***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[Die Hard]

As if he was going to opt out and pass on the Benjamin’s. It never happens. They always stay to max out their earnings.

[No Nonsense]

The only team that was reported to be serious about trading for Kyrie is the Lakers, and they could only offer him $6M next year and they have no assets to trade. 

[Going Commando]

On 6/23/2022 at 7:32 AM, Ball Security said:

 

 

 

This has been bugging me.  The fact that Dwight is the 4 dollar center is almost as sad as the fact that Horford even made the cut.  Jokic and Embiid are clearly already greater players than three out of five of those guys on the list.  Giannis being a 2 dollar player is clearly ridiculous too, and makes picking him over LeBron and Durant a no-brainer.  He's a PF more than a SF and he should be the $4 PF ahead of Dirk and bump Pau Gasol off the list and T-Mac should be the $1 SF.

 

The Center values should be:

Shaq - $5

Jokic - $4

Dwight - $3

Embiid - $2

Gasol - $1

 

The PF values should be:

Duncan - $5

Giannis - $4

Dirk - $3

KG - $2

Davis - $1

 

To me, that creates a much more balanced challenge with many more viable configurations.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Going Commando

[Going Commando]

There should also be a rule that you can't double up on positions and that you have to take only one player from each column.

 

With Giannis at the $4 PF column, McGrady at $1 in the SF column, and Jokic and Embiid at $4 and $2 in the C column, my choices would be:

 

PG - Nash

SG - Wade

SF - McGrady

PF - Garnett

C - Shaq

[Ball Security]

John Wall is now a Free Agent.  $40M buyout.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

45 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

There should also be a rule that you can't double up on positions and that you have to take only one player from each column.

 

With Giannis at the $4 PF column, McGrady at $1 in the SF column, and Jokic and Embiid at $4 and $2 in the C column, my choices would be:

 

PG - Nash

SG - Wade

SF - McGrady

PF - Garnett

C - Shaq

then make your own meme lol. what are you choices from the actual image 

[Destino]

1 hour ago, Ball Security said:

John Wall is now a Free Agent.  $40M buyout.

ESPN reporting him going to the Clippers.  Kawhi, PG, Wall.  That’s a hard nosed set of stars.  Now all they need is a miracle to get them all through the regular season without injury.  

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

2 hours ago, Die Hard said:

As if he was going to opt out and pass on the Benjamin’s. It never happens. They always stay to max out their earnings.

I agree but then I remember Kyrie lost a huge amount of money by sitting out due to his stance on the vaccine so Kyrie opting out wouldn’t surprise me. 

I think Wall is washed but I think the Clippers is a great destination for him. 

[Die Hard]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

I agree but then I remember Kyrie lost a huge amount of money by sitting out due to his stance on the vaccine so Kyrie opting out wouldn’t surprise me. 

I think Wall is washed but I think the Clippers is a great destination for him. 

If Irving opted out of $37M…. what team was going to offer that in free agency? What teams have the cap for that?

 

The Lakers were reportedly offering their $8M trade exception.

 

No one was going to come close to offering anything substantive…. which is why he needed to hope of a trade to get the full cash and go to a team that he wanted. Nets didn’t like any of the trade offers…. so they called his bluff.

 

If Irving wanted a specific team…. he had to give up $$$$ to do so. And he let the world know what he valued most. And it’s not really surprising…. except he likes to think he’s smarter than everyone else.

[Going Commando]

18 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

then make your own meme lol. what are you choices from the actual image 

 

The problem with that list is that Shaq is so vastly better than all of the other Cs on that list and Giannis is so vastly better than all of the other $2 players on the list, so they are the only two you can pick from the SF and C columns without making a team that would get absolutely destroyed.

 

Then factor in the dropoff from KG to Davis is astronomical and that means you've got to pick either Dirk or KG as your 4 or you're going to get destroyed. 

 

Thus you're only making three real choices and there are only four right answers:

 

Nash, Iverson, Giannis, Dirk, Shaq

Kidd, Harden, Giannis, Dirk Shaq

CP3, Iverson, Giannis, KG, Shaq

Kidd, Wade, Giannis, KG, Shaq

 

I guess if I had to choose one of these four teams, the one with CP3 at PG is the best.

[The Evil Genius]

Fwiw Dubs just won a title with more or less a 3G or even a 4G lineup. Positionless basketball is where the NBA is now and confining a fantasy $15 roster to 1c, 2f, 2g is outdated. 

[Going Commando]

13 hours ago, The Evil Genius said:

Fwiw Dubs just won a title with more or less a 3G or even a 4G lineup. Positionless basketball is where the NBA is now and confining a fantasy $15 roster to 1c, 2f, 2g is outdated. 

