Election 16: Donald Trumps wins Presidency. God Help us all!

[s0crates]

You're kind of making me dislike Bernie for no reason.

Instead of telling us why all these things are going to happen (which I don't believe). Why not simply go into detail on the good things about Bernie and let those things speak for him without blasting Clinton or Trump or anybody else.

Fair point.

In my defense, I've been arguing the electability question a lot lately because so many people mistakenly believe Hillary is more electable than Bernie, and that seems to be the biggest motivator for Hillary voters.

But since you ask, here's what I like about Bernie:

1. He is not for sale. One of the most revealing things about a candidate is his donors, and Bernie's donations are almost entirely from ordinary people. This is in stark contrast to most politicians who get most of their money from billionaires.

2. His consistent voting record. This is the other thing that I think is especially telling about a candidate. His decades of votes reflect his rhetoric, which makes me trust him, and he usually casts the same votes I would have cast (e.g. he voted against the Iraq war, against the Patriot Act, against the bank bailout, and consistently votes for things like veterans benefits, education, healthcare, social security, etc.).

3. His platform, which includes: Medicare for all healthcare, public college being public in the same way public high school is public, raising the minimum wage, making the uber rich pay their fair share, decreasing our record incarceration rate, family medical leave, and many other programs to benefit and increase the vanishing middle class. His platform is much like that of early twentieth century politicians like FDR, who enacted programs that led to what was arguably America's most prosperous era.

4. His foreign policy, which reads a lot like just war theory: War should be a last resort, after diplomatic means have been exhausted, but it is sometimes necessary. When war is necessary it should have clear and achievable objectives, which should be pursued with full force and international cooperation, and the war should end when those objectives are achieved. A vote for Bernie is a vote against perpetual and unjust war.

5. His human decency. He has been a defender of civil rights and social justice since the early 1960s when he was arrested at a sit in, he was a champion of gay rights before it was popular, and he has always been a champion for women's rights. He is a candidate who actually cares about all kinds of ordinary people.

That's for starters.

[Duckus]

Trumps not a bigot.

 

 

         

 

What in the world.

 

Trump is absolutely a bigot - he doesn't even hide it. And many, many of his supporters are closet bigots as well. Some are open bigots like himself. 

[JMS]

  Yeah, sure. Trump is definitely not a bigot. He has never said anything that would make him seem like one...said nobody that has been paying attention to this race.

What has he said that would be considered being Bigotry?

That Gay folks are all going to hell..? No that was the two other guys.

That Gay folks are like child molesters? No that was the dead guy.

Doesn't think Gay folks should are aloud to marry? Nope that was the other guys also.

Trump said illegal aliens should be deported even if it means deporting Millions.. Just like Bill Clinton did, and George W Bush did too.. Just like every President has done prior to President Obama. That's not being bigoted that's called enforcing our laws.

Trump also said he would favor a temporary storage of muslim immigration until entrance criteria can be reviewed. Not particularly smart, but not bigoted either...

But please do give me examples of Trump being bigoted, I won't ask you for examples of him being more bigoted than those he shares the stage with on any given debate.

Well, one of us knows the answer to that. He bragged a few pages ago he collected a Cruz autograph.

Yeah but he couldn't smell Cruz because he had garlic cloves around his neck... oh wait that was my hypothesis.

[Dan T.]

Are they fake though? When you have foreign Presidents calling his comments bigoted and racist that carries some weight. When you have nation's removing his name from their buildings... that's not trivial.

 

This isn't the faux complaints of people competing with him. These are the actions of people who theoretically want to do business with him. They're so insulted they told him he can take his money and shove it. It's easy for us to cry racism or non-racism, but the answer usually lies from the response of the people themselves. Walk a mile in their shoes. They believe what he says is racist. 

 

That's true inside the US. It's true outside the US.

 

Edit: I don't think Trump is in his heart a racist. I do think he says racist things. I think he says them consciously and intentionally.

 

Trump: "I'm not a bigot.  I just play one on TV."

[Burgold]

What has he said that would be considered being Bigotry?

 

http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/24/opinions/support-trump-support-bigotry-obeidallah/

 

http://presidential-candidates.insidegov.com/stories/5187/23-ridiculously-offensive-donald-trump-quotes

 

He may not be a bigot. I don't know his heart. He says a bunch of stuff that others hear as racist, sexist, and bigoted. As I said above, some of these people would rather lose money than deal with him at this point.

