Thoughts on Cousins and the next few weeks

[MartinC]

Stats do not support your Griffin does quite well on 3rd downs statement. He, just like KC and CM struggle on 3rd downs.

On 3rd down and 3-8 RGIII averages over 10 yards per attempt and has a rating in the 90's. Kirk averages 5 yards per attempt and has a rating in the low 40's.

They are both pretty bad on 3rd and over 10 but that's more about our inability to pass protect than anything IMO.

[ZRagone]

Ugg, I absolutely hate terms like "game manager".

You know who else is a "game manager"?

Peyton Manning.

He tends to not make a lot of risky plays. He tends to take what the defense gives him as opposed to forcing throws. He tries to play within the game plan as opposed to making things happen on the shouldres of his own talent.

"Game Manager" needs to stop being used as some kind of ridiculous insult. That's not just talking about the Griffin and Cousins debate, that's in general.

"Game Manager" is simply a mentality of how to play the quarterback position, much like "Gunslinger" is a mentality

A "Game Manager" isn't someone who is inherently incapable of making big plays, it's someone who generally isn't going to make big plays by taking gambles or working off script.

And it's quite possible to be a mix of a lot of different mentalities and a lot of different STYLES.

I love the Russel Wilson mold of QB. A game manager guy who has the gumption to make 2 to 3 off schedule plays as gambles/when things break down, and has the talent to make those plays successful.

[JoeWolf990]

I said that we could not trade him. I just don't think we are going to release him.

I think we are. He has no value

And isnt good.

[ZRagone]

Kirk Cousins will not be on this roster next year.

With the way Gruden has been talking about him, it's possible. But I think it would be a mistake. He's got legitimate potential to be a good player in this league I think, and he's still on a very cheap rookie contract. There's absolutely no harm bringing him into camp next year and letting him compete to some degree.

Going into camp next year my hope is it's Griffin, Cousins, a vet (McCoy or other), and a late round / UDFA project.

 

Basically he has the experience of a rookie.

 

UGG, I hate this argument.

No, no he does not.

He basically has the IN GAME, regular season, experience of a Rookie.

That's it.

He's got 8 more pre-season games under his belt, experience in a playoff game, 2 more training camps, 2 more full seasons of film study and practice, 2 full years of NFL level fitness training, 2 extra years of NFL game prep experience, 2 more years of competing against NFL caliber players, and two extra years of physicla maturation.

Those things are all impactful.

That doesn't take away that Cousins is definitely still young in his career, and is different than a guy whose been in as the starter of a team for 3 years. But it is substantially different than what a rookie is working with.

Cousins has showed more in 8 games than RG3 has in 30 games.

Since you've included all of Griffin's games here, I disagree entirely. There were a number of games in 2012 that showed me far more from Griffin than anything I've seen out of Cousins.

Now, talking THIS YEAR I've seen more from Cousins that makes me think he has a better chance of being a good QB in a shorter amount of time than Griffin.

But taking all their starts, Griffin has definitely shown me more than Cousins. However, he's also left me with some significant questions that Cousin's hasn't, such as the injury concerns and what impact they've had on his game physically and mentally.

[Hersh]

You know who else has won games this year as a game manager? Russell Wilson. And you can't tell me he's not a game manager.

 

 

You have no idea what you are talking about if you think that or you simply don't watch games he plays in. He is 17th in passing yards this year, but he also has 854 yards rushing. That means he has more total yards than the Golden Boy. Dude goes out and wins games he just does it differently from traditional stay in the pocket QBs and because his team has a great defense, they don't need to try to score 40 points a game. He's not the same as an Aaron Rodgers type QB, but that doesn't mean he is a game manager.

 

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

[MattFancy]

You have no idea what you are talking about if you think that or you simply don't watch games he plays in. He is 17th in passing yards this year, but he also has 854 yards rushing. That means he has more total yards than the Golden Boy. Dude goes out and wins games he just does it differently from traditional stay in the pocket QBs and because his team has a great defense, they don't need to try to score 40 points a game. He's not the same as an Aaron Rodgers type QB, but that doesn't mean he is a game manager.

 

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

 

Ok. Go look at Wilson's stats last year when they won the Super Bowl. Less rushing yards, passing yards less as well. Teams can win without their QBs have to throw for 300+ and 3 TDs every week. Wilson is exhibit A. Dude has 4 career 300+yd games. Griffin has 6.

 

I would love a QB who can put up those Manning/Rodgers/Luck/Brees stats every week. I'm just saying, it isn't always needed. If you're looking for QBs with elite passing numbers, Wilson isn't it. That's my whole point.

[Hersh]

Ok. Go look at Wilson's stats last year when they won the Super Bowl. Less rushing yards, passing yards less as well. Teams can win without their QBs have to throw for 300+ and 3 TDs every week. Wilson is exhibit A. Dude has 4 career 300+yd games. Griffin has 6.

