NFL.com: Cousins outplaying Griffin?

[ExoDus84]

Good stuff RG3Hunna, it's like the Shanahan's didn't try to develop RG3 at all. They almost exploited him for their own gain, playing him when injured, for instance. Making him run the ball a lot, including the triple option where he was exposed for big hits.

 

You say RG3 was exploited. I say they perhaps just played to his strengths, which are his speed, and ability outside the pocket. They didn't try to turn him into something they obviously thought he wasn't: a drop back, pocket passer.

 

They tried to cater the offense to his strengths, instead of molding him to something he hasn't been. I think many teams adjust their offense to support the QB's strengths.

[RandyHolt]

You say RG3 was exploited. I say they perhaps just played to his strengths, which are his speed, and ability outside the pocket. They didn't try to turn him into something they obviously thought he wasn't: a drop back, pocket passer.

 

They tried to cater the offense to his strengths, instead of molding him to something he hasn't been. I think many teams adjust their offense to support the QB's strengths.

I may certainly be wrong.

 

But others may argue football players have been exploited for decades, asked or perhaps forced to play when injured. Perhaps even given the odd pain pill to get through the games.

 

Cousins lets just all agree for the sake of a rational discussion, was a viable backup last year, or even the year before. Yet was shunned, when Robert was clearly very injured, and limited. Both years, and of course, the playoff game. Robert was ailing yet the running plays were still being called, but Cousin's number largely was not. 

 

It was just a very odd situation, but in general, right or wrong, I feel like the Shanahan's did not have Robert's best interests in mind. I use the word exploit. That may be too strong, admittedly.

 

Contrasting one thing you said, I think most teams do NOT adjust their offense to support the QB's strengths. College, sure thing.  We are in Roberts 3rd year, and have yet to see hurry up, yet to see 4 or 5 truly wide. A tiny sample size, sure. Manziel in Cleveland. Forced to huddle up likely his entire career if Kyle remains his coach. Jason Campbell, big heavy slow delivery, we tried to make him into a West Coaster. The game is littered with monumental QB failures, that I think proves they were not used to their strengths. Too often, the priority is to change the QB, usually on day 1.

 

I think teams generally square peg round hole pound away and try and make all QBs cut from the same mold. The smarter ones, think SF and Seattle, didn't, and look where they got.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

You say RG3 was exploited. I say they perhaps just played to his strengths, which are his speed, and ability outside the pocket. They didn't try to turn him into something they obviously thought he wasn't: a drop back, pocket passer.

 

They tried to cater the offense to his strengths, instead of molding him to something he hasn't been. I think many teams adjust their offense to support the QB's strengths.

 

If they thought his strengths were his running, then the Shanahans are more incompetent than I thought. RGIII's main talent was his ability to pick teams apart in a spread, wide open passing game. I assumed they at least watched the guy's tape. Maybe they didn't and just saw "dynamic running QB" which means the Shanahans are every bit as incompetent as Zorn.

[darrelgreenie]

When I imagine an offense built around Griffin's strengths damn if it doesn't look like Chip Kelly's Eagles offense.

Spread, uptempo, zone-read, attacking all over the field

[RedskinsAAFJ]

Yo, this is my 1st post in a long time but I just came to say that I been saying for the last 2 yrs that Cousins is better than RG3 and everyone here laughed at me and ran me off. Now other are seeing what I see. Cousins gives us the best chance to win. RG3 runs too much and will keep getting hurt, now he cant even throw accurate passes for real. I didnt come back to say I told you so but just to say you all gotta do better about putting other people opinions down just cause you dont agree. peace out

[Alexa]

1: >criticizes people for trashing a member of our team

>all the cult of cousins ever does is trash RGIII while making excuses for every Cousins bad performance

 

Cousins might be an average starter down the road but people seem to see him as Brady 2.0 because this fanbase has an unhealthy obsession with backup QBs going back to the Joe Gibbs days.

 

2: The consensus about Wilson is that if he was 6'2, he'd be a top 10 pick and the 3rd QB off the board. I saw Wilson as the Lexus to RGIII's Mercedes.

 

3: Have you watched either Luck or RGIII in college? Luck was really an elite game manager at Stanford passing behind an OL that was better than some starting NFL OLs and passing to tight ends that were better than some starting NFL tight ends. RGIII had elite WRs but not much else, and had to make up for a godawful defense at Baylor and win games with his arm on a consistent basis. The only attribute where Luck was better was pro system experience, because he played 4 years in a pro system.