 

That's when it gets real for me. Anyone can talk, but when you are willing to go against your self-interest (making money) then it's more than rhetorical politics.

[Going Commando]

         

 

What in the world.

 

Trump is absolutely a bigot - he doesn't even hide it. And many, many of his supporters are closet bigots as well. Some are open bigots like himself.

Yeah I'd say many of his supporters aren't particularly secretive about their bigotry either. Trump also emboldens them to be even more vocal with their obnoxious bigotry. "FINALLY! I get to say **** about Mexicans and Muslims and how they're ruining this country."

I've seen an argument that Trump's polls are depressed from reality because people are afraid to admit their support for him to a human being, but they'll vote for him in the private setting of a voting booth. This is absurd, as Trump's supporters are the loudest and most shameless rubes in the electorate.

[visionary]

Ok, I'll put aside for the moment whether or not Trump is a bigot or if he is just pandering to bigots, relying on their support, and smiling and laughing when they do awful stuff on his behalf.

 

 

He said last night that he wanted to cut the EPA and the Department of Education.

I don't recall if there's been much discussion of this before or not.

 

 

 

Hmmm, apparently there's a video of Rubio reading out Trump's tweets and making fun of him now....

[@DCGoldPants]

Fair point.

In my defense, I've been arguing the electability question a lot lately because so many people mistakenly believe Hillary is more electable than Bernie, and that seems to be the biggest motivator for Hillary voters.

But since you ask, here's what I like about Bernie:

1. He is not for sale. One of the most revealing things about a candidate is his donors, and Bernie's donations are almost entirely from ordinary people. This is in stark contrast to most politicians who get most of their money from billionaires.

2. His voting record. This is the other thing that I think is especially telling about a candidate. His decades of votes reflect his rhetoric, which makes me trust him, and he usually casts the same votes I would have cast (e.g. he voted against the Iraq war, against the Patriot Act, against the bank bailout, and consistently votes for things like veterans benefits, education, healthcare, social security, etc.).

3. His platform, which includes: Medicare for all healthcare, public college being public in the same way public high school is public, raising the minimum wage, making the uber rich pay their fair share, decreasing our record incarceration rate, family medical leave, and many other programs to benefit and increase the vanishing middle class. His platform is much like that of early twentieth century politicians like FDR, who enacted programs that led to what was arguably America's most prosperous era.

4. His foreign policy, which reads a lot like just war theory: War should be a last resort, after diplomatic means have been exhausted, but it is sometimes necessary. When war is necessary it should have clear and achievable objectives, which should be pursued with full force and international cooperation, and the war should end when those objectives are achieved.

5. His human decency. He has been a defender of civil rights and social justice since the early 1960s when he was arrested at a sit in, he was a champion of gay rights before it was popular, and he has always been a champion for women's rights. He is a candidate who actually cares about all kinds of ordinary people.

That's for starters.

 

Better job there. 

 

I wish he were more pragmatic. Maybe I just want a Centrist who can simply say "Look, we have 300 million + people here in the most diverse country in the history of mankind. To get things done there will always be give and take. Nobody is going to be 100% happy"

Ok, I'll put aside for the moment whether or not Trump is a bigot or if he is just pandering to bigots, relying on their support, and smiling and laughing when they do awful stuff on his behalf.

 

 

He said last night that he wanted to cut the EPA and the Department of Education.

I don't recall if there's been much discussion of this before or not.

 

 

 

Hmmm, apparently there's a video of Rubio reading out Trump's tweets and making fun of him now....

 

 

Rubio even sucks at making fun at people.

[The Evil Genius]

I was wondering whatever happened to this investigation..

 

Trump University under renewed scrutiny after GOP debate

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-university-under-renewed-scrutiny-after-gop-debate/

[tshile]

Rubio tried to make a joke about how Trump wet himself. Which would be funny if Rubio didn't come across as a meek puppet.

[RedskinsFan44]

About those tax records...

 

"Donald Trump’s claim that he’s been subjected to a dozen years of IRS audits isn’t unusual for a billionaire businessman, but his claim that it's preventing him from releasing his tax returns sure is.

The mogul has been under increased pressure to cough up his returns but has repeatedly demurred in recent weeks, offering up vague explanations about why it’s not feasible for him to do so."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/republican-2016-debate-donald-trump-tax-audit-219842#ixzz41IsfxPJn

[visionary]

About those tax records...