 

I would love a QB who can put up those Manning/Rodgers/Luck/Brees stats every week. I'm just saying, it isn't always needed. If you're looking for QBs with elite passing numbers, Wilson isn't it. That's my whole point.

 

 

The way Wilson throws the ball, if he threw the ball as much as some of those guys, he would put up huge numbers. That definitely wasn't the case his first year and probably some last year. This year, you can see the progress in the way he plays. I think Rodgers is on a different level from anyone else these days but all those other guys simply throw it more now. And no, I'm not saying he would be Peyton in his prime, but Wilson could definitely put up big numbers.

 

He torched a good Arizona defense yesterday and it wasn't cause of screen passes going for long yardage. It was the kind of 15-30 yard throws I would love to see a Redskins QB make.

 

I watch Seattle cause Wilson went to my alma mater and it's fun watching good football.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Ok. Go look at Wilson's stats last year when they won the Super Bowl. Less rushing yards, passing yards less as well. Teams can win without their QBs have to throw for 300+ and 3 TDs every week. Wilson is exhibit A. Dude has 4 career 300+yd games. Griffin has 6.

 

I would love a QB who can put up those Manning/Rodgers/Luck/Brees stats every week. I'm just saying, it isn't always needed. If you're looking for QBs with elite passing numbers, Wilson isn't it. That's my whole point.

The Hawks don't need Wilson to win games. Their defense beats you up and when you are finished the Hawk offense comes in and closes the deal. Wilson is not a good thrower but he knows how not to loose a game. If we put Cousins on that team he would be just as good as Wilson.

[MattFancy]

The Hawks don't need Wilson to win games. Their defense beats you up and when you are finished the Hawk offense comes in and closes the deal. Wilson is not a good thrower but he knows how not to loose a game. If we put Cousins on that team he would be just as good as Wilson.

 

And that is more or less my point. Big picture, QB isn't a huge problem on this team and won't really matter until we get a better OL and defense.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Of course, there are some little differences:

  Aikman was the second player taken in the draft - so he was going to get more of a chance.

  There was never any doubt that Aikman had an all-pro arm.

  He was on a horrible team.  The previous year, they had been 3-13 and that aging team had been completely blown up when Jimmy Johnson took over.  Cousins has DJax and Garcon as WRs and Morris to keep the other team honest.  All have been all-pro.  Aikman had James Dixon, Kelvin Martin and Derrick Shepard (Irvin was injured for the first 10 games and gimpy for the last 6).  The rest of the team had been blown up - his only decent running back was Paul Palmer who had 400+ yards.  The second leading rusher on the team: Troy Aikman with 300 yards.

  He had David Shula as his OC. 'Nuf said.

  Aikman went from 0-11 to 7-8 to 7-5 to 13-3.

 

  Cousins is in his third year.  Contrary to popular belief, he isn't cryongenically frozen between starts.  I wouldn't expect him to be as savvy as a third year full-time starter, but he's not a rookie either and shouldn't be evaluated as a rookie. He needs to play like a veteran or he is of no value to the Skins or any other team.  He had a legit chance this year.  That's all you can ask for.

Ya Cousins had his chance but our O line and defense and special teams stunk so he was always playing from behind with poor starting field position.

[50yrSKINSfan]

what team would want to trade for a back up QB?

you guys arent even being rational

At this late date, after last nite I bet the Cards wish they had Cousins

[Xameil]

Sometimes facts help during these discussions...

 

Neither Manning nor Aikman outplayed Cousins. 

 

Cousins' first 14 games: 18 TDs/19 INTs and a 77.5 rating

Aikman's first 11 games: 9 TDs/18 INTs and a 55.7 rating (Aikman's next season wasn't much better 11/18/66.6)

Manning's first 16 games: 26 TDs/28INTs and a 71.2 rating

 

So...by all accounts, Cousins is showing better than those two guys on teams that are similarly as bad. Unless you are going with the very intangible and qualitative "they had ice water in their veins" argument that none of us are qualified to assess, I don't see what you're basing your opinion on.

Stats don't tell it all since some of those TDs came in easy games...what is more telling to me is how someone handles pressure, and how they react when things go wrong....Kirk cousins crumbled....the other ones, not so much.

[Alexa]

Stats don't tell it all since some of those TDs came in easy games...what is more telling to me is how someone handles pressure, and how they react when things go wrong....Kirk cousins crumbled....the other ones, not so much.

If Kirk were doing this after 35 or 40 starts then fine. But he still very young in his career playing wise.

[Brokenstriker]

updated thought on Cousins ... post Griffin defeat of the Eagles ...

 

The offense has only looked "really good" this season when Cousins played QB ...