 

4: Shanahan set up RGIII for short-term success by not developing the raw but ultra-talented passer they traded multiple firsts for. We likely go 6-10 or 7-9 if Shanahan tried to develop his passing fundamentals in 2012 but we also are set up way more for the future.

 

Gruden is using the pre-season as practice for things RGIII still needs to work on, namely drop-back passing without the threat of a moving pocket or rollouts or really using RGIII's mobility at all.

Luck a game manage in college? What are you smoking?

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

 

Spread, uptempo, zone-read, attacking all over the field

You and me both brother.  Spread 'em out, speed it up, let the man run the show.  

 

Of course, this plays to his strengths, but I also think it offers him better protection physically.  If he chooses to take off, it would allow him more space to operate.  I'll take him one on one against anybody.

 

For a more WCO style attack, I really liked the way AReid used McNabb in his prime.  Lots of screens, boots, deep balls, and some QB draws mixed in.  Griffin isn't built like McNabb, but I could see something similar having success here.  Of course, BWestbrook wasn't too shabby either.

 

No matter what we try to do, we gotta get Griffin some confidence early.  Seems his head is swimming a bit at the moment.

[Darrell Green Fan]

 There may be fans of Cousins who dislike Griffin, and vice versa.

The main point i'm trying to get some to understand is this;

Griffin has had, what, 29 starts, has the lion's share of 1st rep practices, etc, and he's not playing good football, bad footwork, throwing off back foot, holding ball too long, etc, and some say 'this is his first offseason training camp, he needs time and work to get in sync with everything.

 Then you have Cousins, who has had 4 starts, limited first team reps [ comparitively speaking ] and has made some bad decisions just as Griffin, and some call him a bum, he's no good, ain't worth a ham sammich, etc.

 

Its a double standard to the extreme. Griffin is claimed to need the OTAs training camp so he'll perform better but Cousins who hasn't had nearly the attention of a starting QB in training camp, and some turn their back on him. How, in any sensible way, is that a fair assessment to make on Cousins? There's no possible way to justify it; no numbers, metrics, nothing, to make it a fair comparison.

 

If there's something that i'm not getting, please, someone inform me of it, but I just don't see how someone who has had 1/8 of the starts can be fairly judged as he is.

This is the reason why some take a stance, and maybe some bitterness, towards Griffin.  Its not about 'hating' a player, its about giving another player the same opportunities and THEN make an assessment.

 

Here's my take on what you are missing.  Cousins was in no way the prospect that Griffin was.  There's a reason one went 2 overall and the other fell to the 4th round.  Kirk Cousins has limited ability and limited upside in most people's mind.   That's why  in a league desperate for QBs nobody was fooled by one good start against Cleveland.in 2012, there is a reason nobody made a decent offer for him.  

 

In his pro career Kirk has thrown  only 201 tiimes with 7 runs.  In that small sample size he has turned the ball over an unheard of 14 times.  14 turnovers in a little over 200 plays (I don't count handoffs as they are low to no risk) is totally unacceptable.  All this talk about Griffin's footwork etc and for some reason this stat is overloooked and as we all know turnovers are one of the biggest deciding factors in deciding who wins and losses.  And this is not new, he turned it over a lot in college too.

 

After his college career and record setting rookie season there should be no doubt RGIII had earned the starting spot and with it comes first team reps.  While Cousins did not get that Kirk has had ample opportunity to show what he can do, certainly more than just about any 3rd year backup in the league has had.  Frankly the performances have been undwhelming.  Again a good game in Cleveland and one against a horrible Atlanta team and still his passing stats trail Griffins by a huge margin. 

[dsciambi]

If they thought his strengths were his running, then the Shanahans are more incompetent than I thought. RGIII's main talent was his ability to pick teams apart in a spread, wide open passing game. I assumed they at least watched the guy's tape. Maybe they didn't and just saw "dynamic running QB" which means the Shanahans are every bit as incompetent as Zorn.

 

The longer I've watched the NFL, the more I believe that it's more about nepotism than talent. There's a whole lot of people out there that seem to continuously get hired (or stay hired) when there's absolutely no performance to back it up.

 

I'd say most Redskins fans would agree that Haslett probably falls into that category. He's never really had an impressive defense and yet he's bounced around the league for years. How else do you explain someone like McDaniels being considered for the Browns head coaching gig after everything else that's gone down? I think it goes all the way from GM's to the strength and conditioning coaches.

[Darrell Green Fan]

Yes I've seen the play and I think everyone knows his knee was wrecked already. It was obvious he hurt it again on the 1st drive and never was the same. By your train of thought, RG3 caused Reed's concussions last year by throwing the ball to him.