 

"Donald Trump’s claim that he’s been subjected to a dozen years of IRS audits isn’t unusual for a billionaire businessman, but his claim that it's preventing him from releasing his tax returns sure is.

The mogul has been under increased pressure to cough up his returns but has repeatedly demurred in recent weeks, offering up vague explanations about why it’s not feasible for him to do so."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/republican-2016-debate-donald-trump-tax-audit-219842#ixzz41IsfxPJn

They just hate him because he's a strong Christian.

[Going Commando]

Also, just for the record, JMS weren't you the one that argued that the kid who murdered nine members of that black church in Charleston and had posted a picture of himself draped in a Confederate flag on social media and had gone on a crazy rant about how blacks were stealing all the white women wasn't really racist?

I'm curious as to what qualifies as bigotry for you.

[PeterMP]

The author addressed that point quite explicitly. It would be easier to discuss the article if people would read what it says.

And he is no more of a "far left extremist" than FDR.

 

I read the article.  I read the article when chip posted, which is how I knew that you were reposting the samething.

 

FDR isn't running and hasn't run in over 50 years so the comparison is meaningless, AND we aren't in a Great Depression making the comparison even more meaningless.

 

And no, he didn't.

[visionary]

Trump's response to Rubio....

 

https://amp.twimg.com/v/d397ec0e-52b8-45da-a45f-56d1815b9923

 

 

 

The Republican Party has really elevated the level of discourse this election.  

 

 

And here's Jeb's communications director:

 

https://twitter.com/Timodc/status/703277219079180289?lang=en

Like Trump, Chris Christie is a pathetic, corrupt man with a tiny ego. I'm sure they bonded discussing their  insecurities over a big meal.
12:55 PM

 

They should have held this presser right here. That free buffet was before Trump and Christie tanked Atlantic City

1:06 PM

 

Remember when Chris Christie's campaign slogan was "Telling It Like It is." What a farce. He's the biggest phony of them all.
1:18 PM

 

Trump/Christie 2016: The government will regularly carry out petty vendettas against citizens over perceived slights #MakeAmericaGreatAgain
1:30 PM

[Dan T.]

I was wondering whatever happened to this investigation..

 

Trump University under renewed scrutiny after GOP debate

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-university-under-renewed-scrutiny-after-gop-debate/

 

They should investigate Trump Steaks too for fraud.

 

 

"The Reviews of Trump Steaks Are Hilariously Bad"

 

Before he entered the lucrative field of presidential politics, Donald Trump, the successful real estate mogul and television personality, had a number of failed businesses including “Trump Steaks.”

In the typically bombastic ad that’s been floating around, the Trumpster proclaims his eponymous steaks, which were  sold exclusively, and inexplicably, at the Sharper Image and by mail-order from QVC, to be “the world’s greatest steaks.”

 

...while they’ve been discontinued, you can still read the customer reviews of Trump Steaks online at QVC.com.

And they are terrible.

 

"Dreadful pieces of meat."

"Does greasy and tasteless remind you of anyone?"

"Sent this mess back.  Tasteless and mealy."

http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/273968/donald-trump-steaks-bad-reviews/

[Riggo-toni]

Trump's response to Rubio....

https://amp.twimg.com/v/d397ec0e-52b8-45da-a45f-56d1815b9923

The Republican Party has really elevated the level of discourse this election.

I hate to admit it, but that was pretty funny.

[PeterMP]

3. His platform, which includes: Medicare for all healthcare

This is a lie as Medicare requires both co-pays and deductibles and uses the private health insurance industry, while Sanders has promised no co-pays, no deductibles, and no private insurance.

4. His foreign policy, which reads a lot like just war theory: War should be a last resort, after diplomatic means have been exhausted, but it is sometimes necessary. When war is necessary it should have clear and achievable objectives, which should be pursued with full force and international cooperation, and the war should end when those objectives are achieved. A vote for Bernie is a vote against perpetual and unjust war.

This depends on how you define "war" and "achievable objectives". For example, he supports bombing ISIS to defeat them.

Is dropping bombs on people not war? Is defeating ISIS really achievable?

(If we defeat the ISIS organization, but the ideology just shifts to a new organization with a new name, then, did we really win? Or do we start bombing all over again.)

[JMS]

         

 

What in the world.