 

With Griffin as the QB the offense is unable to put together consistent drives ... its all or nothing and too often its nothing

 

With McCoy the offense decent but very unremarkable ... he's somewhere between Cousins and Griffin but much better than Griffin has been making the called plays work and moving the ball with consistency.

 

Cousins has to kill the INT tendancy and get some psych help to deal with things when they go wrong ...

 

Griffin has to learn how to read defenses, deal with pass rush, move in the pocket, scramble (not just run for his life), make the throw so the ball arrives as soon as the receiver is open, use the clock better, pay attention to the clock, ...

 

McCoy needs to capitalize on every opportunity because he's not going to go big very often (you have to admit though he's missed Jackson deep less often than Griffin has) ... and he needs to play error free (more than the other two because his recovery ability isn't as good as theirs is).

[50yrSKINSfan]

If Kirk were doing this after 35 or 40 starts then fine. But he still very young in his career playing wise.

Both of our QBs are young. Most QBs don't smell the field for years never alone start. It will take 4+years to mold RG3 into a quality NFL pocket QB so give both of them time.

[KFC]

Sigh. It's pointless to argue with RG3 supporters when yesterday's perform by RG3 is seen as an argument FOR him starting.

I am starting to feel like our fans have become Jets fans: we have no actual idea what good QB play looks like. I actually watch other games, in fact I watch many more non-Redskins games than Redskins game. Guess I just watch a lot of football, but I can tell you RG3 and McCoy are garbage. That's what bothered me so much about the McCoy bandwagon; Redskins fans are so impatient and prone to buy into "the only stat that matters is W-L, rah rah" BS that we gave up on trying to evaluate the first QB in the Snyder era who showed signs of being a top-notch pocket QB.

I hope Gruden saw something I didn't and determined that starting Kirk now was detrimental to his development, and his plan is to give him a shot to win the job in training camp and the pre season. I really, REALLY liked what flashes I saw from Cousins.

[Taylor703]

Sigh. It's pointless to argue with RG3 supporters when yesterday's perform by RG3 is seen as an argument FOR him starting.

I am starting to feel like our fans have become Jets fans: we have no actual idea what good QB play looks like. I actually watch other games, in fact I watch many more non-Redskins games than Redskins game. Guess I just watch a lot of football, but I can tell you RG3 and McCoy are garbage. That's what bothered me so much about the McCoy bandwagon; Redskins fans are so impatient and prone to buy into "the only stat that matters is W-L, rah rah" BS that we gave up on trying to evaluate the first QB in the Snyder era who showed signs of being a top-notch pocket QB.

I hope Gruden saw something I didn't and determined that starting Kirk now was detrimental to his development, and his plan is to give him a shot to win the job in training camp and the pre season. I really, REALLY liked what flashes I saw from Cousins.

RGIII is garbage but the dude who was leading the league in interceptions at the time of his benching is going to be good. And RGIII fans are the delusional ones lmao.

[KFC]

Interceptions are the only metric for gauging a developing QB, yes.

Because we have such a great QB in Bob Griffin, and such a good team, actually a team that is an INT-free QB away from a playoff berth, that the LAST thing we can afford is a young QB who throws picks. Because ALL the great QBs were INT-free in their first 16 starts. Peyton Manning only threw like 3 his entire rookie season. Or 28, forget which.

It's funny that RG3 critics can point to DOZENS of big and little things he does or can't do that make him a bad QB but the only thing I hear from Kirk Cousins detractors is that he throws picks and can't win games.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Like Rex Grossman.  Sounds great, sign me up for that again. 

 

I can't tell if you're trying to be clever or actually have a point. Either way...happy to further discuss if you have something to actually add. 

[bradboyd80]

Thought this was worth posting.  From the coach's mouth: 

 

"That is the No. 1 factor, and that is it," Gruden said. "Obviously you look at the production and all that stuff, and what he could've done maybe, but winning football games is the only thing that matters to me for a quarterback. And it doesn't matter if they go 12-for-24 for 80 yards and we win, or if they go 28-for-35 for 400 [yards] and we lose, you'd rather have the 12-for-24. The ability to manage a game, stay away from the big turnovers and get the W is all that counts."

 

The one thing Cousins could not do, was avoid the big turnovers. This explains why Gruden benched him, and why he's been inactive for so long (until the Eagles game).

 

Article here.  http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/14120/jay-gruden-measures-qb-play-by-wins-losses

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Stats don't tell it all since some of those TDs came in easy games...what is more telling to me is how someone handles pressure, and how they react when things go wrong....Kirk cousins crumbled....the other ones, not so much.

 

So, the "ice water in his veins" thing. Cool. 

 

You realize that Peyton Manning was considered a choker until the mid- to late-2000s right? I'm also pretty sure he would have had a much worse reputation after 9 starts (where Cousins is right now) when he had 18 interceptions to go with his 12 TDs. 