 

Clearly Griff was hurt before that last drive. But if you really believed he played the eintire game on a blown out ACL and LCL, well be my guest.  I'm not buying that for a second and neither is science. If you could not see the difference in him before and after that play,then I don't know what to say to you. 

 

 

Here's a good breakdown of the play and resulting injury

 

Here is a pretty good descriptoin of how the play killed his knee once and for good.

 

The video of the injury clearly shows that while Griffin attempted to recover the fumble, his right knee gave way under his body weight.

 

As it gave out, the knee bent abnormally inward, slightly forward and then backward, a sequence of events that immediately had every athletic trainer and orthopaedic surgeon across the country concerned about his ACL.

 

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1477433-a-complete-guide-to-robert-griffin-iiis-knee-injury

[skins island connection]

Here's my take on what you are missing.  Cousins was in no way the prospect that Griffin was.  There's a reason one went 2 overall and the other fell to the 4th round.  Kirk Cousins has limited ability and limited upside in most people's mind.   That's why  in a league desperate for QBs nobody was fooled by one good start against Cleveland.in 2012, there is a reason nobody made a decent offer for him.  

 

In his pro career Kirk has thrown  only 201 tiimes with 7 runs.  In that small sample size he has turned the ball over an unheard of 14 times.  14 turnovers in a little over 200 plays (I don't count handoffs as they are low to no risk) is totally unacceptable.  All this talk about Griffin's footwork etc and for some reason this stat is overloooked and as we all know turnovers are one of the biggest deciding factors in deciding who wins and losses.  And this is not new, he turned it over a lot in college too.

 

After his college career and record setting rookie season there should be no doubt RGIII had earned the starting spot and with it comes first team reps.  While Cousins did not get that Kirk has had ample opportunity to show what he can do, certainly more than just about any 3rd year backup in the league has had.  Frankly the performances have been undwhelming.  Again a good game in Cleveland and one against a horrible Atlanta team and still his passing stats trail Griffins by a huge margin. 

 

 I wouldn't say 'ample opportunity' under the same circumstances. Kirk's games last year was at the end of the season, and many player's minds were on just getting the season over with, so i'd question their intensity on the field, and their willingness to 'sell themselves out' on the field for meaningless games. This is just my perspective, but it does coincide with how things went.

 

 But, the overall circumstances of Kirk's play time vs Griffin's, and which seem more important? Obviously, Griffin's time behind center was more important, because he was the starter from week 1, vs Cousins' games, where the team was long out of the playoff hunt.

 

That factors in, even though we'll never hear of a player stating they just went through the motions in the last games.

 

 But I do stand by my belief that if Griffin were not here, and Cousins was named the starter, his performance would be better; to what degree, I, nor anyone else knows for sure, all some can do is speculate, and as I said before, thats not a fair was to assess his 'possibilities'.  In all fairness, of course.

Its not a knock on Griffin, he's got alot of talent, but he's been given the keys from week 1, and no one can expect a back-up to step in at a moment's notice and light it up; if Cousins did, would the circumstances be any different in people's eyes? Probably not.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Shanahans:

 

I have no issue with how the Shanahan's chose to use Griffin. They used his running ability and his passing ability. Griffin's success his rookie year was/is historic. It was a tour de force of how 1 dynamic player's  physical skillset player can lift an entire offense. I have no problem with read-option.

 

 

I agree completely. When you spend three firsts and a second to draft someone for his unique combination of running and passing abilities, then you'd be foolish to only use some of those abilities. I will be very frustrated if Griffin's legs aren't part of our game plans this season. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

The longer I've watched the NFL, the more I believe that it's more about nepotism than talent. There's a whole lot of people out there that seem to continuously get hired (or stay hired) when there's absolutely no performance to back it up.

 

I'd say most Redskins fans would agree that Haslett probably falls into that category. He's never really had an impressive defense and yet he's bounced around the league for years. How else do you explain someone like McDaniels being considered for the Browns head coaching gig after everything else that's gone down? I think it goes all the way from GM's to the strength and conditioning coaches.

 

It's about talent.  Give him the Seahawks players and suddenly he's a genious. 

 I wouldn't say 'ample opportunity' under the same circumstances. Kirk's games last year was at the end of the season, and many player's minds were on just getting the season over with, so i'd question their intensity on the field, and their willingness to 'sell themselves out' on the field for meaningless games. This is just my perspective, but it does coincide with how things went.

 

 But, the overall circumstances of Kirk's play time vs Griffin's, and which seem more important? Obviously, Griffin's time behind center was more important, because he was the starter from week 1, vs Cousins' games, where the team was long out of the playoff hunt.

