Thoughts on Cousins and the next few weeks

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Kirk is further along then Griffin as a rhythm drop back passer and to bridge that gap Griffin is going to need a coach that is patient and believes in him.

 

Based on what exactly? His 57 percent passer rating and 1:1.1 TD/Int Ratio?

 

I mean, maybe he is better than Griffin. And if he is - as I said - cut them both.

[Fat Stupid Loser]

His skill set still allows him to reach an elite level.  I know people hate the reference, but go back and watch his 2012 games.  Say what you want about the offense (gimmick, one-read, easy to execute, etc).  It still takes the proper read, accuracy and a strong arm to make the throws he made that year.  Add his running ability to that, and you have the potential for a true game-changer at the most important position on the field.  Cousins might be the better pure passing QB right now, but Griffin's "ceiling" is much higher if groomed properly (which it appears Gruden just isn't willing to do).  

Griffin hit his ceiling his senior year in college. Its sad to see because he is our guy and a good guy.

[Rodriggo]

Nope, Gruden has been told he might keep his job but just start the guy we spent almost 1/2 a decades worth of high draft picks on.

 

And this is fact according to who? Kevin Sheehan? :|

[bradboyd80]

I'm not an RGIII guy or a Cousins guy. They could cut them both and I won't cry.

 

But when comparing the two, I have RGIII's 2012 season and everything Cousins has ever done. To be honest, I'm not sure where the evidence is that Cousins is the better pure passing QB. I think they both kind of suck at this particular moment.

 

Here is my question about Cousins in a vacuum: What are we hanging our hopes on? Is there something he has done in his NFL career that makes people say, "Ah.....if he could just do that consistently, we would have something...."

I guess I'm going off everything I read about Cousins having more experience coming from a more pro-style system in college. So he's already better at playing strictly from the pocket. He does take less sacks, so that obviously implies he's making his reads and getting it out faster. I think the first Eagles game is what everyone is hanging their hopes on. His performance that game was pretty good. If he can cut down on the mistakes and subsequent mental breakdowns, then yeah, we might have something.

 

Almost every Redskins fan wanted Shanny fired. This is the product of that. RG3 isn't a good QB and probably wouldn't last 1/2 a season now in that 2012 offense.

Guess I just don't share your opinion of RG3. Put him on a team with a competent coaching staff (i.e. NE, GB, NO) and I bet he turns his game completely around.

 

Griffin hit his ceiling his senior year in college. Its sad to see because he is our guy and a good guy.

It may be that his ceiling was in 2012. Who knows. I'm hoping he turns it around here, because I'm willing to bet he will elsewhere if he leaves.

[Alexa]

Then fire the coach. I don't know if the answer is Griffin. It's probably not Griffin. I know the anwer is not Cousins or McCoy. If Gruden has decided that Cousins is better than Griffin, my suggestion is cut them both.

 

Cousins is 27 and has been in the league for three years. And he came in the league as a fifth year senior. We know who the hell Cousins is.

 

What is this great mystery of Kirk Cousins? He's a mediocre backup.

 

To accept anything else is to deny what we've seen and accept the fact that Shanahan saw something magical three drafts ago and is a still ready to pull a fast one on the league. We would have to accept the fact that Shanahan was wrong about everything during his time here, but really really right about that.

Kirk is 26. How can you tell who is he after 9 starts? Please explain that. And I'm not saying he should be our starting QB. What I'm saying is there's evidence that he can be a really good QB in Jay's offense.  He's also had his struggles, just like Peyton Manning did in his first year of starting. No way would I compare the two, I'm just saying he's shown some promise. Griffin has not shown anything in Jay's offense. But I do think Griffin should be back next year, as should Kirk. I'd prefer to see those two battle for the position.

[planter]

No hurry. We have 3 decent 2nd string QBs. Rotate them , build the foundation (O line/secondary). With a foundation any QB looks better. We start winning...

At that point if no QB clearly

emerges we rejoin the franchise QB search.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

 

Here is my question about Cousins in a vacuum: What are we hanging our hopes on? Is there something he has done in his NFL career that makes people say, "Ah.....if he could just do that consistently, we would have something...."

 

If he could string together more games like the Jacksonville/Philly two-week streak, that would be something that I'd say "if he could just do that consistently, we would have something..."