 

I think it's a stretch to call Wiggins and Draymond guards.  They won without a good traditional big, but Wiggins and Draymond and even Klay are all big wings.  A transcendent lead guard and a couple of super good two-way role player wings and forwards with no dominant big isn't that different than the formula the Jordan Bulls used for their second threepeat.  It's kind of like a lesser version of it really.  I'm not convinced that basketball is really that different or less specialized than it used to be.

 

But I think it's important to recognize that this Warriors build formula might be a one-off made possible by the disintegration of other more traditional power team builds this season + it also hinged upon having one of the greatest and most unique players in the history of the league at PG.

 

The traditional formulas of building around:

 

lead guard + big

big wing + big

lead guard + big wing

 

Are just always going to be easier and more intuitive formulas to build contenders with.  Those are what teams will continue to strive for because the roster and role balance is so much easier to achieve when your roster (and salary cap) are organized that way.

 

Also, it's clear from the way that the columns and rows were organized in that meme that they expected you to pick a player from each column and row.  They organized the players by position, otherwise why put Dwight and Gasol above Giannis?  The challenge of the meme is to build a fully balanced starting five with limited resources.

[The Evil Genius]

The Steph, Klay, Poole, GPII lineup was out there for bulk minutes near the end of the season. That's 4Gs.

 

The modern NBA really likes positionless tweener players. 

[PeterMP]

25 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

The Steph, Klay, Poole, GPII lineup was out there for bulk minutes near the end of the season. That's 4Gs.

 

The modern NBA really likes positionless tweener players. 

 

I don't think that lineup played a minute in the regular season.

 

Here's all the 4 player lineups with GPIII:

 

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular Season&TeamID=1610612744&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*Payton:GROUP_NAME*E*Curry:GROUP_NAME*E*Poole&GroupQuantity=4

 

None of them include Thompson.  And if I add Thompson, I get nothing.

 

It did play 6 minutes in the playoffs with not bad results:

 

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Playoffs&TeamID=1610612744&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*Payton:GROUP_NAME*E*Curry:GROUP_NAME*E*Poole&GroupQuantity=4

 

But its 6 minutes over 5 games so I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that.

 

 

17 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

The problem with that list is that Shaq is so vastly better than all of the other Cs on that list and Giannis is so vastly better than all of the other $2 players on the list, so they are the only two you can pick from the SF and C columns without making a team that would get absolutely destroyed.

 

Then factor in the dropoff from KG to Davis is astronomical and that means you've got to pick either Dirk or KG as your 4 or you're going to get destroyed. 

 

Thus you're only making three real choices and there are only four right answers:

 

Nash, Iverson, Giannis, Dirk, Shaq

Kidd, Harden, Giannis, Dirk Shaq

CP3, Iverson, Giannis, KG, Shaq

Kidd, Wade, Giannis, KG, Shaq

 

I guess if I had to choose one of these four teams, the one with CP3 at PG is the best.

 

In the modern NBA, how much better is Shaq than some of the other centers?  He can't shoot more than 5 ft. from the basket, there's no illegal defense, and on defense he essentially always dropped on pick and rolls.

Edited June 28, 2022 by PeterMP

[abdcskins]

It's astonishing how John Wall can get paid $40 million a year for someone who has barely played the last 5 years. 

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, PeterMP said:

In the modern NBA, how much better is Shaq than some of the other centers?  He can't shoot more than 5 ft. from the basket, there's no illegal defense, and on defense he essentially always dropped on pick and rolls.

 

Oh I think he'd still be a totally dominant player.  Look at how dominant Giannis and LeBron are and they only have a fraction of his combo of size, power, and speed.  I honestly think he could average 30 & 15 on a high shooting percentage in the modern NBA and that he would probably be even more focused and his team more organized and systematic about his load management.  Dwight Howard had so much less offensive skill and size than him and he still averaged 23 and 14 in his prime, Shaq would easily top that.  And I think he would trade getting helped onto in the post faster for the kind of hard fouling he had to deal with in the 90's and early aughts in a heartbeat.

 

Shaq is still the most unique and dominant athlete in the history of the NBA since Wilt.  Jokic is a uniquely great player who dominates the league too, but Shaq was head and shoulders better than him.  He was a force of nature and the flaw in the design of that game is that any team where you don't pick both him and Giannis would physically not be able to match up against them and just get run off the court.

