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***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

RonArtest15

By RonArtest15
in The Tailgate

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PeterMP

PeterMP

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, tshile said:

If I was building a team I’d pick curry. 

 

I don't disagree.  I already said in this thread, that I think we have to talk about Curry as the best PG of all time.  

 

But if you want to talk about who it will go down in history as odd that Curry will be better than better, the comparison is Paul vs. Curry.

 

But the stats are going to say Paul.

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bearrock

bearrock

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

 

It isn't flawed.  It is a cumulative stat that takes into account how much you played.  Parrish is ahead of Bird because he played in nearly twice as many games and nearly 1/3 more minutes.  I wouldn't argue it is the best measure of who is best but playing is an important part of being good.

 

If you want to look at people that had higher peaks but shorter careers, WS/48 and box score +/- would be for you.  Bird is 7th in +/- and Parish is 167th.

 

There isn't going to be one stat that can capture the best basketball player.

 

And Paul still out ranks Curry.

 

WS/48.  Chris Paul is not the 5th best player in NBA history.  Rudy Gobert is not the 9th best.  Jimmy Butler is not near top 25.  Karl Anthony Towns is not a shade worse than Russell and better than Erving.  Jonas Valanciunas and Kevin Johnson are not better than Hakeem Olajuwon.  DeAndre Jordan is not a better player than Kobe, Mourning, Nash, Rick Barry, Wade.  Steven Adams is not a better player than Ray Allen, Ewing, Rodman, Paul George, Wilkins, Baylor, Unseld, Pippen.  

 

Box +/- has people like Ginobili, Kirilenko, Anthony Towns ahead of Olajuwon, Kobe, Dirk, Pippen.

 

Use your eyes.  Advanced metrics would say Chris Paul is one of the top 5 players in NBA history.  No one even remotely knowledgeable about basketball would ever list Paul ahead of Jordan, Magic, Bird, James, Jabbar, Wilt, Russell, Shaq and other regulars among the GOAT discussion.  If GMs were to start a franchise with players among active players, resetting everyone to rookies, I'm not sure Paul would crack the top 10 even among that list.  Advanced metrics favor Paul.  That doesn't mean he's really that good.

 

1 minute ago, PeterMP said:

But the stats are going to say Paul.

 

That's why stats are flawed.  Especially advanced metrics.

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PeterMP

PeterMP

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, bearrock said:

That's why stats are flawed.  Especially advanced metrics.

 

I'm not arguing that Paul is better.  Steve listed some people that people aren't going to understand that Curry was better than.  He said people are going to look back and not understand how Harden, etc. were considered equals to Curry.

 

My point is that if people are going to look back and wonder about anybody it is going to be Paul because the stats say Paul is better than Curry.

 

From there, I was told the stats don't say that Paul is the better player.  But they do.

 

Follow the conversation (or ignore it).  You're arguing something that was never part of the conversation.  

 

"There isn't going to be one stat that can capture the best basketball player."

 

Why are you looking at one stat and saying that Paul isn't the X best player?  There is no one stat.  Is that hard to understand?    Yeah, Gobert is 9th in one list.  But he's 131st and 39th in the other 2.

 

Shaq is 20th, 22nd, and 12th.  Even doing a simple average of the rankings that give Shaq 18 and Gobert 59.67.

 

Yes for any one of them, there are people that seem out of place.  But the key is the combination of them.  There aren't many places (especially when you compare people that play the same position) where one person is ranked in the top and all 3 and that person isn't considered the best player at that position.

 

The box score +/- only goes back to 1973 and so you don't get Kareem's early years so that hurts him and obviously other players in that same time frame or before it.

 

Jordan is the best guard in all 3.  Lebron is the best forward in all 3.  And there is no center that is top in all 3 but it is people like Kareem, Jokic (already a 2 time MVP), Robinson, Chamberlain (who isn't in the one list at all because of when he played), and Shaq are near the top.

 

Those are the 5 centers near the top of each list.  That's a pretty reasonable list of the top centers, especially since 1973.

 

And I'm comparing two guards (and nominally two PGs) so the fact that the stats have issues ranking across positions doesn't matter for point.  Yeah, comparing a center to a PG with stats is hard.  But that's not what I'm doing.