 

That factors in, even though we'll never hear of a player stating they just went through the motions in the last games.

 

 But I do stand by my belief that if Griffin were not here, and Cousins was named the starter, his performance would be better; to what degree, I, nor anyone else knows for sure, all some can do is speculate, and as I said before, thats not a fair was to assess his 'possibilities'.  In all fairness, of course.

Its not a knock on Griffin, he's got alot of talent, but he's been given the keys from week 1, and no one can expect a back-up to step in at a moment's notice and light it up; if Cousins did, would the circumstances be any different in people's eyes? Probably not.

 

Again what has Cousiins, or any other 3rd year backup, done to deserve equal practice time with the starters?   He got to start 3 games when the starter, the defending Offensive Rookie of the Year, could have played.  Can you name one other backup 3rd year QB player in the history of the NFL that was given such an opportunity?.   No Cousins has nothing to complain about. 

[mojo]

Clearly Griff was hurt before that last drive. But if you really believed he played the eintire game on a blown out ACL and LCL, well be my guest. I'm not buying that for a second and neither is science. If you could not see the difference in him before and after that play,then I don't know what to say to you.

Here's a good breakdown of the play and resulting injury

Here is a pretty good descriptoin of how the play killed his knee once and for good.

The video of the injury clearly shows that while Griffin attempted to recover the fumble, his right knee gave way under his body weight.

As it gave out, the knee bent abnormally inward, slightly forward and then backward, a sequence of events that immediately had every athletic trainer and orthopaedic surgeon across the country concerned about his ACL.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1477433-a-complete-guide-to-robert-griffin-iiis-knee-injury

Ok this is a ridiculous argument. My point is that if your knee is to the point that you can't field a low snap without blowing it out you shouldn't have been on the field. And it's ridiculous to put blame on the center.

[Darrell Green Fan]

Ok this is a ridiculous argument. My point is that if your knee is to the point that you can't field a low snap without blowing it out you shouldn't have been on the field. And it's ridiculous to put blame on the center.

 

Nobody is arguing that he shouldn't have been out there.  And if you read my posts I am not blaming the injury solely on Williams.  But with that said it's ridiculous for you not to at least acknowledge that with a good snap he probably walks out of there with a sprain and not 2 ligament tears.  He was 2 minutes from the end of the game. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

I agree completely. When you spend three firsts and a second to draft someone for his unique combination of running and passing abilities, then you'd be foolish to only use some of those abilities. I will be very frustrated if Griffin's legs aren't part of our game plans this season.

I agree as well, I want Griffin's legs featured as part of the offense but I don't want it to be a crutch or at the detriment of his passing development.

In many instances the past 2 seasons and mostly last season, the RO was more of a ball and chain around Griffin and the offense even though he had the brace still being too heavily relied on. It was counter to what Griffin should have been doing as DG mentioned. Going more up tempo and spread as in the Vikings and Giants first halves. It wasn't using his skills to his advantage in many cases especially since it was expected and prepared for it put him at a disadvantage IMO.

So I am looking forward to seeing how Gruden balances the threat of Griffins legs with his development as a passer and how our passing offense actually shakes out.

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

It's about talent.  Give him the Seahawks players and suddenly he's a genious. 

 

Again what has Cousiins, or any other 3rd year backup, done to deserve equal practice time with the starters?   He got to start 3 games when the starter, the defending Offensive Rookie of the Year, could have played.  Can you name one other backup 3rd year QB player in the history of the NFL that was given such an opportunity?.   No Cousins has nothing to complain about.

When have we heard Cousins complain?????

As a rookie he put us in the playoffs, saved the day against the Ravens, and went on the road to beat a good Browns defense....I would say that warrants starting considerations, when you consider how bad RG3 was last year within the pocket....

Perhaps we need to see if Cousins continues to get better with more playing time, which IMO; he will!

Now...if they do give more practice time to Cousins, what would RG3 have to complain about???

3rd season, and still can't read a defense......

[Momma There Goes That Man]

When I imagine an offense built around Griffin's strengths damn if it doesn't look like Chip Kelly's Eagles offense.

Spread, uptempo, zone-read, attacking all over the field

This is the thought that keeps me awake at night. Missed him by 'that' much...

[Darrell Green Fan]

When have we heard Cousins complain?????

As a rookie he put us in the playoffs, saved the day against the Ravens, and went on the road to beat a good Browns defense....I would say that warrants starting considerations, when you consider how bad RG3 was last year within the pocket....