 

In those two games, he hit 64% of his passes for almost 700 yards with 5 TDs and 1 INT. Personally, I'd like to see him have more time to shake off the interceptions. That's all. He's started just more than the balance of half a season and has looked promising moving the ball. In 6 of his 9 starts he's thrown for 250+ yards. To me, that's promising enough to keep an eye on. Many good QBs needed 16 or so games to protect the ball better. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

If he could string together more games like the Jacksonville/Philly two-week streak, that would be something that I'd say "if he could just do that consistently, we would have something..."

 

And this is how Scott Mitchell became a multi-millionaire fat guy.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

And this is how Scott Mitchell became a multi-millionaire fat guy.

 

I never said that we should extend his contract. But it's that promise that makes me prefer seeing more Cousins than Griffin for a while. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Kirk is 26. How can you tell who is he after 9 starts?

 

Because he's not very good.

 

What I'm saying is there's evidence that he can be a really good QB in Jay's offense.

 

A. No, there is not.

B. I'm not entirely sure I even know what Jay's offense is. (I've never completely understood the expressions "X's offense" to be honest. Offense seems to be offense to me. Some guys seem to be better at coaching and playcalling than others. Systems seem to be just terminology and other BS that makes us think these guys are geniuses).,

[ThomasRoane]

There's an evolutionary development for QB's in the NFL.  To simplify, let's say there are four phases:

 

1. 1) QB has an idea of what defense he is seeing pre-snap but does not know enough to change the play or protections.  Understands the order of progression of the routes.
2. 2) QB knows what the defense is pre-snap and can get into better protection scheme and/or a better play.  Understands concepts and how they match up vs the defense he is seeing. (i.e. If the defense is in a cover 3 and they have a Smash concept going then he'll probably throw the curl instead of the corner.)
3. 3) QB notices the change in the alignment post-snap and can adjust his progression accordingly.  For example, the defense shows Cover 3 but then changes to Cover 1 or Man free.  Now, the corner on the smash route should be open because the DB has no safety help. 
4. 4) QB Can execute phases 1 - 3 but since he knows what the defense is doing he is good enough to manipulate Safeties with his eyes giving his receivers great match ups.

 

Robert is somewhere between Phase 1 and 2.  He is improving but still not quite sure of what his best options are when applying a route combination (concept) to a particular defense.  And btw, the concepts that Jay runs are pretty much universal. They're not really much different from any other team.  The Smash, Dagger, Curl-Flat, NCAA, etc are even used largely at the college level.  Heck, I use them at the middle school level.  Robert just needs to lose the habit of scrambling when he doesn't like his first look.  He can get there with a lot of practice and study. 

 

Kirk is between Phase 2 and 3.  Which puts him ahead of Robert but he throws a lot of picks because he has not made the full transition to phase 3.  He throws a lot of picks because he sees the pre-snap defense and decides where he is going with the ball.  He doesn't see when the defense changes coverage on the fly and that's why he throws so many picks.  In his mind, the defender should not be there but his decision making process is entirely based on his pre-snap read.

 

Colt is at Phase 3.  He's seen a lot of the combo coverages and tricks that defenses play.  He does a good job of figuring out where to go with the ball based on his post-snap analysis.  His limitations are his arm strength and his ability to stay healthy.  The lack of a big arm is not a huge deal.  Peyton throws ducks now but they get there.  The injury concern is something that the staff will have to consider though.  Same as Robert. 

 

I'd be fine with the team keeping all three around.  Build a solid team around them and let the cream rise to the top.  They don't really fight amongst themselves.  It appears that whoever is the starter he has the support of the other two.  If someone better comes along down the road then great.  But I think the team can compete with these three. 

 

They all have some learning to do and would be better next year in Jay's system.  Which, contrary to the viewpoint of many, is a solid system.  I judge a coaches passing attack primarily on whether or not receivers get open.  If they do then it's on the QB to get on the same page and distribute the ball.  I see guys open every game and it seems like even Robert is buying in now.

[darrelgreenie]

...My question is why would a coach want to be patient with someone who's going into his 4th year and still struggles with dropback passing? I mean what's the pay off with Griffin at this point?...

You mean a coach in general or Jay? The pay off for a coach to develop Griffin is because he has rare physical gifts similar to Aaron Rodgers and the once Griffin develops as a rhythm drop back QB then he could be a pro-bowl caliber QB. That would be the payoff for developing Griffin.