 

The stats say for his career that Paul has been the better player.  And the advanced states are certainly better at that than any other stats.

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tshile

tshile

Posted
Posted

@PeterMPi get what you’re saying. And I wasn’t trying to argue with you (I’m so far removed from knowing NBA stats) I was just adding what I think (limited as it may be)

 

and yeah stats are funny like that. People say you can make them say whatever you want - but honesty that’s what people who don’t understand them say. The stats mean what they mean and how you use them is up to you. 
 

Evaluating players in sports require looking at stats but also watching the players and understanding the game. It’s a whole package. 
 

for instance I would think, in some/most sports, coaching staff and training staff matters but rarely are these things considered in discussions about how good a player is - and when they are it’s usually limited to the head coach. 

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bearrock

bearrock

Posted
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@PeterMP It seems like you're in agreement with everyone else that Curry is better than Paul (based on your agreement that you'd pick Curry over Paul to start a team).  For anyone scratching their head looking at the advanced metrics years from now to compare Curry and Paul, they should understand that advanced metrics are not an arbiter of whether one player is better than the other (which you seem to be agreeing to, otherwise why would you pick Curry over Paul?)

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PeterMP

PeterMP

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, bearrock said:

@PeterMP It seems like you're in agreement with everyone else that Curry is better than Paul (based on your agreement that you'd pick Curry over Paul to start a team).  For anyone scratching their head looking at the advanced metrics years from now to compare Curry and Paul, they should understand that advanced metrics are not an arbiter of whether one player is better than the other (which you seem to be agreeing to, otherwise why would you pick Curry over Paul?)

 

I think in most cases, especially when comparing people that play similar positions, the advanced stats when taken together do a good job of telling you who is the better player.

 

I think there are exceptions and Curry is a big one.  I alluded to this in response to somebody else on another point.  Curry's scoring is especially valuable.  Curry allows teammates that on other teams with other players wouldn't be useful offensive players to contribute to offense.

 

When Bogut went to GS, the league perception was that Bogut was not (very) valuable as an offensive player any more.  But because the way you can play with Curry, Bogut had offensive value that he essentially didn't have on any other team.

 

More specifically, being somebody that can see the court and understand where to move and being able to shoot from distance on the move is an extremely valuable trait and people that can do that make other teammates more valuable.  An off ball pick has more value when the other player will actually move, and can come off the screen can catch, shoot, and make 3's without getting set and not allowing the defenders to recover than when the guy can't.  And Curry is probably the best in history at doing that.  Generally, I think the advanced stats probably under rank the truly great shooters in history. 

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Dr. Do Itch Big

Dr. Do Itch Big

Posted
Posted

So we can all agree Curry is a superior player to Paul. 

the advance stats are useful but within specific contexts. I would love to see those same stats Peter posted for the playoffs tho.
 

Back to Shaq, I believe Those advance stats also don’t capture his dominance.

Lol Wolves. Jesus I don’t understand it but I’ll watch. 

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PeterMP

PeterMP

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, abdcskins said:

KAT and Gobert on the same team? Why?

 

Essentially, KAT is going to get a lot of run at the 4.

 

It isn't too much different than playing another big with AD.  

 

I'm not against adding Gobert on the surface but 4 1st seems like way too much.  They'll still need some cheap role players that could be gotten with first round picks to compete for a championship.

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Renegade7

Renegade7

Posted
Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

Essentially, KAT is going to get a lot of run at the 4.

 

It isn't too much different than playing another big with AD.  

 

I'm not against adding Gobert on the surface but 4 1st seems like way too much.  They'll still need some cheap role players that could be gotten with first round picks to compete for a championship.

 

Sounds like they believe they have enough young stars in KAT and Edwards and thinking bigger after giving Memphis fits.

 

For life of me, I can't wrap my head around how okay some franchises are with using first round picks for role players, buy late first rounders might as well be 2nd rounders, so that's probably why.

 

If they expect to be making deep playoff rounds or even regularly the 2nd round, those first round picks aren't worth that much, imo, even if 4 is a lot.

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Destino

Destino

Posted
Posted
19 hours ago, Going Commando said:

I thought this was going to be a quiet offseason because nobody really had any cap space.  Should have known better.

The nba always delivers drama in the off-season.  Best off-season in sports and it’s not close.  

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