Perhaps we need to see if Cousins continues to get better with more playing time, which IMO; he will!

Now...if they do give more practice time to Cousins, what would RG3 have to complain about???

3rd season, and still can't read a defense......

 

I didn't mean to imply that Cousins has complained, sorry if I worded it poorly.  But some fans sure are doing just that. 

 

Bottom line is RGIII is the starter and after his rookie season nobody should be arguing that.   And that's how it works in the NFL, the starter gets the majority of the practice snaps.  This is not news and it sure should not change for Kirk Cousins, especially given his play to date. Again you are basing all this on one game in Cleveland and completely blowing off his performance last year, when Griff's stats were better in every category. 

 

Did the Packers split Brett Favre's practices with his backup as he learned to play?  Did the Panthers with Cam last year?  Did any team for that matter?  It's way way waaay too early to think about doing it with Griffin. No you groom with as much practice time as possible the guy you have tabbed as the QB of the future, the guy with clearly more upside, and you don't panic after a rocky 2nd year and 20 preseason passes. 

[mistertim]

When have we heard Cousins complain?????

As a rookie he put us in the playoffs, saved the day against the Ravens, and went on the road to beat a good Browns defense....I would say that warrants starting considerations, when you consider how bad RG3 was last year within the pocket....

Perhaps we need to see if Cousins continues to get better with more playing time, which IMO; he will!

Now...if they do give more practice time to Cousins, what would RG3 have to complain about???

3rd season, and still can't read a defense......

Just out of curiosity, have you seen some of the stats that have been posted here to refute the "Cousins is better than Griffin in the pocket" meme? Cousins won't get more practice time with the 1st team because he is not on the 1st team and won't be the starter so why limit Griffin's snaps to placate a bunch of people on ES who think Cousins should be the starter? He has had one good game, one decent one (against a team that openly admitted they had phoned it in and were trying out their young players, especially in the secondary), and some poor ones. His stats suck and even if you don't believe in stats, it doesn't change the fact that they exist and they do have meaning.

 

Why would a backup QB get a chance to start after one good game? That isn't generally how it works. I like Cousins but he fell to the 4th round for a reason and he was passed on last year by other NFL teams as a trade opportunity for a reason. 

 

God the regular season can't come soon enough. 

[Darc Requiem]

?

or

?

or

?

I deserved that.

[Bacon]

Griffin is a game manager (see second half of 2012). 

So the same QB that gets chided for always going for the kill shot is also a game manager? That's hysterical. 

[ncr2h]

So the same QB that gets chided for always going for the kill shot is also a game manager? That's hysterical.

In his entire college and pro (and likely high school) career, Robert Griffin has won 2 games in which the pass/run ratio was greater than 50/50. Two Games. The first was against Sam Houston State, in which his team forced 3 turnovers. The second was his rookie season against Tampa Bay. In that game, he passed it 35 times and we ran it 31 times, so this was hardly a gunslinging showdown.

You would think a guy with blue chip NFL caliber passing talent would have accomplished that more times, especially playing the likes of Sam Houston State every year while throwing to a future NFL 1600+ yard receiver and another first rounder. You would think the coach would just press the "easy" button, and have his big time NFL passing prospect air it out all game instead of exposing the guy to horrific injuries by running him 500+ times. Your team is 1 hit away from Nick florence being your QB, for chrissakes.

2 games. Sam Houston State. Tampa. That's it.

Cousins did that in his first NFL start, was 1 play away from doing it again his second start, and did it 5 times in college, going against the likes of Ohio State and Wisconsin every year. He had a future 1st round running back in his backfield and was throwing to a bunch of nobodies, but his coach still dialed up his number to win them games.

Who's the game manager? Cousins did in his first game what Griffin has done only once in 28 starts, and only twice in (likely) his lifetime.

[Bacon]

"Game manager" is a mindset, not simply a function of circumstance or measure of talent. RG3 has had an excellent running game his entire stint in Washington and it has been the cornerstone of this team. Therefore, the offense has been called that way. RG3 isn't wired up to be a game manager, and if he were, he would think a lot smaller than he currently does. Great game managers consistently minimize turnovers and know when to throw the ball away.

 

I don't think either of our QBs are game managers. Certainly not Cousins, who is a classic gunslinger.

[martytheman]

You guys know what it all boils down to?

Griffin just needs to let the ball go. The guys are open, he just needs to let it rip.

That will solve most of his pocket/oline problems, and this debate as well.

 

Will he ever learn to do it? Or will he be a jason candle.. late on every throw for his entire career.