 

If you can somehow articulate how you've come to the conclusion that Manning (or anyone) handled pressure better than Cousins through roughly the first half a season of starts, I'd love to hear it. They all have lost games, turned the ball over, etc. 

[50yrSKINSfan]

Sigh. It's pointless to argue with RG3 supporters when yesterday's perform by RG3 is seen as an argument FOR him starting.

I am starting to feel like our fans have become Jets fans: we have no actual idea what good QB play looks like. I actually watch other games, in fact I watch many more non-Redskins games than Redskins game. Guess I just watch a lot of football, but I can tell you RG3 and McCoy are garbage. That's what bothered me so much about the McCoy bandwagon; Redskins fans are so impatient and prone to buy into "the only stat that matters is W-L, rah rah" BS that we gave up on trying to evaluate the first QB in the Snyder era who showed signs of being a top-notch pocket QB.

I hope Gruden saw something I didn't and determined that starting Kirk now was detrimental to his development, and his plan is to give him a shot to win the job in training camp and the pre season. I really, REALLY liked what flashes I saw from Cousins.

When Ray Perkins had Steve Young in Tampa he said he was garbage and never be a NFL QB. Today Steve young is in the HOF. I am not a RG3 or a KC supporter but I do know you have to give young QBs time before you judge them.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

RGIII is garbage but the dude who was leading the league in interceptions at the time of his benching is going to be good. And RGIII fans are the delusional ones lmao.

 

But that's not really the argument most of us are making. I'm simply stating that interceptions have been a very common symptom early in a QB's career...even many QBs who develop into great ones. They are things that have been statistically shown to sometimes decrease as QBs gain experience and get more experience. I've provided two quick examples (Manning and Aikman) and could cite others (Elway, etc.). 

 

I'm not guaranteeing that Cousins will become a good QB or saying it's just a matter of time until he's the next Manning. Just that it's relatively typical for QBs to struggle with interceptions early in their careers. 

 

This thread isn't about Griffin, but the flip side is a QB who hasn't shown that he can move the ball through the air nearly as well. I would assume there are stats out there about those guys developing into great QBs too and would be glad to review them. But, my points about Cousins have nothing to do with Griffin developing into a good QB. Those two things are mutually exclusive. 

[KFC]

Thought this was worth posting.  From the coach's mouth: 

 

 

The one thing Cousins could not do, was avoid the big turnovers. This explains why Gruden benched him, and why he's been inactive for so long (until the Eagles game).

 

Article here.  http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/14120/jay-gruden-measures-qb-play-by-wins-losses

I think that rational is lazy if you are actually trying to develope a QB for the future. You have to ride the ups and downs and gauge his play off not just the W-L column. Not everyone is going to start off on a great team like the Steelers and go 15-1 their rookie year like Roethlisberger. Most of the time your team sucks big time (part of the reason they're giving you a shot) and you have little talent around you to boost your play. Ala Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman, etc.

I'm not guaranteeing Kirk Cousins is going to be amazing. But I say WHAT DO WE HAVE TO LOSE?!

The team sucks. There is very, very marginal talent. Kerrigan, T. Williams, Morris, D. Jackson, and K. Robinson are the only guys I can think of who have above average talent. The rest of the team is either over the hill, still developing, average, or plain sucks. Our depth sucks. There is little indication we are drafting and developing many good players.

Stop thinking that if we only give Bob Griffin another shot we're going to the playoffs. We need to recognize that we are in rebuilding mode and be comfortable developing someone (perhaps Cousins) who has the trappings to be a potential Franchise QB. Bob will never be that guy.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Thought this was worth posting.  From the coach's mouth: 

 

 

The one thing Cousins could not do, was avoid the big turnovers. This explains why Gruden benched him, and why he's been inactive for so long (until the Eagles game).

 

Article here.  http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/14120/jay-gruden-measures-qb-play-by-wins-losses

 

Sure, turnovers are no doubt an issue. And, I will admit, it's possible that he never reduces them. There are plenty of those cases as well. 

 

My point is simply that if you were taking the route of developing a QB without worrying about the short-term wins and losses, the guy furthest along and (in my opinion) most likely to become a long-term, effective starter is the one who consistently moves the chains and puts up points. In my uneducated opinion, it's easier to coach a guy into avoiding interceptions than it is to make him good at reading defenses and moving the chains. 

 

I concede that I could be 1,000% incorrect. It's just my take based on being alive for 37 years and seeing that most humans I've seen can more easily UNLEARN something than LEARN something that doesn't come naturally to them. So, I'd prefer the guy who has all the traits I want plus one that I don't over the guy who is missing a couple traits that I want. Maybe that makes very little sense. HA!