 

But that is a moot point here because Jay seems to either unable or unwilling to build a "bridge" offense to get Griffin from where he is now to where he needs to go. So UNLESS there are major changes to the passing game coaching staff i.e. new OC and new QB coach I don't see Griffin's development continuing here.

[darrelgreenie]

Why does Griffin continue to start over Kirk? Gruden's doing correct?

Griffin starts over Kirk for 2 reasons. Part of Jay's job was to develop Griffin. Cousins was benched due to performance and for Jay to play Kirk over Griffin would be openly admitting that Jay would rather develop Kirk over Griffin which would almost be blatant breach of contract.

[TimmySmith]

Kirk is 26. How can you tell who is he after 9 starts? Please explain that. And I'm not saying he should be our starting QB. What I'm saying is there's evidence that he can be a really good QB in Jay's offense.  He's also had his struggles, just like Peyton Manning did in his first year of starting. No way would I compare the two, I'm just saying he's shown some promise. Griffin has not shown anything in Jay's offense. But I do think Griffin should be back next year, as should Kirk. I'd prefer to see those two battle for the position.

Alexa, the general opinion of RG3 fans is to throw the baby out with the bath water.  Don't look for reason, because you will find none.

They are an angry lot.  Gruden was hired to fix the unfixable, and he has failed so let's get another coach.  Right?  Don't you remember 2012?  Forget injuries and and not wanting out of the game and surgeries and coming back too soon.  None of that could possibly have any relationship to the fact that Robert has not run for a TD in 20 games (since that magical 2012 season) and now cannot outrun a defensive end.   And since RG3 can't do what he used to do and certainly can't what he is now forced to do, let's hate on Kirk because he shows us just how far RG3 is from being a serviceable NFL passer. 

[darrelgreenie]

Then fire the coach. I don't know if the answer is Griffin. It's probably not Griffin. I know the anwer is not Cousins or McCoy. If Gruden has decided that Cousins is better than Griffin, my suggestion is cut them both.

If I was the GM firing Gruden would be on the table. For me Jay has not done a good job in rookie year. But in this instance the Redskins are a victim of their own prior mistakes. If they fired Jay after 1 season the optic would be bad and the narratives of Griffin as coach killer would be a lot to overcome. 

 

If I were the HC then sure my choice would be Griffin, but I'm not Jay is. IF Jay likes Cousins then we should move forward with Kirk or Colt and let them be the "QB of the present" as a complete team is built up around them and draft a QB to develop under Jay in his offense. IF Kirk/Colt  become good enough QBs to be competitive then great. IF not then the developmental QB takes over or proven FA QB comes in and takes the reigns of team that is more ready to contend.

 

But imo you don't start over fresh at QB because the FA QB market is a wasteland and our team isn't a QB away from anything.

[darrelgreenie]

Based on what exactly? His 57 percent passer rating and 1:1.1 TD/Int Ratio?

 

I mean, maybe he is better than Griffin. And if he is - as I said - cut them both.

Kirk has been in a pro-style (iirc a WCO) progression read rhythm drop back offense his entire college career.

 

I AM NOT SAYING Kirk is 'better' then Griffin because its not what I believe. I can't believe you or anyone would think that I think Kirk is better then Griffin. Its actually kinda funny. I think the sky is the limit for Griffin with his skill set I think he could be a top 10 QB.

 

But right now in Jay's offense, at this current stage in their progression Kirk is further along then Griffin.

[bradboyd80]

Alexa, the general opinion of RG3 fans is to throw the baby out with the bath water.  Don't look for reason, because you will find none.

They are an angry lot.  Gruden was hired to fix the unfixable, and he has failed so let's get another coach.  Right?  Don't you remember 2012?  Forget injuries and and not wanting out of the game and surgeries and coming back too soon.  None of that could possibly have any relationship to the fact that Robert has not run for a TD in 20 games (since that magical 2012 season) and now cannot outrun a defensive end.   And since RG3 can't do what he used to do and certainly can't what he is now forced to do, let's hate on Kirk because he shows us just how far RG3 is from being a serviceable NFL passer. 

Do you even read the garbage you're spewing before you hit the "post" button?  My god.....

[JSSkinz]

Here is my question about Cousins in a vacuum: What are we hanging our hopes on? Is there something he has done in his NFL career that makes people say, "Ah.....if he could just do that consistently, we would have something...."