 

Trump is absolutely a bigot - he doesn't even hide it. And many, many of his supporters are closet bigots as well. Some are open bigots like himself.

Excellent, then it should be easy for you to support your claim

[s0crates]

I wish he were more pragmatic. Maybe I just want a Centrist who can simply say "Look, we have 300 million + people here in the most diverse country in the history of mankind. To get things done there will always be give and take. Nobody is going to be 100% happy"

I think he is much more pragmatic than you realize. That's what separates him from most independents. He isn't a pure idealist like Ralph Nader or Eugene Debs. He wins elections and gets things done. For example, he compromised on guns so he could win the support of rural Vermont NRA members, and he reached across the aisle to pass VA reform with the help of John McCain.

And if you listen to him carefully you'll see he understands the dynamics of a country with such a large population. Over and over again he says that nothing changes unless masses of people with diverse interests unite to demand change. He understands that all the real reforms in history, from women's sufferage to civil rights, have only happened because huge numbers of people have stood together and demanded them.

[Larry]

About those tax records...

 

"Donald Trump’s claim that he’s been subjected to a dozen years of IRS audits isn’t unusual for a billionaire businessman, but his claim that it's preventing him from releasing his tax returns sure is.

The mogul has been under increased pressure to cough up his returns but has repeatedly demurred in recent weeks, offering up vague explanations about why it’s not feasible for him to do so."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/republican-2016-debate-donald-trump-tax-audit-219842#ixzz41IsfxPJn

 

I'd say it's really premature to be asking for those.  After he's won the nomination, sure.  But that's a long ways off. 

[JMS]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/24/opinions/support-trump-support-bigotry-obeidallah/

 

http://presidential-candidates.insidegov.com/stories/5187/23-ridiculously-offensive-donald-trump-quotes

 

He may not be a bigot. I don't know his heart. He says a bunch of stuff that others hear as racist, sexist, and bigoted. As I said above, some of these people would rather lose money than deal with him at this point.

 

That's when it gets real for me. Anyone can talk, but when you are willing to go against your self-interest (making money) then it's more than rhetorical politics.

“When was the last time anybody saw us beating, let's say, China in a trade deal? They kill us. I beat China all the time. All the time.”

Really that's the one of the top 5 most offensive things he's said.. REALL?

Your links are preposterous as is your contention that Trump can't conduct business anymore because "he's so offensive"..

For the Love of sweet baby jesus burgled, at one point in the debate last night you had Trump trying to defend his policy to not allow poor people to die on the streets for lack of healthcare as Rubio and Cruz savaged him for it. And Trump is the one you find offensive in this primary.

Again There is nothing wrong with ruffling some feathers on Trade deals which are working out great for foreign countries and crushing American Business. And Trump get's a lot of credit because he's one of only two candidates brining attention to this.

China warning us not to make an issue of their currency manipulation.. It's unimaginable to me any American could be against that who isn't in the business with importing goods from China.

Trumps not a bigot, it's all smoke. He doesn't even say bigoted things, he says truthful things and sometimes offensive things but that's a far cry from bigoted.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Trump is your basic run of the mill, old school northeastern generally benign bigot. He's basically my grandpa. My grandpa worked with black guys in the steel mill. He sometimes played cards with them after work. He considered them friends in a lot of ways. That didn't mean he wanted them living on his street or going to his church or dating his daughter.

 

Now, my grandpa didn't have the power of elected office to actually make any of these beliefs into policy.

 

I think Trump would happily sell a luxury condo to a rich black man or a rich Arab or a rich Mexican. Good people. Great friends of his.

 

But I do think he sees "black hordes" pushing into "great neighborhoods" into New York and Mexican hordes pushing across the border to take our jobs and Muslim hordes coming here to blow up our landmarks.

[Predicto]

I have to admit that there is a huge diversity in today's Republican party in the number of ways they can scare the **** out of me.

 

All three of these assclowns are scary as hell in their own unique ways.

 

 

And we don't even have a lunatic ultra-Libertarian in the race anymore.   

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

And we don't even have a lunatic ultra-Libertarian in the race anymore.   

 

The primary reason I vote for Democrats is that they are pretty consistent in their idiocy. Hillary Clinton is going to use private email for no other reason than "**** you, that's why. And, I just raised your taxes, ****."

 

That's the good old-Fashioned Democratic corruption that built the Space Program and the Dan Ryan Expressway.