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

Oh I think he'd still be a totally dominant player.  Look at how dominant Giannis and LeBron are and they only have a fraction of his combo of size, power, and speed.  I honestly think he could average 30 & 15 on a high shooting percentage in the modern NBA and that he would probably be even more focused and his team more organized and systematic about his load management.  Dwight Howard had so much less offensive skill and size than him and he still averaged 23 and 14 in his prime, Shaq would easily top that.  And I think he would trade getting helped onto in the post faster for the kind of hard fouling he had to deal with in the 90's and early aughts in a heartbeat.

 

Shaq is still the most unique and dominant athlete in the history of the NBA since Wilt.  Jokic is a uniquely great player who dominates the league too, but Shaq was head and shoulders better than him.  He was a force of nature and the flaw in the design of that game is that any team where you don't pick both him and Giannis would physically not be able to match up against them and just get run off the court.

 

And they are both much better shooters than he is.  Even Giannis.  Giannis' career average FT% is higher than Shaq's career high.  Giannis shoots about 30% from 3 now.  What would Shaq shoot?  Maybe 15%?  He also wasn't the ball handler they are.  He's certainly bigger and stronger, but I'm not sure that offensively that makes him as good as they are.

 

I also don't think Howard is a good metric for where Shaq would be against current NBA players.  Howard's prime came shortly after the league changed the rules.  Coaches were still figuring out the new rules and the players were definitely still figuring out.  Lebron, Giannis, and Embiid are better team defenders than people in Howard's peak.

 

The bigger issue for Shaq though is defense.  Going under screens against the more recent scorers doesn't work any more.

 

Against somebody like Curry, Shaq staying under screens could result in trading a lot 2 for 3 and even 1 for 3 when Shaq gets fouled.

 

 

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

7 hours ago, The Evil Genius said:

The Steph, Klay, Poole, GPII lineup was out there for bulk minutes near the end of the season. That's 4Gs.

 

The modern NBA really likes positionless tweener players. 

Yeah that is a lie. Steph was hurt towards the end of the season. So he didn’t play. Wiggins lead the team in minutes I think. 

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

57 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

And they are both much better shooters than he is.  Even Giannis.  Giannis' career average FT% is higher than Shaq's career high.  Giannis shoots about 30% from 3 now.  What would Shaq shoot?  Maybe 15%?  He also wasn't the ball handler they are.  He's certainly bigger and stronger, but I'm not sure that offensively that makes him as good as they are.

 

I also don't think Howard is a good metric for where Shaq would be against current NBA players.  Howard's prime came shortly after the league changed the rules.  Coaches were still figuring out the new rules and the players were definitely still figuring out.  Lebron, Giannis, and Embiid are better team defenders than people in Howard's peak.

 

The bigger issue for Shaq though is defense.  Going under screens against the more recent scorers doesn't work any more.

 

Against somebody like Curry, Shaq staying under screens could result in trading a lot 2 for 3 and even 1 for 3 when Shaq gets fouled.

 

 

Robert Williams just shot like 90% from the field in the finals. Shaq would absolutely destroy in this league. Too much of an athletic freak. 

[Destino]

 

Three good teams fighting to sign this guy makes no sense to me.  

[The Evil Genius]

52 minutes ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

Yeah that is a lie. Steph was hurt towards the end of the season. So he didn’t play. Wiggins lead the team in minutes I think. 

 

End of the season was the playoffs. And i used that lineup off the top of my head (and was ckrrected that the 4g lineup i mentioned played only a few minutes), but I suspect you could probably find more minutes for the 3G lineup they used. 

 

AGAIN I think my point still stands,  NBA teams value positionless players now. And teams aren't afraid to run tweeners out there because traditional bigs cannot generally defend modern outside shooting and motion offenses. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by The Evil Genius

[PeterMP]

9 hours ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

Robert Williams just shot like 90% from the field in the finals. Shaq would absolutely destroy in this league. Too much of an athletic freak. 

 

Why does Williams' shooting percentage matter?  He's never even the Celtics 3rd option on offense and we're comparing him to 2 of the best players in NBA?  Williams could be 4X the offensive player that he is and nobody would still take him over Embiid or Jocik when starting a team.

 

And Williams' career FT% is also higher than Shaq's best year.

 

I'm also not sure that "prime LA" Shaq is as good on defense (for today's NBA) as Williams.  I don't think he's as good defending on the perimeter or as a help defender.  I don't think he's as mobile.

 

I'm not saying that Shaq wouldn't be better than Robert Williams.  He would.  But even if he's much better than Robert Williams that doesn't make him clearly better than Embiid and Jokic.  And Steve is saying you have to take Shaq.  With today's NBA, give me Jokic and some people that can cut and move and shoot I'm not sure that you don't make Shaq irrelevant on defense and offense you are trading 3 for 2 and 3 for 1 a lot.

