.

 

So what have you seen from Cousins that says he is the guy to build around? Is it the 1-7 mark as a starter? The 19 INTs in the 14 games he's played?

 

Typo. Defense is NOT good enough

I don't know if Kirk is the guy to build around. I'd be happy if a superior option presented itself over the offseason without giving anything up. I don't see anyone out there right now to do that. Kirk is the best QB on the team. That's why. He runs the offense at a much higher level in between implosions. If the implosions are felt by coaching to be correctable, he is the guy currently on the team to roll with. If they think its a genetic disorder of his, well, you can't beat genetics. Time to move on.

 

Robert's stats last year... take enough snaps in a season and you'll produce some stats. Some will make you look middle of the pack. He looked the same last year that he looks this year. Lost. He is under contract. Keep him, coach him up. Let them compete in a true, open competition and watch another sucky year next year.

[Rskins06]

Yes. Works in Seattle and KC. Worked for years in Pittsburgh. Hell, Eli was pretty much that during the Giants 2 Super Bowl runs.

 

Right now, our defense is not good enough for that most weeks. If we can improve the defense, we won't need video game stats out of the QB position every week.

So now we are happy with RG3 (2nd overall pick) just being a game manager? Oh, how the scale continues to slide on expectations for him.

Interesting question ...

 

Let's ask Steve Young ... or Robert Griffin for that matter.

Steve Young was Joe Montana's backup for 4 years, wonder if RG3 would be ok with that? He should be!

You can certainly make an argument against Griffin but it's not the exact same argument I made against Cousins. Griffin does quite well on 3rd downs and his stats are very consistent from first half to second half. The issues Griffin has around pocket presence and throwing with anticipation are very real and may or may not be areas he can improve but I would argue they are more coachable than folding under the pressure of game situations.

Stats do not support your Griffin does quite well on 3rd downs statement. He, just like KC and CM struggle on 3rd downs.

[MattFancy]

So now we are happy with RG3 (2nd overall pick) just being a game manager? Oh, how the scale continues to slide on expectations for him.

 

I'm happy with a team that wins. Whether our QB throws for 500yds or 200yds, as long as we win, that's all I care about it.

[Alexa]

Yes, Wilson played really well last night, not taking that away from him. Just saying that he and the Seahawks win games without him having to do that every game. I'd love to see Griffin have games like that and he's certainly capable of doing it. My stance is that you don't need QBs to do that every single game. Play good defense, run the ball and be efficeint in the passing game. That's the formula for success.

 

Would you rather win like we did against the Eagles on Saturday or lose like we did against the Eagles in Week 3?

Oh I'm taking the win. My point is we're not going to win many games being outgained by 200 yards, not converting 3rd downs and having the other team run almost 80 plays. But the week 3 loss was not because the QB didn't make plays. It was because the defense and special teams were terrible.

[JSSkinz]

Yes, Wilson played really well last night, not taking that away from him. Just saying that he and the Seahawks win games without him having to do that every game. I'd love to see Griffin have games like that and he's certainly capable of doing it. My stance is that you don't need QBs to do that every single game. Play good defense, run the ball and be efficeint in the passing game. That's the formula for success.

 

Would you rather win like we did against the Eagles on Saturday or lose like we did against the Eagles in Week 3?

 

Every-time I watch Wilson I see him making huge game changing plays for his team, his intangibles are off the charts and if I were Wilson I wouldn't want Kapernick, Rg3 or any of the other sputtering young Qb's names used in the same sentence because they aren't even close.

[Rskins06]

I'm happy with a team that wins. Whether our QB throws for 500yds or 200yds, as long as we win, that's all I care about it.

we all want a team that wins, that is not what the debate is. I don't want our 2nd overall pick to be a game manager, I want our 2nd overall pick to be able to take OVER a game, not just manage it. We can find a game manager anywhere, Orton, Fitzpatrick, Shaub, etc. if you compare both (honestly, totally non-biased) KC and RG3, who is closer to being a very good QB? Who has the least amount of flaws to work with?

Not potentially, but right now.

[MattFancy]

Oh I'm taking the win. My point is we're not going to win many games being outgained by 200 yards, not converting 3rd downs and having the other team run almost 80 plays. But the week 3 loss was not because the QB didn't make plays. It was because the defense and special teams were terrible.

 

That's why I said we need to shore up the other aspects of this team too. We saw when Cousins threw for all those yards in the 1st game, it didn't matter because of the defense being so bad. If we can get the defense to just being league average, I think that will go a long way for this team. Not sure how quickly that can happen, but that's all I'm asking for at this point.