 

Its a great question, here are some numbers I put together on Nov 28th so some of the compared stats may have changed.

 

 

As of Nov 28th Kirk Cousins is still 20th in the NFL this year for completions over 20 yards with 27 and he put up that number in just 6 games. Andrew Luck is number one in that category with 57 total pass completions over 20 yards and he has played 11 games, if you do the math Kirk was on pace for 47 by this point which would have made him 2nd in the NFL, even if his numbers went down drastically over the next 5 starts he still would have been around 39-40 which puts him in the top 6 or 7.

 

 

Where it gets real interesting is pass completions over 40 yards, Kirk is still ranked 7th in the NFL with 8, the leader is Aaron Rodgers who has 12.

 

So even with all the "weak arm" talk Kirk is no doubt a play-maker, problem is he makes plays for the defense too(Insert Int joke here).  I will be flat out honest and say I want to see him for 3 reasons.

 

1. He's only played 8 full games, if your gonna say Qb's need to develop then give him a shot.

2. Kirk is the path of least resistance, its seems easier to fix a guy who forces the ball at times and throws picks than someone who needs a full scale makeover.

3. I/we are flat out desperate because if Rg3 doesn't work out it could be years before we land another QB.

[Larry]

 

What I'm saying is there's evidence that [Kirk] can be a really good QB in Jay's offense.

A. No, there is not.

 

Funny. I watched the Philly game, this year. (One of the few I actually got to watch, as opposed to listen to.) And he sure looked like a really good QB, then.

Statistically, he played very well against Seattle, too. Although I didn't get to watch that game.

That's two really good games, against two really good defenses.

Now, maybe he's not real consistent.

But I'd say that yes, that really does prove that he can be a good QB, with this coach.

(Something which I'm not sure our other 2 QBs can say. Has there been a game this year, where the RG3skins looked good? (Was he the QB against Jacksonville?)

[bradboyd80]

Funny. I watched the Philly game, this year. (One of the few I actually got to watch, as opposed to listen to.) And he sure looked like a really good QB, then.

Statistically, he played very well against Seattle, too. Although I didn't get to watch that game.

That's two really good games, against two really good defenses.

They were both good performances, no doubt. But I wouldn't say Philly is a really good defense. They are ranked near the bottom of the league in yardage and points per game. I can see the argument against Seattle, but just not Philly. 

[Alexa]

You mean a coach in general or Jay? The pay off for a coach to develop Griffin is because he has rare physical gifts similar to Aaron Rodgers and the once Griffin develops as a rhythm drop back QB then he could be a pro-bowl caliber QB. That would be the payoff for developing Griffin.

 

But that is a moot point here because Jay seems to either unable or unwilling to build a "bridge" offense to get Griffin from where he is now to where he needs to go. So UNLESS there are major changes to the passing game coaching staff i.e. new OC and new QB coach I don't see Griffin's development continuing here.

Ok, here's where you lose me. He has rare gifts like Aaron Rodgers? I just don't see it at all.

Arm talent/ release Rodgers

Accuracy Rodgers

Anticipation Rodgers

Pocket Skills Rodgers

Footwork Rodgers

Reading defenses Rodgers

Read option Griffin

[Larry]

They were both good performances, no doubt. But I wouldn't say Philly is a really good defense. They are ranked near the bottom of the league in yardage and points per game. I can see the argument against Seattle, but just not Philly. 

 

Yeah.  Although, as we've seen (playing them twice a year), against a good offense, Chip Kelly's hurry up game results in both teams having more possessions and more plays. 

 

They sure looked like a great defense, to me.  I was envious of the way their entire D swarms towards the ball.  I thought they all looked like maniacs. 

[darrelgreenie]

...Ok, here's where you lose me. He has rare gifts like Aaron Rodgers

If you are lost by my comparison in skillset between Griffin and Rodgers it's because you choose to be....so I can't help you hoss

[SkinsFTW]

I wouldn't say Philly is a really good defense. They are ranked near the bottom of the league in yardage and points per game. I can see the argument against Seattle, but just not Philly. 

 

So when RG3 doesn't put up anywhere near 34 tomorrow is the Philly defense going to suddenly become elite?

[bradboyd80]

So when RG3 doesn't put up anywhere near 34 tomorrow is the Philly defense going to suddenly become elite?

Nope.