Edited June 29, 2022 by PeterMP

[Ball Security]

Nine figures for Jalen Brunson?  I don’t know about that.  He was great last year on such a small contract.  But paying a guy 27.5M for a guy who’s never averaged 17 points a game?

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

3 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

Why does Williams' shooting percentage matter?  He's never even the Celtics 3rd option on offense and we're comparing him to 2 of the best players in NBA?  Williams could be 4X the offensive player that he is and nobody would still take him over Embiid or Jocik when starting a team.

 

And Williams' career FT% is also higher than Shaq's best year.

 

I'm also not sure that "prime LA" Shaq is as good on defense (for today's NBA) as Williams.  I don't think he's as good defending on the perimeter or as a help defender.  I don't think he's as mobile.

 

I'm not saying that Shaq wouldn't be better than Robert Williams.  He would.  But even if he's much better than Robert Williams that doesn't make him clearly better than Embiid and Jokic.  And Steve is saying you have to take Shaq.  With today's NBA, give me Jokic and some people that can cut and move and shoot I'm not sure that you don't make Shaq irrelevant on defense and offense you are trading 3 for 2 and 3 for 1 a lot.

Because Shaq would average 30 with the same shooting percentage. Robert Williams points were all offensive rebounds putbacks or alley oops. Shaq could easily do that and better. Better jumper, longer, and more skilled. If you have Shaq averaging 30 on 75% from the field, he is warping defenses the same way Curry does from 3. You are going to have to send 2 or 3 guys and Shaq is a capable enough passer to give it to the open man. Plus we aren’t even mentioning Shaq getting the other team into foul trouble. No one in the league right now could stop Shaq 1 on 1. He’ll no one ever. 
 

he isn’t as good defensively on the perimeter but he doesn’t have to be. He would absolutely crush it rebounding on both ends and no one could do anything. Williams physically outmatched Green so much at times it was embarrassing. Shaq would obliterate Green. 
 

you can also use all the advance metrics but from what I see, there’s no way Jokic is a significantly better defender than Shaq and I’ll take Shaq to get me a rebound over Jokic too. Shaq did average 33 and 15.8 in the finals. Jokic averaged 31 and 13.2 against the Warriors, a warriors team that is a favorable match up for Jokic due to no big man on our team. 

 

Tiring out Shaq is the same thing people try to say about attacking Curry on defense and tiring him out. It’s easier said then done, and Shaq/Curry will put on so much pressure the opposing defense is going to tire out too. 

[PeterMP]

3 hours ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

Because Shaq would average 30 with the same shooting percentage. Robert Williams points were all offensive rebounds putbacks or alley oops. Shaq could easily do that and better. Better jumper, longer, and more skilled. If you have Shaq averaging 30 on 75% from the field, he is warping defenses the same way Curry does from 3. You are going to have to send 2 or 3 guys and Shaq is a capable enough passer to give it to the open man. Plus we aren’t even mentioning Shaq getting the other team into foul trouble. No one in the league right now could stop Shaq 1 on 1. He’ll no one ever. 

 

Embiid and Jokic are AT LEAST as good post-defenders as the average center in Shaq's prime.

 

And in his prime Shaq didn't regularly have games with 30 points on 75% shooting against the worse centers in the league.

 

Are you really saying that Shaq would do better against the best centers in this era than he did against the worse centers when he played?

 

Shaq was a very good offensive rebounder in his day (e. g. in 1999 he had 4.3 ORBs per a game, tied with Elton Brand for the league lead which I believe is his highest ranking), but it isn't like he was head and shoulders above everybody else in the league (he tied Elton Brand in his highest rated year).  It is hard to believe that now he's going to come in an easily dominate the best centers in the league on the boards.  And 4.3 is his average so sort of what you'd expect him to do against an average player.  His best year is 4.7 ORBs/game but he's behind Rodman for the league lead and that's when is 21 and still in Orlando.

 

It isn't like Embiid and Jokic are small guys even by the standards of the guys that Shaq was playing against.  Vin Baker was the starting 5 on a good Seattle team in that era.

 

I'm sorry, but the idea that Shaq would somehow dominate the best centers today in a way that he didn't dominate the worse or even average centers during his career just isn't credible.  You are making Shaq into something he never was.

 

And just generally a player at the basket can't warp the defense a way the 3 point shooter does for two reasons:

 

1.  The 3 point shooter is warping over a larger area (anywhere along the 3 point line).  Somebody at the basket only warps in the direction of the basket.

 

2.  Because of the importance of shots close to the basket and rebounds warping away from the basket has more value.  When you bend the defense to the basket, you clog up the paint for the other players.

Edited June 29, 2022 by PeterMP